Were Samson and Jesus molested?

[WordWolf]

This topic is NOT meant to mock a serious subject.

It's ONLY meant to examine specific claims made in twi.

Specifically, that Samson and Jesus were molested, and the

accounts of both were included in the Bible.

As to the Samson account, the verses used to justify this

were Judges 16:25 and 27,

when the Philistines had captured Samson.

Judges 16:25 (KJV)

"And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said,

'Call for Samson, that he may make us sport.'

And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made

them sport: and they set him between the pillars."

Judges 16:27

"Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the

Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about 3,000

men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport."

The phrase "made sport", here, I was told,

meant that the Philistines molested him.

I was told this as a partial explanation of a DIFFERENT doctrine.

I questioned the claim-made by lcm and others-

(lcm did one of his 'you'd know this of you worked The Word' on this)-

that Jesus was molested when he was captured and tortured.

IIRC,

these would be the verses used to explain this one...

Matthew 27:29 (KJV)

"And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,

and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him,

and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!"

Matthew 27:31

"And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from

him, and put his own rainment on him, and led him away to crucify him."

Mark 15:17-20

"And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,

And began to salute him, 'Hail, King of the Jews!'

And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their

knees worshipped him.

And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his

own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him."

Luke 23:11

"And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him

in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate."

Now,

it seems to me that the clear and evident meaning in the verses of these

accounts is that both men were beaten and laughed at and made a spectacle of-

but to read into EITHER that this included any kind of sexual contact

is to insert a meaning where it does not exist.

It is what vpw called "private interpretation."

Can any of you logically find his meaning in ANY of those accounts?

Can any of you find a commentary that supports it?

========

Separate question.

I know lcm taught these.

Does anyone here remember vpw teaching them?

It's all well and good to SUPPOSE that vpw taught lcm this-

just as he taught him the "swear" thing-

but I'd like at least one person to sing out and say

"yes-I heard vpw teach this, really."

Thank you again for your cooperation.

(And no, this is the last question of this sort that I have

at this time. The OTHER question made me think of this one.)

[Keith]

The correct answer is "I don't know." But I have heard the teachings. It would not surprise me if Samson was molested as you put it. "make sport" has been a common term for sexual play through the years. So I believe it is possible.

"They mocked him," however is not a common term for sexual play, but has to the best of my knowledge always be used of degrading someone's honor or making fun of them. There were some ambassadors that David sent to a kingdom that were mocked by having half of their beards cut off, and their clothing cut short. But it never says they dealt with in a sexual manner.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I believe that an 8th corps guy, who posts here at Grease Spot on occasion...did some extensive work on this subject...maybe he would like to comment....as for me, I have no idea.

...but maybe you should include Noah...didn't he have his cojones cut off while he slept?...If that isn't sexual molestation, I don't know what is....OUCH! :blink:

Edited June 1, 2006 by GrouchoMarxJr

[bliss]

From Dake:

[Call for Samson, that he may make us sport] This is similar to the gladiators who, in the days of Christ and the early church, made sport in the arena for Roman spectators.

Mathew:

empaizo, emp-aheed'-zo; from Greek 1722 (en) and Greek 3815 (paizo); to jeer at, i.e. deride :- mock.

.....................and yes, I heard LCM say this about Jesus Christ.....

not to my ears about Sampson though.

[Sushi]

If memory serves, Noah was 'molested' by his daughters while on a binge.

[bliss]

If memory serves, Noah was 'molested' by his daughters while on a binge.

No, that was LOT, not Noah. Noah had 3 sons.

Still, the thought of daughters planning that with their PA is unfathomable............but they were afraid they wouldnt continue the line since Sodom and Gamorrah perished.

Come to think of it, they were probably a little "loosy goosy" since their own daddy was willing to give them to the MOB of molesters instead of handing over the angels.........((((shudder)))))

[doojable]

I heard that JC was raped - there is a verse that said that the while he was beaten his attackers( the centurions perhaps) "knew" him as in the same way that a man would know his wife.

Now I have no proof of this - I heard it from R@lph D^bofs#y. I can't find the scripture reference now..... But I never heard it referred to and anything having to do with Jesus being mocked.

