Uh, have you ever seen this particular ability demonstrated? It's, uh, less than overwhelming. Somehow hopping in the lotus position is still just hopping to me. But then I am already sold out to the "other side"...
I used to think that I could see through walls as a kid, and read people's minds, and even control other's actions. Later - once I understood what was "really" going on - I believed I could cast out demons and perform miraculous healing. I convinced myself that I had actually performed "astral projection" and seen auras and the like.
But, like Danny, as I've gotten older all of the supernatural spiritual stuff that I "knew" about and the little that I had supposedly done myself somehow slowly morphed into events that could easily fit within the realm of the known laws of physics. Yeah, and life has become a bit more mundane, but far more understandable. Imagine what it would be like if "spirits" really could override physics at their will.
I've never had (at least insofar as I'm aware) such supernatural encounters as you describe
with beings or entities from the other realm. ...No apparitions ever manifesting themselves to me. Not even so much as a disembodied voice.
"Not even so much as a disembodied voice." Actually, the disembodied voice was the scary one.
Before that, I wasn't aware that I was encountering anything - I thought that the things that were happening were all part of the great human potential, &, for the most part, I thought that I was in control of my growing utilization of that potential; although, sometimes, & more & more, I obviously was totally without control in the midst of powerful & damaging phenomena that I perceived as my own life issues - now I view those phenomena as parlor tricks with me as the dupe.
And after that "disembodied voice," anything I encountered was via spiritual eyes, & I was in control, &, more & more, I learned how complete was that control.
I mean not to offend you [no offence taken, Danny], but one statement causes me to wonder:
Prior to the drugs, prior to twi -did you watch a lot of gothic/horror flicks throughout the 60s and the 70s?
Perhaps that spirit did also. I think even the "Twilight Zone" may have had at least half a dozen episodes featuring the devil striking a bargain of one form or another in exchange for the soul of a person being enticed.
"Prior to the drugs, prior to twi" That's a little hard to answer. I sniffed glue more often than not all the way through the 6th grade. I didn't watch a lot of gothic/horror flicks after Dracula & Frankenstein; although, I've always had a thing for vampire stories. I did read a lot of sci-fi books, especially books involving ESP abilities.
RE: "featuring the devil striking a bargain of one form or another in exchange for the soul of a person being enticed." Actually, the deal wasn't for my soul; it was simply that the spirit would leave me alone if I did thus & so.
To what degree did such "classic" cultural references, mingled with all the powerful drugs kids were feeding upon at the time, in that particular climate of experimentation - play upon the impressionable minds of kids? To what extent did these all work together to shape our very perspectives - our interpretations -our experiences - on what was regarded "evil"?
There is no doubt that these cultural references played big time upon our minds - that's the way culture works for everyone in every culture - but so what? After some point of reading those books on ESP, I definitely believed in ESP - but so what? That doesn't mean ESP is totally imaginary. The first time that I remember any kind of ESP experience actually happening - my friend & I smoked a joint & walked into the local bar to sit in the cool, have a beer, & talk. We must have been talking about ESP, I don't know, but at one point, my friend asked me if I believed in ESP. I don't remember for sure, but I think I said, "I don't know," & I do remember for sure that he then said, "Okay, tell me what three digit number I'm thinking of." This number came to mind, & I said it. He looked amazed & said I was correct. What are the odds? I guess 1 in 900 (999-99). I told him he was full of ...., thought of a three digit number, & told him to tell me what three digit number I was thinking of. And he did. What are the odds (900 X 900)? We went back & forth quickly, each of us doing it 2 or 3 more times. It was always exactly correct (odds? forget about it). Then he asked me what beer he was thinking of, & I was correct. And it stopped - just wouldn't work anymore. The next day, I was over another friend's house, & I heard this friend from the bar and another friend coming up his walkway talking. I said to myself, "Okay, if this thing is real, (I'd mention his name, but people here know him) is going to walk in the door and say "27." And with that (without me saying a word to him, not even "hi"), he walked in the door, pointed at me, and said "27."
Our very experiences shaped by cultural references & drugs? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it. By the time we got to acid - I remember this one time, another friend (also known by many on gs, & ordained) & I didn't even need to talk with one another for hours. Either I'd be thinking, & he'd be hanging out in my thoughts watching/listening/whatever you want to call it (there is no word I know of), or he'd be thinking & I'd be tagging along on his thought threads, or we'd both be riding the same thought waves. Still, it was piddle stuff. I was a novice at level almost nothing. You know, there are 5 people reading this thread right now (actually there is no one except me here), everyone go get a deck of cards, shuffle them, pick a card without looking at it, put it face down - then I tell everyone what their card is. Everyone is amazed. It is nothing - a cheap parlor trick, not mine but the spirit's. But there were results, & they weren't imaginary even thought they were definitley part of the culture & the drugs.
BTW, I did something like that at a party once - I believe all the 5 people later got in the Word.
What went through a Wayfer's mind at the mention of "witchcraft"?
