If I remember correctly, MD Vaden is notorious for swooping in puking his judgement on everyone and then leaves. I suspect that he will not be back, certainly not to have any meaningful dialog about anything.
But I do swoop out, and for a reason.
Frequent use of this forum can "fix" a perception.
I don't like to dwell here very long, because the purpose in Grease Spot, is understood a bit differently by stepping away from it for a while.
Now check out this....
"Hey Vader. You some kind of child molester? You sound like one. No kidding.
Anybody who draws a moral equivalency between teaching the bible fifteen minutes too long and the crimes Wierwille & Martindale (and their sadistic, self-serving toadies) committed against many Way believers has to be some kind of twisted, amoral freak. That's what you sound like.
I'd say you are a sick puppy Vader, a Wierwillian monstrosity of the first order. I see no evidence of conscience in you. You are primordial slime, oozing into a pool at the base of the scale of human moral evolution.
If I knew where you lived I'd tip the police to search your house and property. And your computer, too. You reek of depravity, even across the internet."
That post is one reason this site doesn't keep some people around very long.
The person who wrote it probably didn't spend more than a minute before their mind raced to write.
Grease Spot is supposed to help people - and I'd like for it too, too. But it's going to get neutralized when users start slinging rude or false statements about well-known cititzens. What a disgrace, really.
People have to take more than a millisecond or a minute before they disgrace themselves or the forum. The forum takes the biggest hit really.
VPW, LCM or TWI are not responsible for all our problems. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. That's part of why this thread. Also, why I just "swoop" into the forum.
The Grease Spot is very unique when read infrequently.
It reminds me of a lady who hired me after lurking in the nation's most used arborist forum. It was interesting to hear her feedback about that website and how she percieved it as a "lurker" or person who was not "one" with the forum's frequent users.
Oh... about sin. I know that actions in the bible were to bring different consequences than some sins. Like execution for murder, but not for lying. But the action of murder goes a lot deeper than just sin.
But within the scope of "sin", I firmly believe that sin is sin. I don't believe that there are big sins or little sins. To me, stealing is sin as much as lying is a sin. So no matter what a leader in a church may have taught or led people to do, I don't see - in the Word - where that sin is higher or lower on the totem pole of our sins.
VPW, LCM or TWI are not responsible for all our problems. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. That's part of why this thread. Also, why I just "swoop" into the forum.
Seems like its "all or nothing" with you, vader. Black and white thinking patterns......indicative of being in the twi dead zone too long.
The Grease Spot is very unique when read infrequently.
Greasespot is unique in giving others a voice to tell their story. It has empowered the little guy to speak out against the atrocities of VPW, LCM, RFR, and the chain of command in twi's hierarchy. IMO, Greasespot has helped thousands.......and will continue onward for years to come.
It reminds me of a lady who hired me after lurking in the nation's most used arborist forum. It was interesting to hear her feedback about that website and how she percieved it as a "lurker" or person who was not "one" with the forum's frequent users.
Whatever that means.
Oh... about sin. I know that actions in the bible were to bring different consequences than some sins. Like execution for murder, but not for lying. But the action of murder goes a lot deeper than just sin.
But within the scope of "sin", I firmly believe that sin is sin. I don't believe that there are big sins or little sins. To me, stealing is sin as much as lying is a sin. So no matter what a leader in a church may have taught or led people to do, I don't see - in the Word - where that sin is higher or lower on the totem pole of our sins.
I would expect you to follow the vpw-endorsed doctrine in pfal. Seems like you are a twi apologist to the bitter end.
"Sin". The very fact that different actions have different consequences, results, punishment and restitution indicate that there are different levels of sin, some worse than others.
The unrighteous nature of man is redeemed by one righteous sacrifice, made by Jesus Christ, on behalf of mankind. So all that unrighteousness, on all levels, is accounted for. Restitution made. That would be one way of putting "salvation".
That doesn't inherently define all unrighteous actions as the same, or equal to one another within that state of unrighteousness.
*The word* defines different sins constantly. There is a list of *abominations* The lady caught in adultery was treated way differently than the money changers or the pharacees, by Jesus ..No? .... a clear indication HE felt there was a difference in sin and how they were to be addressed. There is an unforgivable sin even....
Your swooping analogy is even sillier md vaden...... if anybody had done as you describe in twi or school or any other group of folks ....they couldn`t possibly get a grasp on what the group was genuinely about or what was accomplished or not
There is much to be learned from each and every poster here about the direction they have been led since leaving twi.
As far as Satori`s post? Though extreme, there is a valid point being made...
