Yep. Knew you were a "she" by the context of your posts.
Now, this is surely off topic, but here's the scoop(pun intended) on the stretch the coffee thing.
Many eons ago, Uncle Harry suggested we "stretch" our coffee by adding new grounds to yesterday's grounds and adding a pinch of salt to cut the bitter taste.
It tasted like----well, I think you get the idea.
So, long story made even longer, that's the history of the stretched coffee analogies.
Yep. Knew you were a "she" by the context of your posts.
Now, this is surely off topic, but here's the scoop(pun intended) on the stretch the coffee thing.
Many eons ago, Uncle Harry suggested we "stretch" our coffee by adding new grounds to yesterday's grounds and adding a pinch of salt to cut the bitter taste.
It tasted like----well, I think you get the idea.
So, long story made even longer, that's the history of the stretched coffee analogies.
May I offer you a cup of joe as a peace offering?
I swear it isn't the stretched variety! :)
I vaguely remember that reference.....and I was only trying to lighten up a little. I thought the peed in coffee was an appropriate analogy...peace
I still haven't seen my few contributions here addressed.. other than it is "too far".
How, in God's name, are we to confront those who hide from the light of day..
Maybe you haven't thought about this. See.. we are not the stinking grounds, old rotten brew.. just to be cast aside while they vainly attempt to get the next batch "right".
If you think YOUR life is worth so little.. go ahead, go away in peace..
In the case of those persons whose evil and toxic behaviors make any attempt on the part of their victims to reconcile; whether as in a marriage, a friendship, a student/teacher relationship, a boss/employee relationship , or any other variation of human interaction you can think of; will only cause new and painful hurt to the victim-- forgiveness does not mean forgetting and reconnecting.
In fact forgetting is God's responsibility, it is our responsibility not only to not forget but to learn from the situation and be able to identify other dangerous and toxic individuals, before we interact with them, based on what we remember and learned from the previous situations.
Forgiveness does not require that we not mention to others, who we see about to interact or interacting with the offenders, our experiences. Forgiveness does not require that we not call a plagerist a plagerist, a rapist a rapist, or a pediophile a pediophile. People are what they are--trying to pretend that they aren't what they are, under the covering of forgiving, is not forgiveness, it is lying. Failure to warn others about toxic persons, by citing examples of their behavior you know to be true, is a failure in your duty as a Christian to look out for your brothers and sisters.
Jesus Christ gave the example of the correct way to forgive those who wrong you. Hanging on the cross He said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
What Christ DID NOT say is
"Father I forgive them for what they are doing"
And there is nowhere in scripture where the apostles were exhorted to forget what happened on Calvary or to declare that Judas, Herod, or Pilate were anything other than what they knew them to be.
Forgiveness is about asking that vengence not be taken on the wrongdoer. Since, per Heavenly Father, "Vengence is mine" He is the only one who can forstay vengence. He forstays vengence when those who have done wrong
Repent, and turn with meekness to Him and abstain from wrongdoing in the future
OR
He is asked by the victim to forgive their tormentor, thus showing that they, the victim, are not only forgiving but worthy of forgiveness themselves.
OR
a combination of the above.
For anyone to presume that a poster at GSC has not forgiven or will not forgive simply because they hold forth the truth regarding an individual and the situations surrounding that individual, is IMO the height of presumption. Name calling is an action committed by a person calling others by adverbs or adjectives that by their nature portray what is untrue, or for the purpose of being mean spirited. Calling someone what their actions have shown them to be, on the other hand is called telling the truth.
I still haven't seen my few contributions here addressed.. other than it is "too far".
How, in God's name, are we to confront those who hide from the light of day..
Maybe you haven't thought about this. See.. we are not the stinking grounds, old rotten brew.. just to be cast aside while they vainly attempt to get the next batch "right".
If you think YOUR life is worth so little.. go ahead, go away in peace..
Grow up
In the case of those persons whose evil and toxic behaviors make any attempt on the part of their victims to reconcile; whether as in a marriage, a friendship, a student/teacher relationship, a boss/employee relationship , or any other variation of human interaction you can think of; will only cause new and painful hurt to the victim-- forgiveness does not mean forgetting and reconnecting.
In fact forgetting is God's responsibility, it is our responsibility not only to not forget but to learn from the situation and be able to identify other dangerous and toxic individuals, before we interact with them, based on what we remember and learned from the previous situations.
Forgiveness does not require that we not mention to others, who we see about to interact or interacting with the offenders, our experiences. Forgiveness does not require that we not call a plagerist a plagerist, a rapist a rapist, or a pediophile a pediophile. People are what they are--trying to pretend that they aren't what they are, under the covering of forgiving, is not forgiveness, it is lying. Failure to warn others about toxic persons, by citing examples of their behavior you know to be true, is a failure in your duty as a Christian to look out for your brothers and sisters.
Jesus Christ gave the example of the correct way to forgive those who wrong you. Hanging on the cross He said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
What Christ DID NOT say is
"Father I forgive them for what they are doing"
And there is nowhere in scripture where the apostles were exhorted to forget what happened on Calvary or to declare that Judas, Herod, or Pilate were anything other than what they knew them to be.