Now that brings up an interesting point. As I said in my last post (I think), I had no idea that what I was fooling around with or what I encountered in the "disembodied voice" was the spirit of witchraft, but that's what Heefner identified it as, & he knew it because he heard it himself. Later, I read a book called "Deliver Us From Evil," by Don Basham that documented his growth into a ministry of deliverance in which he talks in different places about that banshee laugh I spoke about. Here is one excerpt:
"...Then she [a woman who believed in ESP & practiced it] opened her eyes. What gazed out at us was less than human.
Now from her lips came an eerie laugh, more sinister than anything I had ever heard. It sent shivers all the way down my spine. I didn't know what to do but hang onto her arm. I was shaken to my very depths.
"That laugh!" Maxwell Whyte exclaimed. "I'd recognize it anywhere. Witchcraft!"
The author does a really fine job of communicating the field of deliverance from spiritual captivity. I recommend the book. I sent a copy to Craig. During the next advanced class, I saw it on the junk (is that what it was called?) table.
So, is all this about the particular laugh of the witchcraft spirit coincidence?
I guess it could be. After all, I suppose we all had seen "The Wizard of Oz," & heard the laugh of the Wicked Witch of the West.
But consider that it all played out the same particular way in all of us ESP believers.
I don't mean to suggest that everything regarding the unseen realm - including your experiences - is "imaginary". I have not personally given up on the belief of the existence of a spiritual realm,
despite my own seeming lack of supernatural experiences on the level of your own and others here.
Nonetheless, I do find it interesting how the unseen realm is open to interpretation (perhaps no big surprise). One person's God may be another person's demon, according to their cultural or religious perception. There were even early Christian/Gnostic movements which construed the OT deity akin to Satan,
believing that Jesus introduced a new God of love which transcended the old. Over the years I've been compelled to believe that they were onto something, considering the poor outcome of a many orthodox Christian movements which hardly reflected the gentle, loving disposition of Christ.
I remember well Don Bashan's "Deliver Us from Evil", and may even still have a copy somewhere in my closet archives. It's funny, but what I most distinctly recall about that book, was the author's battle with his "evil eye' television...
I must confirm Oak's earlier observation concerning modern Wicca/Witchcraft, -having been married to a "witch" for the past 16 years,- as not being as "exciting or glamorous' in neither a positive or negative sense as made out to be by the media, or by any number of Christian exposes.
There were no drugs or games or any religious beliefs involved. There was one of my sons aggravating his mother at the dinner table. getting occasional slight shakes, seemingly without much attention from anyone but me.
Later after the computer had to be reformated he was on a site that was promoting some thinking that was not good. I asked him about it and as he looked at me I saw what was indeed a sign of bad spiritual air. i told him not to go to those sites anymore and that he would loose his computer if he did.
He got real mad and started breathing heavily. so I sent him to his room.
Shortly afterwards I went up to reenforce this communication we were having. He was still breathing heavily and saying angry things. He was laying on his stomach with his face in his hands. Breathing heavily and working it up further.
I reached around him and wrapped both arms around him and held him close and told him to keep breathing heavily and relax a little. I prayed or rather told this bad air to get out and leave my son right now. My son said 'what is this an exorcism', I told him to relax and continue to breath and demanded that this leave that moment.
As I was still holding him, he suddenly slowed his breathing and as if awkening out of a bad dream he asked me 'what just happened dad'. I told him to not worry about it and get some sleep and rest and that I loved him.
He said 'ok' and that he loved me and would do what i said. So he went to sleep.
Since then he has never gotten to the point he was that night. If you knew my son, you would know what a loving guy he is. And i know that kids pitch fits and get mad no matter how loving their nature may be, but this was different.
I had no idea what i was doing but i knew the great love it takes to work. I knew there was something there and i knew that it had left. And it has never been back despite my fear for sometime afterwards that it might.
It was not a challenging counterfeit. It was not close to the genuine so as to hide. It was shown to me, even in my ignorance what to do without knowing why or what to do next. I wasn't looking for it or suspecting anything. But there it was, and there it went by the mercy and grace of our Lord.
I cannot say that it was a counterfeit. Never saw it as that. What I did see was the hand of God at work and yielding to His will in this situation. Out of love only, not from knowledge that's for sure.
I have seen other things that are not related to my son. I have yet to figure some of them out, but beginning to see more of what i saw. and continue to see. These things are a growing experience and a revealing of that which cannot be seen without the spirit at work, subject to the will of God.
Been busy guys & gals. I'm kind of responding to Tom & George. But I've read the posts I missed, thanks to my email working.
Tom, I acknowledge that you think the siddhis are devilish. George, I've not seen the yogic-flying. I've been in the next room and I could hear a couple of ladies hopping and giggling.
my understanding of Hinduism is that the attitude, for the most part, is to think very little about hindu-occultism (siddhis). Why? because these powers puff-up an ego that the hindu is trying to eliminate.
there is a full house of spirit beings in the hindu theology. Good, Bad, and Neutral. Angels & Demons.
whenever I would come in contact with the same types of spirits that I was once involved with, & I DID come in contact with them at various times, it wasn't the human potential that I once thought it was that I was coming in contact with, it was devil spirits active in situations and people that I was with. They knew me, & I knew them. And they do submit to the authority of Jesus - I just didn't realize it then.
