... Martindale, the scapegoat for this mark/avoid doctrine in twi........was ONLY following wierwille's teachings. Now granted, he took the doctrine to newer heights (or lows), but nonetheless, he was obedient to what twi's founding president had endorsed!
Skyrider, on this point, you are correct. Lots of us oldtimers "from way back in those good old days of twi :) " know that it came from Dr. Wierwille. Even Craig himself wrote this, in his letter of April 14, 1989 addressed to the Staff Believers. Some must have forgotten what was what, but here's an excerpt:
... I expect godly, loving, honest obedience and support according to God's Word and nothing beyond that. This is not pushing anyone to carnality, but indeed doing something that Dr. Wierwille himself did on a number of occasions. I remember several times in which he challenged the Corps to say whether they were going to follow and stand with us in Corps leadership, or else just to leave. I was involved with him several times when he did it with 3 x 5 cards. Was that carnal? Certainly not. It was very necessary. How can anyone be flabbergasted that I would have the audacity to ask them to make these statements? It's beyond me.
Craig correctly pointed out the folly of some who were calling his actions Carnal... yet, they themselves fully accepted it, when Dr. Wierwille did the exact same thing years before.
Anyway Skyrider, do you have the letter by Dr. Wierwille, dated May 1977, addressed to Way Corps grads and students, that addresses this topic?
I have it... perhaps if I get the ambition I will retype its contents for Greasespot perusal...
I pdf'd it to myself, and it's not a very good copy. The original is not very good ... some words can't be read well. Plus it has some writing on it, some underlined sentences, some written words, and so forth. I guess I could white out what I can of the added script, re-pdf it to myself, and send it to whoever wants a copy...
Skyrider, on this point, you are correct. Lots of us oldtimers "from way back in those good old days of twi :) " know that it came from Dr. Wierwille. Even Craig himself wrote this, in his letter of April 14, 1989 addressed to the Staff Believers. Some must have forgotten what was what, but here's an excerpt:
"..I expect godly, loving, honest obedience and support according to God's Word and nothing beyond
that. This is not pushing anyone to carnality, but indeed doing something that Dr. Wierwille himself did on
a number of occasions. I remember several times in which he challenged the Corps to say whether they were
going to follow and stand with us in Corps leadership, or else just to leave. I was involved with him
several times when he did it with 3 x 5 cards. Was that carnal? Certainly not. It was very necessary.
How can anyone be flabbergasted that I would have the audacity to aske them to make these statements>
It's beyond me."
Craig correctly pointed out the folly of some who were calling his actions Carnal... yet, they themselves fully accepted it, when Dr. Wierwille did the exact same thing years before.
It's not so much folly as inconsistency.
Poor lcm- vpw can do almost anything, and people will justify his actions-
be a drunkard, rape, kick people out for insufficient grovelling....
but let lcm try the same things, and they say "hey! rape is wrong!" etc.
The key to what lcm wanted was the "obedience and support."
The window-dressing was "godly, loving, honest", which is why the
"godly, loving, honest" disagreements were met with FURY.
It WAS pushing people to carnality.
It was pushing people to carnality when vpw did it.
It was pushing people to carnality when lcm did it.
vpw got away with it.
So, it was ALWAYS wrong, but sometimes, people gave vpw a free pass
when he did wrong, although they would have realized it was wrong if
ANOTHER person did it.
We saw examples of this in the "vp and me in wonderland" thread.
vpw would have a chat with lcm, them announce the corps were all kicked out.
This was in violation of the gentleman's agreement, and the verbal and
possibly written contracts that were written. They agreed to show up, PAY MONEY,
and do their best without backing out. He agreed to run a program to the best of
his ability without backing out.
However, vpw (and lcm, who was the program's administrator) violated their
ends of the agreements when it suited vpw.
Then vpw offered the people-who had been acting in good faith up to the moment
vpw demonstrated BAD faith and kicked them all out-
a chance to re-enter the program where they were kicked out
without cause.
The chance required people to submit a 3 x 5 card
EXPRESSING THEIR WILLINGNESS TO OBEY LEADERSHIP.
vpw did it AGAIN with the people who had trouble making their money requirements.
He got them to agree to quit smoking and use that money for their requirements.
When some of them later admitted to still smoking, vpw kicked them all out.