Forgiveness is about asking that vengence not be taken on the wrongdoer. Since, per Heavenly Father, "Vengence is mine" He is the only one who can forstay vengence. He forstays vengence when those who have done wrong
Repent, and turn with meekness to Him and abstain from wrongdoing in the future
OR
He is asked by the victim to forgive their tormentor, thus showing that they, the victim, are not only forgiving but worthy of forgiveness themselves.
OR
a combination of the above.
For anyone to presume that a poster at GSC has not forgiven or will not forgive simply because they hold forth the truth regarding an individual and the situations surrounding that individual, is IMO the height of presumption. Name calling is an action committed by a person calling others by adverbs or adjectives that by their nature portray what is untrue, or for the purpose of being mean spirited. Calling someone what their actions have shown them to be, on the other hand is called telling the truth.
ok I get the point .......relax its not good for you to get all worked up
ok I get the point .......relax its not good for you to get all worked up
Annam - I've been reading your posts for a while now. I haven't responded because I can't seem to figure out where you're coming from.
Do you even want any of the posters here to respond to you? I may not be reading you correctly, but it sounds like you want to have your say and have it at that? In a sense, you want to make a point and then have it understood as you meant it.
I'm not judging here, nor am I calling you on the carpet.
If you feel you've answered these questions and made your points - then don't respond to this post. That way you won't feel like you're wasting your time.
My bad, I assumed that you desired interaction. I guess that I don`t understand what makes you think that it is all right to treat people this way, particularly if one views themselves as a christian.
I ought to have recognised the arrogance and nasty behavior of one still contaminated by twi doctrine.
It's ok- Annam doesn't recognize she's being arrogant and nasty either.
You're presuming he cares about intelligent discussions.
He got to make his declarations, and when intelligent discussions-including disagreements-
were offered, he just labelled them and began tossing out insults and jokes.
Seems his interest in "discussion" ends there.
where were the insults......I see the joke ....did I call u stupid or ignorant, or pigheaded or infantile or ridiculous or foolish ? Naw I never insulted I just spoke the truth and you couldn't take it so you got mad..... There how's that for insulting?
Ok, here's the insults, all from posts from annam on this very thread.....
Jun 8 2007, 12:46 PM
"I hope for the best for you all that keep this endless worthless babel going...... as for me I can't see the profit and I'll say Good bye and good luck..."
annam didn't see the profit in this discussion, so immediately labelled it
"WORTHLESS BABBLE" rather than even ask if it HAD profit she wasn't aware of.
In the process, she "necro'ed" a thread with no activity on it for 2 months,
saying "this thread is worthless" but choosing to revive it just to make that pronouncement.
Obviously making that statement was important enough to re-open a discussion.
(This is not WRONG but indicates the subject darn well DOES matter to the poster,
which means they themselves are declaring it is NOT "worthless" in the process.
---------------
Jun 11 2007, 04:26 PM
"I am sorry that I offended some of you , Thats not my intention , nor is it my intention to judge anyone here for being here."
"I have looked around and for the most part what stands out is what I have commented on the underlying current seems to be angry and gossipy"
"I doubt anyone can find a reason for this kind of continuous forum... I can see this site is exclusive and those with my opinion are not welcome here, how is that unlike how we were in the way? Not much......"
There's an apology there, which is a good thing, but there's a pronouncement that she didn't intend to judge anyone,
followed by some judgements.
"angry and gossipy", plus this forum-which has a LOT of activity across a number of years- has NO REASON to exist.
Further, despite not having been banned-and allowed to post alongside other people who disagree with the majority of
the posters here- she announces that we're "exclusive" and she's "not welcome" despite not having been run off.
That's contradictory, and more a sign of PASSING JUDGEMENT than seeing if experience is matching expectations.
----------------
There were some responses, some quite nice and reasonable.
Then annam responded again.
Jun 12 2007, 11:40 AM
"the back lash is almost comical ... caustic is so endearing"
"not a one of you has any defense for your offense.... rock on with your mean selves"
annam has also refused to explain what "offense" she perceives- but continues to pronounce
that it's being offered, which does nothing to AFFECT it, but allows the pronouncer to feel and look
holy for pointing a finger at other posters and finding fault.
--------------------------
Jun 20 2007, 01:31 AM
"humble is the least of your endearing attributes."
----------------
Jun 20 2007, 01:49 AM
"My point from the beginning .(if anyone has bothered to listen), has been this.........God gave his word so we could have instruction in everything...right? what is spoken of here is mostly against Gods instruction.....read the book kids..
It doesn't take a genius to understand . "
annam seems to think this explains what she's so worked up about, and clearly indicates
what she's offended about OBVIOUSLY would offend Jesus, but despite the condescending tone,
has failed to get specific. Apparently, the idea that anyone is warning others of evil deeds of twi and
members and leaders in the past AND PRESENT is objectionable to annam,
but how this ties into Jesus is ASSUMED by annam and not EXPLAINED.
However, she has no problem suggesting we can either AGREE with her
or lack intelligence.
"It doesn't take a genius to understand."
annam seems to indicate the ONLY "godly" response to people performing evil is NOT to warn others to
steer clear of them-as is common at the GSC-
but the ONLY "godly" response is to
"Go confront these bad way people in person, that would at least be more like Christ."