I believe you Tom. I did a lot of pot and Bible. smoked a lot of weed, read a lot of Bible. There are any number of spiritual beings swirling around us. good, bad, indifferent. not to mention nature-spirits (elementals). I have only two lame ones. But two true events. First, as a pothead at Ball State I couldn't wake for class. I uttered (half asleep) "Please wake me in time for class in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." then I went back to sleep. in my dream an Angel stood by me and pulled on my lower lip. I woke and my lower lip WAS being pulled. To this day I suspect the Angel (although being nice enough to do this -thankyou Deva) was a little repulsed to have to wake me. Second was years later. A college drop out. working part time in the meat department of a local supermarket, I was totally stoned. I was looking at an open Bible looking at the book of Job. I was totally fried. I was in a dormant trance from the drug. And I was drooling onto the pages of the open Bible on the book of Job. I felt a finger pushing on my head. The side of my head. the invisible finger pushed hard enough to move my head up straight.
these are inane and lame, I know. But there it is. those are low points. High points can wait for other posts.
there is always a difference between what actually happened
and our interpretation of what happened
and hopefully, our interpretation is subject to evolve
but there is some good science happening in these fields
though slowly, due to old institutional fears and prejudices
and there is good and useful practical religious tools from history
even if the language is dated
but another problem
is when something actually happens
and so someone interprets the experience (as we all must)
but another does not agree with the interpretation
but they go to far and say "nothing really happened"
and "nothing ever really happens"
but this is not helpful at all
i would even go as far as to call it potentially harmful
cuz if something happened
and my sanity demands that i interpret it
yet social pressure demands that i forget it...
...something is going to be repressed
and pain that is not transformed
is always transmitted
just my 2 cents
Todd
Todd, that's not too shabby observation of the situation. I finally disgarded all my Way stuff, so I don't have any of the "discerning of spirits" stuff any more. TWI whole attempt to deal with the Adversary was doomed from the start. First they wanted everything fanatically chained to chapter-and-verse in the King James and second, they went on and on about the devil and devilish experiences, alleged and maybe true. But they didn't give equal attention to all the other spiritual beings that were good. Under fanatical Biblism they admit to Angels. But in that constricted mindset no one was capable of exploring the good side of spiritual beings. It was only the Saint against spiritual wickedness from on High. Christianity seems to have removed half the equation.
I must confirm Oak's earlier observation concerning modern Wicca/Witchcraft, -having been married to a "witch" for the past 16 years,- as not being as "exciting or glamorous' in neither a positive or negative sense as made out to be by the media, or by any number of Christian exposes.
I think that "Christianity," for the most part, has lost the natural realm to the Adversary by default. Having unnaturally dubbed nature devilish, they have not only cut themselves off from their heavenly father's creation which he described as very good, but have also almost entirely cut themselves off from any spiritual communication that they might have received from God. This is because basically the only way man learns is by associating something with something else that he has previously experienced in his environment (nature); therefore, the only way God can communicate with man is via the associations he has built up concerning the natural world.
Whatever happened to Jesus' promise of zoe, life in all its forms? "Christians" have sterilized life out of their experience in the name of purity. They are without root to their own natures.
Jesus didn't do this; he continually used the patterns of life in the natural world to describe the ways of the spirit. Via association, life describes life.
On the other hand, labels without the rich qualifying context of life, rape reality of the real. For example, what is a Wiccan? I've known Wiccans to absolutely deny identification with witchcraft because they know that what the word witchcraft brings to the minds of those to whom they are describing themselves is not who they are. Some describe themselves as merely living in harmony with the forces of nature. Others confess to worshipping nature. Others other things.
Culturally imposed labels notwithstanding, it is what it is. Another example is the Native American. Traditionally in deep association with the earth's cycles, many of them believe in many spirits, but also in The Great Spirit, & many in the Son of the Great Spirit sacrificed and raised, knowing of this from their own prophecies many years before the coming of Europeans. I figure it is all real.
"to see that nothing really is as it appears but as we are ready so shall we be ready...."
That's profound.
Great account of your son. I had somthing similar to that happen to my son. Way to handle it brother.
"and somehow i keep posting here don't really know why...."
Deep seated abilities promise rich experience of love, power, & wholeness. I'm thankful for your contributions.
But in that constricted mindset no one was capable of exploring the good side of spiritual beings. It was only the Saint against spiritual wickedness from on High. Christianity seems to have removed half the equation.
Good point - now wasn't that lame & egotistical of twi?
It was lame and arrogant. They had lots of company. I didn't have a clue of the Angel side of things until I began to study Albert Schweitzer. There is so much to the whole theology of Judaism and Christianity. Anyone who practised the fanatical Bible-only mentality was/is being seriously ripped off. In fact I had to finally conclude that as powerful as the Christian fellowship can & should be, they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. At best there is Universal realities that exist in Christianity that they share with Judaism, Islam, Gnosticism, Hinduism, Budhism, and the like. It finally locked for me with SriVyuha and Perennial Philosophy. As for "the challenging counterfeit." that is incomplete methinks. There is good and bad spiritual beings and the like. Typical western Christianity is not capable of looking at it fully due to their own tunnel vision.