Then he allowed them to re-apply with their 3 x 5 cards-
VPW had this huge cloak wrapped around him that said "our Father in the Word". if not for VPW there would be no TWI, no PFAL no Corps program, thus VPW was elevated far above just MOGFODAT status.
LCM on the other lacked the formidable pedestal of VPW. LCM was just a believer who made it to the top. Many could remember back when LCM was just new to TWI, there was a familiarity with LCM that no one ever got with VPW. Hence, lacking the cloak and pedestal of VPW, LCM was left in a less defendable position
... The key to what lcm wanted was the "obedience and support."
The window-dressing was "godly, loving, honest", which is why the
"godly, loving, honest" disagreements were met with FURY.
It WAS pushing people to carnality.
It was pushing people to carnality when vpw did it.
It was pushing people to carnality when lcm did it.
vpw got away with it.
So, it was ALWAYS wrong, ...
The terminology Craig used was "godly, loving, honest obedience and support according to God's Word and nothing beyond that ..."
Good Lord, there is NOTHING wrong or carnal in that... in fact, it is quite admirable and godly, especially rendering that godly support to those who one stands with for a united, godly purpose, as we had.
Heck, even rendering that kind of obedience and support to an employer wouldn't be carnal.
Part of my job, every day, is to give obedience and support to my employer. So if that action is carnal, then I guess I practice carnality every day? ... Bayloewnay... folks. :)
The terminology Craig used was "godly, loving, honest obedience and support according to God's Word and nothing beyond that ..."
[That was the terminology Craig used.
As I pointed out-and you completely skipped over-
most of that was window-dressing.
What Craig wanted had nothing to do with
"godly, loving, honest"
or "according to God's Word"
and CERTAINLY not "nothing beyond that".
Craig wanted "OBEDIENCE AND SUPPORT"
and couched it in phrases that allowed you to be tricked into thinking
that it was for OTHER reasons-the ones in the window-dressing.]
Good Lord, there is NOTHING wrong or carnal in that... in fact, it is quite admirable and godly, especially rendering that godly support to those who one stands with for a united, godly purpose, as we had.
[Good lord, have you forgotten his ENTIRE reign of tyrrany?
When he got to "and nothing beyond that",
that's when he REALLY got going.
He wanted control to the degree he thought he could potentially run every
home fellowship HIMSELF-he threatened it, after all.
He had all leaders reporting in, and people reporting ON the people
reporting in, and if you had any "godly, loving, honest"
questions, you were shown the door and kicked out.
If you were living on grounds, you got the "bum's rush."
We've got posters here all of that happened to.
They reported all this.
Where did this amnesia come from?
He taught the most RIDICULOUS NONSENSE, and when honest questions
came up, all were expected to just accept it and BURY any doubts.
This was the era where it was ALWAYS expected that you would
OBEY, OBEY, OBEY-
whether Regional Coordinator or new guy at fellowship-
and told that if the command was disastrous,
"GOD WILL COVER."]
Heck, even rendering that kind of obedience and support to an employer wouldn't be carnal.
Part of my job, every day, is to give obedience and support to my employer. So if that action is carnal, then I guess I practice carnality every day? ... Bayloewnay... folks. :)
[Did lcm want only this,
or did he want people to BLINDLY FOLLOW HIM?
When one poster asked lcm if this very same letter was a call to
BLINDLY FOLLOW HIM, lcm replied
"I HAD BEEN DOING THIS ALL ALONG."
So,
lcm himself said this was about blindly following him.
lcm's actions AFTER this show that it was all about blindly following him.
But lcm made a "campaign promise",
so Oldies says it must have been only what lcm said in his pious-sounding letter.
Seems silly to argue about 'what that letter says' since we have SEEN what the men actually did.
Both Weirwille & O'l Loy taught that someone could become 'SPIRITUAL' enough to 'HANDLE' things that were immoral and illegal. They EXPECTED their committed CORPS to STAND with them.
Both these men were experts at twisting WORDS... and it's being exposed!
from WordWolf~ He taught the most RIDICULOUS NONSENSE, and when honest questions
came up, all were expected to just accept it and BURY any doubts.
This was the era where it was ALWAYS expected that you would
OBEY, OBEY, OBEY-whether Regional Coordinator or new guy at fellowship-
and told that if the command was disastrous,
"GOD WILL COVER."
