To be honest, I can't remember if I heard it first in VPW's or LCM's Advanced Class. Samson "being made sport of" was the reason to believe Jesus was abused, because Jesus "was tempted (suffered) in all ways." Obviously, one could name a lot of SPECIFIC injuries that Jesus did not endure; the magnitude of his suffering would have made him our complete savior. Even if Samson was sexually abused (he may or may not have been), it doesn't mean that Jesus was. Jesus's humiliation would have had to be greater.
Does anyone still have their syllabus or class tapes from "The Harmony of the Gospels," class which was held in Nashville in Jan/Feb of 1984? The question of who taught the "molestation" of Jesus could possibly be on that.
I know that it was being taught to the Way Corps, Staff and root locations. I can still almost picture Da*v* Bed*ard teaching it to us at Emporia in 82/83.
I have heard some teachings on Sampson, but I don't remember it being taught on the Sunday Night Service kinda thing........it was either an advanced class or in residence.
Their teachings on "to know" were just wrong. It doesn't mean to get someone pregnant everytime.
My answer to the original question is "probably not" since that's the way they taught it. So much of their teachings were sensationalism and meant to be different from what you'd get in a denominational church.
No, it wasn't. There is no difference between the audio class and the audio portion of the video class. Both are recordings of the identical events. The source for both is the film.
Craiggers taught on a Sunday service that "mock" and "make sport" were homosexual attacks.
Ok, we already saw that one was just silly.
He taught several times - one, I believe was the AC special on the field. I have my notes and will look it up. Another time was during the Easter season because "Jesus was tempted in ALL things" and "took on ALL sin" so the ALL things had to include homosexual rape.
I'll have to look when I get home. I still have some tapes, too. Maybe it's on one of those.
This is just plain strange.
For Jesus to have been tempted to sin, I can buy.
For Jesus to have been tempted to sin sexually, I can buy.
For Jesus to have been tempted to sin sexually in a homosexual fashion, I can buy (but it's
technically speculation).
If Jesus was raped, he wasn't "tempted"-he was a victim.
If it becomes a matter of "he had to experience all sins to absolve them",
then that means that his brief ministry included all sorts of perversions
and crimes that he personally experienced,
even if he was only an unwilling victim of them and not a willing
participant. Hey, be CONSISTENT in your claim.
Therefore, either homosexual rape has NOTHING to do with the account,
by that reasoning,
or hundreds and hundreds of other things best left unmentioned
Does anyone still have their syllabus or class tapes from "The Harmony of the Gospels," class which was held in Nashville in Jan/Feb of 1984? The question of who taught the "molestation" of Jesus could possibly be on that.
I still have my copy of them both.
The tapes from that deal more with the Acceptable Year of the Lord,
I rembered it being by the Italian Soldiers watch over Jesus . He was lead by the Italiain band and watch over him. I belive it was taught in VPW book Jesus Christ our passover. I belive LCM taught something out of the book about The Italian band taking Jesus. I think it was something to do with them. I think if you do a word search and find Italiain band or soliders they took him meaning they rape him.
I rembered it being by the Italian Soldiers watch over Jesus . He was lead by the Italiain band and watch over him. I belive it was taught in VPW book Jesus Christ our passover. I belive LCM taught something out of the book about The Italian band taking Jesus. I think it was something to do with them. I think if you do a word search and find Italiain band or soliders they took him meaning they rape him.
23 Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, "Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands."
24 When the people saw him, they praised their god, saying,
"Our god has delivered our enemy
into our hands,
the one who laid waste our land
and multiplied our slain."
25 While they were in high spirits, they shouted, "Bring out Samson to entertain us." So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them.
NIV
What ever they had Samson do to entertain them would have to relate to the worship of their false God Dagon. I am frankly not sure what that would all involve. I am at work and don't have time now to examine this, but I am posting some information on Dagon for evaluation purposes.