Of course, that means traveling across the country to go to a place that uses armed personnel on grounds
to police itself and deal with trespassers. Have a chance to speak to the offenders? No,
you'd be kicked off grounds and shot if you persisted, no matter how many verses you quoted directly.
annam refuses to admit this is what happens, of course. This doesn't fit with her world-view,
so it must not happen. I imagine a response would be something like if I thought they'd shoot
and it was useless to confront them ad infinitum over the evils, then I would be making God a liar
or some other "you can agree with me or defy God" witticism popular in twi/extwi circles at times.
-------------------
Jun 20 2007, 09:47 PM
"you might be nuts biglaugh.gif"
"your crazy too rolleyes.gif"
Those were in response to 2 reasonable, inoffensive posts to annam.
-------------------
Jun 20 2007, 09:53 PM
"Heres a thought ...everyone is all up in arms about my being offended or an offense, saying "we all have our own opinions and" we should be tolerant of each others,......guess what ? Take your own advice people, if your so right then what are you all upset about.......and who the hell cares if you are.....so far I have stated my opinion and you alllllll have chopped it to bits.. talk about way heads. realmad.gif"
annam doesn't see the difference between reasoned discussion (e.g."we disagree and here's why")
with personal attacks (e.g."you walk in error and your mother dresses you funny!")
annam doesn't see the difference between open discussion, disagreements, and often agreements HERE
with the "you must agree with everything the leader says" at twi.
That's poor reasoning skills in action, but what can one do about that?
We tried being polite and reasonable- the only ACCEPTABLE response to annam seems to be
wildly embracing her viewpoint.
Now, THERE you can "talk about way heads."
------------------
Then there was a run of jokes of questionable quality in a few directions,
which didn't add to the discussion, but may or may not have been meant purely in humour.
That's when I said (June 21, 01:37 AM)
"You're presuming he cares about intelligent discussions.
He got to make his declarations, and when intelligent discussions-including disagreements-
were offered, he just labelled them and began tossing out insults and jokes.
Seems his interest in "discussion" ends there."
There had been a number of posts disagreeing intelligently, and annam was fine with
replying by pronouncing disagreeing with her as unprofitable and "worthless babble", "gossipy",
"comical", to call people "nuts" or "crazy", and "way heads."
annam's reply, again was
"where were the insults......I see the joke ....did I call u stupid or ignorant, or pigheaded or infantile or ridiculous or foolish ? Naw I never insulted I just spoke the truth and you couldn't take it so you got mad..... There how's that for insulting? nono5.gif"
Well, annam, the insults included calling the posts "worthless babble" and "gossip", and the
posters "comical", "nuts", "crazy" and "way heads."
You suggested those of us who disagreed WERE stupid or ignorant
("It doesn't take a genius to understand")
and suggested-using different words but expressing the same concept-
that those of us who disagreed with you WERE
pigheaded, infantile, ridiculous or foolish.
You insulted several times, but missed when you were doing it because you were busy
being superior to those you were replying to.
"I just spoke the truth"
No, you spoke your opinion, claimed it matched Scripture, and failed to demonstrate it.
"you couldn't take it so you got mad"
No, I certainly didn't have emotion-this is too common and too sad for me to get emotional about it.
We DID intelligently disagree and explain our positions,
and explain how your position did not follow from your claim of Scripture.
Naturally, you didn't consider we may have intelligent, logical, Scripture-matching
points to make-you were too busy pronouncing judgement on us and our posts.
"There, how's that for insulting?"
Yes, it's insulting, and it matches your posts so far, despite your claims of not having offered
insult while you were insulting us.
You can certainly post here, but when you're busy focusing on insults, few will agree,
and when you post AT people rather than dialogue with them, you post ANTAGONISTICALLY.
Due to extensive exposure to the logic-damaging world of twi,
YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT EVEN AWARE YOU DID ANY OF THIS.
However, those WERE your words, you DID post them.
If it were me, I'd give a good long think as to whether I was sending the message I MEANT to send,
instead of one I did NOT mean to send.
You, of course, are welcome to do whatever you want.
Hmm. And I thought I presented a simple question.. they run, hide from the outside world.. how on earth do you simply walk up and confront them? Wasn't my suggestion.. to confront them. Where are the details?
Maybe the suggestion is to say nothing, and just let them run free, sending out their minions to try to gather people up for the next batch of "brew"..
wonder what makes twi think the next batch is going to be any better..
It's ok- Annam doesn't recognize she's being arrogant and nasty either.
Ok, here's the insults, all from posts from annam on this very thread.....
Jun 8 2007, 12:46 PM
"I hope for the best for you all that keep this endless worthless babel going...... as for me I can't see the profit and I'll say Good bye and good luck..."
annam didn't see the profit in this discussion, so immediately labelled it
"WORTHLESS BABBLE" rather than even ask if it HAD profit she wasn't aware of.
In the process, she "necro'ed" a thread with no activity on it for 2 months,
saying "this thread is worthless" but choosing to revive it just to make that pronouncement.
Obviously making that statement was important enough to re-open a discussion.
(This is not WRONG but indicates the subject darn well DOES matter to the poster,
which means they themselves are declaring it is NOT "worthless" in the process.