It was lame and arrogant. They had lots of company. I didn't have a clue of the Angel side of things until I began to study Albert Schweitzer. There is so much to the whole theology of Judaism and Christianity. Anyone who practised the fanatical Bible-only mentality was/is being seriously ripped off. In fact I had to finally conclude that as powerful as the Christian fellowship can & should be, they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. At best there is Universal realities that exist in Christianity that they share with Judaism, Islam, Gnosticism, Hinduism, Budhism, and the like. It finally locked for me with SriVyuha and Perennial Philosophy. As for "the challenging counterfeit." that is incomplete methinks. There is good and bad spiritual beings and the like. Typical western Christianity is not capable of looking at it fully due to their own tunnel vision.
Carl
Carl,
I think it is sort of like Bruce Lee's description of learning the martial arts. Before a man learns the classic moves of any style, a kick is a kick, and a punch is a punch. Then, as one studies a style, it interferes with what he already knows to the point that he doesn't know what kicks and punches are any more, and they don't flow for him in a fight. Later, when he has studied the style to the point that he has made it his own, again, a kick is a kick, and a punch is a punch - only now he is performing them much better.
Broaden the principle. All the forms we usually call martial, all the different styles of karate, jujitsu, judo, even Tae Bo, Tai Chi, & Yoga all have their roots in the same soil, the same soil that nourishes all the different forms of Chinese medicine. They are not all the same, but they all work together and deal with the same elements.
The fanatical Bible-only mentality is not a product of the Bible, but of fanatics. The less real their relationship is with the Word, the more fanatically they demand exclusive adherence to it. As Shakespeare said, "The Lady doth protest too much, methinks..." Methinks the Ladies doth protest so much - they're just a bunch of whores. This violent protestation was the way of the religous leaders, not the way of Jesus, the believer's example, the Word in the flesh, who spoke to spirits, to disease, to body parts, to trees, to storms.
Is that the distant music of the leaves of trees clapping that I hear? Is that the ululation of the very rocks rejoicing?
The wisdom of the Great Spirit is in all the earth, and wisdom's delight is to rejoice with the sons of men.
Various movements of early Christianity (particularly the gnostic ones which IMO produced the earlier Pauline literature) were far from sharing the same appreciation for "nature" as has been expressed here.
To the contrary, Christianity began as a "revolt" against "the world" - overthrowing such conventions as had been used to rationalize suppressions and segregations according to race, gender and social classes.
Sorry gentlemen, but the "wisdom" of nature has resulted toward the most sinister ends, even down to the present day. The "wisdom of nature" has even bestowed a many genocides and sufferings, whether through wars or through tsunamis.
To paraphrase Marcion: "To be sure, this world is a grand work, worthy of a god. Yet the Supreme God has a creation of His own, and His own world, and His own sky. One work is sufficient for our God: He has delivered man by His supreme and most excellent goodness, which is preferable to the creation of all the locusts. A primary and perfect goodness is shed voluntarily and freely upon strangers without any obligation of friendship, on the principle that we are bidden to love our enemies, who as such on that very account are strangers to us."
That's why I, an "amputee", armed with the earlier Marcionite understanding of Christianity, can visit sites such as this - http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm - and immediately see the shortcomings in their (admittedly, very strong) arguments. But athiests tend to be just as ignorant as a many Christians in their understanding of early Christian beliefs.
God visited this world only once in human history, and opened a pathway of liberation for man's soul from this world and its sick creator. Other than the salvation of our souls, initiated by the Stranger 2,000 years ago, the higher God has had nothing to do with this world. All that the Supreme God intended to accomplish - the salvation of the souls of humanity, and their liberation and transfer into a new world of the unknown God - not this one- - He accomplished through Christ 2,000 years ago.
All that stuff about God's role in nature would come later, thanks to the strong Greek and Roman preoccupation with the perfection of the cosmos. All the interpolations in Paul's text of Romans - including the transparant un-pauline garbage in Romans ch.1 used to justify bigotry and hatred (initially against the eunuchs of the rival Marcionite church, and later, homosexuals) would come later.
The Bible is very conflicted on its views of nature, and so naturally, believers.
But to understand why, one must attempt to recognize the struggles that transpired behind its pages,
among the world-lovers and the world-despisers.
"To hate the world" (recall many things in "John") served a very good purpose for its time; but in certain respects, it is an attitude out of step in our current world-view, when considering issues relating to the environment. But applied in terms of the "world" of human affairs - an "overthrow' of the world and its conventions still packs a powerful punch.
One of the problems I had with the Word when I first came to fellowship was in I John where we are told to love not the world. I went to one of the believers and said as much & told her that I loved nature, thought it was created by God, & couldn't see hating it. She responded that she believed that was not talking about God's creation, but about the systems of the world. Later, I learned from various places in the Word that she was correct.
Ephesians 6:12 Â For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
It is not the creation we wrestle against, but the rulers of the darkness of it.