DAGON
Diminutive (expressing endearment) of dag, "a fish." The male god to which Atargatis corresponds (2 Macc. 12:26), the Syrian goddess with a woman's body and fish's tail, worshipped at Hierapolis and Ascalon. Our fabulous mermaid is derived from this Phoenician idol. She corresponds to the Greek foam-sprung Aphrodite. The divine principle supposed to produce the seeds of all things from moisture. Twice a year, water was brought from distant places and poured into a chasm in the temple, through which the waters of the flood were said to have been drained away (Lucian de Syr. Dea, 883). Derived from tarag, targeto, "an opening," the goddess being also called DERCETO; or else addir, "glorious," and dag-to, "a fish." The tutelary goddess of the first Assyrian dynasty, the name appearing in Tiglath.
Dag-on was the national god of the Philistines, his temples were at Gaza and Ashdod (Judg 16:21-30; 1 Sam 5:5-6). The temple of Dagon, which Samson pulled down, probably resembled a Turkish kiosk, a spacious hall with roof resting in front upon four columns, two at the ends and two close together at the center. Under this hall the Philistine chief men celebrated a sacrificial meal, while the people assembled above upon the balustraded roof. The half-man half-fish form (found in bas-relief at Khorsabad) was natural to maritime coast dwellers. They senselessly joined the human form divine to the beast that perishes, to symbolize nature's vivifying power through water; the Hindu Vishnu; Babylonian Odakon. On the doorway of Sennacherib's palace at Koyunjik there is still in bas-relief representations of Dagon, with the body of a fish but under the fish's head a man's head, and to its tail women's feet joined; and in all the four gigantic slabs the upper part has perished, exactly as 1 Sam 5:4's margin describes: now in the British Museum. The cutting off of Dagon's head and hands before Jehovah's ark, and their lying on the threshold (from whence his devotees afterward did not dare to tread upon it), prefigure the ultimate cutting off of all idols in the great day of Jehovah (Isa 2:11-22). Beth-dagon in Judah and another in Asher (Josh 15:41; 19:27) show the wide extension of this worship. In his temple the Philistines fastened up Saul's head (1 Chron 10:10).
What ever they had Samson do to entertain them would have to relate to the worship of their false God Dagon. I am frankly not sure what that would all involve. I am at work and don't have time now to examine this, but I am posting some information on Dagon for evaluation purposes.
I'm not sure that supposition follows logically.
It is one possibility.
Another possibility is that it relates more to entertaining the crowds
than something specific to Dagon worship.
"Manners and Customs of the Bible" mentioned wrestlers fighting in a cleared
space for the amusement of assembled crowds before an event,
in Algiers.
The Algiers thing was the "floor show."
For all I know, the Philistines had Samson dress in drag
23 Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, "Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands."
24 When the people saw him, they praised their god, saying,
"Our god has delivered our enemy
into our hands,
the one who laid waste our land
and multiplied our slain."
25 While they were in high spirits, they shouted, "Bring out Samson to entertain us." So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them.
NIV
Read the scripture and the immediate context again Wordwolf. They specifically assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon. Also to celebrate saying that "Our god (Dagon) has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands." It clearly says they were thinking about their religion while they shouted, "Bring out Samson to entertain us." The question is, what is involved in the worship of the Dagon religion? Is there anything sexually kinky about it? If not, then there is nothing in these verses to show that Samson was abused sexually. Besides if anyone would have tried to molest him, Samson would have beat the snot out of him or them. Blind or not blind.
And I agree with Bliss. Since Samson was noted for his great strength. Perhaps he entertained them with a show of it.
It would be a little hard for him to beat the snot out of any one bound with fetters of brass not to mention that he had lost his strength according to the record. Vs 28 seems to support this as he prayed for strength only this once.
16:17 That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.
16:18 And when Delilah saw that he had told her all his heart, she sent and called for the lords of the Philistines, saying, Come up this once, for he hath shewed me all his heart. Then the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and brought money in their hand.
16:19 And she made him sleep upon her knees; and she called for a man, and she caused him to shave off the seven locks of his head; and she began to afflict him, and his strength went from him.