---------------
Jun 11 2007, 04:26 PM
"I am sorry that I offended some of you , Thats not my intention , nor is it my intention to judge anyone here for being here."
"I have looked around and for the most part what stands out is what I have commented on the underlying current seems to be angry and gossipy"
"I doubt anyone can find a reason for this kind of continuous forum... I can see this site is exclusive and those with my opinion are not welcome here, how is that unlike how we were in the way? Not much......"
There's an apology there, which is a good thing, but there's a pronouncement that she didn't intend to judge anyone,
followed by some judgements.
"angry and gossipy", plus this forum-which has a LOT of activity across a number of years- has NO REASON to exist.
Further, despite not having been banned-and allowed to post alongside other people who disagree with the majority of
the posters here- she announces that we're "exclusive" and she's "not welcome" despite not having been run off.
That's contradictory, and more a sign of PASSING JUDGEMENT than seeing if experience is matching expectations.
----------------
There were some responses, some quite nice and reasonable.
Then annam responded again.
Jun 12 2007, 11:40 AM
"the back lash is almost comical ... caustic is so endearing"
"not a one of you has any defense for your offense.... rock on with your mean selves"
annam has also refused to explain what "offense" she perceives- but continues to pronounce
that it's being offered, which does nothing to AFFECT it, but allows the pronouncer to feel and look
holy for pointing a finger at other posters and finding fault.
--------------------------
Jun 20 2007, 01:31 AM
"humble is the least of your endearing attributes."
----------------
Jun 20 2007, 01:49 AM
"My point from the beginning .(if anyone has bothered to listen), has been this.........God gave his word so we could have instruction in everything...right? what is spoken of here is mostly against Gods instruction.....read the book kids..
It doesn't take a genius to understand . "
annam seems to think this explains what she's so worked up about, and clearly indicates
what she's offended about OBVIOUSLY would offend Jesus, but despite the condescending tone,
has failed to get specific. Apparently, the idea that anyone is warning others of evil deeds of twi and
members and leaders in the past AND PRESENT is objectionable to annam,
but how this ties into Jesus is ASSUMED by annam and not EXPLAINED.
However, she has no problem suggesting we can either AGREE with her
or lack intelligence.
"It doesn't take a genius to understand."
annam seems to indicate the ONLY "godly" response to people performing evil is NOT to warn others to
steer clear of them-as is common at the GSC-
but the ONLY "godly" response is to
"Go confront these bad way people in person, that would at least be more like Christ."
Of course, that means traveling across the country to go to a place that uses armed personnel on grounds
to police itself and deal with trespassers. Have a chance to speak to the offenders? No,
you'd be kicked off grounds and shot if you persisted, no matter how many verses you quoted directly.
annam refuses to admit this is what happens, of course. This doesn't fit with her world-view,
so it must not happen. I imagine a response would be something like if I thought they'd shoot
and it was useless to confront them ad infinitum over the evils, then I would be making God a liar
or some other "you can agree with me or defy God" witticism popular in twi/extwi circles at times.
-------------------
Jun 20 2007, 09:47 PM
"you might be nuts biglaugh.gif"
"your crazy too rolleyes.gif"
Those were in response to 2 reasonable, inoffensive posts to annam.
-------------------
Jun 20 2007, 09:53 PM
"Heres a thought ...everyone is all up in arms about my being offended or an offense, saying "we all have our own opinions and" we should be tolerant of each others,......guess what ? Take your own advice people, if your so right then what are you all upset about.......and who the hell cares if you are.....so far I have stated my opinion and you alllllll have chopped it to bits.. talk about way heads. realmad.gif"
annam doesn't see the difference between reasoned discussion (e.g."we disagree and here's why")
with personal attacks (e.g."you walk in error and your mother dresses you funny!")
annam doesn't see the difference between open discussion, disagreements, and often agreements HERE
with the "you must agree with everything the leader says" at twi.
That's poor reasoning skills in action, but what can one do about that?
We tried being polite and reasonable- the only ACCEPTABLE response to annam seems to be
wildly embracing her viewpoint.
Now, THERE you can "talk about way heads."
------------------
Then there was a run of jokes of questionable quality in a few directions,
which didn't add to the discussion, but may or may not have been meant purely in humour.
That's when I said (June 21, 01:37 AM)
"You're presuming he cares about intelligent discussions.
He got to make his declarations, and when intelligent discussions-including disagreements-
were offered, he just labelled them and began tossing out insults and jokes.
Seems his interest in "discussion" ends there."
There had been a number of posts disagreeing intelligently, and annam was fine with
replying by pronouncing disagreeing with her as unprofitable and "worthless babble", "gossipy",
"comical", to call people "nuts" or "crazy", and "way heads."
annam's reply, again was
"where were the insults......I see the joke ....did I call u stupid or ignorant, or pigheaded or infantile or ridiculous or foolish ? Naw I never insulted I just spoke the truth and you couldn't take it so you got mad..... There how's that for insulting? nono5.gif"
Well, annam, the insults included calling the posts "worthless babble" and "gossip", and the
posters "comical", "nuts", "crazy" and "way heads."
You suggested those of us who disagreed WERE stupid or ignorant
("It doesn't take a genius to understand")
and suggested-using different words but expressing the same concept-
that those of us who disagreed with you WERE
pigheaded, infantile, ridiculous or foolish.
