Faith no longer the "Main Point", Love is.

[free2love]

“Your dad died (you didn't say how) and you hold the RCC responsible for his death. If not "somewhat" responsible, then you imply total responsibility. Because they "lied"? It might be helpful if you said how your father died and what the lie or lies were that directly caused his death.

You hold them (RCC) responsible for his death, because as you said: "...the reason my Catholic father died at the age of 41 was ignorance of the word of God because his church left him ignorant and defenseless”; This implies that the church, in this case the RCC, must be responsible for teaching the word of God perfectly and inerrantly, and that if they did, your father would have not have been "ignorant and defenseless", and therefore would not have died.

If an organized church is to be responsible for teaching the Word perfectly, they must know it perfectly (no one does)”

How he died, his fourth heart attack, in my belief, is not as relevant as when. He was only 41. Obviously people die but when people die before their time I believe it is murder at the devil’s hand and most especially suicide. Responsibility? No, I’m not implying, I am saying outright that the church was totally responsible. Yes, absolutely. It matters not that it was the Catholic church. There is error taught in every Christian church and error is error. God’s word says and Jesus repeated again and again that the doctrines and commandments of men make the word of God of none effect. Religion teaches some of the truth and also teaches doctrines of men, leaving the believers ignorant of the truth to some degree. God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. It’s axiomatic.

Don’t you feel that “the church must be responsible for teaching the word of God perfectly and inerrantly”? If not the church, who do you think should be held responsible?

“…and must also have the authority to teach it. For the church to have the authority there must be a hierarchy of some kind. But you say there is and should be no hierarchy."

That does not necessarily follow. To clarify, I am saying there should be no *man-made* hierarchy. There already is a hierarchy called the body of Christ and Jesus is the head. Not veepee and not the pope.

“Even if a church did teach the word perfectly, there is no guarantee that any particular person would accept and follow it unless obedience to that hierarchal authority was demanded and somehow guaranteed.”

I don’t know what you mean. Guarantee? God doesn’t want obedience out of anything but free will. How would a man-made hierarchy influence whether someone was obedient? Jesus said “My sheep shall know my voice” and that is the only ‘guarantee’ needed.

”I agree with you in principle on the hierarchy issue. I disagree with any kind of clergy/laity division within the "church". I have been studying that for quite a few years and have my own take on that. But I never said the RCC did not have an hierarchy. IMO they have one of strictest and potentially abusive hierarchies in Christendom. But that was not my point at all.”

Nor was it mine.

“You also said: "The spirit-filled believer has "the mind of Christ" and all the faith anyone could ever need and we don't need anyone to tell us how to believe, what to believe, that we're not believing or that we're believing wrongly.

If this is the case, then it cannot be the responsibility of any church or organized religious group to teach people out of their ignorance, but instead the responsibility of the believer himself. Does this not also apply to your father? -- (and to mine who committed suicide?)

Sorry, I disagree. You are saying it is the fault of the victim for being victimized and that just won’t fly. God’s word says to put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand and fight when evil attacks. How can you do that if you don’t even know such armor exists, much less how to use if?

”Which is it? Is a church or it's leaders ultimately responsible for what a person believes, or is it the believer himself? In regards to you dad you seem to be putting 100 percent of the onus upon the church, and for everyone else upon the believer himself. That's my point.”

Sorry, you lost me again. Please explain: “you seem to be putting 100 percent of the onus upon the church, and for everyone else upon the believer himself.” What does that mean?

It seems you are comparing apples and oranges. You may not realize it but what you are saying is really confusing. God said: Heb8:10 "...I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know (ginosko = to know (by experience, or effort) the Lord: for all shall know (oida = to know (intuitively) without effort, to understand) me, from the least to the greatest.”

This verse, and there are many others, shows that in the OT, prior to Pentecost, all men did not have God’s spirit inside as we do now, and God had a very strict hierarchy so that His word could be passed down through his Prophets who DID have the spirit. God also gave authority to those prophets upon whom He placed His spirit but you have to realize this was the determining factor. The people in general had absolutely no clue about God so there had to be someone to say ‘Know the Lord’ because they didn’t. Get it? The difference now is that we all can know God, first hand. We are no longer dependent upon Prophets who have spirit to guide us because we don’t have spirit. We DO have God’s spirit inside us and we CAN understand God. OK? Frankly, I’m surprised I have to explain this to you. You say you’ve studied this for years. This is basic.

Learning to communicate with God is a totally separate issue. We do need to learn the written word. We do need to study. There is a point where we are pretty much ignorant, even though we have the spirit. We need to learn those things that God put in His word to begin to know Him and it’s just fine if we sit down together and share it with each other toward that end. Do you understand the difference?

The verses above refer to this time now when such a hierarchy would no longer be needed because God can speak to any and all of us because we DO have his spirit. Understand? I hope I’ve made it clear.

[Carl Smuda]

What is it you search for Carl?

Dancing, I search for all things perennial. as in perennial philosophy. And I know that "unto the pure all things are pure, and unto them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing pure." But we should not use these reminders as a hiding place from our brains. I've enjoyed reading a lot of the old stuff (that didn't get into the A.D.389 New Testament) because it is a window into the minds of Christians of a different era and culture. It makes this history living and real to me. that doesn't mean I do not recognize the living realities today. The dividing line is what have we realized verses when are we only making-a-mood?

[dancing]

I understand Carl,

Though narrow is the way, there are many entrances.

[Carl Smuda]

Thank you Dancing. Now. As to the author of this thread, Free2Love. Mr. Free2Love. Greetings and God Bless you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ! What it be, how it be, where it be, who it be, how did it get there and what's taking so long? Thank you for inviting me to Grease Spot Cafe. I think I need the change. I don't know why I keep going back to Theologyonline. I lost the fire-in-my-belly for those guys but...I...keep...going...back. So thanks for shaking my cage. God Bless.