1 John 2:16 Â For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Colossians 2:8 Â Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
There is nothing wrong with the rudimentary elements of the world; God saw everything that he had made, and it was very good. We are just supposed to be aware that vain people can deceive us through traditions and philosophies patterned or styled after those elements that are not according to Christ. Most Native Americans lived with a deep recognition of their connectedness to the earth and an awareness of a spiritual world. Some worshipped some of the various spirits; others worshipped the Great Spirit and let none other take His place.
God made everything very good, but all the foundations are out of course. It's all waiting to be liberated. Listen to the trees. Tell them of a foundation that will not pass away when the sons of God will liberate them with their glory. If you are silent, the stones will cry out.
Psalms 69:34 Â Let heaven and earth praise him; The seas, and everything that moves therein (not just people)!
I think a God got nailed to a cross and died. So another,-another comforter could come.
John 14:
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Those of this world couldn't see it. But Jesus became one with the Father not the God of genesis. Jesus could see it because he became and was not of this world.
Jesus overcame this world.
John 16:32-33
32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
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Oh, and re: "Yogic Flying",
Uh, have you ever seen this particular ability demonstrated? It's, uh, less than overwhelming. Somehow hopping in the lotus position is still just hopping to me. But then I am already sold out to the "other side"...
I used to think that I could see through walls as a kid, and read people's minds, and even control other's actions. Later - once I understood what was "really" going on - I believed I could cast out demons and perform miraculous healing. I convinced myself that I had actually performed "astral projection" and seen auras and the like.
But, like Danny, as I've gotten older all of the supernatural spiritual stuff that I "knew" about and the little that I had supposedly done myself somehow slowly morphed into events that could easily fit within the realm of the known laws of physics. Yeah, and life has become a bit more mundane, but far more understandable. Imagine what it would be like if "spirits" really could override physics at their will.
That would be a strange world indeed...
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Tom
Well, thank you much, Danny.
"Not even so much as a disembodied voice." Actually, the disembodied voice was the scary one.
Before that, I wasn't aware that I was encountering anything - I thought that the things that were happening were all part of the great human potential, &, for the most part, I thought that I was in control of my growing utilization of that potential; although, sometimes, & more & more, I obviously was totally without control in the midst of powerful & damaging phenomena that I perceived as my own life issues - now I view those phenomena as parlor tricks with me as the dupe.
And after that "disembodied voice," anything I encountered was via spiritual eyes, & I was in control, &, more & more, I learned how complete was that control.
"Prior to the drugs, prior to twi" That's a little hard to answer. I sniffed glue more often than not all the way through the 6th grade. I didn't watch a lot of gothic/horror flicks after Dracula & Frankenstein; although, I've always had a thing for vampire stories. I did read a lot of sci-fi books, especially books involving ESP abilities.
RE: "featuring the devil striking a bargain of one form or another in exchange for the soul of a person being enticed." Actually, the deal wasn't for my soul; it was simply that the spirit would leave me alone if I did thus & so.
There is no doubt that these cultural references played big time upon our minds - that's the way culture works for everyone in every culture - but so what? After some point of reading those books on ESP, I definitely believed in ESP - but so what? That doesn't mean ESP is totally imaginary. The first time that I remember any kind of ESP experience actually happening - my friend & I smoked a joint & walked into the local bar to sit in the cool, have a beer, & talk. We must have been talking about ESP, I don't know, but at one point, my friend asked me if I believed in ESP. I don't remember for sure, but I think I said, "I don't know," & I do remember for sure that he then said, "Okay, tell me what three digit number I'm thinking of." This number came to mind, & I said it. He looked amazed & said I was correct. What are the odds? I guess 1 in 900 (999-99). I told him he was full of ...., thought of a three digit number, & told him to tell me what three digit number I was thinking of. And he did. What are the odds (900 X 900)? We went back & forth quickly, each of us doing it 2 or 3 more times. It was always exactly correct (odds? forget about it). Then he asked me what beer he was thinking of, & I was correct. And it stopped - just wouldn't work anymore. The next day, I was over another friend's house, & I heard this friend from the bar and another friend coming up his walkway talking. I said to myself, "Okay, if this thing is real, (I'd mention his name, but people here know him) is going to walk in the door and say "27." And with that (without me saying a word to him, not even "hi"), he walked in the door, pointed at me, and said "27."
Our very experiences shaped by cultural references & drugs? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it. By the time we got to acid - I remember this one time, another friend (also known by many on gs, & ordained) & I didn't even need to talk with one another for hours. Either I'd be thinking, & he'd be hanging out in my thoughts watching/listening/whatever you want to call it (there is no word I know of), or he'd be thinking & I'd be tagging along on his thought threads, or we'd both be riding the same thought waves. Still, it was piddle stuff. I was a novice at level almost nothing. You know, there are 5 people reading this thread right now (actually there is no one except me here), everyone go get a deck of cards, shuffle them, pick a card without looking at it, put it face down - then I tell everyone what their card is. Everyone is amazed. It is nothing - a cheap parlor trick, not mine but the spirit's. But there were results, & they weren't imaginary even thought they were definitley part of the culture & the drugs.
BTW, I did something like that at a party once - I believe all the 5 people later got in the Word.
