I will vote as long as you change the first choice. The word twig has got to go. Use anything but "twig". You can use fellowship, meet, hang out, gather together, party, etc. Twig represents an unbiblical hierarchy where so called higher ups are looking over your shoulder. Anyone that looks over my shoulder in this manner would be sorry that they even thought about it.
I understand what you're saying, but I know folks that left mid to late 80's who still think they're 'twiggin', even with no connection to TWI. It is a valid option.
Its hard to tell or count or categorize 'most'...--most have moved on with their life to be themselves ... -- some have become christians, others continue to dabble in twi type stuff, many have moved into other arenas of spiritual growth, still others (and maybe this is the biggest category that I know of) view it as a minor and inconsequential part of their life that was more like a youthful abberation than something essential and barely give their TWI involvement any thought at all.
Wish I could categorize over 20 years in TWI as a "youthful abberation". Mstar, you don't consider TWI to have been "christian" in its doctrinal leanings?
Not really--maybe at best a strange farflung wing of christianity---but the more I take a step back and think about the things I was reading all those years the less and less it all seems to line up, there were elements in twi that were somewhat christian in appearance, and there were many searching christians within TWI but all in all today I'd say no, not really,
I think that was even the party line at one time wasnt it?That we are not christians? at least Ive heard it said...
The doctrinal leanings to me now all seem to be a convenient mishmosh culled from here and there mostly Old Testament and Church Epistles that avoid the Gospels , and the Christ of the gospels like the plague, unless they can be otherwise be used to prove apoint already decided upon from elsewhere.
I dont know --everybody has to make up there own mind what christianity is, but imo Christ and TWI were more at odds than on the same page-- just my opinion
[This message was edited by mstar1 on January 21, 2004 at 5:37.]
I would love to find a cult that teaches what I am learning. It would be nice to have a support group like GSC but one that doesn't dismiss you for, not just being different, but being really different. When no doctrine is in stone and truth and lies don't exist....what is real or true to you is your reality, and what is real or true to me is mine. We are both living in truth...our own self made truth...
I have no teacher, but everyone teaches me. and it doesn't hurt when they say freak, idiot or unlearned. I say thank you.
I know more than I ever did before and at the same time remember I know nothing at all...
The minute I am convinced of a truth, a prejudice, or a judgement....I meet the acception to the rule...I meet the person so damaged by life that wrong choices seemed the right choices for them and I have compassion. The only thing I know for sure is love...
To quote my friend, Todd:
"And the best thing I am finding on my path is...no carnal church. No carnal obligations to prove anything or be pressured to convert anyone. Total freedom in remaining more-or-less anonymous, and practicing random acts of kindness."
Good question, but one I don't think can be answered that simply. For instance, the branch here in Tampa Bay once had about 500 active participants in the early to mid 80's (that's all of the Tampa Bay area plus a few other smaller cities close by). That's a lot of people to keep track of just in one area. Grease Spot is a very small sampling of ex-Way followers.
I've been in this area for a long time (since 1981), and stayed in TWI for longer than most(29 years). I didn't know all 500 people in the area, but have a good idea of what many people are doing about religion.
Of the people I know and have kept track of, it's divided between the middle 3 of your 5 choices. Some have gone through all three of them!
There's a couple of active off-shoots here, so naturally, many people leaned that way at first. When they saw that these were mostly TWI wannabes, they looked for a church. When they couldn't find one that taught exactly what they believed or one they felt comfortable in, they dropped everything.
TWI went from about 45,000 - 50,000 active participants in the mid-80's to about 3000 - 3500 today. I think the majority left during the first 1986-1990 exodus. Even LCM admitted that they lost 45% of their leadership during the so-called "fog years". I think it was more.
If you check out the Cortwright site's "Believer Links" page, you can read the list of ex-Way folks and what many of them are doing.
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
Oaks - you're right - it was 4/5 - I knew it had to be more than 45% - that CRS kicks in when it comes to remembering stuff about TWI!
Let's see... if there were 500 people in this area, and 80% left - that would be 100 - which is absolutely correct when it comes to Tampa Bay. I remember when the Corpse were taken off their full time status, only those with branches or areas of 100 people stayed on Waypay. Paul G. - the BC here, was one of the only 2 or 3 BC's in the country who had that many people under him. And that was only because the BC who was in 1/2 of the area was reassigned and they combined the 2 areas together. Lucky for Paul - he got a few more more years of a free ride before the area dwindled down to about 60 and TWI told him to get a job.
hmmmm - 60 people left out of 500 - and in less than 15 years... about 88% for this area.
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
ISTW...MAYBE it is because you are picking on a poster here that is liked and respected...also in labeling/slamming the conclusions of their personal belief you might be skating mighty close to a personal attack.
After the fiasco of what we *believed* in twi...and the horrendous results endured thereby....I hesitate to be judging the accuracy or fitness of ANYbody elses path of learning...sorry
I'm sad that I can't answer any of those. They all seem like better options than the one I'm in.