Have you honestly considered the impact of wierwilles drugging and raping of our friends ...that the devistation in the lives of those assaulted by their trusted miniter and brother in Christ ...might be a tad more far reaching then simply going over long on a teaching?
Do you think that those of us who have spent the years trying to come to grips with this ultimate betrayal, or friends and family members lost to death due to wrong vpw/twi doctrine might consider your analogy obscene?
The people that were thrown out of the ministry and lied about ...declared posessed two that I know of for refusing sexual favors to lcm and vpw.....they lost their friends, their family, the spiritual anchor ..everything that mattered in life...some survived, some didn`t... and you can compare this to an overly long teaching??
Can you not see how deeply offending that your comparison is to those who suffered??
Read his post again md, there is a stark truth to be recognised in your thought processes....No of course you probably aren`t a child molester ...but your thoughts and ability to equate deliberate visciously destructive, morally outragious behavior that destroyed lives.....(yeah, some even died md) .... with the arrogance of taking more than your allotted time at a teaching.....can safely be compared with the obscene reasoning of a pedophile rationalising and justifying their actions towards their innocent victims...
You are guilty of arrogance and maybe boring a crowd to tears.....Wierwille and the child molester are guilty of destroying lives for selfish pleasure and personal gain.
Oh... about sin. I know that actions in the bible were to bring different consequences than some sins. Like execution for murder, but not for lying. But the action of murder goes a lot deeper than just sin.
But within the scope of "sin", I firmly believe that sin is sin. I don't believe that there are big sins or little sins. To me, stealing is sin as much as lying is a sin. So no matter what a leader in a church may have taught or led people to do, I don't see - in the Word - where that sin is higher or lower on the totem pole of our sins.
M.D. Vaden, perhaps you're a little confused over the issue on this thread. I agree with your general statement of sin being sin. No matter what the sin is – it is wrong in God's eyes. However, your disjointed logic of different sins deserving different consequences yet having no bearing on what church leaders have done – is puzzling and to that I firmly disagree. Execution for murder is punishment to fit the crime – as "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" – and I think a lot of our own code of justice has come from the Bible. There's laws in our country that address rape, stealing , lying, etc.
I am amazed that you do not understand the enormity of evil not only perpetrated but also inculcated by certain church leaders. I thought referring to II Peter 2:1-22 and Matthew 18:15-17 in my previous post was sufficient grounds for supporting what goes on here at Grease Spot. Consider Matthew 18:6, 7 "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!" Do you think it's important to Jesus that leaders are to help believers avoid anything or anyone that could cause them to stumble in their faith or lead them to sin? What makes you think it's okay to minimize what certain infamous TWI leaders have done? Why do you insist on diverting our attention from the real issue [their erroneous doctrines and practices] or manipulating us with some guilt-trip smokescreen?
And T-Bone.....I think one thing that was/is hugely missing in twi (and the number of offshoots I've visited) is a sense of humility before God. These guys' egos and self-righteousness are so big, it will take a genuine spiritual move towards Godly sorrow before they could even possibly "get" what you mean here.
J.
Edited cuz I haven't had enough sleep or caffeine yet to write intelligibly. :)
Your position that "all sins are the same" is the intellectual convenience of a sociopath. It has nothing to do with that spiritual principle you so awkwardly ape.
Of course, that phony position, I am reasonably certain, stops at your own doorstep. If not, you might be equally offended whether someone crushed one of your dainty little shrubs under foot or just burned down your house.
With respect to my posts, Rascal really got it right.
What makes you evil is that the concept is not lost on you, not in the least. You simply blind yourself to it, just like a pedophile might, or any other kind of serial abuser, Wierwille for instance - all in the name of God? Is that possible? Not only possible, it's the rule. That is what crucified Christ. It's what makes a predator, or in your own case, an accessory, an aider and abettor to predators.
Except for your value as a specimen, you have nothing to contribute here, Vaden. You are devoid of sound judgement, barren of compassion. If my "disgraceful" remarks chase you off, I won't lose much sleep over it.
Hey Vader. You some kind of child molester? You sound like one. No kidding.
Anybody who draws a moral equivalency between teaching the bible fifteen minutes too long and the crimes Wierwille & Martindale (and their sadistic, self-serving toadies) committed against many Way believers has to be some kind of twisted, amoral freak. That's what you sound like.
I'd say you are a sick puppy Vader, a Wierwillian monstrosity of the first order. I see no evidence of conscience in you. You are primordial slime, oozing into a pool at the base of the scale of human moral evolution.