16:20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him.
16:21 But the Philistines took him, and put out his eyes, and brought him down to Gaza, and bound him with fetters of brass; and he did grind in the prison house.
16:22 Howbeit the hair of his head began to grow again after he was shaven.
16:23 Then the lords of the Philistines gathered them together for to offer a great sacrifice unto Dagon their god, and to rejoice: for they said, Our god hath delivered Samson our enemy into our hand.
16:24 And when the people saw him, they praised their god: for they said, Our god hath delivered into our hands our enemy, and the destroyer of our country, which slew many of us.
16:25 And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport. And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them sport: and they set him between the pillars.
16:26 And Samson said unto the lad that held him by the hand, Suffer me that I may feel the pillars whereupon the house standeth, that I may lean upon them.
16:27 Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport.
16:28 And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.
Actually Samson got his strength back by the time of Judges 16:25. As I recall Samson had a covenant relationship with God as long as he kept his hair long he would have his great strength. I believe by this time his hair grew back and so did his strength. Besides if he could believe God to bring down the pillars and destroy all the people in the temple he could believe God to defend himself against perverts. No, I do not think there is any scriptural or otherwise historical justification for the belief that Samson was molested. This sounds like something completely made up and may be an indication of where the people or group that thought this up's heads were at.
David I don't think you will as you noted find anything about this subject in that tape set likewise in any of the SNS or TOM I checked the tape logs and VPW never taught on the verse in Judges. I don't recall him ever teaching this subject only Craig.
Mark if Samson had his strength back then what would be the purpose for asking God for something that he already had in vs 28 where he asked just once for strength? And why would he be hanging around anyway why not just leave if he could break the restraints?
Mark if Samson had his strength back then what would be the purpose for asking God for something that he already had in vs 28 where he asked just once for strength? And why would he be hanging around anyway why not just leave if he could break the restraints?
Why so many questions, Whitedove? You can read the account. Surely you know he was blind and could not travel easily. Or perhaps he stayed around to topple the pillars on his enemies. However, since he toppled the pillars he must have regained his strength. He asked for extra strength from God because toppling the pillars would have been unusual at any time in his life. Such a feat has never been done by anyone.
So Whitedove, are you trying to imply that a homosexual act was committed on Samson? And if yes, what do you base this on?
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GeorgeStGeorge
To be honest, I can't remember if I heard it first in VPW's or LCM's Advanced Class. Samson "being made sport of" was the reason to believe Jesus was abused, because Jesus "was tempted (suffered) in all ways." Obviously, one could name a lot of SPECIFIC injuries that Jesus did not endure; the magnitude of his suffering would have made him our complete savior. Even if Samson was sexually abused (he may or may not have been), it doesn't mean that Jesus was. Jesus's humiliation would have had to be greater.
George
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Radar OReilly
Does anyone still have their syllabus or class tapes from "The Harmony of the Gospels," class which was held in Nashville in Jan/Feb of 1984? The question of who taught the "molestation" of Jesus could possibly be on that.
I know that it was being taught to the Way Corps, Staff and root locations. I can still almost picture Da*v* Bed*ard teaching it to us at Emporia in 82/83.
I have heard some teachings on Sampson, but I don't remember it being taught on the Sunday Night Service kinda thing........it was either an advanced class or in residence.
Radar
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waterbuffalo
Their teachings on "to know" were just wrong. It doesn't mean to get someone pregnant everytime.
My answer to the original question is "probably not" since that's the way they taught it. So much of their teachings were sensationalism and meant to be different from what you'd get in a denominational church.
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LG
No, it wasn't. There is no difference between the audio class and the audio portion of the video class. Both are recordings of the identical events. The source for both is the film.
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year2027
God first
Beloved WordWolf
God loves you my dear friend
your welcome
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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WordWolf
A) So VPW DID TEACH THIS.
Good to know.
B) "set at naught"....
Appears in Mark 9:12, and Luke 23:11 referring to Jesus.