[templelady]

Just when I think my head can't ache anymore from TWI teachings --along comes something even more Excedrin addiction promoting--thank God I left before the nineties

[Sushi]

I sit corrected.

[year2027]

God first

Beloved WordWolf

God loves you my dear friend

When I took the class in 1981 because there were only three of us we got the class on casette tape only

I recalled VPW taught on it that Jesus was molested

but I do not recall the same words on the VHS tape class

but maybe some one has a copy because its been a long time

I heard differ years of PFAL books have things wrote differ

so maybe the class as changed when it moved from casette tape to VHS tape

but its been a long time but about Samson I can not recall anything

but its been a long time

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[WordWolf]

When I took the class in 1981, because there were only three of us, we got the class on cassette tape only.

I recalled VPW taught on it that Jesus was molested.

But I do not recall the same words on the VHS tape class.

Bingo.

I took it on the Beta video tapes. (It was never on VHS-at least hq never

authorized it.)

So, it was on the audio version, which was a prototype of the

video version.

That explains where lcm got it, and the others.

But maybe some one has a copy because its been a long time.

I heard different years of PFAL books have things wrote different,

so maybe the class as changed when it moved from cassette tape to VHS tape.

That's exactly how I see that.

but its been a long time but about Samson I can not recall anything

but its been a long time

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Thank YOU, Roy.

That was half my question right answered right there in one post.

Just when I think my head can't ache anymore from TWI teachings --along comes something even more Excedrin addiction promoting--thank God I left before the nineties

So did I. The "Jesus was raped" thing was from lcm in the early 80s, possibly also the 70s.

He mentioned it in his 2-tape rant against homosexuality,

"Victorious Unity in One God."

(There was about 5 minutes on unity, and something over an hour on homosexuality.)

[WordWolf]

No, that was LOT, not Noah. Noah had 3 sons.

Still, the thought of daughters planning that with their PA is unfathomable............but they were afraid they wouldnt continue the line since Sodom and Gamorrah perished.

Come to think of it, they were probably a little "loosy goosy" since their own daddy was willing to give them to the MOB of molesters instead of handing over the angels.........((((shudder)))))

They were scared of more than "continuing the line".

Genesis 19 shows destruction of city after city, and Lot and his daughters

went and hid in a cave in the mountains.

They thought it was the end of the world, and they were the last 3 people

ALIVE.

Genesis 19:31 (KJV)

"And the firstborn said unto the younger, 'Our father is old, and there is

not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:' "

Doesn't mean they were RIGHT, but it's a bit more understandable that someone

might do something that extreme if they thought the situation was that desperate.

And I came to the same conclusion about their morals that you did.

My OPINION is that Lot lied thru his teeth when he addressing that mob and

claimed his daughters were, um, 'virtuous.'

Of course, this is a digression from the main subject.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled topic.

[WordWolf]

I heard that JC was raped - there is a verse that said that the while he was beaten his attackers( the centurions perhaps) "knew" him as in the same way that a man would know his wife.

Now I have no proof of this - I heard it from R@lph D^bofs#y. I can't find the scripture reference now..... But I never heard it referred to and anything having to do with Jesus being mocked.

Ok,

I just reviewed all 4 Gospels again,

from the garden of Gethsemane before the mob arrives,

until after Jesus is crucified.

If there's a verse in ANY gospel that even SUGGESTS it, I can't find it.

The CLOSEST I can get is the "mocking", which is the same conclusion I came to

the other day when I did my FIRST search.

If one were willing to completely rewrite the verses, one might try saying

that when Pilate told the crowd he was going to have Jesus

"chastized", then let him go, that this was supposedly an expected part

of the process.

However, one not only would have to rewrite the meaning of the word

"chastize", but would then have to claim that Pilate told a crowd

"He hasn't committed any crimes. So, I'll have him raped and then released,"

and that's beyond silly.

So, I can't find a single verse that can be squeezed to support it.

[bliss]

They were scared of more than "continuing the line".

Yup, I didn't re-read the record in a while.......................but still, eeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwhhhh

[WordWolf]

The correct answer is "I don't know." But I have heard the teachings. It would not surprise me if Samson was molested as you put it. "make sport" has been a common term for sexual play through the years. So I believe it is possible.

The problem here, of course, is that the Bible was not given in King James English.

