I doubt he did Mark. Apparently he tried on his stretcher with his last breath to turn to get away from approaching God fearing, Jesus loving Marines who could have led him into getting born-again. What a loser.
I doubt he did Mark. Apparently he tried on his stretcher with his last breath to turn to get away from approaching God fearing, Jesus loving Marines who could have led him into getting born-again. What a loser.
So are you saying that he did not have the opportunity?
Or are you saying that he did not take advantage of the opportunity?
I would like to think that he had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ. I don't know if he did or niot - and quite frankly, my opinion doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what is between Al Zarqawi and God.
Regardless of the outcome, we are to pray for our enemies. I usually pray that God has free reign in their lives to do as He sees fit. IMHO that leaves my ego out of the whole matter.
Isn't there a verse that says that no one knows what is in the heart of a man save that man himself....?????
Seems like a waste of time and energy to speculate on this man's heart in his final moments.
Again, I'd like to believe that he had BOTH the opportunity to accept and that he took advantage of this opportunity. I'll let God determine the justice of the matter either way. After all, His ways are not like our ways....
Then again..... he never did have the class.........(tongue placed firmly in cheek here!)
I'd guess he was in the seared conscience category, but I'd love him enough to try the iron maiden approach. Maybe he'd even give some intel out before he confessed, and that could save other souls.
Mark, an interesting question being posited. Honestly, it's not one keeping me awake at night, but not because I wish the worst for him. He's dead now, and can't do anymore harm.
It's a little like asking if all the water in the world could be put in glasses, how many glasses would you need? Interesting to calculate but really unknowable to any degree of precision in the end. Figure, there's always going to be that one little pond no one knows about.
If the question is really "can God forgive the seemingly unforgivable", the answer would be yes. What does that mean, and how is it done? Who knows? I suppose if I were God it could be very simple.
Is the question really "can YOU/ME forgive the seemingly unforgivable? And if so, what relies on that?
If a man responsible for killing people and causing death to 100's directly and indirectly were to repent of that evil, I'd be thankful for the change of heart whenever it occured. But it doesn't bring the dead back. And on that level, someone could feel the same way towards George Bush.
"Accepting Jesus Christ" is sort of a loaded phrase. To do so requires understanding and meaning. I suspect it's not a "hail-mary" pass at the last minute where someone runs down their list of dieties and their requirements so as to have the best shot at some sort of after life, if it's coming.
So I dunno. Life in even the shortest increments is an incredible thing. I'd hope that he made the best of his last moments. What they might really have been I have no idea.
He did not take advantage of the opportunity. I guess God was not working in the situation for him. What a loser.
I suspect the same as you. But it certainly would not upset me if I found that, by some miracle that I did not understand, that my suspicion was wrong.
I think God gives individuals many chances in their lifetimes. I ran across an interesting website awhile ago. It was a book written by a preacher in the 1860s. His "hobby" was collecting deathbed stories, and the difference between those who were Christians and those who weren't when they died. There were a couple hundred stories.
The Christian deaths became pretty much the same after awhile, sad to be dying but looking forward to being with their Savior. Some even had visions of him and/or heaven before they died.
The fascinating ones, to me though, were people who didn't believe. Many of them would be on their beds and family and friends telling them, its not too late, accept Christ. Most of them would not. The main reason was, they said, was that they had had their chance and rejected him. Many even told exactly when God had reached out to them, the exact moment of decision. Family would say, well, its still not too late, and they would be adamant that it was. there were also some of them who had a vision of where they were going and were horrified, they would be told its not too late, you don't have to go there, and they, almost to a man said, no, I chose this, this is what I deserve. I think it can be too late.
I note in the Bible, the free gift of eternal life is available to all that call on Christ, or, I think to all who truly call on God, whether they knew/or were allowed to know Christ or not. Thus, we read peace on earth, good will towards men. But, Christ also said he prayed not for the world, but for those the Father had given him.
The NT basically divides mankind into the "world" and those who are Sons of God - we are to be a brand new creation someday - up there with Angels - no wonder the angels desire to look into what shall be - I've digressed.
I have also read contemporary stories of people who also knew exactly when the choice was offered. I really do think God gives us many times and places for choice. If Zarqawi did not accept, that was his choice.
I think we are told to pray for evil men also so that the holy spirit can keep their deeds in check, or if they are in power, that they will one day topple. When we are taken,and there is no more holy spirit and comforter upon the earth, and the wrath commences, I cannot imagine living in a world where there is no living christ among humans to keep evil in check. I do thank God we are saved from the wrath, as God moves to restore the earth and creation to the perfection it once had.
