The "One Body" finger pointing thread. Try on the shoe.

[M. D. Vaden]

With all the posts about TWI, LC Martindale and WP Wierwille, doesn't it make sense to have a thread about us too?

You see, it's one big body in Christ. Every member in particular is as important as another no matter who we are.

Why limit the venting, sharing and information on Grease Spot to just TWI or Dr. Wierwille? Why not share and reveal the stuff about ourselves and each other on here as well?

That would paint a much bigger picture. We all attended and participated in the fellowships. So even if TWI tried to coordinate or manipulate the meetings and fellowships, we are still the ones who taught, the ones who sang, the ones who recruited, the ones who led meetings, the ones who attended.

So I'll go first.

There was a Branch meeting in Portland, Oregon area where I taught. I was asked to limit my teaching to 10 minutes so another person could share. But, I squeezed out near 25 minutes because that's what I felt I needed to get the job done. The next person had to cut thier's short.

Later, I realized that I was selfish, and most of my reason for teaching long was ego. Eventually, I figured out how I could have presented the same material in as little as 10 minutes.

But I was stubborn, egotistical and selfish. Nobody in the audience knew it. But now we know.

Now, who has a little bit of trash about themselves?

I've already heard about VP Wierwille. How about you?

We can't shift all the blame onto a few people. We still carried out many naughty or wrong things because we choose to. Dr. Wierwille could not have been in every state to control and influence everybody. Even his leadership were insufficient. We all did it. We are all responsible. We believed to act as we did as much as VPW believed to act the way he did.

Edited May 22, 2006 by M. D. Vaden

[dmiller]

Why limit the venting, sharing and information on Grease Spot to just TWI or Dr. Wierwille?

Why not share and reveal the stuff about ourselves and each other on here as well?

Well -- hmmmmm. I've told MANY a story here about myself. :(

Not only would I NOT reveal something about others,

I only know about others, if they choose to say things about themselves,

and then they said it --- not me.

Capice??

[rascal]

I personally have trouble relating to how vpw believed that it was ok to act....

Me? the worst *trash* I did in twi???

I abandoned my family without a back ward glance because twi said they were *senses* oriented and that to associate with them was to risk being tricked away from God.

I abandoned college and career because twi teaching said that this was worldly knowledge and worthless...that God needed me to learn *spiritually* so I must go wow and corpes.

I abandoned my beloved animals, hobbies, dreams, and goals because twi teaching said that God needed me in the spiritual battle and these were worldly/senses distractions.....

I gave away family heir looms and treasures because twi teaching deamed that were spiritually a burden....

By far the worst *trash* to tell on myself while in twi is that I aborted a child because twi teaching required I honor my commitment to complete the corpes program.

I don`t shift the blame on to people...I personally place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the counterfit minister who`s false truth and teachings enabled us to be manipulated into doing great evil in God`s name <_<

In hind sight, the *naughty* things that I did were entirely due in the most part to twi teachings.

Edited May 22, 2006 by rascal

[dmiller]

PS --- and also, I think MY STORY is just that. Eh??

[Oakspear]

When I run a "ministry" that tries to get 10+% of your money, assault young women in my motorcoach and put out a class that I claim is the truth that has not been taught since the 1st century, then you can post about my sins

[T-Bone]

With all the posts about TWI, LC Martindale and WP Wierwille, doesn't it make sense to have a thread about us too?

You see, it's one big body in Christ. Every member in particular is as important as another no matter who we are.

Why limit the venting, sharing and information on Grease Spot to just TWI or Dr. Wierwille? Why not share and reveal the stuff about ourselves and each other on here as well?

That would paint a much bigger picture. We all attended and participated in the fellowships. So even if TWI tried to coordinate or manipulate the meetings and fellowships, we are still the ones who taught, the ones who sang, the ones who recruited, the ones who led meetings, the ones who attended.

M.D.Vaden - I echo the sentiment of Oakspear. There's a BIG difference between what VPW, LCM and TWI have done and stuff about you and I. If I wronged you in some way - the offense should be dealt with as soon as possible between you and me - since it involves ONLY YOU and ME...But take it further - if we can't resolve our differences - as in Matthew 18: 15-17 - the matter escalates to involving more and more of the church. Another thing to think about is because of their level of influence and responsibilities - the impact of their malfeasance is on a massive scale - furthermore, because of their erroneous doctrine and practices something has to be said in that regard - as II Peter 2: 1-22 boldly does - and I see GSC serving that very purpose - a warning to others!

Edited May 22, 2006 by T-Bone

[pond]

i can take responsibility for the choices i made while involved in twi.

I made them because i trusted the people who played with my head about God almighty.

i had no motives other than wanting to belong to a group of people who claimed to be the chosen ones for God and said they cared and even loved me.

not to metion the fact God loved them more.

i do not apologize for being foolish, it happens to the best of all of humanity sometime.

i do not apologize for making a bad call on who to trust and listen to.

i may some day apologize for the legacy it has left in my enitre life.

