Or maybe it's a combination of Groucho's and Jim's idea. Maybe VPW believed his personality would live on in his "son" [seduced by the dark side of the farce] - and so wanting someone to continue with his life's work wreck he bequeathed the kingdumb to LCM.
Call me crazy but I think the selection was far more pragmatic than that. VPW needed to appoint a successor who, even though said successor knew where all the "skeletons" were buried, had a vested interest in keeping teh skeletons buried since he had far more to lose if they ever came to light than VPW did. LCM was tailor made for the job.
My opinion is that it's much simpler than that. VPW (and his mighty ego) picked the biggest foot-kisser.
...and there I was on a roll...thought I had hit on something ...but Jim brings up a very valid point. Nobody...and I mean NOBODY smootched Vic's foot more than king okie.
...and no doubt, templelady makes a good point too. Lcm did know where the bodies were buried.
All in all, Veepee did view Loy as his protege. The one who wore the brown lipstick, who knew the dark secrets and had the personality to hog the spotlight....Although, I doubt that Vic ever dreamed that Loy, once he had the much coveted mantle, would turn on him like a wild dog turns on the old sick and weaker dog...mauling him by destroying every program (WOW, ROA, PFAL) that the cornfield preacher had spent much of his life building....even called his teachings "old wineskins".
...Just goes to show you how heartless Martindale was. Of course today, the Craiggers is picking sh *t with the chickens.
Martindale probably threatened Wierwille that he'd leave TWI if he couldn't be the successor.
Wierwille knew Martindale was weak, but wrongly believed TWI followers were also weak, needing a gigolo to prance around a stage to keep their wandering eyes on the "prize," a.k.a., "the ministry." Their dependent kind of weakness would blind them to Craig's, the self-gratifying kind, Wierwille hoped, as the weak tend to indulge the strong, and measure them by a more lenient standard.
So Wierwille gave in. If Wierwille could have chosen anyone at all, without the distraction of Martindale's (presumed) ultimatum, I think it would have been
...And the funny thing is that I have talked in length with some of twi's "early leaders" who knew Martindale when he first showed up...what a f*up he was...I don't think Loy ever had a clue...for him, it was always about flash and pomp. He was just TOO impressed with himself...why?... got me. He was a chump.
ok i admit i'm a little warped, but does anybody else remember spirit in the athelete-boy's commercial for the way corp. it showed some guy out mowing the lawn at a campus and misses a swatch and lcm goes out and reems out for attention to detail crap - like that was some sort of magical power that would keep devils spirits away----didn't work though did it---anyway i used to have a huge yard i mowed and one ofthe first times i mowed it i missed a swatch saw it while on the next section but decided to leave it as a TRIBUTE to atheletes in the spirit- boy
i still do it once in a while if i think about it and
my poor wife just thinks i'm not htat good at mowing the lawn
yeah, i remember that corps promo. another example of the third-rate schlock they always turned out. cheesy, low-rent, lowbrow--looking back, it could've been the intro to some super 8 porn flick. all it needed was some cheap panelling on the walls. (wait--didn't the brc have cheap panelling on the walls??)
in any other realm, i'd have been so appalled by the complete lack of production value, it would've turned me off to the whole thing. but instead it endeared me to it, just like vp's cornpone amateurism did in pfal.
Sadly, I remember that scene from the video most of the times I mow my lawn. I forgot that it was a Corps promo. I remember the reamee saying that he was working on his retemories and got distracted!
My opinion is that it's much simpler than that. VPW (and his mighty ego) picked the biggest foot-kisser.
Jim I think you nailed it!
Ironically the story of Loy Boy bears out a section of the word better than any I’ve ever seen:
1 Timothy 3:1-6
"1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be… 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."
I think God nailed it pretty well too... "being lifted up with pride he fell"...
he he....! I remember that video! I remember Dan (who played the newbie WC), I cant recall his last name right now, but he had the prettiest blue eyes! he he!
I was never corps or with TWI very long 12 years by my count. But I was white washed by the whole idea of it.
In regards to the broad topic of Wiewille's mistake(s) I have one observation, which maybe the genesis of TWI's downfall. PFAL.
