The Return of Christ Within

[dancing]

Oh yeah!!!

A big HI!!! to Kellie!!!!

One day we will meet you and Todd.

Better give me some time to cry a while though,

when we first see each other face to face.

Love Always and Forever

Edited June 18, 2006 by dancing

[allan w.]

Welcome_to_your_control_panel.htm

They say one can know a man (or woman) by the way they handle their anger.

[sirguessalot]

who is this mysterious they, allan?

and how do you know i am not using angry words without being angry?

did saint Paul use angry words at times?

did Jesus the Christ use angry words at times?

Mark 3:5

And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts...

Eph 4:26

Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath

Tit 1:7

For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Edited June 18, 2006 by sirguessalot

[sirguessalot]

harrasment refers to a wide spectrum of offensive behavior. When the term is used in a legal sense it refers to behaviours that are found threatening or disturbing, and beyond those that are sanctioned by society. In societies which support free speech, only the more repetitive, persistent and untruthful types of speech qualify legally as harassment.

cyber-bullying is the use of electronic information and communication devices such as e-mail, instant messaging, text messages, Blogs, mobile phones, pagers, Instant messages and defamatory websites to bully or otherwise harass an individual or group through personal attacks or other means, and it may constitute a computer crime. Cyberbullying is willful and repeated harm inflicted through the medium of electronic text. Like bullying, cyberbullying involves recurring harm and can be distinguished from peer harassment as a subset of aggressive behavior because bullying represents a pattern of behavior committed over a period of time.

Jerk is sarcastic, mean, unforgiving and never misses an opportunity to make a cutting remark. Jerk's repulsive personality quickly alienates other Warriors, and after some initial skirmishing he is usually ostracized. Still, Jerk is very happy to participate in electronic forums because in cyberspace he is free to be himself...without the risk of getting a real-time punch in the mouth

A profanity (or "swear word", or "curse word", or "foul language") is a word, expression, or other usage which is generally considered insulting, rude or vulgar. The extent to which a profanity is considered to be in some way disagreeable or objectionable depends on context, timing and various other factors. However, the use of certain profanities at certain times, especially in a public setting or during a solemn occasion, will always be considered inappropriate or in bad taste, if not clearly abusive, obscene or offensive. At other times the use of certain profanities will be considered mild or acceptable, and may take less recognizable forms, such as a minced oath. The original meaning of the term was restricted to blasphemy, sacrilege or speaking God's name in vain. However, the term has been extended to include expressions with scatological, sexist, derogatory, racist, or sexual themes.

Edited June 18, 2006 by sirguessalot

[allan w.]

Justify what you typed all you want Todd ! I may post a number of differn't things and replies and remarks but I have never, ever told anyone to shut their freakin' mouths. I left that crap behind me in New Knoxville.

Now it seems that type of behavior is being mirrored from a little town called Bend.

The only time I see behavior like yours these days is from over-zealous cult leader wannabes.

Come on 'Tom', rationalise and defend his pm to me.

Kellie..is this what your 'man' is like when YOU get him upset.

All you 'Sacred Art of Living centre' people and anamcara 'apprentices'...is this how you are treated during your apprenticeship years if you 'disagree' with any of their 'doctrine'

And while I'm at it Todd...I went onto your ministries website. I find JESUS CHRIST is disturbingly missing in it's core beliefs, but then sometimes what is not said speaks ten thousand words, ay.

[sirguessalot]

for the record

as long as Allan continues to harrass and insinuate cult-like behavior on a public ex-cult message board

where there is no cult-like behavior (except inside allan's uninformed heart and mind)

i will continue to demand that he shut his mouth

and i will do so without apology

he has freely admitted that he is an foot,

and has openly admitted that he thinks most people on this forum are as well

now, i am sure he is ultimately driven by something good, as we all are

but the good is obviously presently buried under a lot of other nastiness

and sure, i could simply stop "feeding the troll," as they say

but i really dont think he would go away

he just shows up whever i post now

like a dog humping my leg

he attacks my character

attacks the character of my friend

and has moved on to include the work i am involved in

and is now including my wife in his remarks

even the city i live in

not that any of it is true

but not everyone who reads these message boards are aware of his patterns

he knows little to nothing about cult behaviour

yet professes to know a cult when he sees one

and he does not accept new information when given it

yet continues to post the same misinformation

and due to the content of his posts

i find it almost impossible to post around his constant off-topic interruptions and personal attacks

and the only way i can think of to personally avoid his disruptive behaviour

is to stop posting here altogether

which is what i think he wants

which really sucks

though he will most likely just find someone else to leech onto and harrass

he is on a mission, remember?