Now that brings up an interesting point. As I said in my last post (I think), I had no idea that what I was fooling around with or what I encountered in the "disembodied voice" was the spirit of witchraft, but that's what Heefner identified it as, & he knew it because he heard it himself. Later, I read a book called "Deliver Us From Evil," by Don Basham that documented his growth into a ministry of deliverance in which he talks in different places about that banshee laugh I spoke about. Here is one excerpt:
"...Then she [a woman who believed in ESP & practiced it] opened her eyes. What gazed out at us was less than human.
Now from her lips came an eerie laugh, more sinister than anything I had ever heard. It sent shivers all the way down my spine. I didn't know what to do but hang onto her arm. I was shaken to my very depths.
"That laugh!" Maxwell Whyte exclaimed. "I'd recognize it anywhere. Witchcraft!"
The author does a really fine job of communicating the field of deliverance from spiritual captivity. I recommend the book. I sent a copy to Craig. During the next advanced class, I saw it on the junk (is that what it was called?) table.
So, is all this about the particular laugh of the witchcraft spirit coincidence?
I guess it could be. After all, I suppose we all had seen "The Wizard of Oz," & heard the laugh of the Wicked Witch of the West.
But consider that it all played out the same particular way in all of us ESP believers.
What are the odds?
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TheInvisibleDan
Hi Tom,
I don't mean to suggest that everything regarding the unseen realm - including your experiences - is "imaginary". I have not personally given up on the belief of the existence of a spiritual realm,
despite my own seeming lack of supernatural experiences on the level of your own and others here.
Nonetheless, I do find it interesting how the unseen realm is open to interpretation (perhaps no big surprise). One person's God may be another person's demon, according to their cultural or religious perception. There were even early Christian/Gnostic movements which construed the OT deity akin to Satan,
believing that Jesus introduced a new God of love which transcended the old. Over the years I've been compelled to believe that they were onto something, considering the poor outcome of a many orthodox Christian movements which hardly reflected the gentle, loving disposition of Christ.
I remember well Don Bashan's "Deliver Us from Evil", and may even still have a copy somewhere in my closet archives. It's funny, but what I most distinctly recall about that book, was the author's battle with his "evil eye' television...
I must confirm Oak's earlier observation concerning modern Wicca/Witchcraft, -having been married to a "witch" for the past 16 years,- as not being as "exciting or glamorous' in neither a positive or negative sense as made out to be by the media, or by any number of Christian exposes.
Danny
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dancing
There were no drugs or games or any religious beliefs involved. There was one of my sons aggravating his mother at the dinner table. getting occasional slight shakes, seemingly without much attention from anyone but me.
Later after the computer had to be reformated he was on a site that was promoting some thinking that was not good. I asked him about it and as he looked at me I saw what was indeed a sign of bad spiritual air. i told him not to go to those sites anymore and that he would loose his computer if he did.
He got real mad and started breathing heavily. so I sent him to his room.
Shortly afterwards I went up to reenforce this communication we were having. He was still breathing heavily and saying angry things. He was laying on his stomach with his face in his hands. Breathing heavily and working it up further.
I reached around him and wrapped both arms around him and held him close and told him to keep breathing heavily and relax a little. I prayed or rather told this bad air to get out and leave my son right now. My son said 'what is this an exorcism', I told him to relax and continue to breath and demanded that this leave that moment.
As I was still holding him, he suddenly slowed his breathing and as if awkening out of a bad dream he asked me 'what just happened dad'. I told him to not worry about it and get some sleep and rest and that I loved him.
He said 'ok' and that he loved me and would do what i said. So he went to sleep.
Since then he has never gotten to the point he was that night. If you knew my son, you would know what a loving guy he is. And i know that kids pitch fits and get mad no matter how loving their nature may be, but this was different.
I had no idea what i was doing but i knew the great love it takes to work. I knew there was something there and i knew that it had left. And it has never been back despite my fear for sometime afterwards that it might.
It was not a challenging counterfeit. It was not close to the genuine so as to hide. It was shown to me, even in my ignorance what to do without knowing why or what to do next. I wasn't looking for it or suspecting anything. But there it was, and there it went by the mercy and grace of our Lord.
I cannot say that it was a counterfeit. Never saw it as that. What I did see was the hand of God at work and yielding to His will in this situation. Out of love only, not from knowledge that's for sure.
I have seen other things that are not related to my son. I have yet to figure some of them out, but beginning to see more of what i saw. and continue to see. These things are a growing experience and a revealing of that which cannot be seen without the spirit at work, subject to the will of God.
only love can see...
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Carl Smuda
Been busy guys & gals. I'm kind of responding to Tom & George. But I've read the posts I missed, thanks to my email working.
Tom, I acknowledge that you think the siddhis are devilish. George, I've not seen the yogic-flying. I've been in the next room and I could hear a couple of ladies hopping and giggling.
my understanding of Hinduism is that the attitude, for the most part, is to think very little about hindu-occultism (siddhis). Why? because these powers puff-up an ego that the hindu is trying to eliminate.
there is a full house of spirit beings in the hindu theology. Good, Bad, and Neutral. Angels & Demons.