Thus, taking the Hebrew word "fill",

rendering it "replenish",

then ignoring the Hebrew word completely and making a doctrine around the

specific meaning of the word "replenish", is wrong, error,

and what vpw would have called "private interpretation."

(For those who want to follow along without a Bible,

you can use http://www.biblegateway.com )

In this case, it is true that the word in the King James "sport" CAN refer to conjugal

relations. (Genesis 26:8.)

However, it also doesn't sometimes (Proverbs 10:23, II Peter 2:13).

That's all a DIVERSION, since all that's based on ENGLISH.

Therefore, we check the Hebrew.

I've found that, when checking the meaning of a word in Hebrew or Greek,

a good thing to do is to find the word in that language,

look at the places it's used to mean the same thing

(in my trusty concordance)

AND to go to the back of the concordance and look at all the OTHER words

it was translated into, and the places that is used.

Then I know what it meant in the Bible whether or NOT I can read Hebrew.

Now, the chapter on Samson uses the Hebrew word

"tsachaq" in one verse, and "sachaq" in the other, interchangeably.

Now, "sachaq" is also translated "sport" in Proverbs 26:19,

where it certainly does NOT mean conjugal relations.

"Tsachaq" is used in Genesis 26:8, where it might mean conjugal relations,

and I think a strong case can be made for it in the general.

So, so far it's about even.

Now I check the other usages of both words.

Sachaq is used to mean

deride

have in derision

laugh

make sport

mock

rejoice

scorn

be in sport

make sport

play

rejoice

mocker

them that make merry

laugh to scorn

The last one is II Chronicles 30:10.

"So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh

even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them."

OBVIOUSLY not conjugal relations.

Feel free to hammer that across by comparing the other usages for yourself.

For fun,you can look at the coognate "tsechoq", which seems to never carry a

meaning of conjugal relations.

===

Now, let's see, "tsachaq"...

laugh

make sport

mock

play

sport

Genesis 17:17, 18:12, 18:13, 18:15 and 21:6

all have "tsachaq" translated "laugh",

and 21:6 has the word "laugh" twice-

"Sarah said 'God has brought me laughter [tsechoq], and everyone who hears about this

wiill laugh [tsachaq] with me."

All of these usages involve the physical laughter involved when either

Abraham or Sarah laughed at the thought of having a child when they

thought it was impossible.

Therefore,

I conclude that the usages of the word "sachaq" or "tsachaq"

mean to scorn, laugh, make a laughingstock, be silly

and -by far the most rare usage- conjugal relations.

Therefore, not only does this not INDICATE Samson was molested,

the overwhelming likelihood is that he was NOT-

he was mocked and humiliated.

If anything else MUST be read into it, the verse MUST be clearer

on the subject, because one has to go far afield to try to support it.

No verse says "here, this is what it means",

neither in the verse itself, nor the context/surrounding verses,

and the overwhelming usages of the term BEFORE say otherwise.

IIRC,

"all Scripture" supposedly "explains itself" those 3 ways.

Scripture remains silent on whether this word meant exactly this

here. As vpw himself said,

"Where the Word of God remains silent,

he that speaks is a fool."

Why he chose to speak on this subject where the Word of God

remains silent cannot be told with absolute accuracy.

However, using his own rules,

the verses do NOT mean that,

and he is judged a fool for forcing the meaning onto them.

"They mocked him," however is not a common term for sexual play, but has to the best of my knowledge always be used of degrading someone's honor or making fun of them. There were some ambassadors that David sent to a kingdom that were mocked by having half of their beards cut off, and their clothing cut short. But it never says they dealt with in a sexual manner.

I STILL can't find a verse that MIGHT support this meaning.

Anyone?

[WordWolf]

If memory serves, Noah was 'molested' by his daughters while on a binge.

No, that was LOT, not Noah. Noah had 3 sons.

...but maybe you should include Noah...didn't he have his cojones cut off while he slept?...If that isn't sexual molestation, I don't know what is....OUCH! :blink:

The Noah thing was not "the unkindest cut".

It's mentioned here:

Genesis 9:2-23.

(http://www.biblegateway.com)

It says that Ham "saw [Noah's] nakedness".

What does it mean?

Well,

read Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 in their entirety,

and you'll see.

Leviticus 20:11a is the short form.