Over the past 5 years I have be doing much self-improvement, learning Buddhist teachings, listening to talks by noted personnal growth teachers like Dr. Wayne Dyer, Dale Carnegie, and Dr. Andrew Weil. The common thread in all these teachings is recognizing ego as a source of great power, and chosing not to use or live in the ego. What is taught is empowerment, that is to me saying, I am powerless over many things, in recognition of that I seek a power greater then myself to solve my life problems, in this way ego is eased out. Without ego to power my life, I go from powerless to empowered, I spend less time trying to figure life out, and more time living it.
With that said as I look back had I known then what I know now about the ego, I would have rejected PFAL as a farce and one man's attempt to gain a following of people who were just as sick and simpathetic to his resentments as he was.
PFAL opens with a resentment that VPW had about his church and it's leaders. TWI historicly was founded because of that resentment. TWI was fueled by this resentment, a resentment so powerful it blinded my eyes to the truth behind TWI's formation. Resentment was the food for TWI's growth, there was no love comming from VPW it was required to give him love, to pat him on the head and say it's OK you are a good little boy, we will show those mean church leaders that fired you, we will show the neigh sayers who say this is a cult, we will help you build this ministery for you so you can prove you are right after all.
Resentments are laced all through PFAL and it is because we related to VPW as a man and someone who was wronged, because we all hate being wrong. We rallied behind this battered warrior and lifted him up as our leader, why? Because we had been wronged too, we had resentments too, we wanted to show them too, we wanted to finally be a part of something that was going somewhere too. We didn't mind shunning our families because they were a source of our resentments, after all PFAL gave us permission to use those resentments as fuel to power our lives.
Today I avoid resentments I avoid ego driven living. Do I still get resentments? Do I still have to deal with my ego? Does the Sun still rise in the east and set in the west?
I hope I made some sense and didn't derail this thread.
yeah he chooses the biggest foot kisser and then he whines and cries that the egomaniac doesn't have enough respect for him. so then he chooses that nutcase from upstate new york who was over ruining people in europe. he just couldn't get it right the basturd. maybe he should have stuck with doop, heefner, others
giving credit where credit is due i learned to walk with God while in the way, so much so that when the time came to leave i did---i am not just blowing my own horn so hear me out---ministries or moves of God have a time and place, a function, i personally have NEVER seen it clearer than with PROMISE KEEPERS--i got involved with a local bunch and we met weekly for years, went to local big meetings...and it was wonderful---my son and i went to the promise keepers thing in washington DC which if any of you were at can testify was very good and easily had over 1 million and probably 2 million people---[i do not say that cause i counted them but because of arial photography and someone i knew knew the scientific way to etsimate people---but this was after the million man march --that muslim thing---and therefore promise keepers made a point to NOT mention numbers--so as to cause conflict--anway i degress--promise keepers was wonderful and it ran it's course and should of had a huge climax/conclusion at the washington deal---but instead it lingered and limped on---
i do not know when or how the way should have gone-- i just use that as an example of GOD clearly using a group for a while--man almost always keeps these things going after GOD has left [which HE doesn't fully leave. but HIS focus and the groups function are no longer there, but what is wierd is these group's often do not notice this ]
anyway i enjoyed the way while there, learned a lot, but more so have learned MORE by questioning and looking at the bible and GOD for myself now that i have NO GURU's to help/hinder me.
again i recommend online bible [[[ www.onlinebible.net]]] to study and learn from--but not to learn the facts better to argue better....
but to get to know GOD---the grace is HUGE, but we have a LORD
They love us so much---but they do not like us hurting ourselves and others [[dad and big brother-that is]
i use the bible on PC and different readings to un-learn or better stated to find out the whole picture, cause the way showed us lots of tips of icebergs that no one group had all in one place, be it that most of the biggest ones came from outside of VPW and the way, he still brought them together
manifestations of holy spirit---great info [of course started by bullinger in his 'word studies on the holy spirit'] but bullinger believed the manifestations had passed, so his view was clearer and blurrier---he has no dog in the fight- he did not manifest speaking in tongues etc...therefore his work is not slighted by what he personally did or didn;t do but instead is very accruate--the twist is he believed we couldn't do it, and we can
aramamaic stuff---george lamsa
red thread and figures of speech and numbers in scripture...bullinger--
bullinger lacking manifestations was a little to much on info and facts and not enough on walking with GODand heart, as i see it and VPW added manifesting then went froward with info being most important
for how are you gonna lead and organize people if you [as the bible teaches] teach them to stand on their own two feet and walk with GOD themsleves---for crying out loud they might not give you money and you might have to work for a living ;(
i see it on this web site and in other out of the way groups that looking for hidden meaning is king
seeing what is plain is wonderful---GOD is GOD and is real and is personal [one on one]
Jesus did die for us, though a little catholicized Mel gibsons movie is the best representation of how much Jesus loves you--though that is not stated clearly in the movie, if YOU look for it kowing about His love, seeing what HE did takes on new meaning, then you see the Fathers love by ressurecting Jesus as He will us.