There are probably PLENTY of letters out there that make these two look good to the unknowing... but we've seen the FACTS & REALITY OF IT ALL. :(
Evidently what they wrote and what it meant were two different things~
That is exactly what he wrote in his letter, which was called "carnal" by some of those who had no problem when Dr. Wierwille wrote the same, and in even stronger terms.
What is more, the most vocal accusers of Craig's so-called carnality, were at the same time devoted to and giving obedience and support to Rev. Geer.
I think it was hypocritical to recognize the bitter, egocentric carnality of LCM's letter without recognizing the same bitter, egocentric carnality in Wierwille's identical actions.
Let's do a comparison:
The number of people who left in 1989 who later regretted leaving TWI,
v.
The number of people who stayed in 1989 and regretted staying in TWI.
I know plenty of people who left 1989 or before who are still Wierwille worshippers and don't regret leaving. My thoughts are that there are mores of those people. What am I missing here?
Wierwille was a cop-out..........he copped-out on the true doctrine of The Mystery, The One Body.
Wierwille talked a good talk in piffle.....but the believers' walk as fellowheirs in the One Body of Christ, with Christ as the Head, was suffocated by wierwillian dogma that was contrary to Scriptures. From 1977-1982, so much of the focus was on THE WAY MINISTRY and veepee's 40 years as its president.
And, the 1984 Sound Out event......was wierwille's aspirations to see "his kids" perform someday at the Grand Ole Opry. Again, the focus was on wierwille and his ministry.
Thus...................wierwille was a cop-out. He copped-out on God's Word.
Wierwille has his own agendas. He succombed to the works of the flesh and the pride of life.
His "Mystery Train"..........didn't have Jesus Christ as the conductor. Wierwille as sitting in one of the lounge cars smoking Kool shorties and sipping his drambuie.
In the late 70s, wierwille's corps meetings and staff meetings at hq were laced with cop-out terminology. He was most venomous when a twi clergyman walked away from "his" ministry.
Long before the days of mark/avoid..........wierwille was planting the seeds of banishment from twi and cursed by God. This cultish doctrine of "standing with only the way ministry till death" was watered and fertilized with out-of-context scripture. In fact, didn't several of those 4th corps men make a pact.....that if one of them should ever decide to leave twi, then it would be better that he just died [and not lose his accummulated rewards]..??
Martindale, the scapegoat for this mark/avoid doctrine in twi........was ONLY following wierwille's teachings. Now granted, he took the doctrine to newer heights (or lows), but nonetheless, he was obedient to what twi's founding president had endorsed!
In every sense of the word, wierwille promoted an "US versus THEM" mindset. Isolation was the name of the game.......and comformity to wierwillisms set the tracks for this train to run. As long as you were ON THE MYSTERY TRAIN.....you were counted among the privileged.
What a ride......?????
Martindale was too blunt and open about it......whereas, Rivenbark has merely adapted to the suble version that wierwille had used. But make no mistake about it........this cult environment is deeply rooted in the in-house terminology, the mindset, the elitism of the faithful remnant, etc.
Wierwille was a cop-out..........he copped-out on the true doctrine of The Mystery, The One Body.
Amazing ?? !!
So you are saying that he was a sinner? That he did something wrong?
What a revelation.
I don't agree with all that Dr. Wierwille said, and certainly he (like you, me and "them") has done things I or we don't know about...
... but what I remember about the man is that his teaching delivered me from 100 more fears and problems than he ever would have caused for me.
To a degree in Grease Spot, and to a big degree in the general populace that's not trinitarian, that's the hazard in making accusations against Dr. Wierwille even if you are absolutely right. The problem lies in the fact that many people were freed from many fears and edified in many ways despite small flaws; despite some secrets they may not have known.
well praise God you were delvered from your *fears and problems* md... For others here... the *fears and problems* vpw personally introduced and were caused by association with twi negate any minor good that he did.
You got some good in twi? GREAT ...some got messed up bad as a direct result of vpw/twi teachings...some even died.
Drugging, rape, extortion, drunkeness, lying...sorry these are above and beyond the catagory of *minor flaws* friend......
You got some good in twi? GREAT ...some got messed up bad as a direct result of vpw/twi teachings...some even died.
Following is a writing of a 10 year old little girl who lost her daddy because he was taught in TWI that health problems were weakness and lack of belief in God. He's been dead since she was 2; a daddy she never got to know.