You insulted several times, but missed when you were doing it because you were busy
being superior to those you were replying to.
"I just spoke the truth"
No, you spoke your opinion, claimed it matched Scripture, and failed to demonstrate it.
"you couldn't take it so you got mad"
No, I certainly didn't have emotion-this is too common and too sad for me to get emotional about it.
We DID intelligently disagree and explain our positions,
and explain how your position did not follow from your claim of Scripture.
Naturally, you didn't consider we may have intelligent, logical, Scripture-matching
points to make-you were too busy pronouncing judgement on us and our posts.
"There, how's that for insulting?"
Yes, it's insulting, and it matches your posts so far, despite your claims of not having offered
insult while you were insulting us.
You can certainly post here, but when you're busy focusing on insults, few will agree,
and when you post AT people rather than dialogue with them, you post ANTAGONISTICALLY.
Due to extensive exposure to the logic-damaging world of twi,
YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT EVEN AWARE YOU DID ANY OF THIS.
However, those WERE your words, you DID post them.
If it were me, I'd give a good long think as to whether I was sending the message I MEANT to send,
instead of one I did NOT mean to send.
You, of course, are welcome to do whatever you want.
WoW you have a lot of time in your hands.........pretty impressive are you a lawyer?, you should be your case is solid and by the way I was insulted in the beginning by the starter of this thread. I was giving him a taste of his own medicine, damn you people really need to lighten up............
The filthy sycophants are holed up in a briar patch where even the rabbits won't go.. still sending out emmisaries trying to hunt for some ingredients to bake the next failed cake..
HOW do you honestly suggest, that an individual confront them "as Christ would"?
You were the one to suggest it..
Perhaps the best thing we can do is keep throwing lime on the place, so people know to avoid it lest they get the "ickies".
So, I don't believe that annam has ever given an answer to one of the points brought up in one of the earliest posts on this thread namely;
Why, annam did you go diging through the past topics to resurrect a thread 2 months dead to object too?? Would it not have been easier to just start a new topic??
Yes , I am asking an irrelevant question, if you consider its importance in the grand scheme of things , but your motivations interest me.
i stand dissected and i guess corrected--- by WORDWOLF
you seem to have an attitude that it is SOOOO important to use every word exactly correctly and quote the right person the right way.....we know where you got your training, so when you complain about the way, look in a mirror, your alot like them, my statements were vague and i didn't go and look up exactly which person said what first......ie my point was the way taught some good stuff and alot of it was from outside the way and the way sold books by bullinger and bishop pallai and others so they weren't hiding the fact that these others had brought their areas of expertise to the table.
AND i know i am talking about the way i saw from 1979 to 1985, i cannot of course speak to after that. but i was a part of it for the last years of VPW and left before he passed. i know what i heard and saw, i know what was practiced by my friends, and it was GOOD. when i moved to iowa and had an intrim corps girl in charge of about 4 fairly mature good christians, and she taught reproof ALL THE TIME
then we moved to nashville where i heard some guy teach taht all the ethiopians were doing is wasting Oxygen unless they get saved, [[compassion at it's finest]]
soon thereafter we left, cause heartless people that obviously weren't listening to GOD and did not have HIS heart were becoming more prevelant and were being put in charge of twigs. i did not see region and state leaders be this OFF but they were putting or leaving these people in charge of twigs. i did try to go up the way tree to deal with this heartless Godless stuff and was ignored, so i concluded they weren;t much different than the twig leaders i was seeing--- heartless/Godless
oldies and i are saying that vpw had some things wrong, the biggest i see looking back is trying to do 5 things to get prayers answered--wants and needs, able and willing......the teaching was a stretch from what scripture says and means at best, but what was HORRIBLE is it really was saying we can MAKE GOD do something or keep GOD from doing something, and WE CAN't.
forget your formula, your bible and mine says ASK.
not plan and scheme, just ask. asking implies the one being asked deterimines if they are going to do what is asked of them or not. that is what asking means. and that is the word the bible uses. the deep truth of this is it shows what you think about GOD's love towards you, to ask and leave what you asked in HIS hands.
i speak in tongues, cause of the way
i heard GOd's voice and new what it was, cause of the way
i have seen people miraculously healed, most of them when i was involved with the way, some since but not as often or as miraculous
without signs miracles and wonders --- and GOD's presence voice and speaking in tongues, the way must have been very confusing and bizzarr, i feel sorry for you thatdid not get out of it what i did,
we did walk with GOD despite what might have been going on behind closed doors.
we did see healings, we did learn to study the bible and in the long run, learning how they came up with their conclusions, taught us how to study the bible ourselves and showed us we were led into truth by men instead of being led into all truth by the spirit, the way the bible says we are supposed to.
I love it feel the love baby, 'jr4jc' you are da man
without signs miracles and wonders --- and GOD's presence voice and speaking in tongues, the way must have been very confusing and bizzarre
Even with "speaking in tongues".. it was almost as bizarre as it would have been without.. maybe even more so.
Oh.. signs, wonders.. I never saw one, outside of vey definition. I actually got the front parking place at the local supermarket a couple of times.. it was a vey "wonder"..
