Who says it precludes looking to God???? All GSC says is that it is not the Cafes job to promote same-- a different statement than that looking at God is precluded.
Yet equal to the same thing. This is very much a God issue and there's no way around that
"I dunno, I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure"
Please don't go there. I have had my fill of people telling me what God's will and pleasure is for my life. I have found over the years that it is usually just other people trying to pawn off their beliefs and lifestyle on me. If you are content with your God and at peace with him, Great, I am on my own spiritual path with Him and am quite content. Please don't tell me your God told you to tell me what to do. Some really good stuff has been shared on this thread, regarding what GSC is all about.
I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. To me, that’s His word and that’s the truth. If that doesn’t fire your jets, oh well. God Bless You :)
“What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!”
Now THAT is something that I can attempt to wrap my brain around.
I have had to wonder since leaving twi... where was God’s guidance and protection??
If there even IS a God
if those who were honestly seeking him found themselves in a cult that simply twisted scriptures to get us to achieve their own ends?? ...All of the betrayal, all of the suffering inflicted on people...many whom were already struggling from difficult lives.
Well said.
I dunno the *Joseph* scenario is pretty good.
What I see in the story of Joseph is that he must have felt so alone, so betrayed and so victimized… and yet we see God working in him and with him for, what? 30yrs? And then after all he went through, everything turns out to have “worked together for good” for him in the form of a huge victory. God was with him all the time, even when it seemed all was lost.
"I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings."
No problem free - all is well. I certainly have been enjoying my freedom to explore God in my own way and time. People 'round these parts are a little gun shy about someone coming on to the board and deciding they are here to "save us from ourselves". I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, I know I feel that way. If you are here to do that, good luck. But don't be surprised if you get some resistance, because alot of us aren't here for that.
"What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!"
Hope you don't mind my butting in with my two cents.
I would like to believe the "God is with us and will never forsakes us". However, in my own life, I have struggled daily to keep that thought in the front of my brain.
I was "raised" in a church before joining TWI. I even flirted with Jehovah's Witness before TWI as well. I always felt I had a bedrock foundational belief (pardon the phrase) that I knew there was a loving God and He was protecting me.
Well, the only thing I can truly say is-I'm not dead. But the things I endured both before, during, and after TWI have caused me to question the concept of God. And I can guarantee that it was my TWI experience that truly put me on shaky ground.
Seeing what happened to my friends, my family, and others in the world-how do you explain it? Having faith that God knows what he's doing? Hmmm......so a child is kidnapped, shot and burned alive (which happened to friend's daughter recently)...where was God in that?
So all I have left is faith-faith that is evidence not seen. That keeps me praying, keeps me moving forward, keeps me sane. I guess I've gotten to the "just in case" mode of survival. That's not the best way to live, I know, but it seems to be all I have left-and it's not always enough.
Wow, what a heart sharing! Thank you for the honesty. My experience was somewhat different.
As I’m sure you know, Hosea says that God’s own “are destroyed for lack of knowledge” It was a real breakthrough the day I first read that. It’s absolutely true.
See, I’m the firstborn son of a devout Irish Catholic father who died when I was 12yrs old. We’d never missed Sunday mass and naturally us kids all got our daily dose of mass and catechism in Catholic school which is all to say we were fully instructed and faithful (brainwashed) to the church because we loved and followed out dad. At the funeral the monsignor came up to me, looked down at me and put his hand on my shoulder and said “Son, it was God’s will”. The bad part, the really sad part is that I believed him. I bought it hook line and sinker and, because I did, my response was to walk out of that church and never go back and to hate God and anyone who tried to talk to me about God.
When I first joined twi, 18 daredevil years later, I read that verse, among many others, including the first chapter of Job, and the answer came clear. a) I found out that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all and I found out who really causes death and destruction and b) I found the reason my Catholic father died at the age of 41 was ignorance of the word of God because his church left him that way. I guess you could say that was my first experience being misled by a cult.
Since I left twi God has taught me many things they kind of skipped over or didn’t know. One of the biggest things is as follows: first, you have to realize the basis of all paganism is all about benefiting yourself. Likewise, in the OT when spiritless men followed our Father, God, it was all about faith in what God would do for them and faithfulness to obey Him.
Now things are different and all these faith-teaching churches like the ones you and I grew up in, the jw’s, twi, Joyce Meyer and that scary kid, Joel Osteen are all barking up the wrong tree because faith is no longer the issue. The spirit-filled believer has “the mind of Christ” and all the faith anyone could ever need and we don’t need anyone to tell us how to believe, what to believe, that we’re not believing or that we’re believing wrongly. Another thing that’s really important is that it’s not about getting something for your self. The main issue is this: Love. God is love and only those born of His spirit are capable of love because He dwells in them and works in them to will and to do of His good pleasure. Twi gave us a lot of the parts and pieces but then they soured the whole thing (made of none effect) by teaching and making the main point the “law of believing”. They are wrong and this is the first and foremost issue wherein they have led us wrong.