"And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's

nakedness:"

(Or Leviticus 18:8.)

So, Ham didn't literally do anything to Mr Noah-he did it to Mrs Noah.

Now, the reason Canaan, son of Ham, was cursed becomes a little

clearer. (His father was Ham, and his mother...)

I wanted to get that covered also.

In case anyone's curious,

that was covered by one of the corps in one of the "gmir" articles

(which stopped around the time PoP was read)

and that's where I saw this taught.

Further, I lent that article to a guy who had NO connection to twi,

and was Jewish-and-when he gave it back, he agreed with the

conclusions.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

Edited June 2, 2006 by WordWolf

[doojable]

Word Wolf,

I seem to remember, vaguley, that R@lph said that in the Septuagint the word for "mock" was the same as the word for "to know one's wife in teh Biblical way" in the OT.

I'm sorry that I'm not more help here. Perhaps someone still has a copy of "Jesus Christ Our Passover." I suspect that if it is anywhere, it is there.

I took the class on Beta and later ran it for others in audio if we didn't have more than 7 people. I don't recall any of this subject in PFAL.

BTW, when R@lph taught it - he wasn't ranting and raving. He was very calm and reverent - unlike LCM. AND it wasn't the focus of the teaching.

Hope this helps......

dooj

[WordWolf]

WordWolf,

I seem to remember, vaguely, that R@lph said that in the Septuagint the word for "mock" was the same as the word for "to know one's wife in teh Biblical way" in the OT.

Ok.

Well, since the Septuagint was a Greek TRANSLATION of the OT from the Hebrew,

we can skip that and go straight to the Hebrew.

Which I just did. (Scroll up if you missed the digression, any of you.)

Therefore, what the words meant in the OT English, Septuagint,

Spanish, Italian, Latin, and Klingon are interesting,

but lacking in authority.

(Not that I have anything against RD-I'd suspect he's not teaching this one

any more unless I had proof he WAS.)

I'm sorry that I'm not more help here. Perhaps someone still has a copy of "Jesus Christ Our Passover." I suspect that if it is anywhere, it is there.

Good idea.

I'll dig that out later, in the interest of completeness,

unless someone beats me to it.

(PLEASE beat me to it.)

I took the class on Beta and later ran it for others in audio if we didn't have more than 7 people. I don't recall any of this subject in PFAL.

Feh.

Can someone break this deadlock, then?

Was it on the audio or not?

I know the video claimed Peter denied Jesus "three times three times" or NINE times,

whereas JCOP makes a case for SIX denials.

[WhiteDove]

WW Craig did a two tape Corps teaching set on Samson in the early 80s where he taught on this.

[WordWolf]

WW Craig did a two tape Corps teaching set on Samson in the early 80s where he taught on this.

Good to know.

What I REALLY want to know MORE than

"did lcm teach this?"

which you confirmed and I wasn't sure of,

is

"did vpw teach this?"

Offhand,

did lcm use any explanation we didn't cover,

that you remember him using?

(Which, of course, is no guarantee it's EVERYTHING he said, of course.)

[Happyasaclam]

But if the word for "mock" is the same as "to know - as in knowing one's wife," didn't VPW and LCM always teach that "to know" a woman meant to get her pregnant? That was how they got around the idea that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary before Jesus was born, just didn't get her pregnant (because she already was of course). I remember VPW ranting that there was no such thing as a virgin birth, just a virgin conception and this is how he explained "he knew her not" of Matthew 1:25.

Obviously, if Jesus was "mocked" in this way he didn't get pregnant ... duhhh. Can't have it both ways.

[excathedra]

if memory serves ?, a verse used in teachings along this subject....

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

[simonzelotes]

It was the phrase "set at naught" by Herod's men of war that VPW used to teach that Jesus was sodomized....

[Belle]

Craiggers taught on a Sunday service that "mock" and "make sport" were homosexual attacks.

He taught several times - one, I believe was the AC special on the field. I have my notes and will look it up. Another time was during the Easter season because "Jesus was tempted in ALL things" and "took on ALL sin" so the ALL things had to include homosexual rape.

I'll have to look when I get home. I still have some tapes, too. Maybe it's on one of those.

[excathedra]

simon, was "set at nought" supposed to mean make naked ?