"I walk in the dark hallway and I can't help but think of sadness and anger. I'm all alone and start to cry and scream. I try to think of who I love but it seems too hard. So many emotions flying. I can't stop screaming and I'm really confused! Then everything is still and I think of everyone I've lost. Three main people, my father, uncles, aunts and grandmother. It feels like you can't find light or maybe even air. I run to a door and when I open it there's light and beauty. I'm surprised because I feel so sad, because I'm still alone. Then I hear a voice but I don't know who. It tells me that I'm actaully not alone and I ask how. Them my mother appears and I get a big hug. I'm never really alone even when I'm by myself"
So you are saying that he was a sinner? That he did something wrong?
What a revelation.
I don't agree with all that Dr. Wierwille said, and certainly he (like you, me and "them") has done things I or we don't know about...
... but what I remember about the man is that his teaching delivered me from 100 more fears and problems than he ever would have caused for me.
To a degree in Grease Spot, and to a big degree in the general populace that's not trinitarian, that's the hazard in making accusations against Dr. Wierwille even if you are absolutely right. The problem lies in the fact that many people were freed from many fears and edified in many ways despite small flaws; despite some secrets they may not have known.
M. D.....What I am saying is that wierwille's venomous name-calling and actions did NOT line up with scripture. In teaching the One Body of Christ, with members in particular..........why the slanderous terminology of "cop-out" if one chose to move away from twi's confines???
Did wierwille own the way corps?
If Christ is head of the Church and leading his ministers, then why was wierwille ISOLATING all of us from the rest of the world? What did the label "cop-out" really mean to wierwille? Why the venom? Why not just bid one god-speed and wish them well on their journey in life?
IMO......wierwille was a cop-out.....meaning he really didn't allow the scriptures to hold him to the true standard. Wierwille promoted cult mentality.....and that's exactly what evolved. Isolation and conformity to wierwille's agendas were the order of the day.
I wasn't talking about "minor flaws"........I was talking about doctrine and living it.
The problem lies in the fact that many people were freed from many fears and edified in many ways despite small flaws; despite some secrets they may not have known.
SMALL flaws??? SOME secrets????
Couldn't be that the good actually came from the good, honest people who were in TWI DESPITE the man, could it?
If Christ is head of the Church and leading his ministers, then why was wierwille ISOLATING all of us from the rest of the world? What did the label "cop-out" really mean to wierwille? Why the venom? Why not just bid one god-speed and wish them well on their journey in life?
If you are talking about corps, I opine that Wierwille took corps commitments VERY seriously and as you pointed out, was a commitment unto the death.
So when someone left or waivered on that commitment, it was thought of as a cop-out.
This is different from your Joe Believer of twig who came once a week and sang and drank coffee and ate cookies and that's all he wanted to do.
You/we made a "commitment" to the ministry, and Wierwille held that commitment in very high regard and the breaking of it was consequential in his mind.
He also viewed the ministry as the 1st Century Church in the Twentieth, so therefore leaving the ministry you were leaving Jesus Christ.
This is nothing new, and not unlike many other religions.
If you are talking about corps, I opine that Wierwille took corps commitments VERY seriously....
oldies........If wierwille HAD taken the commitment seriously, then WHY was he bringing many of these corps women to his motorcoach.....exposing his side of drunkenness, adultery, lust-filled carnality, etc....?????
Doncha know........a double-minded man is unstable in ALL his ways.
Wierwille was an opportunist, a con man. And yes.........wierwille was a cop-out in every sense of this wayworld word.
He LEFT God......everytime he took corps girls into his motorcoach.
He LEFT God......everytime he had his drambuie & coffee filled while he was teaching corps.
He LEFT God......everytime he put stumbling blocks in front of those who wanted to learn more.
Wierwille WAS a cop-out.......he left the light of God's Word and took the carnal route to exploit the young and naive. And, he died wishing he had had the willpower to change and really live for God.
The problem lies in the fact that many people were freed from many fears and edified in many ways despite small flaws; despite some secrets they may not have known.
Darth Vader:
Small flaws???? molesting and fleecing the flock, plagarizing, drinking etc..........I hate to see what his big flaws were.
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oldiesman
Skyrider, on this point, you are correct. Lots of us oldtimers "from way back in those good old days of twi :) " know that it came from Dr. Wierwille. Even Craig himself wrote this, in his letter of April 14, 1989 addressed to the Staff Believers. Some must have forgotten what was what, but here's an excerpt:
Craig correctly pointed out the folly of some who were calling his actions Carnal... yet, they themselves fully accepted it, when Dr. Wierwille did the exact same thing years before.