[djs]

EEEWWWW!!!!! You will not be very well liked for this topic - that's for sure.

I completely agree with you about taking you own actions into account. I think if people did that - the ones who post on this site, then there would be a lot less to post about. After all, a person (vpw, lcm) only has power if people follow and buy into that power.

Otherwise, they ( vpw etc.) would have to do all the leg work themselves and only do the harm to themselves.

People have complained about all the "stuff" that has happened from the very begining............the ones who were actually there to witness it ...........

WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT IT!!!!!!!! Some of you kept you mouth shut - sat in mtgs where crap was definietly not taught right - AND SAID NOTHING DID NOTHING AND DECIDED TO KEEP TAKING IT.

YOU DECIDED TO EAT IT YOU DECIDED TO KISS A$$$ YOU DECIDED TO STAY AND PUT UP WITH MORE

Some of you even helped further the "other work of the ministry' the side not every one knew about.

Please see my disclaimer in my next post

[djs]

I'm not referring to those who were drugged and raped etc!!!!!!!!!! Please don't mistake that point in my previous post.

I'm talking about those who post here who saw stuff that raised many red flags and sometimes were out right in your face wrong.

They decided to ignore what they saw, experienced it and took part in some of it and NOW feel it is their responsibitly to tell all. Wouldn't it have made more of an impact if you'd done something back then?

Posters who admit that they witnessed this stuff sinned too - just like I know I did. There were plenty of things I walked by, many many things I was to afraid to confront.

I also don't have a problem admitting that I played a role in some of the evil control that happened in the 90's. I know my roll and have apologized to many people................and what's best is that I CHANGED my behavior. I also don't put up with it anymore - I DECIDED not to put up with the CHIT anymore -

GUESS WHAT - IT DOESN"T HAPPENED TO ME ANYMORE - no one has power over you unless YOU YOU YOU YOU allow it.

I'm not excusing the actions of vpw, lcm and the like with my next statement - please, by no means mistake that with my next question or think that I'm saying what they did was right. BUT NOT ALL THE RESPONSIBILTY LIES EXCLUSIVELY ON THEIR SHOULDERS

CAN YOU HONESTLY SAY THAT YOU CAN THROW THE FIRST STONE???????? or take the attitude that because your sin didn't reach the same level that you DECISIONS were of no matter????????

[George Aar]

Mssr. Vaden,

Re:"You see, it's one big body in Christ. Every member in particular is as important as another no matter who we are."

Gosh, I think it's swell that you have such "heart" to point that out to us, the slow-learners.

But, sorry, that may be where you live, but not me.

Some of us ARE jerks, dolts, or meatheads. Some are almost saintly. Some are productive, some are less so. Some contribute a great deal, some only take. Some add to world they live in and some only detract.

We're not all equal, we're not all part of some heavenly club. We're individuals. By now, individuals that should be able to stand on their own, carry their own weight, make their own decisions, and take responsibility for their own actions. If you feel compelled to confess all the times you fell short of some arbitrary standard, be my guest.

Just don't make it seem like we all owe the world an accounting of our actions, just because we all were members of the same jerk-off cult at some point in our lives...

[I Love Bagpipes]

DJS hit me square in the gut. The biggest thing I struggle with is my own hypocrisy while in TWI. I didn't speak up. I saw and chose to turn on the blinders. It still hurts and hits me hard at times.

I have discussed this with folks since leaving...sometimes at length. They have gently and kindly helped me see that the emotional/verbal manipulation of TWI produces (at least in part) the hyposcrisy which I ultimately found myself living. It is a subtle, chipping away process.

I think of the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, and other works I've perused on emotional abuse. Physical abuse (which I know went on in TWI in loads as well) is often "easier" to accept; there are physcial signs and scars. Emotional and verbal abuse (rampant in TWI) is much more complex and "murky," easier for most (including myself) to dismiss as an excuse (instead of a reason) for behaviour/choices.

What is the set up that caused me to go this route? At what point does one allow another to control choices and decisions? I don't think there is a quick and easy answer. But I have vowed to myself and God, as much as lieth in me, to not go there again.

[Abigail]

Guilty as charged.

I spoke up for a time, but as things became more and more controlled in TWI, by leadership, it became more and more apparently that not only was speaking up NOT causing anything to change, it was putting my family in jeapordy. The cost of speaking up was to have my children witness angry and sometimes violent arguments between their parents, the cost of speaking up would have been to have their family ripped apart. So for a number of years, I was guilty of remaining silent, even when someone I loved was being wrongfully reproved. Even when it mean selling myself out to a cause I was struggling to believe in.

Eventually, though, the cost of staying silent also became too much, so I left. The result was more violence and eventually a divorce.

However, the rewards have also been plentiful. My children now have a step-father who is wonderful. I now have a husband who is great beyond words. I now have the freedom to be myself and to speak up without paying a heavy price.