Also used in Acts 4:11
"This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
which is become the head of the corner."
Which references
Psalm 118:22
"The stone which the builders refused is become the head
stone of the corner."
Acts 19:27, the union meeting.
"So that not only this our craft is in danger to be
set at nought;
but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be
despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed,
whom all Asia and the world worshippeth."
Romans 14:10.
"But why doest thou judge thy brother? Or why dost thou
set at nought
thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ."
I haven't even opened the Greek yet,
and it looks like his claim lacks merit for serious consideration.
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WordWolf
Ok, we already saw that one was just silly.
This is just plain strange.
For Jesus to have been tempted to sin, I can buy.
For Jesus to have been tempted to sin sexually, I can buy.
For Jesus to have been tempted to sin sexually in a homosexual fashion, I can buy (but it's
technically speculation).
If Jesus was raped, he wasn't "tempted"-he was a victim.
If it becomes a matter of "he had to experience all sins to absolve them",
then that means that his brief ministry included all sorts of perversions
and crimes that he personally experienced,
even if he was only an unwilling victim of them and not a willing
participant. Hey, be CONSISTENT in your claim.
Therefore, either homosexual rape has NOTHING to do with the account,
by that reasoning,
or hundreds and hundreds of other things best left unmentioned
are included by the SAME reasoning.
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dmiller
I still have my copy of them both.
The tapes from that deal more with the Acceptable Year of the Lord,
and the Ordination of the High Priest,
and the Royal Family,
and the Times of Jesus Christ,
rather than this subject.
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WordWolf
Those are the listed topics, I bet.
Have you gone thru them to check if this is mentioned in passing?
It could have been sandwiched in somewhere in less than a minute...
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WordWolf
So,
this concept of a parent and their offspring having conjugal relations
together is one you find distasteful, then.
Me too.
Of course,
neither of us is vpw,
who taught it differently to the corps.
Two different posters have posted here about meetings in the corps
where vpw brought up some supposed tribe in Africa
(which may or may not exist),
and how fathers were the initial partners of their daughters,
(with all that implies)
and that they taught them all about it.
Another poster speculated that vpw got that from the book
"Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex",
but got it WRONG-
in that book, it says the other women in the tribe teach
the young girls.
If that speculation is correct (based on everything we
DO know, I suspect it is correct),
his brain edited what he read, and he projected into
it what he WANTED it to say.
He also-per one previous post- said he thought that
was "beautiful",
which horrified the poster at the time he said it.
(For any of you who might be tempted to speculate
on the practical implications of vpw holding this belief,
I'd like to point out that this is one of the rare subjects
that moderators have edited out,
for reasons that should be clear if you think about it.
So, if you post, post very carefully and don't mention
victims, possible victims, or suspected victims.)
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dmiller
Yup -- those are the listed topics.
I know it isn't in the Acceptable Year (tape 8), because I listened to that not too long ago.
I don't think it is in the Ordination of the High Priest (tapes 9 and 10) by lcm,
since he deals with the mount of transfiguration in those.
Tapes 3 and 4 are Walter teaching about the times of Jesus --
Tapes 1 and 2 are lcm and docvic introducing the week-end,
and teaching about principles for studying the Gospels.
That leaves tapes 5, 6, and 7 where lcm teaches about the ministry of Jesus,
and docvic teaches the plan of redemption.
If this current subject was taught in Sound Out at all --
It might be in those three tapes.
But it's been a while since I last listened to them (those three).
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PAULTONY
I rembered it being by the Italian Soldiers watch over Jesus . He was lead by the Italiain band and watch over him. I belive it was taught in VPW book Jesus Christ our passover. I belive LCM taught something out of the book about The Italian band taking Jesus. I think it was something to do with them. I think if you do a word search and find Italiain band or soliders they took him meaning they rape him.
Paultony
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WordWolf
Thanks.
Ok, let's see..
http://www.biblegateway.com
The word "Italian" appears in the KJV ONCE,
in Acts 10:1. Cornelius (first Gentile to become born again) was a centurion
of the band called the Italian band.