Anyway Skyrider, do you have the letter by Dr. Wierwille, dated May 1977, addressed to Way Corps grads and students, that addresses this topic?
I have it... perhaps if I get the ambition I will retype its contents for Greasespot perusal...
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Nottawayfer
Oldies,
Wouldn't it be easier to scan it to a pdf file? It's a lot less work and time.
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oldiesman
I pdf'd it to myself, and it's not a very good copy. The original is not very good ... some words can't be read well. Plus it has some writing on it, some underlined sentences, some written words, and so forth. I guess I could white out what I can of the added script, re-pdf it to myself, and send it to whoever wants a copy...
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WordWolf
It's not so much folly as inconsistency.
Poor lcm- vpw can do almost anything, and people will justify his actions-
be a drunkard, rape, kick people out for insufficient grovelling....
but let lcm try the same things, and they say "hey! rape is wrong!" etc.
The key to what lcm wanted was the "obedience and support."
The window-dressing was "godly, loving, honest", which is why the
"godly, loving, honest" disagreements were met with FURY.
It WAS pushing people to carnality.
It was pushing people to carnality when vpw did it.
It was pushing people to carnality when lcm did it.
vpw got away with it.
So, it was ALWAYS wrong, but sometimes, people gave vpw a free pass
when he did wrong, although they would have realized it was wrong if
ANOTHER person did it.
We saw examples of this in the "vp and me in wonderland" thread.
vpw would have a chat with lcm, them announce the corps were all kicked out.
This was in violation of the gentleman's agreement, and the verbal and
possibly written contracts that were written. They agreed to show up, PAY MONEY,
and do their best without backing out. He agreed to run a program to the best of
his ability without backing out.
However, vpw (and lcm, who was the program's administrator) violated their
ends of the agreements when it suited vpw.
Then vpw offered the people-who had been acting in good faith up to the moment
vpw demonstrated BAD faith and kicked them all out-
a chance to re-enter the program where they were kicked out
without cause.
The chance required people to submit a 3 x 5 card
EXPRESSING THEIR WILLINGNESS TO OBEY LEADERSHIP.
vpw did it AGAIN with the people who had trouble making their money requirements.
He got them to agree to quit smoking and use that money for their requirements.
When some of them later admitted to still smoking, vpw kicked them all out.
Then he allowed them to re-apply with their 3 x 5 cards-
so long as they agreed to OBEY LEADERSHIP
and GOT THEIR MONEY IN.
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templelady
VPW had this huge cloak wrapped around him that said "our Father in the Word". if not for VPW there would be no TWI, no PFAL no Corps program, thus VPW was elevated far above just MOGFODAT status.
LCM on the other lacked the formidable pedestal of VPW. LCM was just a believer who made it to the top. Many could remember back when LCM was just new to TWI, there was a familiarity with LCM that no one ever got with VPW. Hence, lacking the cloak and pedestal of VPW, LCM was left in a less defendable position
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oldiesman
The terminology Craig used was "godly, loving, honest obedience and support according to God's Word and nothing beyond that ..."
Good Lord, there is NOTHING wrong or carnal in that... in fact, it is quite admirable and godly, especially rendering that godly support to those who one stands with for a united, godly purpose, as we had.
Heck, even rendering that kind of obedience and support to an employer wouldn't be carnal.
Part of my job, every day, is to give obedience and support to my employer. So if that action is carnal, then I guess I practice carnality every day? ... Bayloewnay... folks. :)
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WordWolf
[That was the terminology Craig used.
As I pointed out-and you completely skipped over-
most of that was window-dressing.
What Craig wanted had nothing to do with
"godly, loving, honest"
or "according to God's Word"
and CERTAINLY not "nothing beyond that".
Craig wanted "OBEDIENCE AND SUPPORT"
and couched it in phrases that allowed you to be tricked into thinking
that it was for OTHER reasons-the ones in the window-dressing.]
[Good lord, have you forgotten his ENTIRE reign of tyrrany?When he got to "and nothing beyond that",
that's when he REALLY got going.
He wanted control to the degree he thought he could potentially run every
home fellowship HIMSELF-he threatened it, after all.