...then, as the Lord continued to teach me patiently, I prayed for God to met out His justice in any way He saw fit.
I can't imagine 500-lb bombs leaving a person with a lot of time for contemplating repentance. I also have a hard time buying into the freeze-dried grace that would allow a brutal murderer instant access to God's Kingdom, whatever that might be and if, indeed, it could possibly be instant. Maybe this is just how God saw fit to answer your prayer. Of course, we won't know anytime soon, if ever.
Which has got me thinking (and off topic). What if the angels are/were previous human-kind pre Adam and Eve and we are part of an angel producing cycle ??!!
I suspect the same as you. But it certainly would not upset me if I found that, by some miracle that I did not understand, that my suspicion was wrong.
I doubt he did Mark. Apparently he tried on his stretcher with his last breath to turn to get away from approaching God fearing, Jesus loving Marines who could have led him into getting born-again. What a loser.
Why is this "apparent"? What have you heard or read? Sounds like an urban legend to me.
I had also read the same report as Allan, though I don't recall "Jesus loving" marines - for all we know, they could have been Wiccan.
And who knows the fate of Zarqawi's soul? If there is indeed anything to the "soul sleep" belief, then
perhaps his soul is stored one of God's backup disks, where some of the tech angels will run their "anti-viral" software, remove the bugs, and "reboot" Zarqawi as good as new.
Dmiller, the special forces and Iraqis had the house surrounded and quite a few other locations. The military then called in the airstrike. The Iraqis went first to the house to check (probably so no one could say the americans murdered poor Zarqawi) and found him in the basement under a slab that had fallen and brought him up.
Of course the military was there, why wouldn't they be?
Which has got me thinking (and off topic). What if the angels are/were previous human-kind pre Adam and Eve and we are part of an angel producing cycle ??!!
You'd be LDS Allen
My beliefs say that if he didn't repent and convert in this life he will have the chance in the spirit world. And I believe that.
(we ARE NOT going to segue into A discussion of LDS beliefs on this thread want to discuss those particulars start a new thread and I'll meet you there.)
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George Aar
Oh, I had all sorts of stuff to say, but, ah hell, suffice it to say,
You and I have remarkably different ways of looking at such things.
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allan w.
I doubt he did Mark. Apparently he tried on his stretcher with his last breath to turn to get away from approaching God fearing, Jesus loving Marines who could have led him into getting born-again. What a loser.
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markomalley
So are you saying that he did not have the opportunity?
Or are you saying that he did not take advantage of the opportunity?
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doojable
I'm weighing in here - but only breifly.
I would like to think that he had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ. I don't know if he did or niot - and quite frankly, my opinion doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what is between Al Zarqawi and God.
Regardless of the outcome, we are to pray for our enemies. I usually pray that God has free reign in their lives to do as He sees fit. IMHO that leaves my ego out of the whole matter.
Isn't there a verse that says that no one knows what is in the heart of a man save that man himself....?????
Seems like a waste of time and energy to speculate on this man's heart in his final moments.
Again, I'd like to believe that he had BOTH the opportunity to accept and that he took advantage of this opportunity. I'll let God determine the justice of the matter either way. After all, His ways are not like our ways....
Then again..... he never did have the class.........(tongue placed firmly in cheek here!)
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dmiller
Amen!!!
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rhino
I'd guess he was in the seared conscience category, but I'd love him enough to try the iron maiden approach. Maybe he'd even give some intel out before he confessed, and that could save other souls.
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socks
Mark, an interesting question being posited. Honestly, it's not one keeping me awake at night, but not because I wish the worst for him. He's dead now, and can't do anymore harm.
It's a little like asking if all the water in the world could be put in glasses, how many glasses would you need? Interesting to calculate but really unknowable to any degree of precision in the end. Figure, there's always going to be that one little pond no one knows about.
If the question is really "can God forgive the seemingly unforgivable", the answer would be yes. What does that mean, and how is it done? Who knows? I suppose if I were God it could be very simple.
Is the question really "can YOU/ME forgive the seemingly unforgivable? And if so, what relies on that?
If a man responsible for killing people and causing death to 100's directly and indirectly were to repent of that evil, I'd be thankful for the change of heart whenever it occured. But it doesn't bring the dead back. And on that level, someone could feel the same way towards George Bush.
"Accepting Jesus Christ" is sort of a loaded phrase. To do so requires understanding and meaning. I suspect it's not a "hail-mary" pass at the last minute where someone runs down their list of dieties and their requirements so as to have the best shot at some sort of after life, if it's coming.