i think he has and continues to blatantly break the forum rules

i as much as it might suck, i think the gsc mods should ban him from posting

and i have requested that they do

especially if he starts including my wife in his remarks

and our relationship

and her work place

and for the record

just because Allen can't find Christ somewhere

does not mean it is not there

remember what he said:

to Allan: "Must be nice not to have to think about what one believes"

from Allan: "Yeah it is actually...kind of peaceful in an undisturbed believing sort of a way."

Edited June 18, 2006 by sirguessalot

[sirguessalot]

some interesting word searches for the topic at hand

within

inward

inner

Edited June 18, 2006 by sirguessalot

[dancing]

Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things

I've seen nothing but good from sirguessalot

and nothing but evil from allan

[sirguessalot]

is this how you are treated during your apprenticeship years if you 'disagree' with any of their 'doctrine'

For starters, Allan does not merely disagree with doctrine

he vilifies and irritates and pokes and pokes and pokes at what he does not understand

and he does it without even thinking much about it first

in fact, i dont even think he reads or comprehends everything he criticizes

so there is no comparison there, whatsoever

but most plainly...the answer to his "question/suggestion" is a loud NO

everyone i work with are mature adults and competant professionals

who know how to more-or-less disagree constructively and explore the reasons for their disagreements

and are able to believe a wide variety of different things without hating and fearing each other

and if they were on a forum like this

they could easily do so without resorting to forum vandalism and hypertextual territorial pi$$ing

and the obnoxious drive-by graffiti postings

there would be no need to demand that someone shuts up and stops speaking falsely

heck, there are arts and sciences to interfaith dialogue that millions and millions of people use on this planet

...which reminds me...i even recently tried to start another thread about it once

but i recall that it went down in flames pretty darn quick

hm

:blink:

Edited June 18, 2006 by sirguessalot

[dancing]

Back to the subject-

Colossians 1

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

7As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;

8Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

9For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

10That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

11Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Colossians 2

1For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Colossians 3

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

7In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

18Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

19Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

20Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

21Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

22Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;

23And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

24Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

25But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Colossians 4

1Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

2Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;

3Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

4That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.

5Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.

6Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

7All my state shall Tychicus declare unto you, who is a beloved brother, and a faithful minister and fellowservant in the Lord:

8Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that he might know your estate, and comfort your hearts;

9With Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They shall make known unto you all things which are done here.

10Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him;)

11And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.

12Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

13For I bear him record, that he hath a great zeal for you, and them that are in Laodicea, and them in Hierapolis.

14Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

15Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

16And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

17And say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord, that thou fulfil it.

18The salutation by the hand of me Paul. Remember my bonds. Grace be with you. Amen.

[Tom]

Romans 8:24  For we are saved by [by, to, or in] hope...

It is the hope that will make us whole - inside & out.

Romans 8:26  ¶In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses...

The Spirit in the same way - in what same way? In the same way as the hope.

The Spirit does what like the hope?

also helps our weaknesses: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Just like the hope will make us whole, so the Spirit doing is the hope making us whole now because Christ in you IS the hope.

And He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit's mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God.

The intercession of the Spirit is a heart (inside) thing. It is the hope of glory straight from the mind of God to our hearts - now.

I believe the rest of Romans chapter 8 swings on the truth that intercession brings our hope of wholeness, the glorified Jesus Christ, into our heart lives now...

Because whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, and whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified.

All the way through to being more than conquerors. It is the hope coming into our lives now through spiritual intercession.

Chapters 9 - 11 are a parenthesis, so that we may read chapter 12 as continuing on from the end of 8.

Romans 12:1  Therefore...

What's the "therefore" there for? It refers to energizing of the spiritual intercession of chapter 8 which brings Christ in you, the hope of glory into your lives now.

...I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God...

It is the mercies of God that intercession brings the hope into our lives now helping the weakness of our flesh that doesn't even know what to pray for in the things which beset us.

... to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.  Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God.

The renewing of the mind is acknowledging that spiritual intercession enables the hope of glory to live in our hearts now, that God via the spirit can do for us and in us what we cannot do for ourselves.

It transforms us.

It is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God happening.

It is the measure of faith.