jr4jc...Yes, I am a Christian and believe in the ressurection of Christ...and I also believe that God works when and where He can in individual's lives and also in the lives of collective groups...
...That being said, I'm not so sure that twi even qualifies as a Christian organization. Their "absent Christ" doctrine discouraged a personal relationship with the savior and instead replaced that relationship with being a follower of a man-made hierarchy that was fueled by egotism, wrong doctrines and deceit. In the final analysis, twi used and abused people. Learned to walk with God while in twi?...Good for you, but I dare say that if you did...it was in SPITE of twi, not because of them.
Many folks have been convinced that they were "tapped into the truth" while being involved with such illustrious groups as Hari Krishna, the Moonies, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and L Ron Hubbard...Personally, I have dismissed the "feel good" experiences of cult involvement and written them off as phoney baloney.
V.P. Wierwille was a con man. He stole the works of other men and then fashioned them around his own ego and ulterior motives. He was a drunken womanizer and the fruit of his "ministry" is clearly bogus.
The great lesson that I learned from twi was that "there's a sucker born every minute".
Hijacking the truth and stealing the Love intended for God is wrong.
I think God is so powerful He is able to work in people inspite of the group they belong to, or how twisted it's leaders may be. I think I learned to walk with God inspite of TWI's tripe not because of it. The darker it got the brighter God's light, and clearer the contrast. LCM did us all a favor by tearing down the House of Wierwille, because only then could we see with our own eyes the foundation it was built on. Bodies, Bottles of Booze, and Bull S***.
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Jim
My opinion is that it's much simpler than that. VPW (and his mighty ego) picked the biggest foot-kisser.
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GarthP2000
... what Jim said.
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T-Bone
Or maybe it's a combination of Groucho's and Jim's idea. Maybe VPW believed his personality would live on in his "son" [seduced by the dark side of the farce] - and so wanting someone to continue with his life's work wreck he bequeathed the kingdumb to LCM.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i thought we must have something to be thankful to veepee
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templelady
Call me crazy but I think the selection was far more pragmatic than that. VPW needed to appoint a successor who, even though said successor knew where all the "skeletons" were buried, had a vested interest in keeping teh skeletons buried since he had far more to lose if they ever came to light than VPW did. LCM was tailor made for the job.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and there I was on a roll...thought I had hit on something
...but Jim brings up a very valid point. Nobody...and I mean NOBODY smootched Vic's foot more than king okie.
...and no doubt, templelady makes a good point too. Lcm did know where the bodies were buried.
All in all, Veepee did view Loy as his protege. The one who wore the brown lipstick, who knew the dark secrets and had the personality to hog the spotlight....Although, I doubt that Vic ever dreamed that Loy, once he had the much coveted mantle, would turn on him like a wild dog turns on the old sick and weaker dog...mauling him by destroying every program (WOW, ROA, PFAL) that the cornfield preacher had spent much of his life building....even called his teachings "old wineskins".
...Just goes to show you how heartless Martindale was. Of course today, the Craiggers is picking sh *t with the chickens.
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satori001
Martindale probably threatened Wierwille that he'd leave TWI if he couldn't be the successor.
Wierwille knew Martindale was weak, but wrongly believed TWI followers were also weak, needing a gigolo to prance around a stage to keep their wandering eyes on the "prize," a.k.a., "the ministry." Their dependent kind of weakness would blind them to Craig's, the self-gratifying kind, Wierwille hoped, as the weak tend to indulge the strong, and measure them by a more lenient standard.
So Wierwille gave in. If Wierwille could have chosen anyone at all, without the distraction of Martindale's (presumed) ultimatum, I think it would have been
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dmiller
Walter??
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satori001
oldiesman.
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doojable
ME!
Heeeeeeee
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dmiller
We've had our *Phil* of vp worship!!