If I knew where you lived I'd tip the police to search your house and property. And your computer, too. You reek of depravity, even across the internet.
I think that perhaps satori is being too kind to this guy.
I must admit that with the exception of the politics forum, I generally agree with satori's point of view...This guy is a real ringer.
The "One Body" finger pointing thread. Try on the shoe.
"Finger pointing." As if to say Greasespot is about "finger pointing," and that exposing Wierwille makes one as guilty as he was, if not moreso. What a load of horse ..... Truth is the only greater sin in Vaden-land. Much like Way World. All other sins are equivalent, thus irrelevant.
Remember how much Wierwille hated "gossip?" Story tellers. Murmerers. Whisperers. Yeah, he knew what they were whispering about. He had a lot of open secrets at HQ, and he knew it would cost him if it all finally got out. That's why he went on the offensive, so followers would be hostile to hearing anything true about his shenanigans. And they were. Saying anything negative about slick Vic was grounds for ostracism, evidence of the adversary.
Swoop back in any time, Vaden. You make a good example.
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M. D. Vaden
But I do swoop out, and for a reason.
Frequent use of this forum can "fix" a perception.
I don't like to dwell here very long, because the purpose in Grease Spot, is understood a bit differently by stepping away from it for a while.
Now check out this....
"Hey Vader. You some kind of child molester? You sound like one. No kidding.
Anybody who draws a moral equivalency between teaching the bible fifteen minutes too long and the crimes Wierwille & Martindale (and their sadistic, self-serving toadies) committed against many Way believers has to be some kind of twisted, amoral freak. That's what you sound like.
I'd say you are a sick puppy Vader, a Wierwillian monstrosity of the first order. I see no evidence of conscience in you. You are primordial slime, oozing into a pool at the base of the scale of human moral evolution.
If I knew where you lived I'd tip the police to search your house and property. And your computer, too. You reek of depravity, even across the internet."
That post is one reason this site doesn't keep some people around very long.
The person who wrote it probably didn't spend more than a minute before their mind raced to write.
Grease Spot is supposed to help people - and I'd like for it too, too. But it's going to get neutralized when users start slinging rude or false statements about well-known cititzens. What a disgrace, really.
People have to take more than a millisecond or a minute before they disgrace themselves or the forum. The forum takes the biggest hit really.
VPW, LCM or TWI are not responsible for all our problems. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. That's part of why this thread. Also, why I just "swoop" into the forum.
The Grease Spot is very unique when read infrequently.
It reminds me of a lady who hired me after lurking in the nation's most used arborist forum. It was interesting to hear her feedback about that website and how she percieved it as a "lurker" or person who was not "one" with the forum's frequent users.
Oh... about sin. I know that actions in the bible were to bring different consequences than some sins. Like execution for murder, but not for lying. But the action of murder goes a lot deeper than just sin.
But within the scope of "sin", I firmly believe that sin is sin. I don't believe that there are big sins or little sins. To me, stealing is sin as much as lying is a sin. So no matter what a leader in a church may have taught or led people to do, I don't see - in the Word - where that sin is higher or lower on the totem pole of our sins.
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skyrider
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socks
Hmmm. Hmm.
Hmm.
"Sin". The very fact that different actions have different consequences, results, punishment and restitution indicate that there are different levels of sin, some worse than others.
The unrighteous nature of man is redeemed by one righteous sacrifice, made by Jesus Christ, on behalf of mankind. So all that unrighteousness, on all levels, is accounted for. Restitution made. That would be one way of putting "salvation".
That doesn't inherently define all unrighteous actions as the same, or equal to one another within that state of unrighteousness.
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rascal
*The word* defines different sins constantly. There is a list of *abominations* The lady caught in adultery was treated way differently than the money changers or the pharacees, by Jesus ..No? .... a clear indication HE felt there was a difference in sin and how they were to be addressed. There is an unforgivable sin even....
Your swooping analogy is even sillier md vaden...... if anybody had done as you describe in twi or school or any other group of folks ....they couldn`t possibly get a grasp on what the group was genuinely about or what was accomplished or not
There is much to be learned from each and every poster here about the direction they have been led since leaving twi.
As far as Satori`s post? Though extreme, there is a valid point being made...
Have you honestly considered the impact of wierwilles drugging and raping of our friends ...that the devistation in the lives of those assaulted by their trusted miniter and brother in Christ ...might be a tad more far reaching then simply going over long on a teaching?
Do you think that those of us who have spent the years trying to come to grips with this ultimate betrayal, or friends and family members lost to death due to wrong vpw/twi doctrine might consider your analogy obscene?