The rest of chapter 12 goes from that basis into the functioning of the members of the one body overcoming evil with good, and from Romans, we go into the rest of the church epistles - ALL swinging on the hope coming into the inner life of our hearts through the spiritual intercession of Christ there.

Overcome evil with the good that God works in your heart through Christ's life there, for we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.

So, carry on,

Tom

Edited June 18, 2006 by Tom

[dancing]

Just to hear you talk Tom is a comfort to my soul. And not to take away anything that you said but that you have the guts to speak.

Edited June 18, 2006 by dancing

[Tom]

Just to hear you talk Tom is a comfort to my soul. And not to take away anything that you said but that you have the guts to speak.

Thank you, dancer. Then the day has started out well.

[sirguessalot]

thanks, Tom

i will have to read and reread your musings a few times

but i think it will be well worth it

something that some more heady readers might be interested in

as it pertains to stages of ego development

which i think is directly related to this topic of an "inner arrival" of our "divine inheritance"

amd something worthy of comparing (loosely) to the "first seven messages" of the Book of Revelation

Loevinger's stages of ego development

(highlighted in blue to point to thread relevance)

Infancy

Presocial

No ego

Not Differentiated from the World

Symbiotic

Self-Nonself Differentiation

Stability of Objects

Impulsive

Curbed by Restraints, Rewards & Punishments

Others are Seen as What They Can Give

"Nice to Me" or "Mean to Me"

Present-Centred

Physical but not Psychological Causation

Self-Protective

Anticipates Rewards & Punishments

First Self-Control

"Don’t Get Caught"

Externalize Blame

Opportunistic Hedonism

Conformist

Take in Rules of the Group

No Self Apart from Others

Other’s Disapproval is Sanction

Not Only Fear of Punishment

Rules and Norms not Distinguished

Rejects Out-Group

Stereotypes Roles

Security = Belonging

Behaviours Judged Externally not by Intentions

Self-Aware

Self Distinct from Norms & Expectations

First Inner Life

Banal Feelings Always in Reference to Others

Pseudo-Trait Conceptions

Modal Stage of Adults

Conscientious

Goals and Ideals

Sense of Responsibility

Rules are Internalized

Guilt is From Hurting Another, not Breaking Rules

Having Self Apart from Group

Standards are Self-Chosen

Traits are Part of Rich Interior World

Standards Distinguished from Manners

Motives and not Just Actions

Sees Self from Other Point of View

Individualistic

Distancing from Role Identities

Subjective Experience as Opposed to Objective Reality

Greater Tolerance of Self & Others

Relationships Cause Dependency

Awareness of Inner Conflict

Inner Reality Vs. Outward Appearance

Psychological Causality and Development

Autonomous

Inner Conflicts of Needs Vs Duties

Polarity, Complexity, Multiple Facets

Integrate Ideas

Tolerate Ambiguity

Freeing from Conscience

Concern for Emotional Interdependence

Integrates Different Identities

Self-Fulfillment

How They Function in Different Roles

Integrated

Transcendence of Conflicts

Self-Actualizing

Fully Worked Out Identity

...

note: this is just one summation of one map among many

and there have been stages identified that are even beyond this

in both religious and scientific thought

for further comparisons, check out the 3 "See alsos" at the bottom of the wiki article

Edited June 19, 2006 by sirguessalot

[sirguessalot]

another one: Fowler's Stages of Faith Development

Stage one – "Intuitive-Projective" faith (ages of three to seven), and is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious.

Stage two – "Mythic-Literal" faith (mostly in school children), stage two persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their cosmic powers are almost always anthropomorphic.

Stage three - "Sythetic-Conventional" faith (arising in adolescence) characterized by conformity

Stage four – "Individuative-Reflective" faith (usually mid-thirties to early forties) a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for their beliefs and feelings.

Stage five – "Conjunctive" faith acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems

Stage six – "Universalizing" faith, or what some might call, enlightenment.

again, by no means complete, but worth comparing spiritual with spiritual

[sirguessalot]

i believe that regardless of what book or map or model or language we prefer,

the truth of the nature of Christ is beyond the limits of what books or languages can describe

though completely includes them, as well

but whatever inward discipline or path that someone finds to simply deepen their own self awareness,

whatever is found that truly opens, unfolds, cultivates, unpacks, unwraps all the layers of what is already there

(as well as to build new structures of faith that grow up around the previous)...