Amazed again ......those who live by the past die by the past...........this stuff is so old and useless, since when did God say lets talk about the past until it makes people vomit and clouds their perception of the present and points their direction of the future? I could understand if the old fart were alive or If Craig was still an influence but for real folks ...its like dragging that old man around the same old mountain and crying about how much it hurts! I hope for the best for you all that keep this endless worthless babel going...... as for me I can't see the profit and I'll say Good bye and good luck because on this track your gonna need it. :
You are assuming the evil has past. The insidious doctrines, practices, and viewpoint of VPW are alive and well at TWI! As Groucho so accurately put it in post # 1 – VPW knew TWI was a personality cult – and with VPW's persona as the man of god thoroughly embedded in its legacy – there has been no diminishing of his influence.
As a former member of TWI and the Way Corps – I feel it is my Christian responsibility to expose the evil, reveal their manipulative tactics, warn others, and help those who want to rid themselves of TWI's poison. We are not dealing with a past event but an on-going menace that dominates the lives of its followers and inflicts mind-poisoning thought processes – followers are led astray to serve TWI's agenda instead of Christ. How they cloud the perception of followers and direct all efforts to ensure TWI's future is enough to make any real Christian vomit.
It didn't seem to be worthless babble for Paul to talk about false apostles and deceitful workers – encouraging believers to be discerning. There's quite a difference between the humility and attitude of service of a true Christian leader exemplified in someone like Paul and the pompous, self-assuming, arrogant, tyrannical rulership of many a TWI leader:
II Corinthians 11:1-15 NIV
1 I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
7Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
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waysider
annam
Yep. Knew you were a "she" by the context of your posts.
Now, this is surely off topic, but here's the scoop(pun intended) on the stretch the coffee thing.
Many eons ago, Uncle Harry suggested we "stretch" our coffee by adding new grounds to yesterday's grounds and adding a pinch of salt to cut the bitter taste.
It tasted like----well, I think you get the idea.
So, long story made even longer, that's the history of the stretched coffee analogies.
May I offer you a cup of joe as a peace offering?
I swear it isn't the stretched variety! :)
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annam
I vaguely remember that reference.....and I was only trying to lighten up a little. I thought the peed in coffee was an appropriate analogy...peace
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Ham
I still haven't seen my few contributions here addressed.. other than it is "too far".
How, in God's name, are we to confront those who hide from the light of day..
Maybe you haven't thought about this. See.. we are not the stinking grounds, old rotten brew.. just to be cast aside while they vainly attempt to get the next batch "right".
If you think YOUR life is worth so little.. go ahead, go away in peace..
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templelady
In the case of those persons whose evil and toxic behaviors make any attempt on the part of their victims to reconcile; whether as in a marriage, a friendship, a student/teacher relationship, a boss/employee relationship , or any other variation of human interaction you can think of; will only cause new and painful hurt to the victim-- forgiveness does not mean forgetting and reconnecting.
In fact forgetting is God's responsibility, it is our responsibility not only to not forget but to learn from the situation and be able to identify other dangerous and toxic individuals, before we interact with them, based on what we remember and learned from the previous situations.
Forgiveness does not require that we not mention to others, who we see about to interact or interacting with the offenders, our experiences. Forgiveness does not require that we not call a plagerist a plagerist, a rapist a rapist, or a pediophile a pediophile. People are what they are--trying to pretend that they aren't what they are, under the covering of forgiving, is not forgiveness, it is lying. Failure to warn others about toxic persons, by citing examples of their behavior you know to be true, is a failure in your duty as a Christian to look out for your brothers and sisters.
Jesus Christ gave the example of the correct way to forgive those who wrong you. Hanging on the cross He said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
What Christ DID NOT say is
"Father I forgive them for what they are doing"
And there is nowhere in scripture where the apostles were exhorted to forget what happened on Calvary or to declare that Judas, Herod, or Pilate were anything other than what they knew them to be.
Forgiveness is about asking that vengence not be taken on the wrongdoer. Since, per Heavenly Father, "Vengence is mine" He is the only one who can forstay vengence. He forstays vengence when those who have done wrong
Repent, and turn with meekness to Him and abstain from wrongdoing in the future
OR
He is asked by the victim to forgive their tormentor, thus showing that they, the victim, are not only forgiving but worthy of forgiveness themselves.
OR
a combination of the above.
For anyone to presume that a poster at GSC has not forgiven or will not forgive simply because they hold forth the truth regarding an individual and the situations surrounding that individual, is IMO the height of presumption. Name calling is an action committed by a person calling others by adverbs or adjectives that by their nature portray what is untrue, or for the purpose of being mean spirited. Calling someone what their actions have shown them to be, on the other hand is called telling the truth.
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annam
Grow up
ok I get the point .......relax its not good for you to get all worked up
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doojable
Annam - I've been reading your posts for a while now. I haven't responded because I can't seem to figure out where you're coming from.
Do you even want any of the posters here to respond to you? I may not be reading you correctly, but it sounds like you want to have your say and have it at that? In a sense, you want to make a point and then have it understood as you meant it.
I'm not judging here, nor am I calling you on the carpet.
If you feel you've answered these questions and made your points - then don't respond to this post. That way you won't feel like you're wasting your time.