God is not about making people rich. God is about teaching people to love. Remember the teaching on “renewed mind”? Well, they talked about it in the context of ‘metamorphing’ into a being of enormous faith… that if you renewed your mind you would see all the ‘abundant life’ results they said were available. That’s just scripture-twisting, that’s all. In the first place we do not renew our own mind, God does! …and the true metamorphosis that takes place is changing from the hard-hearted, dog-eat-dog, watchin’ out for #1 babe to ‘perfect’, (mature) loving, soft-hearted, grown children, walking with our Father in love, carrying out the ministry of reconciliation. It’s amazing how wonderful the word of God becomes when you take off the rose-colored twi “God wants you rich – positive thinking” glasses and read it for what it really says. There is no guarantee of financial success. All those verses they pointed out that they said were promising us anything and everything were either talking about reimbursing the resources we gave out in our walk of love or the tremendous miracle results God will bring to bare when we are ministering to His people in His name. This might be in a prestige job with a six-figure income or flipping burgers, on skid row or in prison. God will send you where He sends you. It makes no difference. The true treasure we have in these earthen vessels is love. Another little point twi neglected to teach us, well, me at least, is that little clause Jesus taught; To pray for “Thy will be done…”. No, they taught us all about focusing our camera, etc., so we could get what WE want. What about God’s plan? What about what He wants?
Loving your neighbor as yourself or loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength have both been cited as the new and/or greatest commandment but in John 15, a tremendous chapter full of Jesus’ last instructions to His apostles, most of which they wouldn’t understand until Pentecost, we find this, the true new and greatest commandment:
“9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.”
People get freaked out when I say “God works in me” or “God told me”. I get freaked out that they don’t. As I said in another thread, there is no hierarchy in the body of Christ. There is one Lord and then you. No other Lord over you, no ‘father in the word'. That goes for all of us. Nothing more or less special about any of us. That stuff went out with the OT when only the prophets had the spirit and had to tell people what God had to say because he/she was the only one that could hear God. Now, of course, He is in all of us so hierarchy is no longer needed. He can move in or speak to any of us who are indwelt by His spirit.
This is the lack of knowledge I was talking about. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
"I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings."
No problem free - all is well. I certainly have been enjoying my freedom to explore God in my own way and time. People 'round these parts are a little gun shy about someone coming on to the board and deciding they are here to "save us from ourselves".
I never said anything regarding "save us from ourselves", did I? But I’d like to know… even though it says this site is for former twi members at any stage of recovery, even if their still prisoners in the belly of the twi beast yet it appears if someone is a standing Christian with the nerve to actually have something to say, they’re suddenly not welcome. This seems to me the height of hypocrisy. I’m sorry but that’s how I feel about people telling me “You can’t say that”.
What I did say is that “I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.” Maybe I’m right, maybe not, but what if…? It seems, thanks to twi, many here seem convinced in their heart of hearts that God is not there for them. That is the only real issue, not some supposed ego trip on my part to say I’m such a much. The point is, God is here.
I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, I know I feel that way. If you are here to do that, good luck. But don't be surprised if you get some resistance, because a lot of us aren't here for that.
Well, don’t be surprised if I resist right back. :) Honestly, I can't believe such open discrimination is allowed by this board. Don't they stand up for anything? What gives anyone more right to say what's on their mind than I? I just don't get it.
"I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings."
No problem free - all is well. I certainly have been enjoying my freedom to explore God in my own way and time. People 'round these parts are a little gun shy about someone coming on to the board and deciding they are here to "save us from ourselves".
I never said anything regarding "save us from ourselves", did I? But I’d like to know…
If you really want to know, it is obvious that this is not an offshoot of TWI where everybody sits around and talks about God. Nor is it a Christian site. You are the one who stated that God is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure here. It is a terrible mind set that TWI put us in, that we feel we have to swoop into any circumstance and "save" everybody from their wrong thinking. My thinking is more right now than it has ever been.
even though it says this site is for former twi members at any stage of recovery, even if their still prisoners in the belly of the twi beast yet it appears if someone is a standing Christian with the nerve to actually have something to say,
There are lots of standing Christians on this board who have had the nerve to say a lot of things about a lot of things. Who are you to assume that people who post here are not "standing Christians"? What is your idea of a standing Christian? See, these are the kinds of things you are assuming. It may not be TWI type of christianity that you are used to, but it is christianity. And others don't want a thing to do with God anymore. It's not christianity so much, but it is the ego with which you come across to me, that you are here to save us despite us.
they’re suddenly not welcome. This seems to me the height of hypocrisy. I’m sorry but that’s how I feel about people telling me “You can’t say that”.
Nobody has said that you "can't say that" and everyone is welcome I presume. Hey they let me be here But what you say may be challenged.
The point is, don't assume we are all here because we need "saving".