...it is literally the narrowest path you or i could possibly find

simply for being within, as opposed to being without

the math seems obvious

because within you, is the closest thing you could possibly find to your self,

and is the most direct route to your "audience chamber of God"

as the scriptures seem to say...there are countless paths to outer darkness and destruction

but there is only one direction IN...for each and every one

and without a doubt...God and Christ are also already always there

or they are simply not as universal and timeless as we or scriptures claim

"turn and see" is the same old invitation

and i dont think it means to turn your physical body, or your physical head

...

but in the end, the result of cultivating the "arrival" of Christ within

is NOT about being self-absorbed, and merely self-aware

...but about being of increasingly greater service to all others

from finally having your self exposed for what it is...beyond theory

and from finally having removed the ego from the throne

and in a way that is beyond lip-service or other outward claims

i would even go as far to say that if our inward journey does not result in a realization that

we are on this earth to be in service to others

we are simply not done yet (and, of course, we are never really done, anyway)

but can you imagine what the world would look like if everyone you met lived in service to you? and you to them?

and that this attitude came from a genuine, authentic place of love from deep within?

(rather than fear, or hate, or ignorance as to the actual texture of one's own deepest drives and motivations)

of course, looking around at the world, and all the new ways of being crazy that have arisen

as well as the long and savage histories we all come from...

...its no wonder so many of us want someone very powerful to come from the sky and save the world

someone to literally come down and force universal goodness and justice upon us

i dont blame anyone for wanting that...i do, too

especially when that is the only form of hope we can find and hold onto in the surrounding madness

in one sense, we all need some sense of hope, or we are hopeless

but what if hope is also something that unfolds and expands and deepens?

and in a way that includes all previous hopes, but takes them even further?

(much like what Roy is pointing at with this: The Many Hopes

...

if Christ aint "coming back" til he comes back in us,

then it puts the burden directly on our shoulders

no, not to change the world

but to change yourself

and make him appear

in doing so, the world will never be the same

but if and when we resist shining light on the darkness within

the whole world suffers a little bit more

for we simply know not what or why we do what we do

...which, of course, is as forgiveable as ever

Edited June 19, 2006 by sirguessalot

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Todd and all

God loves us all my dear friends

What a great subject "The Return of Christ Within"

Why talking about the return of Christ maybe I can add

Christ has come back and is coming back

Christ came to be foretold about in Gen 3 but Christ came to be promise about before the beginning

Christ came as a seed in Mary then Christ came out as a baby then Christ grew into a boy then a man of God

Then Christ came to the place to be killed

Then Christ came to see fleshly death

Then Christ was born into spiritual life

Then Christ went down to the grave to lead the dead waiting for the first coming of Christ and lead them up out of the grave

Then Christ came to earth to walk and be seen

Then Christ went up in the air to meet Moses and Elias there where ever there is

Then Christ came back on the day of pentcost to inner the hearts of mankind

Now Christ comes to place seed of holy spirit in all that believe on him

Then as the ones that believed on Christ die Christ comes back to lead them into the light

Christ came to plant himself in us and he is coming back for the day of birth

But all days of birth are personal days and the apostels of old did see Christ come back in like matter at their death about 2,000 years ago

I say past and present both happen at the same time and that Christ has come back and is coming back

but has for the finile return of Christ its still coming but the question is will I done be home or will that be the hour I go home to the place Christ is

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[Tom]

about the nature of "the return"... i kinda wish you wouldnt have brought it up at this point, on this [should Bullies win? about troll situations] thread

Yes, that was a mistake, Todd - sorry about that - thanks for jumping in anyway. Well, so here I've moved it over here where it belongs.

Perhaps I should repost your whole reply here before I reply to your reply:

well, Tom

i wish i knew how to explain what i believe about the nature of "the return"

and i kinda wish you wouldnt have brought it up at this point, on this thread

(tho i do enjoy being asked direct questions that are not merely a set-up...deep thanks for that :))

that said...