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GrouchoMarxJr
...And the funny thing is that I have talked in length with some of twi's "early leaders" who knew Martindale when he first showed up...what a f*up he was...I don't think Loy ever had a clue...for him, it was always about flash and pomp. He was just TOO impressed with himself...why?... got me. He was a chump.
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jr4jc
i still do it once in a while if i think about it and
my poor wife just thinks i'm not htat good at mowing the lawn
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Sunesis
jr4jc - LOL!!! That cracked me up.
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sprawled out
yeah, i remember that corps promo. another example of the third-rate schlock they always turned out. cheesy, low-rent, lowbrow--looking back, it could've been the intro to some super 8 porn flick. all it needed was some cheap panelling on the walls. (wait--didn't the brc have cheap panelling on the walls??)
in any other realm, i'd have been so appalled by the complete lack of production value, it would've turned me off to the whole thing. but instead it endeared me to it, just like vp's cornpone amateurism did in pfal.
who was brainwashed? not ME!
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GeorgeStGeorge
Sadly, I remember that scene from the video most of the times I mow my lawn. I forgot that it was a Corps promo. I remember the reamee saying that he was working on his retemories and got distracted!
George
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free2love
Jim I think you nailed it!
Ironically the story of Loy Boy bears out a section of the word better than any I’ve ever seen:
1 Timothy 3:1-6
"1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be… 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."
I think God nailed it pretty well too... "being lifted up with pride he fell"...
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MCarroll
he he....! I remember that video! I remember Dan (who played the newbie WC), I cant recall his last name right now, but he had the prettiest blue eyes! he he!
MC
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Seth R.
Hi Groucho and all,
I was never corps or with TWI very long 12 years by my count. But I was white washed by the whole idea of it.
In regards to the broad topic of Wiewille's mistake(s) I have one observation, which maybe the genesis of TWI's downfall. PFAL.
Over the past 5 years I have be doing much self-improvement, learning Buddhist teachings, listening to talks by noted personnal growth teachers like Dr. Wayne Dyer, Dale Carnegie, and Dr. Andrew Weil. The common thread in all these teachings is recognizing ego as a source of great power, and chosing not to use or live in the ego. What is taught is empowerment, that is to me saying, I am powerless over many things, in recognition of that I seek a power greater then myself to solve my life problems, in this way ego is eased out. Without ego to power my life, I go from powerless to empowered, I spend less time trying to figure life out, and more time living it.
With that said as I look back had I known then what I know now about the ego, I would have rejected PFAL as a farce and one man's attempt to gain a following of people who were just as sick and simpathetic to his resentments as he was.
PFAL opens with a resentment that VPW had about his church and it's leaders. TWI historicly was founded because of that resentment. TWI was fueled by this resentment, a resentment so powerful it blinded my eyes to the truth behind TWI's formation. Resentment was the food for TWI's growth, there was no love comming from VPW it was required to give him love, to pat him on the head and say it's OK you are a good little boy, we will show those mean church leaders that fired you, we will show the neigh sayers who say this is a cult, we will help you build this ministery for you so you can prove you are right after all.
Resentments are laced all through PFAL and it is because we related to VPW as a man and someone who was wronged, because we all hate being wrong. We rallied behind this battered warrior and lifted him up as our leader, why? Because we had been wronged too, we had resentments too, we wanted to show them too, we wanted to finally be a part of something that was going somewhere too. We didn't mind shunning our families because they were a source of our resentments, after all PFAL gave us permission to use those resentments as fuel to power our lives.
Today I avoid resentments I avoid ego driven living. Do I still get resentments? Do I still have to deal with my ego? Does the Sun still rise in the east and set in the west?
I hope I made some sense and didn't derail this thread.