"Italy" comes up 4 times.
Acts 18:2, Aquila & Priscilla are from Italy.
Acts 27:1 & 6, Paul's a prisoner travelling there.
Hebrews 13:24 The Christians in Italy said to say 'hello' for them.
====
Ok, "soldier"...
appears 27 times.
Matthew 8:9, the soldier who wanted Jesus to pray for his man.
(I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word...)
Matthew 27:26-31
"Then released he Barabbas unto them; and when he had scourged Jesus,
he delivered him to be crucified.
Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall,
and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him,
and mocked him, saying 'Hail, King of the Jews!'
And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him,
and put his own rainment on him, and led him away to crucify him."
Ok, they took Jesus, but they took him to a prison area, they didn't
"take" him. We also see the specifics on how they "mocked" him.
They did it by "mocking" him.
Matthew 28:12 Soldiers were bribed to say the disciples stole Jesus' body.
Mark 15:15-17
"And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them,
and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called "Praetorium', and they
call together the whole band.
And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and
put it about his head,"
Different Gospel, same account as before-
where we can see that when they "took" Jesus, they
"led him away into the hall", they didn't "take" him.
Luke 3:14. Soldiers ask Jesus what they should do, conduct-wise.
Luke 7:8 the centurion asking for prayer for his sick man again.
Luke 23:36. Soldiers mock Jesus-who is already up on the cross,
and thus in public and far too high up to rape- and offer him vinegar,
and said "If you're the King of the Jews, save yourself."
(This is called "mocking" by most people.)
Interesting-Luke omits a description of the scourging.
John 19:1-3.
"Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head,
and they put on him a purple robe,
and said 'Hail, King of the Jews!' and they smote him with their hands."
John 19:23-24. The soldiers divided his rainment,
and cast lots for his vesture.
John 19:32 Soldiers come to break the legs of the crucified ones.
John 19:34 A soldier pierces his side with a spear.
=====
Acts 10:7. Cornelius addresses one of his soldiers.
Acts 12:4 Soldiers guard Peter.
Acts 12:6 soldiers guard Peter.
Acts 12:18 soldier react to the event with Peter.
Acts 21:32 & 35. Soldiers apprehend Paul, saving him from the mob.
Acts 23:10. Soldiers apprehend Paul, saving him from another (allo) mob.
Acts 23:31 Soldiers transport prisoner Paul.
Acts 27:31-32, 42. Incidents on the ship with Paul.
Acts 28:16. Paul under house arrest.
II Timothy 2:3-4 Timothy is exhorted to be like a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
That is ALL the usages of the word "soldier" in the New Testament KJV.
That is also ALL the crucifixion accounts in all 4 Gospels.
As we clearly saw, all the "mockings" were "mockings",
and when they "took Jesus", they "took Jesus" somewhere,
they transported a prisoner.
Which most people can read with little difficulty.
This tortured explanation STILL lacks merit.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Judg 16:23-25
23 Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, "Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands."
24 When the people saw him, they praised their god, saying,
"Our god has delivered our enemy
into our hands,
the one who laid waste our land
and multiplied our slain."
25 While they were in high spirits, they shouted, "Bring out Samson to entertain us." So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them.
NIV
What ever they had Samson do to entertain them would have to relate to the worship of their false God Dagon. I am frankly not sure what that would all involve. I am at work and don't have time now to examine this, but I am posting some information on Dagon for evaluation purposes.
DAGON
Diminutive (expressing endearment) of dag, "a fish." The male god to which Atargatis corresponds (2 Macc. 12:26), the Syrian goddess with a woman's body and fish's tail, worshipped at Hierapolis and Ascalon. Our fabulous mermaid is derived from this Phoenician idol. She corresponds to the Greek foam-sprung Aphrodite. The divine principle supposed to produce the seeds of all things from moisture. Twice a year, water was brought from distant places and poured into a chasm in the temple, through which the waters of the flood were said to have been drained away (Lucian de Syr. Dea, 883). Derived from tarag, targeto, "an opening," the goddess being also called DERCETO; or else addir, "glorious," and dag-to, "a fish." The tutelary goddess of the first Assyrian dynasty, the name appearing in Tiglath.