i do believe a lot of things about the past, present and future as it pertains to Christ

and about death and life and the transitions in-between as they pertain to Christ

things that are very different than what we learned in twi, or pfal, or much of our more modern forms of christianity

and these are things i did NOT learn in the project i am involved in

nor is the project my only source of information, education and experience

but basically, i do NOT believe in a second physical arrival and rapture-like doctrines of Jesus the Christ

nor do i believe the scriptural accounts supports such a thing (unless it is forced into it)

in fact, i would go as far as to say that scripture actually warns against such ideas

and for many practical reasons

(but that is not because i dont believe in higher angelic and otherwordly levels of being, or that Jesus is literally alive right now in some sort of rainbow body...i actually believe those things wholeheartedly)

but i would even go as far as to say that such sky-god doctrines were a natural part of human evolution

and i especially wouldnt talk anyone (or their family) out of them in their dying days

they are a very important part of how we got where we are

and are very important part of the human story that is still unfolding

but too, when the world's most powerful military is in the hands of a group of paranoid people who hold that kind of rapture/armageddon ideaology with an aggressive stance...all i can say is "yowza, fasten yer friggin seatbelts"

because unless something changes, the worse kinds of war is coming in the mere name of Christ

...just as predicted

that said...i still think we have really only barely scratched the surface of all the topics related to what you have brought up

(one of which is the nature of consciousness itself, another of which is the very extreme flight from and outright denial of death and dying that we are facing in the western world today, and another of which is how even much of the post-modern world is presently immersed in a very extemely flattened view of reality, which hypocritically rejects all distinctions)

imho, there are already too many misconceptions in play to try and handle the whole topic in a quick and easy threaded conversation

and a lot of kinds of information that is simply not allowed

and so there are a lot of words in play that are loaded with personal baggage....which means we are more-or-less working from many different inward dictionaries

and unless we can learn to first at least want to talk about our interior dictionaries in a open and peaceful manner

...unless we can learn to "speak in tongues" in an effective way

...we really are going to have a hard time understanding each other at all

we are putting the proverbial cart-before-the-horse in terms of human dialogue

and until we can talk about language itself, and in way that does not immediately disintegrate into egoic reactions (which is only solved by a certain level of heart and intent shared by everyone involved), we can only throw things towards each other, desperately hoping something makes sense

linguistically...its like a fish trying to talk to a bird, who is trying to talk a dog, who is trying to talk to an ant, who is trying to talk to a tree, who is trying to talk to a rock, who is trying to talk to a passing cloud, like being trapped in babble-on without the keys of David...yada yada

which is why i prefer poetry and open-handed inquiry (and things like 'integral semiotics')

and starting and supporting threads about elevating the dialogue and engaging in heart-opening realities

of course, me saying such things might be considered offensive and arrogant to some

but im not sure how else to say it

in this sense, i feel i am still quite lost

suggestions?

For purposes of my reply, I'm going to chop up your post, so that I can address aspects in an order that seems to work. I'm sort of starting at the end with some things that fly in the face of some of what you said about linguistics and working backwards, but give me a listen, & I think I will soon mitigate some of your linguistic concerns.

suggestions?

Communicate as simply and directly as you can. When you can, give up talking about what you believe; state your belief. In any case, don't talk about anything other than what you believe; for example, "about language itself." I love your poetic sense, and I find your open-handed inquiry extremely engaging and effective, BUT there is a place for everything. And for the purpose of communicating what you believe about the return, these staples of your linguistic arsenal leave you feeling "still quite lost." You understand "integral semiotics." Don't talk about integral semiotics; utilize what you know about it. You know more about what terms mean to the readers on this forum (signifieds, many of them shared) than almost any other human being alive, and you have extremely high verbal acquity. I believe you can positively state (sans what it is not - sans poetic imagery) what you believe about the nature of the return of Christ in as manner that will communicate.

Sure we've only begun to scratch the surface. Sure people will misinterpret what you say. The truths of the Word are refined within a whole lot of text, & people still misinterpret them. Even if we understood the whole Word texturally, heartwise, via the spirit - we'd still only know a very small portion of the nature of the return of Christ but we can still communicate simply.

I don't mean to negate your concerns that the various signifieds in the minds of readers on this forum might preclude what your trying to get across and engender confusion and strife. That's a real concern.

Hey, PM me. I'd enjoy an open discussion with you about Christ's "rainbow" body.

You ARE going to have to communicate it you know - at least to yourself.

What do you say?

Love ya, brother

Edited July 6, 2006 by Tom

[allan w.]

Well, you got your answer about Todds' beliefs on at least the physical return of Christ for/and the gathering together Tom. Now you want to edit and chop the posts up ??!!