I think most people probably saw the unethical behavior and weird doctrines they were teaching and left. Maybe they did nothing for a while or some offshoot, but I would think most go to denominational churches because they did want to know God and have a relationship with Him.
Me? I'm still pretending to be a good little kool-aid drinker praying for the day I can choose one of those options up there with my whole family.
ISTW...MAYBE it is because you are picking on a poster here that is liked and respected...also in labeling/slamming the conclusions of their personal belief you might be skating mighty close to a personal attack.
Rascal,
I have deleted my original reply.
I disagree with you that I picked on Karmicdebt.
I posted "Pagan is another cult to me."
Oakspear replied "Why do you say that? What do you know, or think that you know, about paganism?"
I felt, perhaps wrongly, that his was reply was mean-spirited. I don't really know, so I've changed that reply.
I did not mean to pick on Karmicdebt.
I may have misunderstood Oakspears intent.
Perhaps my intent was misunderstood.
Either way, I have other things to deal with.
Thank you.
[This message was edited by ItsStillTheWord on January 21, 2004 at 16:59.]
ISTW....really... I don`t want you to feel like you re being picked on either.... It is ok to disagree....
It is very hard to communicate in this medium......sometimes one appears mean when they have no intention of that at all....when I look back at my post maybe it apeared more harsh than I intended....sorry
Shall I erase mine as well?
Whatever else you are currently having to deal with....I wish you well....and am sorry if I upset you.
Thanks for your reply. I remember hearing those numbers too.
"Grease Spot is a very small sampling of ex-Way followers." I guess my question is "is GSC (with all its diversity) a representative sample of the thousands who have left?"
We may never know, but there are thousands that seem to have disappeared.
Wonder if we all missed the Gathering or something?
[This message was edited by ItsStillTheWord on January 21, 2004 at 18:03.]
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Mark Sanguinetti
I will vote as long as you change the first choice. The word twig has got to go. Use anything but "twig". You can use fellowship, meet, hang out, gather together, party, etc. Twig represents an unbiblical hierarchy where so called higher ups are looking over your shoulder. Anyone that looks over my shoulder in this manner would be sorry that they even thought about it.
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ItsStillTheWord
I understand what you're saying, but I know folks that left mid to late 80's who still think they're 'twiggin', even with no connection to TWI. It is a valid option.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Then it is none of the above for me. Although I do attend a great home bible study with some great people.
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karmicdebt
Hey,what about us pagans?!?
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ItsStillTheWord
I made a modification. I think using 'Twig' gives the idea that they basically follow VPW, so I still think it is a valid option.
Thanks for your input - your point is valid also.
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ItsStillTheWord
The poll only gives us 5 options.
[This message was edited by ItsStillTheWord on January 21, 2004 at 17:01.]
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Mark Sanguinetti
I don't follow VPW. I have not looked at his books in years.
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mstar1
Its hard to tell or count or categorize 'most'...--most have moved on with their life to be themselves ... -- some have become christians, others continue to dabble in twi type stuff, many have moved into other arenas of spiritual growth, still others (and maybe this is the biggest category that I know of) view it as a minor and inconsequential part of their life that was more like a youthful abberation than something essential and barely give their TWI involvement any thought at all.
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Cherished Child
Wish I could categorize over 20 years in TWI as a "youthful abberation". Mstar, you don't consider TWI to have been "christian" in its doctrinal leanings?
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mstar1
Not really--maybe at best a strange farflung wing of christianity---but the more I take a step back and think about the things I was reading all those years the less and less it all seems to line up, there were elements in twi that were somewhat christian in appearance, and there were many searching christians within TWI but all in all today I'd say no, not really,
I think that was even the party line at one time wasnt it?That we are not christians? at least Ive heard it said...
The doctrinal leanings to me now all seem to be a convenient mishmosh culled from here and there mostly Old Testament and Church Epistles that avoid the Gospels , and the Christ of the gospels like the plague, unless they can be otherwise be used to prove apoint already decided upon from elsewhere.
I dont know --everybody has to make up there own mind what christianity is, but imo Christ and TWI were more at odds than on the same page-- just my opinion
[This message was edited by mstar1 on January 21, 2004 at 5:37.]
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karmicdebt
I would love to find a cult that teaches what I am learning. It would be nice to have a support group like GSC but one that doesn't dismiss you for, not just being different, but being really different. When no doctrine is in stone and truth and lies don't exist....what is real or true to you is your reality, and what is real or true to me is mine. We are both living in truth...our own self made truth...
I have no teacher, but everyone teaches me. and it doesn't hurt when they say freak, idiot or unlearned. I say thank you.
I know more than I ever did before and at the same time remember I know nothing at all...
The minute I am convinced of a truth, a prejudice, or a judgement....I meet the acception to the rule...I meet the person so damaged by life that wrong choices seemed the right choices for them and I have compassion. The only thing I know for sure is love...
To quote my friend, Todd:
"And the best thing I am finding on my path is...no carnal church. No carnal obligations to prove anything or be pressured to convert anyone. Total freedom in remaining more-or-less anonymous, and practicing random acts of kindness."