Dag-on was the national god of the Philistines, his temples were at Gaza and Ashdod (Judg 16:21-30; 1 Sam 5:5-6). The temple of Dagon, which Samson pulled down, probably resembled a Turkish kiosk, a spacious hall with roof resting in front upon four columns, two at the ends and two close together at the center. Under this hall the Philistine chief men celebrated a sacrificial meal, while the people assembled above upon the balustraded roof. The half-man half-fish form (found in bas-relief at Khorsabad) was natural to maritime coast dwellers. They senselessly joined the human form divine to the beast that perishes, to symbolize nature's vivifying power through water; the Hindu Vishnu; Babylonian Odakon. On the doorway of Sennacherib's palace at Koyunjik there is still in bas-relief representations of Dagon, with the body of a fish but under the fish's head a man's head, and to its tail women's feet joined; and in all the four gigantic slabs the upper part has perished, exactly as 1 Sam 5:4's margin describes: now in the British Museum. The cutting off of Dagon's head and hands before Jehovah's ark, and their lying on the threshold (from whence his devotees afterward did not dare to tread upon it), prefigure the ultimate cutting off of all idols in the great day of Jehovah (Isa 2:11-22). Beth-dagon in Judah and another in Asher (Josh 15:41; 19:27) show the wide extension of this worship. In his temple the Philistines fastened up Saul's head (1 Chron 10:10).
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright ©1998 by Biblesoft)
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WordWolf
Ok, checking the Greek...
"set at nought"
"exoutheneo":to despise, treat with despite.
"exoudenoo":to reject with contempt, treat with scorn.
Mark 9:12 is exoudenoo.
Luke 23:11 is exoutheneo.
Acts 4:11 is exoutheneo.
Romans 14:10 is exoutheneo.
Exoudenoo occurs only in Mark 9:12.
Exoutheneo is rendered
'set at nought' 3 times
'despise' 6 times
'be least esteemed' one time
'contemptible' one time
the "least esteemed" occurs in I Corinthians 6:4.
"If then ye have judgements of things pertaining to this life, set them to
judge who are least esteemed in the church."
Anyone who reads this and thinks "least esteemed" is more properly
translated "raped" should just check himself into a mental hospital.
"contemptible" is in II Corinthians 10:10.
Speaking of Paul, some people said...
"For his letters, say they, are weighty, and powerful;
but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible."
His speech is raped? Can't shoehorn the lunatic ramblings into
this one, either.
And "despise" appears in I Corinthians 1:28.
"And base things of the world, and things which are despised,
hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to
nought things that are:"
God uses those things to rape the things that exist?
You get the idea.
"Set at nought", by any reasonable attempt to understand the text,
has NOTHING to do with rape, molestation, sodomy,
or anything related to that.
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WordWolf
I'm not sure that supposition follows logically.
It is one possibility.
Another possibility is that it relates more to entertaining the crowds
than something specific to Dagon worship.
"Manners and Customs of the Bible" mentioned wrestlers fighting in a cleared
space for the amusement of assembled crowds before an event,
in Algiers.
The Algiers thing was the "floor show."
For all I know, the Philistines had Samson dress in drag
and do the hula.
(*drums*"LUAU!")
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bliss
Wasn't Sampson the closest any man has been to a real SUPERMAN???
He was known for his strength and fighting abilities.
So if they wanted entertainment, I am sure they wanted to see his herculean display of muscles!!!!
(((ya baby)))) (((ARGGGG))))
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Mark Sanguinetti
Read the scripture and the immediate context again Wordwolf. They specifically assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon. Also to celebrate saying that "Our god (Dagon) has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands." It clearly says they were thinking about their religion while they shouted, "Bring out Samson to entertain us." The question is, what is involved in the worship of the Dagon religion? Is there anything sexually kinky about it? If not, then there is nothing in these verses to show that Samson was abused sexually. Besides if anyone would have tried to molest him, Samson would have beat the snot out of him or them. Blind or not blind.