So I dunno. Life in even the shortest increments is an incredible thing. I'd hope that he made the best of his last moments. What they might really have been I have no idea.
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allan w.
He did not take advantage of the opportunity. I guess God was not working in the situation for him. What a loser.
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markomalley
I suspect the same as you. But it certainly would not upset me if I found that, by some miracle that I did not understand, that my suspicion was wrong.
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Sunesis
I think God gives individuals many chances in their lifetimes. I ran across an interesting website awhile ago. It was a book written by a preacher in the 1860s. His "hobby" was collecting deathbed stories, and the difference between those who were Christians and those who weren't when they died. There were a couple hundred stories.
The Christian deaths became pretty much the same after awhile, sad to be dying but looking forward to being with their Savior. Some even had visions of him and/or heaven before they died.
The fascinating ones, to me though, were people who didn't believe. Many of them would be on their beds and family and friends telling them, its not too late, accept Christ. Most of them would not. The main reason was, they said, was that they had had their chance and rejected him. Many even told exactly when God had reached out to them, the exact moment of decision. Family would say, well, its still not too late, and they would be adamant that it was. there were also some of them who had a vision of where they were going and were horrified, they would be told its not too late, you don't have to go there, and they, almost to a man said, no, I chose this, this is what I deserve. I think it can be too late.
I note in the Bible, the free gift of eternal life is available to all that call on Christ, or, I think to all who truly call on God, whether they knew/or were allowed to know Christ or not. Thus, we read peace on earth, good will towards men. But, Christ also said he prayed not for the world, but for those the Father had given him.
The NT basically divides mankind into the "world" and those who are Sons of God - we are to be a brand new creation someday - up there with Angels - no wonder the angels desire to look into what shall be - I've digressed.
I have also read contemporary stories of people who also knew exactly when the choice was offered. I really do think God gives us many times and places for choice. If Zarqawi did not accept, that was his choice.
I think we are told to pray for evil men also so that the holy spirit can keep their deeds in check, or if they are in power, that they will one day topple. When we are taken,and there is no more holy spirit and comforter upon the earth, and the wrath commences, I cannot imagine living in a world where there is no living christ among humans to keep evil in check. I do thank God we are saved from the wrath, as God moves to restore the earth and creation to the perfection it once had.
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JumpinJive
I can't imagine 500-lb bombs leaving a person with a lot of time for contemplating repentance. I also have a hard time buying into the freeze-dried grace that would allow a brutal murderer instant access to God's Kingdom, whatever that might be and if, indeed, it could possibly be instant. Maybe this is just how God saw fit to answer your prayer. Of course, we won't know anytime soon, if ever.
-JJ
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allan w.
Which has got me thinking (and off topic). What if the angels are/were previous human-kind pre Adam and Eve and we are part of an angel producing cycle ??!!
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sirguessalot
brilliant thread, Mark
i especially love the way you put this:
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Oakspear
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allan w.
Oaks...it was in one of the earlier reports that came out.
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dmiller
If the house was hit by an air strike -- where did the *Jesus loving Marines* suddenly show up from,
and how did he (AL Z) end up on a stretcher after 1,000 pounds of *ordinance*
directed at the house he was in detonated,
Ready to make a confession (if any)???
B as in B, and S as in S.
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TheInvisibleDan
I had also read the same report as Allan, though I don't recall "Jesus loving" marines - for all we know, they could have been Wiccan.
And who knows the fate of Zarqawi's soul? If there is indeed anything to the "soul sleep" belief, then
perhaps his soul is stored one of God's backup disks, where some of the tech angels will run their "anti-viral" software, remove the bugs, and "reboot" Zarqawi as good as new.
:)
Danny
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Sunesis
Dmiller, the special forces and Iraqis had the house surrounded and quite a few other locations. The military then called in the airstrike. The Iraqis went first to the house to check (probably so no one could say the americans murdered poor Zarqawi) and found him in the basement under a slab that had fallen and brought him up.
Of course the military was there, why wouldn't they be?
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templelady
My beliefs say that if he didn't repent and convert in this life he will have the chance in the spirit world. And I believe that.
(we ARE NOT going to segue into A discussion of LDS beliefs on this thread want to discuss those particulars start a new thread and I'll meet you there.)
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allan w.
It's o.k. Mo ...I think we both did that one to death !
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Oakspear
No reference to "Jesus-loving" Marines, or an opportunity to "get saved".
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allan w.
Sorry...it was an attempt at being FUNNY !
As it turns out, now it seemed he lived for nearly an hour after the blast.
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Oakspear
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