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sirguessalot
there is always a difference between what actually happened
and our interpretation of what happened
and hopefully, our interpretation is subject to evolve
but there is some good science happening in these fields
though slowly, due to old institutional fears and prejudices
and there is good and useful practical religious tools from history
even if the language is dated
but another problem
is when something actually happens
and so someone interprets the experience (as we all must)
but another does not agree with the interpretation
but they go to far and say "nothing really happened"
and "nothing ever really happens"
but this is not helpful at all
i would even go as far as to call it potentially harmful
cuz if something happened
and my sanity demands that i interpret it
yet social pressure demands that i forget it...
...something is going to be repressed
and pain that is not transformed
is always transmitted
just my 2 cents
Todd
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Carl Smuda
these are inane and lame, I know. But there it is. those are low points. High points can wait for other posts.
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Carl Smuda
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dancing
thanks t, always a welcome word
to see that nothing really is as it appears
but as we are ready so shall we be ready....
and somehow i keep posting here
don't really know why....
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Tom
I think that "Christianity," for the most part, has lost the natural realm to the Adversary by default. Having unnaturally dubbed nature devilish, they have not only cut themselves off from their heavenly father's creation which he described as very good, but have also almost entirely cut themselves off from any spiritual communication that they might have received from God. This is because basically the only way man learns is by associating something with something else that he has previously experienced in his environment (nature); therefore, the only way God can communicate with man is via the associations he has built up concerning the natural world.
Whatever happened to Jesus' promise of zoe, life in all its forms? "Christians" have sterilized life out of their experience in the name of purity. They are without root to their own natures.
Jesus didn't do this; he continually used the patterns of life in the natural world to describe the ways of the spirit. Via association, life describes life.
On the other hand, labels without the rich qualifying context of life, rape reality of the real. For example, what is a Wiccan? I've known Wiccans to absolutely deny identification with witchcraft because they know that what the word witchcraft brings to the minds of those to whom they are describing themselves is not who they are. Some describe themselves as merely living in harmony with the forces of nature. Others confess to worshipping nature. Others other things.
Culturally imposed labels notwithstanding, it is what it is. Another example is the Native American. Traditionally in deep association with the earth's cycles, many of them believe in many spirits, but also in The Great Spirit, & many in the Son of the Great Spirit sacrificed and raised, knowing of this from their own prophecies many years before the coming of Europeans. I figure it is all real.
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Tom
"to see that nothing really is as it appears but as we are ready so shall we be ready...."
That's profound.
Great account of your son. I had somthing similar to that happen to my son. Way to handle it brother.
"and somehow i keep posting here don't really know why...."
Deep seated abilities promise rich experience of love, power, & wholeness. I'm thankful for your contributions.
Good point - now wasn't that lame & egotistical of twi?
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Carl Smuda
Tom,
It was lame and arrogant. They had lots of company. I didn't have a clue of the Angel side of things until I began to study Albert Schweitzer. There is so much to the whole theology of Judaism and Christianity. Anyone who practised the fanatical Bible-only mentality was/is being seriously ripped off. In fact I had to finally conclude that as powerful as the Christian fellowship can & should be, they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. At best there is Universal realities that exist in Christianity that they share with Judaism, Islam, Gnosticism, Hinduism, Budhism, and the like. It finally locked for me with SriVyuha and Perennial Philosophy. As for "the challenging counterfeit." that is incomplete methinks. There is good and bad spiritual beings and the like. Typical western Christianity is not capable of looking at it fully due to their own tunnel vision.
Carl
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Tom
Carl,
I think it is sort of like Bruce Lee's description of learning the martial arts. Before a man learns the classic moves of any style, a kick is a kick, and a punch is a punch. Then, as one studies a style, it interferes with what he already knows to the point that he doesn't know what kicks and punches are any more, and they don't flow for him in a fight. Later, when he has studied the style to the point that he has made it his own, again, a kick is a kick, and a punch is a punch - only now he is performing them much better.
Broaden the principle. All the forms we usually call martial, all the different styles of karate, jujitsu, judo, even Tae Bo, Tai Chi, & Yoga all have their roots in the same soil, the same soil that nourishes all the different forms of Chinese medicine. They are not all the same, but they all work together and deal with the same elements.
The fanatical Bible-only mentality is not a product of the Bible, but of fanatics. The less real their relationship is with the Word, the more fanatically they demand exclusive adherence to it. As Shakespeare said, "The Lady doth protest too much, methinks..." Methinks the Ladies doth protest so much - they're just a bunch of whores. This violent protestation was the way of the religous leaders, not the way of Jesus, the believer's example, the Word in the flesh, who spoke to spirits, to disease, to body parts, to trees, to storms.
Is that the distant music of the leaves of trees clapping that I hear? Is that the ululation of the very rocks rejoicing?
The wisdom of the Great Spirit is in all the earth, and wisdom's delight is to rejoice with the sons of men.
Peace,
Tom
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TheInvisibleDan
Various movements of early Christianity (particularly the gnostic ones which IMO produced the earlier Pauline literature) were far from sharing the same appreciation for "nature" as has been expressed here.
To the contrary, Christianity began as a "revolt" against "the world" - overthrowing such conventions as had been used to rationalize suppressions and segregations according to race, gender and social classes.