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rascal
My bad, I assumed that you desired interaction. I guess that I don`t understand what makes you think that it is all right to treat people this way, particularly if one views themselves as a christian.
I ought to have recognised the arrogance and nasty behavior of one still contaminated by twi doctrine.
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WordWolf
It's ok- Annam doesn't recognize she's being arrogant and nasty either.
Ok, here's the insults, all from posts from annam on this very thread.....
Jun 8 2007, 12:46 PM
"I hope for the best for you all that keep this endless worthless babel going...... as for me I can't see the profit and I'll say Good bye and good luck..."
annam didn't see the profit in this discussion, so immediately labelled it
"WORTHLESS BABBLE" rather than even ask if it HAD profit she wasn't aware of.
In the process, she "necro'ed" a thread with no activity on it for 2 months,
saying "this thread is worthless" but choosing to revive it just to make that pronouncement.
Obviously making that statement was important enough to re-open a discussion.
(This is not WRONG but indicates the subject darn well DOES matter to the poster,
which means they themselves are declaring it is NOT "worthless" in the process.
---------------
Jun 11 2007, 04:26 PM
"I am sorry that I offended some of you , Thats not my intention , nor is it my intention to judge anyone here for being here."
"I have looked around and for the most part what stands out is what I have commented on the underlying current seems to be angry and gossipy"
"I doubt anyone can find a reason for this kind of continuous forum... I can see this site is exclusive and those with my opinion are not welcome here, how is that unlike how we were in the way? Not much......"
There's an apology there, which is a good thing, but there's a pronouncement that she didn't intend to judge anyone,
followed by some judgements.
"angry and gossipy", plus this forum-which has a LOT of activity across a number of years- has NO REASON to exist.
Further, despite not having been banned-and allowed to post alongside other people who disagree with the majority of
the posters here- she announces that we're "exclusive" and she's "not welcome" despite not having been run off.
That's contradictory, and more a sign of PASSING JUDGEMENT than seeing if experience is matching expectations.
----------------
There were some responses, some quite nice and reasonable.
Then annam responded again.
Jun 12 2007, 11:40 AM
"the back lash is almost comical ... caustic is so endearing"
"not a one of you has any defense for your offense.... rock on with your mean selves"
annam has also refused to explain what "offense" she perceives- but continues to pronounce
that it's being offered, which does nothing to AFFECT it, but allows the pronouncer to feel and look
holy for pointing a finger at other posters and finding fault.
--------------------------
Jun 20 2007, 01:31 AM
"humble is the least of your endearing attributes."
----------------
Jun 20 2007, 01:49 AM
"My point from the beginning .(if anyone has bothered to listen), has been this.........God gave his word so we could have instruction in everything...right? what is spoken of here is mostly against Gods instruction.....read the book kids..
It doesn't take a genius to understand . "
annam seems to think this explains what she's so worked up about, and clearly indicates
what she's offended about OBVIOUSLY would offend Jesus, but despite the condescending tone,
has failed to get specific. Apparently, the idea that anyone is warning others of evil deeds of twi and
members and leaders in the past AND PRESENT is objectionable to annam,
but how this ties into Jesus is ASSUMED by annam and not EXPLAINED.
However, she has no problem suggesting we can either AGREE with her
or lack intelligence.
"It doesn't take a genius to understand."
annam seems to indicate the ONLY "godly" response to people performing evil is NOT to warn others to
steer clear of them-as is common at the GSC-
but the ONLY "godly" response is to
"Go confront these bad way people in person, that would at least be more like Christ."
Of course, that means traveling across the country to go to a place that uses armed personnel on grounds
to police itself and deal with trespassers. Have a chance to speak to the offenders? No,
you'd be kicked off grounds and shot if you persisted, no matter how many verses you quoted directly.
annam refuses to admit this is what happens, of course. This doesn't fit with her world-view,
so it must not happen. I imagine a response would be something like if I thought they'd shoot
and it was useless to confront them ad infinitum over the evils, then I would be making God a liar
or some other "you can agree with me or defy God" witticism popular in twi/extwi circles at times.
-------------------
Jun 20 2007, 09:47 PM
"you might be nuts biglaugh.gif"
"your crazy too rolleyes.gif"
Those were in response to 2 reasonable, inoffensive posts to annam.
-------------------
Jun 20 2007, 09:53 PM
"Heres a thought ...everyone is all up in arms about my being offended or an offense, saying "we all have our own opinions and" we should be tolerant of each others,......guess what ? Take your own advice people, if your so right then what are you all upset about.......and who the hell cares if you are.....so far I have stated my opinion and you alllllll have chopped it to bits.. talk about way heads. realmad.gif"
annam doesn't see the difference between reasoned discussion (e.g."we disagree and here's why")
with personal attacks (e.g."you walk in error and your mother dresses you funny!")
annam doesn't see the difference between open discussion, disagreements, and often agreements HERE
with the "you must agree with everything the leader says" at twi.
That's poor reasoning skills in action, but what can one do about that?
We tried being polite and reasonable- the only ACCEPTABLE response to annam seems to be
wildly embracing her viewpoint.
Now, THERE you can "talk about way heads."
------------------
Then there was a run of jokes of questionable quality in a few directions,
which didn't add to the discussion, but may or may not have been meant purely in humour.