He had all leaders reporting in, and people reporting ON the people
reporting in, and if you had any "godly, loving, honest"
questions, you were shown the door and kicked out.
If you were living on grounds, you got the "bum's rush."
We've got posters here all of that happened to.
They reported all this.
Where did this amnesia come from?
He taught the most RIDICULOUS NONSENSE, and when honest questions
came up, all were expected to just accept it and BURY any doubts.
This was the era where it was ALWAYS expected that you would
OBEY, OBEY, OBEY-
whether Regional Coordinator or new guy at fellowship-
and told that if the command was disastrous,
"GOD WILL COVER."]
[Did lcm want only this,
or did he want people to BLINDLY FOLLOW HIM?
When one poster asked lcm if this very same letter was a call to
BLINDLY FOLLOW HIM, lcm replied
"I HAD BEEN DOING THIS ALL ALONG."
So,
lcm himself said this was about blindly following him.
lcm's actions AFTER this show that it was all about blindly following him.
But lcm made a "campaign promise",
so Oldies says it must have been only what lcm said in his pious-sounding letter.
Ignore the fruit in lcm's life,
ignore lcm's policies.
lcm CLAIMED to just have godly motives-
when the cameras were on-
so that must be the absolute truth.
Bayloewnay,
salami,
luncheon loaf,
and a slab of pastrami.]
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SafariVista
Seems silly to argue about 'what that letter says' since we have SEEN what the men actually did.
Both Weirwille & O'l Loy taught that someone could become 'SPIRITUAL' enough to 'HANDLE' things that were immoral and illegal. They EXPECTED their committed CORPS to STAND with them.
Both these men were experts at twisting WORDS... and it's being exposed!
There are probably PLENTY of letters out there that make these two look good to the unknowing... but we've seen the FACTS & REALITY OF IT ALL. :(
Evidently what they wrote and what it meant were two different things~
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oldiesman
That is exactly what he wrote in his letter, which was called "carnal" by some of those who had no problem when Dr. Wierwille wrote the same, and in even stronger terms.
What is more, the most vocal accusers of Craig's so-called carnality, were at the same time devoted to and giving obedience and support to Rev. Geer.
*snort* *gag* *belch* on that pastrami
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Raf
I think it was hypocritical to recognize the bitter, egocentric carnality of LCM's letter without recognizing the same bitter, egocentric carnality in Wierwille's identical actions.
Let's do a comparison:
The number of people who left in 1989 who later regretted leaving TWI,
v.
The number of people who stayed in 1989 and regretted staying in TWI.
Gee, I wonder which number is bigger?
History proved us right.
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Nottawayfer
Raf,
Could you please explain more?
I know plenty of people who left 1989 or before who are still Wierwille worshippers and don't regret leaving. My thoughts are that there are mores of those people. What am I missing here?
Thanks,
WN
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skyrider
And, the other point I was trying to make....
Wierwille talked a good talk in piffle.....but the believers' walk as fellowheirs in the One Body of Christ, with Christ as the Head, was suffocated by wierwillian dogma that was contrary to Scriptures. From 1977-1982, so much of the focus was on THE WAY MINISTRY and veepee's 40 years as its president.
And, the 1984 Sound Out event......was wierwille's aspirations to see "his kids" perform someday at the Grand Ole Opry. Again, the focus was on wierwille and his ministry.
Thus...................wierwille was a cop-out. He copped-out on God's Word.
Wierwille has his own agendas. He succombed to the works of the flesh and the pride of life.
His "Mystery Train"..........didn't have Jesus Christ as the conductor. Wierwille as sitting in one of the lounge cars smoking Kool shorties and sipping his drambuie.
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Raf
WN: I was derailing. I'll reply in a PT.
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M. D. Vaden
Amazing ?? !!
So you are saying that he was a sinner? That he did something wrong?
What a revelation.
I don't agree with all that Dr. Wierwille said, and certainly he (like you, me and "them") has done things I or we don't know about...
... but what I remember about the man is that his teaching delivered me from 100 more fears and problems than he ever would have caused for me.
To a degree in Grease Spot, and to a big degree in the general populace that's not trinitarian, that's the hazard in making accusations against Dr. Wierwille even if you are absolutely right. The problem lies in the fact that many people were freed from many fears and edified in many ways despite small flaws; despite some secrets they may not have known.