Sorry gentlemen, but the "wisdom" of nature has resulted toward the most sinister ends, even down to the present day. The "wisdom of nature" has even bestowed a many genocides and sufferings, whether through wars or through tsunamis.
To paraphrase Marcion: "To be sure, this world is a grand work, worthy of a god. Yet the Supreme God has a creation of His own, and His own world, and His own sky. One work is sufficient for our God: He has delivered man by His supreme and most excellent goodness, which is preferable to the creation of all the locusts. A primary and perfect goodness is shed voluntarily and freely upon strangers without any obligation of friendship, on the principle that we are bidden to love our enemies, who as such on that very account are strangers to us."
That's why I, an "amputee", armed with the earlier Marcionite understanding of Christianity, can visit sites such as this - http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm - and immediately see the shortcomings in their (admittedly, very strong) arguments. But athiests tend to be just as ignorant as a many Christians in their understanding of early Christian beliefs.
God visited this world only once in human history, and opened a pathway of liberation for man's soul from this world and its sick creator. Other than the salvation of our souls, initiated by the Stranger 2,000 years ago, the higher God has had nothing to do with this world. All that the Supreme God intended to accomplish - the salvation of the souls of humanity, and their liberation and transfer into a new world of the unknown God - not this one- - He accomplished through Christ 2,000 years ago.
All that stuff about God's role in nature would come later, thanks to the strong Greek and Roman preoccupation with the perfection of the cosmos. All the interpolations in Paul's text of Romans - including the transparant un-pauline garbage in Romans ch.1 used to justify bigotry and hatred (initially against the eunuchs of the rival Marcionite church, and later, homosexuals) would come later.
The Bible is very conflicted on its views of nature, and so naturally, believers.
But to understand why, one must attempt to recognize the struggles that transpired behind its pages,
among the world-lovers and the world-despisers.
"To hate the world" (recall many things in "John") served a very good purpose for its time; but in certain respects, it is an attitude out of step in our current world-view, when considering issues relating to the environment. But applied in terms of the "world" of human affairs - an "overthrow' of the world and its conventions still packs a powerful punch.
Danny
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dancing
I think it's a matter of perspectives Danny, and not two God's and two worlds.
All things are supposed to become new, same things they will just be new.
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TheInvisibleDan
Well, the two Gods is a "perspective" too Clay, albeit not a very popular one these days.
Danny
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dancing
So as this perspective changes of God, even so he lives.
whether of death unto death or life unto life.
He lives in us and is being born in us.
So in a sense he is saving himself while saving us.
Who had to have Jesus killed to bring us life?
The same one that rewarded Jesus with a name above all names.
The plan was God's plan,
the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL.
Two God's if you will....
with the one overcoming the other and knowing it.
The tree of Life.
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TheInvisibleDan
If the "breath" breathed into Adam by the "Prince of the power of the air"
is the image of that deity, then yes, in sense, Jehovah too is being "saved".
It was his intention to kill Jesus but not to bring us life. He despised Him, and even feared Him,because this stranger did not turn out to be the cruel war-like "messiah" of that god's prophecies.
"conceded" more likely if such was the case, with a name even above his own.
"The Aeon" or his archangels would never have had Him crucified had they known.
Their plans did not quite work out as they expected.
Danny
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dancing
I kind of understand Danny,
have to give it some time.
Didn't want to leave you hangin' here...lol...
Clay
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dancing
in considering this chapter, this stands out to me
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
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dancing
the more i read, the more i see Danny,
been reading a bit on gnostic and gnostic/jewish thought
certainly believable.....
wisdom, spirit, like a serpent...
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Tom
One of the problems I had with the Word when I first came to fellowship was in I John where we are told to love not the world. I went to one of the believers and said as much & told her that I loved nature, thought it was created by God, & couldn't see hating it. She responded that she believed that was not talking about God's creation, but about the systems of the world. Later, I learned from various places in the Word that she was correct.
Ephesians 6:12 Â For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
It is not the creation we wrestle against, but the rulers of the darkness of it.
1 John 2:16 Â For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Colossians 2:8 Â Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
There is nothing wrong with the rudimentary elements of the world; God saw everything that he had made, and it was very good. We are just supposed to be aware that vain people can deceive us through traditions and philosophies patterned or styled after those elements that are not according to Christ. Most Native Americans lived with a deep recognition of their connectedness to the earth and an awareness of a spiritual world. Some worshipped some of the various spirits; others worshipped the Great Spirit and let none other take His place.
God made everything very good, but all the foundations are out of course. It's all waiting to be liberated. Listen to the trees. Tell them of a foundation that will not pass away when the sons of God will liberate them with their glory. If you are silent, the stones will cry out.
Psalms 69:34 Â Let heaven and earth praise him; The seas, and everything that moves therein (not just people)!
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dancing
I think a God got nailed to a cross and died. So another,-another comforter could come.
John 14:
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
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dancing
Those of this world couldn't see it. But Jesus became one with the Father not the God of genesis. Jesus could see it because he became and was not of this world.
Jesus overcame this world.
John 16:32-33
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