There is no catagory for me and I feel free!
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Hope R.
Hi ISTW -
Good question, but one I don't think can be answered that simply. For instance, the branch here in Tampa Bay once had about 500 active participants in the early to mid 80's (that's all of the Tampa Bay area plus a few other smaller cities close by). That's a lot of people to keep track of just in one area. Grease Spot is a very small sampling of ex-Way followers.
I've been in this area for a long time (since 1981), and stayed in TWI for longer than most(29 years). I didn't know all 500 people in the area, but have a good idea of what many people are doing about religion.
Of the people I know and have kept track of, it's divided between the middle 3 of your 5 choices. Some have gone through all three of them!
There's a couple of active off-shoots here, so naturally, many people leaned that way at first. When they saw that these were mostly TWI wannabes, they looked for a church. When they couldn't find one that taught exactly what they believed or one they felt comfortable in, they dropped everything.
TWI went from about 45,000 - 50,000 active participants in the mid-80's to about 3000 - 3500 today. I think the majority left during the first 1986-1990 exodus. Even LCM admitted that they lost 45% of their leadership during the so-called "fog years". I think it was more.
If you check out the Cortwright site's "Believer Links" page, you can read the list of ex-Way folks and what many of them are doing.
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
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Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Oakspear
Hope:
I believe the figure Martindale used was 4/5, not 45%.
That would be 80% for you mathematically challenged!
:D-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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ItsStillTheWord
Not enough to really discuss it.
[This message was edited by ItsStillTheWord on January 21, 2004 at 17:00.]
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Hope R.
Oaks - you're right - it was 4/5 - I knew it had to be more than 45% - that CRS kicks in when it comes to remembering stuff about TWI!
Let's see... if there were 500 people in this area, and 80% left - that would be 100 - which is absolutely correct when it comes to Tampa Bay. I remember when the Corpse were taken off their full time status, only those with branches or areas of 100 people stayed on Waypay. Paul G. - the BC here, was one of the only 2 or 3 BC's in the country who had that many people under him. And that was only because the BC who was in 1/2 of the area was reassigned and they combined the 2 areas together. Lucky for Paul - he got a few more more years of a free ride before the area dwindled down to about 60 and TWI told him to get a job.
hmmmm - 60 people left out of 500 - and in less than 15 years... about 88% for this area.
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
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rascal
ISTW...MAYBE it is because you are picking on a poster here that is liked and respected...also in labeling/slamming the conclusions of their personal belief you might be skating mighty close to a personal attack.
After the fiasco of what we *believed* in twi...and the horrendous results endured thereby....I hesitate to be judging the accuracy or fitness of ANYbody elses path of learning...sorry
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insurgent
I'm sad that I can't answer any of those. They all seem like better options than the one I'm in.
I think most people probably saw the unethical behavior and weird doctrines they were teaching and left. Maybe they did nothing for a while or some offshoot, but I would think most go to denominational churches because they did want to know God and have a relationship with Him.
Me? I'm still pretending to be a good little kool-aid drinker praying for the day I can choose one of those options up there with my whole family.
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ItsStillTheWord
Rascal,
I have deleted my original reply.
I disagree with you that I picked on Karmicdebt.
I posted "Pagan is another cult to me."
Oakspear replied "Why do you say that? What do you know, or think that you know, about paganism?"
I felt, perhaps wrongly, that his was reply was mean-spirited. I don't really know, so I've changed that reply.
I did not mean to pick on Karmicdebt.
I may have misunderstood Oakspears intent.
Perhaps my intent was misunderstood.
Either way, I have other things to deal with.
Thank you.
[This message was edited by ItsStillTheWord on January 21, 2004 at 16:59.]
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rascal
ISTW....really... I don`t want you to feel like you re being picked on either.... It is ok to disagree....
It is very hard to communicate in this medium......sometimes one appears mean when they have no intention of that at all....when I look back at my post maybe it apeared more harsh than I intended....sorry
Shall I erase mine as well?
Whatever else you are currently having to deal with....I wish you well....and am sorry if I upset you.
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ItsStillTheWord
Hope,
Thanks for your reply. I remember hearing those numbers too.
"Grease Spot is a very small sampling of ex-Way followers." I guess my question is "is GSC (with all its diversity) a representative sample of the thousands who have left?"
We may never know, but there are thousands that seem to have disappeared.
Wonder if we all missed the Gathering or something?
[This message was edited by ItsStillTheWord on January 21, 2004 at 18:03.]
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ItsStillTheWord
Rascal,
Thanks.
"It is very hard to communicate in this medium......sometimes one appears mean when they have no intention of that at all"
Thats why I changed my reply to Oakspear.
If his reply was not meant to be harsh... then I was wrong in my reply. Sorry.
If his reply was meant to be harsh... then I can't be concerned.
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excathedra
it wouldn't be the first time i missed the boat
;)--> stilly
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ItsStillTheWord
Well, like the line from Da Class:
How boat it?
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