The people that were thrown out of the ministry and lied about ...declared posessed two that I know of for refusing sexual favors to lcm and vpw.....they lost their friends, their family, the spiritual anchor ..everything that mattered in life...some survived, some didn`t... and you can compare this to an overly long teaching??
Can you not see how deeply offending that your comparison is to those who suffered??
Read his post again md, there is a stark truth to be recognised in your thought processes....No of course you probably aren`t a child molester ...but your thoughts and ability to equate deliberate visciously destructive, morally outragious behavior that destroyed lives.....(yeah, some even died md) .... with the arrogance of taking more than your allotted time at a teaching.....can safely be compared with the obscene reasoning of a pedophile rationalising and justifying their actions towards their innocent victims...
You are guilty of arrogance and maybe boring a crowd to tears.....Wierwille and the child molester are guilty of destroying lives for selfish pleasure and personal gain.
There is no comparison....
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T-Bone
M.D. Vaden, perhaps you're a little confused over the issue on this thread. I agree with your general statement of sin being sin. No matter what the sin is – it is wrong in God's eyes. However, your disjointed logic of different sins deserving different consequences yet having no bearing on what church leaders have done – is puzzling and to that I firmly disagree. Execution for murder is punishment to fit the crime – as "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" – and I think a lot of our own code of justice has come from the Bible. There's laws in our country that address rape, stealing , lying, etc.
I am amazed that you do not understand the enormity of evil not only perpetrated but also inculcated by certain church leaders. I thought referring to II Peter 2:1-22 and Matthew 18:15-17 in my previous post was sufficient grounds for supporting what goes on here at Grease Spot. Consider Matthew 18:6, 7 "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!" Do you think it's important to Jesus that leaders are to help believers avoid anything or anyone that could cause them to stumble in their faith or lead them to sin? What makes you think it's okay to minimize what certain infamous TWI leaders have done? Why do you insist on diverting our attention from the real issue [their erroneous doctrines and practices] or manipulating us with some guilt-trip smokescreen?
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jardinero
Well said, my dear friend, Rascal.
And T-Bone.....I think one thing that was/is hugely missing in twi (and the number of offshoots I've visited) is a sense of humility before God. These guys' egos and self-righteousness are so big, it will take a genuine spiritual move towards Godly sorrow before they could even possibly "get" what you mean here.
J.
Edited cuz I haven't had enough sleep or caffeine yet to write intelligibly. :)
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Raf
Going overlong on a teaching is not a sin.
Comparing it to the worst deeds of VPW and LCM against the church entrusted to them is apologetic hypocrisy.
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satori001
Trust me Vaden, I gave it some thought.
Your position that "all sins are the same" is the intellectual convenience of a sociopath. It has nothing to do with that spiritual principle you so awkwardly ape.
Of course, that phony position, I am reasonably certain, stops at your own doorstep. If not, you might be equally offended whether someone crushed one of your dainty little shrubs under foot or just burned down your house.
With respect to my posts, Rascal really got it right.
What makes you evil is that the concept is not lost on you, not in the least. You simply blind yourself to it, just like a pedophile might, or any other kind of serial abuser, Wierwille for instance - all in the name of God? Is that possible? Not only possible, it's the rule. That is what crucified Christ. It's what makes a predator, or in your own case, an accessory, an aider and abettor to predators.
Except for your value as a specimen, you have nothing to contribute here, Vaden. You are devoid of sound judgement, barren of compassion. If my "disgraceful" remarks chase you off, I won't lose much sleep over it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that perhaps satori is being too kind to this guy.
I must admit that with the exception of the politics forum, I generally agree with satori's point of view...This guy is a real ringer.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Of course the doctrine that all sins are equal was taught by the same guy who was raping girls in the back of the bus...how convieeeeeeeeeeenient.
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satori001
"Finger pointing." As if to say Greasespot is about "finger pointing," and that exposing Wierwille makes one as guilty as he was, if not moreso. What a load of horse ..... Truth is the only greater sin in Vaden-land. Much like Way World. All other sins are equivalent, thus irrelevant.
Remember how much Wierwille hated "gossip?" Story tellers. Murmerers. Whisperers. Yeah, he knew what they were whispering about. He had a lot of open secrets at HQ, and he knew it would cost him if it all finally got out. That's why he went on the offensive, so followers would be hostile to hearing anything true about his shenanigans. And they were. Saying anything negative about slick Vic was grounds for ostracism, evidence of the adversary.
Swoop back in any time, Vaden. You make a good example.
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Belle
Very well put, Satori.
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