That's when I said (June 21, 01:37 AM)
"You're presuming he cares about intelligent discussions.
He got to make his declarations, and when intelligent discussions-including disagreements-
were offered, he just labelled them and began tossing out insults and jokes.
Seems his interest in "discussion" ends there."
There had been a number of posts disagreeing intelligently, and annam was fine with
replying by pronouncing disagreeing with her as unprofitable and "worthless babble", "gossipy",
"comical", to call people "nuts" or "crazy", and "way heads."
annam's reply, again was
"where were the insults......I see the joke ....did I call u stupid or ignorant, or pigheaded or infantile or ridiculous or foolish ? Naw I never insulted I just spoke the truth and you couldn't take it so you got mad..... There how's that for insulting? nono5.gif"
Well, annam, the insults included calling the posts "worthless babble" and "gossip", and the
posters "comical", "nuts", "crazy" and "way heads."
You suggested those of us who disagreed WERE stupid or ignorant
("It doesn't take a genius to understand")
and suggested-using different words but expressing the same concept-
that those of us who disagreed with you WERE
pigheaded, infantile, ridiculous or foolish.
You insulted several times, but missed when you were doing it because you were busy
being superior to those you were replying to.
"I just spoke the truth"
No, you spoke your opinion, claimed it matched Scripture, and failed to demonstrate it.
"you couldn't take it so you got mad"
No, I certainly didn't have emotion-this is too common and too sad for me to get emotional about it.
We DID intelligently disagree and explain our positions,
and explain how your position did not follow from your claim of Scripture.
Naturally, you didn't consider we may have intelligent, logical, Scripture-matching
points to make-you were too busy pronouncing judgement on us and our posts.
"There, how's that for insulting?"
Yes, it's insulting, and it matches your posts so far, despite your claims of not having offered
insult while you were insulting us.
You can certainly post here, but when you're busy focusing on insults, few will agree,
and when you post AT people rather than dialogue with them, you post ANTAGONISTICALLY.
Due to extensive exposure to the logic-damaging world of twi,
YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT EVEN AWARE YOU DID ANY OF THIS.
However, those WERE your words, you DID post them.
If it were me, I'd give a good long think as to whether I was sending the message I MEANT to send,
instead of one I did NOT mean to send.
You, of course, are welcome to do whatever you want.
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Ham
Hmm. And I thought I presented a simple question.. they run, hide from the outside world.. how on earth do you simply walk up and confront them? Wasn't my suggestion.. to confront them. Where are the details?
Maybe the suggestion is to say nothing, and just let them run free, sending out their minions to try to gather people up for the next batch of "brew"..
wonder what makes twi think the next batch is going to be any better..
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annam
WoW you have a lot of time in your hands.........pretty impressive are you a lawyer?, you should be your case is solid and by the way I was insulted in the beginning by the starter of this thread. I was giving him a taste of his own medicine, damn you people really need to lighten up............
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Ham
Third time..
The filthy sycophants are holed up in a briar patch where even the rabbits won't go.. still sending out emmisaries trying to hunt for some ingredients to bake the next failed cake..
HOW do you honestly suggest, that an individual confront them "as Christ would"?
You were the one to suggest it..
Perhaps the best thing we can do is keep throwing lime on the place, so people know to avoid it lest they get the "ickies".
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Ham
If you want to get really "biblical" about it..
passover time, they sent crews around to properly whiten unclean places. Year after year after year..
You'd think they'd just lighten up and "get over it"..
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templelady
So, I don't believe that annam has ever given an answer to one of the points brought up in one of the earliest posts on this thread namely;
Why, annam did you go diging through the past topics to resurrect a thread 2 months dead to object too?? Would it not have been easier to just start a new topic??
Yes , I am asking an irrelevant question, if you consider its importance in the grand scheme of things , but your motivations interest me.
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Captain Spiritural
I love it feel the love baby, 'jr4jc' you are da man
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Ham
Even with "speaking in tongues".. it was almost as bizarre as it would have been without.. maybe even more so.
Oh.. signs, wonders.. I never saw one, outside of vey definition. I actually got the front parking place at the local supermarket a couple of times.. it was a vey "wonder"..
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T-Bone
You are assuming the evil has past. The insidious doctrines, practices, and viewpoint of VPW are alive and well at TWI! As Groucho so accurately put it in post # 1 – VPW knew TWI was a personality cult – and with VPW's persona as the man of god thoroughly embedded in its legacy – there has been no diminishing of his influence.
As a former member of TWI and the Way Corps – I feel it is my Christian responsibility to expose the evil, reveal their manipulative tactics, warn others, and help those who want to rid themselves of TWI's poison. We are not dealing with a past event but an on-going menace that dominates the lives of its followers and inflicts mind-poisoning thought processes – followers are led astray to serve TWI's agenda instead of Christ. How they cloud the perception of followers and direct all efforts to ensure TWI's future is enough to make any real Christian vomit.
It didn't seem to be worthless babble for Paul to talk about false apostles and deceitful workers – encouraging believers to be discerning. There's quite a difference between the humility and attitude of service of a true Christian leader exemplified in someone like Paul and the pompous, self-assuming, arrogant, tyrannical rulership of many a TWI leader:
II Corinthians 11:1-15 NIV
1 I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
7Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
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