Yeah, I take responsibility for my actions. I am also aware of WHY I made the decisions I made - the motives. My motives were not wrong, even if my decisions at times may have been.

I wonder if VPW, LCM, Rosalee and some of the others can say the same thing about their motives.

[Belle]

Why limit the venting, sharing and information on Grease Spot to just TWI or Dr. Wierwille? Why not share and reveal the stuff about ourselves and each other on here as well?

If you look around, we actually do and have done this. Mine, personally, is in the My Story section as well as the 2nd interview on GS Radio.

Maybe you can tell me this....

Why do people come on here without looking around or reading threads, then automatically jump to the conclusion that they know what our problems are and what we need to do to "fix" them?

What makes them feel justified in judging us and making assumptions about who we are and what we are?

Why do they insist on lumping all of us into one bucket or label?

Why are labels so important to them, anyway?

What is the purpose for threads like this?

Who the he11 do those people think they are?

[Belle]

I'd also like to add for reference: Thanks for trying to "help" us.... <_<

[templelady]

Some people get over the past by admitting where they screwed up

Some people get over the past by claiming they were perfectly righteous and it was all the other guys fault.

Some people get over the past by admitting they did wrong and trying to exculpate their wrongs by demanding that the rest of the world admit it was as wrong as they were.

Healthy people get over the past by clearly seeing where they have erred while at the same time refusing to accept guilt or responsibility for the wrong action of others.

[Raf]

You taught long? That was the worst thing you did? You selfishly taught long? Ooooooh. A jewel off the crown for you!

I was an arrogant jerk! Still am, but at least now I know it and can work against it. Here's the key for me: I don't always have to be right anymore.

I'm free!

[M. D. Vaden]

When I run a "ministry" that tries to get 10+% of your money, assault young women in my motorcoach and put out a class that I claim is the truth that has not been taught since the 1st century, then you can post about my sins

That reminds me of sin rating systems where some sins are rated higher than other sins.

In one way, that may be true, such as a proud look or sowing discord between brethren.

[Raf]

Some sins in the OT got you asking for forgiveness. Others got you on the receiving end of a rock concert.

If I called you a dirty word, that would be one thing. If I raped you, that would be quite another.

True, both are sins. Both need forgiving. But to mock someone for "sin-rating" when God does it better than anyone... I don't know; strikes me as silly.

[I Love Bagpipes]

... Here's the key for me: I don't always have to be right anymore.

I'm free!

I TOAST to that dear RAF!!!!

[Goey]

Should we pronounce the benediction and all go home now ?

[Raf]

This thread strikes me as less an attempt to have people honestly come clean and more an attempt to gather info to nitpick on others who rightly hold LCM and VPW accountable for the harm they deliberately did to the body of Christ. I'm still dumbstruck that the best personal sin you could come up with for yourself is taking more time than allotted for a teaching/sharing.

[GarthP2000]

I agree with Raf on this one. Seems like M.D. Vaden has this fetish for guilt tripping. And a rather novel way of doing the diminishing/downplaying/"I'm sick and tired of reading about VPW's abuses" song-and-dance.

Don't want to read about them? ... I got a radical idea dude.

Don't read them!

<_< Christmas! You'd think that the VeePee & Me people would do something more productive with their time. ..... Like playing Window's Solitaire or something.

[Nottawayfer]

I am guilty of listening to the lunatic MOG yelling and screaming at the top of his lungs about other people's sins. The problem was that they probably confronted him about his own sins and then he made them look evil because he had so much to cover up and wanted the rest of the flock to believe him. I think he actually got himself all worked up and came to lunch to yell about things to get to us first.

He yelled constantly that we would rather have him yelling at us than Jesus Christ. Even back then, I thought to myself "No, actually Jesus would be much more righteous about it." I am wrong for not "getting it" back then. God was trying to knock on my hard head, but I wasn't listening to Him. I am truly sorry for that.

VPW and LCM made their own legacies. Hopefully VPW could live with his. He can't make it up because his life on earth is over. He may have made his peace with God before then, but still his wrongs echo in this world and will continue to do so until Christ returns. LCM still has a chance to make his wrongs right. I really hope he does.

[skyrider]

So I'll go first.

There was a Branch meeting in Portland, Oregon area where I taught. I was asked to limit my teaching to 10 minutes so another person could share. But, I squeezed out near 25 minutes because that's what I felt I needed to get the job done. The next person had to cut thier's short.

Later, I realized that I was selfish, and most of my reason for teaching long was ego. Eventually, I figured out how I could have presented the same material in as little as 10 minutes.

But I was stubborn, egotistical and selfish. Nobody in the audience knew it. But now we know.

Now, who has a little bit of trash about themselves?

One time I went too long in my interpretation of tongues and went into prophecy. I was egotistical and selfish and wanted to expound the greatness of God.

Now you know. :)

[Belle]

If I remember correctly, MD Vaden is notorious for swooping in puking his judgement on everyone and then leaves. I suspect that he will not be back, certainly not to have any meaningful dialog about anything.