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rascal
well praise God you were delvered from your *fears and problems* md... For others here... the *fears and problems* vpw personally introduced and were caused by association with twi negate any minor good that he did.
You got some good in twi? GREAT ...some got messed up bad as a direct result of vpw/twi teachings...some even died.
Drugging, rape, extortion, drunkeness, lying...sorry these are above and beyond the catagory of *minor flaws* friend......
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Shellon
Following is a writing of a 10 year old little girl who lost her daddy because he was taught in TWI that health problems were weakness and lack of belief in God. He's been dead since she was 2; a daddy she never got to know.
"I walk in the dark hallway and I can't help but think of sadness and anger. I'm all alone and start to cry and scream. I try to think of who I love but it seems too hard. So many emotions flying. I can't stop screaming and I'm really confused! Then everything is still and I think of everyone I've lost. Three main people, my father, uncles, aunts and grandmother. It feels like you can't find light or maybe even air. I run to a door and when I open it there's light and beauty. I'm surprised because I feel so sad, because I'm still alone. Then I hear a voice but I don't know who. It tells me that I'm actaully not alone and I ask how. Them my mother appears and I get a big hug. I'm never really alone even when I'm by myself"
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skyrider
M. D.....What I am saying is that wierwille's venomous name-calling and actions did NOT line up with scripture. In teaching the One Body of Christ, with members in particular..........why the slanderous terminology of "cop-out" if one chose to move away from twi's confines???
Did wierwille own the way corps?
If Christ is head of the Church and leading his ministers, then why was wierwille ISOLATING all of us from the rest of the world? What did the label "cop-out" really mean to wierwille? Why the venom? Why not just bid one god-speed and wish them well on their journey in life?
IMO......wierwille was a cop-out.....meaning he really didn't allow the scriptures to hold him to the true standard. Wierwille promoted cult mentality.....and that's exactly what evolved. Isolation and conformity to wierwille's agendas were the order of the day.
I wasn't talking about "minor flaws"........I was talking about doctrine and living it.
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topoftheworld
Shell,
My heart just breaks.
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Belle
SMALL flaws??? SOME secrets????
Couldn't be that the good actually came from the good, honest people who were in TWI DESPITE the man, could it?
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Goey
Yeah,
Rape, adultry, drunkeness, plagairism, general
nastiness, etc are simply "small flaws".
Yup, becase the great Doc Vic taught us "da Word" and we
all got delivered, his itsy bitsy little lapses like
rape and adultery must be demoted to "small flaws".
So let's not cast stones at the great Doc Vic cause we
are all sinners doncha know. Lets instead talk about OUR sins
and divert attention away from the great MOG in the sky.
Another Wierwille Apologist
LOL
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
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oldiesman
If you are talking about corps, I opine that Wierwille took corps commitments VERY seriously and as you pointed out, was a commitment unto the death.
So when someone left or waivered on that commitment, it was thought of as a cop-out.
This is different from your Joe Believer of twig who came once a week and sang and drank coffee and ate cookies and that's all he wanted to do.
You/we made a "commitment" to the ministry, and Wierwille held that commitment in very high regard and the breaking of it was consequential in his mind.
He also viewed the ministry as the 1st Century Church in the Twentieth, so therefore leaving the ministry you were leaving Jesus Christ.
This is nothing new, and not unlike many other religions.
The religion of my youth was similar...
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skyrider
oldies........If wierwille HAD taken the commitment seriously, then WHY was he bringing many of these corps women to his motorcoach.....exposing his side of drunkenness, adultery, lust-filled carnality, etc....?????
Doncha know........a double-minded man is unstable in ALL his ways.
Wierwille was an opportunist, a con man. And yes.........wierwille was a cop-out in every sense of this wayworld word.
He LEFT God......everytime he took corps girls into his motorcoach.
He LEFT God......everytime he had his drambuie & coffee filled while he was teaching corps.
He LEFT God......everytime he put stumbling blocks in front of those who wanted to learn more.
Wierwille WAS a cop-out.......he left the light of God's Word and took the carnal route to exploit the young and naive. And, he died wishing he had had the willpower to change and really live for God.
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outofdafog
The problem lies in the fact that many people were freed from many fears and edified in many ways despite small flaws; despite some secrets they may not have known.
Darth Vader:
Small flaws???? molesting and fleecing the flock, plagarizing, drinking etc..........I hate to see what his big flaws were.
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