Seth
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excathedra
yeah he chooses the biggest foot kisser and then he whines and cries that the egomaniac doesn't have enough respect for him. so then he chooses that nutcase from upstate new york who was over ruining people in europe. he just couldn't get it right the basturd. maybe he should have stuck with doop, heefner, others
walter seemed very nice
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jr4jc
giving credit where credit is due i learned to walk with God while in the way, so much so that when the time came to leave i did---i am not just blowing my own horn so hear me out---ministries or moves of God have a time and place, a function, i personally have NEVER seen it clearer than with PROMISE KEEPERS--i got involved with a local bunch and we met weekly for years, went to local big meetings...and it was wonderful---my son and i went to the promise keepers thing in washington DC which if any of you were at can testify was very good and easily had over 1 million and probably 2 million people---[i do not say that cause i counted them but because of arial photography and someone i knew knew the scientific way to etsimate people---but this was after the million man march --that muslim thing---and therefore promise keepers made a point to NOT mention numbers--so as to cause conflict--anway i degress--promise keepers was wonderful and it ran it's course and should of had a huge climax/conclusion at the washington deal---but instead it lingered and limped on---
i do not know when or how the way should have gone-- i just use that as an example of GOD clearly using a group for a while--man almost always keeps these things going after GOD has left [which HE doesn't fully leave. but HIS focus and the groups function are no longer there, but what is wierd is these group's often do not notice this ]
anyway i enjoyed the way while there, learned a lot, but more so have learned MORE by questioning and looking at the bible and GOD for myself now that i have NO GURU's to help/hinder me.
again i recommend online bible [[[ www.onlinebible.net]]] to study and learn from--but not to learn the facts better to argue better....
but to get to know GOD---the grace is HUGE, but we have a LORD
They love us so much---but they do not like us hurting ourselves and others [[dad and big brother-that is]
i use the bible on PC and different readings to un-learn or better stated to find out the whole picture, cause the way showed us lots of tips of icebergs that no one group had all in one place, be it that most of the biggest ones came from outside of VPW and the way, he still brought them together
manifestations of holy spirit---great info [of course started by bullinger in his 'word studies on the holy spirit'] but bullinger believed the manifestations had passed, so his view was clearer and blurrier---he has no dog in the fight- he did not manifest speaking in tongues etc...therefore his work is not slighted by what he personally did or didn;t do but instead is very accruate--the twist is he believed we couldn't do it, and we can
aramamaic stuff---george lamsa
red thread and figures of speech and numbers in scripture...bullinger--
bullinger lacking manifestations was a little to much on info and facts and not enough on walking with GODand heart, as i see it and VPW added manifesting then went froward with info being most important
for how are you gonna lead and organize people if you [as the bible teaches] teach them to stand on their own two feet and walk with GOD themsleves---for crying out loud they might not give you money and you might have to work for a living ;(
i see it on this web site and in other out of the way groups that looking for hidden meaning is king
seeing what is plain is wonderful---GOD is GOD and is real and is personal [one on one]
Jesus did die for us, though a little catholicized Mel gibsons movie is the best representation of how much Jesus loves you--though that is not stated clearly in the movie, if YOU look for it kowing about His love, seeing what HE did takes on new meaning, then you see the Fathers love by ressurecting Jesus as He will us.
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GrouchoMarxJr
jr4jc...Yes, I am a Christian and believe in the ressurection of Christ...and I also believe that God works when and where He can in individual's lives and also in the lives of collective groups...
...That being said, I'm not so sure that twi even qualifies as a Christian organization. Their "absent Christ" doctrine discouraged a personal relationship with the savior and instead replaced that relationship with being a follower of a man-made hierarchy that was fueled by egotism, wrong doctrines and deceit. In the final analysis, twi used and abused people. Learned to walk with God while in twi?...Good for you, but I dare say that if you did...it was in SPITE of twi, not because of them.
Many folks have been convinced that they were "tapped into the truth" while being involved with such illustrious groups as Hari Krishna, the Moonies, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and L Ron Hubbard...Personally, I have dismissed the "feel good" experiences of cult involvement and written them off as phoney baloney.
V.P. Wierwille was a con man. He stole the works of other men and then fashioned them around his own ego and ulterior motives. He was a drunken womanizer and the fruit of his "ministry" is clearly bogus.
The great lesson that I learned from twi was that "there's a sucker born every minute".
....a bad tree simply doesn't produce good fruit.
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Seth R.
Hijacking the truth and stealing the Love intended for God is wrong.
I think God is so powerful He is able to work in people inspite of the group they belong to, or how twisted it's leaders may be. I think I learned to walk with God inspite of TWI's tripe not because of it. The darker it got the brighter God's light, and clearer the contrast. LCM did us all a favor by tearing down the House of Wierwille, because only then could we see with our own eyes the foundation it was built on. Bodies, Bottles of Booze, and Bull S***.
Seth
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oenophile
Actually, VP asked me first. I turned him down.
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