And don't apologize for putting Todd on the spot. "Sanctify the Lord God in your heart and be ready always to give an answer to every man the reason of the 'hope' that is in you with meekness and fear." 1 Peter 3:15

[dancing]

I'm not answering for Todd. He can handle himself and questions quite well.

But just exactly where are you talking about in the scriptures about a return of Christ Tom.

And to further clarify communicating, I do not believe there is a return of Christ like we were taught in the way. Some day where everyone is meeting the Lord in the air all at the same time.

There has already been many gathering togethers, there is now and will be more in the future. So in one sense it is a continual reality to those involved, and more then once in an individuals life which is being one with God as Jesus prayed. Misinterpreted even by those involved at times. But no mistaking a meeting the Lord in the air where our spirit meets and merges with the Spirit. And both are one before during and after. This we seek as the Lord wills, honestly from the heart.

Words used to describe it are many.

Edited July 6, 2006 by dancing

[dancing]

Our Lord has written the promise of resurrection, not in books alone, but in every leaf in springtime

Martin Luther

[allan w.]

ah..I think that was an 'analogy' used by ML

[Tom]

Well, you got your answer about Todds' beliefs on at least the physical return of Christ for/and the gathering together Tom. Now you want to edit and chop the posts up ??!!

Yes, I got my answer on what Todd believes about the physical return of Christ, "basically" that he does NOT believe in a physical return.

BUT I want to know what he DOES believe about the return, as he said, "about death and life and the transitions in-between as they pertain to Christ," and about what Todd does believe "wholeheartedly" about Jesus...[being] literally alive right now in some sort of "rainbow [and what this poetic imagery really means - literally - to Todd] body."

AND I understand his concern that many people on this forum have preconceived ideas about the return that would make it impossible for them to gain the intended significance of any expression Todd might offer on the subject- resulting in unprofitable argument & strife.

Even if Wierwille's expositions on the subject were entirely accurate (which arrogant claim even Wierwille never made - though he brooked no argument), much of the depth which he shared has been watered down - simplified to the point of being simplistic - simplistic to the point of innaccuracy.

So, if "basically," Todd does not believe in a physical return, what is it about a "physical" return that would not seem basically physical to us that Todd DOES believe?

Simply, I'm not now interested in what Todd does NOT believe, but in what he DOES believe.

What is Jesus Christ's "rainbow" body? Can his hands cook fish?

And don't apologize for putting Todd on the spot.

Allan, I'm not apologizing for putting Todd on the spot. I'm apologizing for bringing up the return, as Todd put it "at this point, on this [should Bullies win? about troll situations] thread," instead of on this (The Return of Christ Within) thread where it belongs. You seem to have complete disregard for being considerate about posts. You pirate posts regularly. That's inconsiderate, and it hinders conversations that people are having, not to mention any communication of the Word that people may be gaining. It is just flat unloving. Jesus never showed disregard for what was going on in the hearts of people.

That piracy is part of what makes you a Bully. It is unfortunately ironic that my post, "putting Todd on the spot" as you described it, would give you opportunity to further Bully Todd on a thread about Bullying. Todd was sensitive to that potential cannonball shot to his thread on Bullying. It is much to his credit that he opened himself to that attack and answered my question honestly there on that thread. It was a sacrifice move on Todd's part. IMO, it was an amazingly Christlike thing to do

Jesus was not about putting people on the spot, Allan; he was, and is, about making them whole - about showing them compassion (empathetic understanding) to the point that they willingly open their hearts from within, so they will express their concerns, questions, beliefs, & needs, and he can heal them. Putting people on the spot does just the opposite; it makes people defensive, it closes their hearts, it prevents healing.

"Sanctify the Lord God in your heart and be ready always to give an answer to every man the reason of the 'hope' that is in you with meekness and fear." 1 Peter 3:15

I'm highly in favor of that, Allan.

I'm just trying to give Todd a loving invitation and opportunity to do the same.

I have not set at nought the "hope" that is in his heart. I respect the "meekness and fear" with which he is trying to express it.

And I expect to learn a lot about my hope (and yours) should Todd grace me with a PM response.

Romans 14:10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Anyway, the post belonged here; that's what I was apologizing for.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Tom

[Tom]

But just exactly where are you talking about in the scriptures about a return of Christ Tom.

I'm not talking, Clay - just inviting Todd to talk - & I'm listening.

No trap or argument here.

Open,

Tom

[dancing]

Cool Tom.