And I agree with Bliss. Since Samson was noted for his great strength. Perhaps he entertained them with a show of it.
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WhiteDove
It would be a little hard for him to beat the snot out of any one bound with fetters of brass not to mention that he had lost his strength according to the record. Vs 28 seems to support this as he prayed for strength only this once.
16:17 That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.
16:18 And when Delilah saw that he had told her all his heart, she sent and called for the lords of the Philistines, saying, Come up this once, for he hath shewed me all his heart. Then the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and brought money in their hand.
16:19 And she made him sleep upon her knees; and she called for a man, and she caused him to shave off the seven locks of his head; and she began to afflict him, and his strength went from him.
16:20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him.
16:21 But the Philistines took him, and put out his eyes, and brought him down to Gaza, and bound him with fetters of brass; and he did grind in the prison house.
16:22 Howbeit the hair of his head began to grow again after he was shaven.
16:23 Then the lords of the Philistines gathered them together for to offer a great sacrifice unto Dagon their god, and to rejoice: for they said, Our god hath delivered Samson our enemy into our hand.
16:24 And when the people saw him, they praised their god: for they said, Our god hath delivered into our hands our enemy, and the destroyer of our country, which slew many of us.
16:25 And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport. And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them sport: and they set him between the pillars.
16:26 And Samson said unto the lad that held him by the hand, Suffer me that I may feel the pillars whereupon the house standeth, that I may lean upon them.
16:27 Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport.
16:28 And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Actually Samson got his strength back by the time of Judges 16:25. As I recall Samson had a covenant relationship with God as long as he kept his hair long he would have his great strength. I believe by this time his hair grew back and so did his strength. Besides if he could believe God to bring down the pillars and destroy all the people in the temple he could believe God to defend himself against perverts. No, I do not think there is any scriptural or otherwise historical justification for the belief that Samson was molested. This sounds like something completely made up and may be an indication of where the people or group that thought this up's heads were at.
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WordWolf
I find it telling that both of these doctrines seem to have no other supporters beyond
people who saw twi teach them.
Re: the specific spectacle,
it seems to me that-even if Samson thought his supernatural strength
was missing-which he may have thought, whether or not it was-
he would still have been a strong man biologically.
(I don't think he was a 97-pound weakling who said "Shazam"
and became a long-haired superhero.)
So, I expect that they would have wanted to be entertained-
that's what they SAID, after all-
and-as has been suggested-
they wanted to see some feats of strength of some kind,
or possibly even wrestling (per the Manners and Custom's books notation).
I also agree about being able to believe God for anti-pervert strength,
should the situation have required it.
In the absolute absence of ANY information that could possibly support
this idea, it seems to have been a figment of someone's imagination,
which then became a doctrine.
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dmiller
FWIW -- I have gone through 5 (so far) of the Sound Out tapes. Interesting stuff -- but nothing pertinent to this coversation (yet). :)
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WhiteDove
David I don't think you will as you noted find anything about this subject in that tape set likewise in any of the SNS or TOM I checked the tape logs and VPW never taught on the verse in Judges. I don't recall him ever teaching this subject only Craig.
Mark if Samson had his strength back then what would be the purpose for asking God for something that he already had in vs 28 where he asked just once for strength? And why would he be hanging around anyway why not just leave if he could break the restraints?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Why so many questions, Whitedove? You can read the account. Surely you know he was blind and could not travel easily. Or perhaps he stayed around to topple the pillars on his enemies. However, since he toppled the pillars he must have regained his strength. He asked for extra strength from God because toppling the pillars would have been unusual at any time in his life. Such a feat has never been done by anyone.
So Whitedove, are you trying to imply that a homosexual act was committed on Samson? And if yes, what do you base this on?
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