What I did say is that “I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.” Maybe I’m right, maybe not, but what if…? It seems, thanks to twi, many here seem convinced in their heart of hearts that God is not there for them. That is the only real issue, not some supposed ego trip on my part to say I’m such a much. The point is, God is here.
Well my belief is that God is everywhere. And if there are some here that seemed convinced that God is not there for them, I think God is big enough to work that out with THEM. If you want to do some really neat Christian stuff, then go to your local soup kitchen and feed the hungry, volunteer at your local Goodwill to help cloth them, help the guy at work who needs some help with his electric bill.......these are very humble and fulfilling activities that one can do for God.
I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, I know I feel that way. If you are here to do that, good luck. But don't be surprised if you get some resistance, because a lot of us aren't here for that.
Well, don’t be surprised if I resist right back. Honestly, I can't believe such open discrimination is allowed by this board. Don't they stand up for anything? What gives anyone more right to say what's on their mind than I? I just don't get it.
Resist away. I am sorry you felt that that means you can't say what's on your mind. Just remember that people here don't have to agree with you. Again, another assumption on your part when you say "Don't people stand up for anything? Alot of us stand up for alot of things. If you stick around you will see that.
When someone uses the "God is working in me to change you" line ... I pretty much put them in the same category as the used car salesman that says "trust me my friend" ... Don't trust him, and he is not your friend. God told me to tell you all this in this reply.
My Baptist uncle always condemned our poor sinner Lutheran family. Now I help him some, but he still likes to tell me I'm going to hell if I don't confess to him. He doesn't put in quite those words, but that's pretty much his attitude. At this point even his kids are terrible sinners ... even the ones that went to Bob Jones and the one that is a minister.
I haven't figured it out exactly, but there is a lot of ego and little humility in some of these "Christians". I remember after I was out of twi, getting a call from an anointed one (for sponsorship), gushing about how incredible it was God had called her to the corpse (and I had fallen from His grace apparently). "why me?" She was asking the right question at least. As I recall, she had previously done a stint with scientology. She was a special chosen one there as well.
What, pray tell is your god's good pleasure here? Has he sent you to save us? To convert us to whatever it is you believe your god to be? To make us ashamed for speaking ill of those who have raped and pillaged the flock?
How about starting a thread or two on topics you want to discuss instead of telling us how we shouldn't be discussing the things we do? You just might be surprised at some of the responses. Your attitude thus far reminds me of something a wonderful boss of mine used to say when people came to her complaining.... "If you don't have a solution to the problem, then don't come to me complaining about it. Give me solutions; show me examples and THEN we'll talk." ;)
Start a thread. Pretend we're all in the 'show me' state. :)
btw, I don't think there IS a problem. GSpot has been serving coffee, cinnamon buns and sloppy joes for years before you got here and I suspect there will be a lot more gum put under the counters after you leave.
[where's that puke icon when you need it?]
Addressing the actual conversational points and not twisting everything around to your agenda will get you a lot better service here. ;)
Also, not all of us have the same "preconceived notions" and I think mine are just as true as you think yours are, even though they are very different.
Well I see things are perking along nicely in my absence.
since I was responded to after I left I apologize for the tardiness of my response.
All GSC says is that it is not the Cafes job to promote same-- a different statement than that looking at God is precluded.
Yet equal to the same thing. This is very much a God issue and there's no way around that
It would appear to me that you definitely have a personal agenda geared toward how I and perhaps others on this board shoud display our commitment as Christians. I don't run around promoting that everyone eat breakfast in my little sphere of influence in this life but my not promoting it in no way precludes the people I know from eating breakfast. To continue to assert that not promoting God precludes God points, IMO, not to whether God is precluded, but more to your unwillingness to grant to your fellow posters their God given right of freedom of choice.
I said: I’d like to know… even though it says this site is for former twi members at any stage of recovery, even if their still prisoners in the belly of the twi beast yet it appears if someone is a standing Christian with the nerve to actually have something to say, they’re suddenly not welcome. This seems to me the height of hypocrisy.
-You said: If you really want to know, it is obvious that this is not an offshoot of TWI where everybody sits around and talks about God. Nor is it a Christian site.
Never said it was.
-You said: You are the one who stated that God is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure here.
Only because it’s the truth.
-You said: It is a terrible mind set that TWI put us in, that we feel we have to swoop into any circumstance and "save" everybody from their wrong thinking. My thinking is more right now than it has ever been.
Really? Hmmmm… well, that’s good but I never said anything about saving anyone. I said many here need healing. I’m not acting out of any terrible twi mindset. That’s an assumption on your part. I told you, God is working in me… and I do what he directs me to do …whether anyone likes it or not.
-I said: Even though it says this site is for former twi members at any stage of recovery, even if their still prisoners in the belly of the twi beast yet it appears if someone is a standing Christian with the nerve to actually have something to say,
-You said: There are lots of standing Christians on this board who have had the nerve to say a lot of things about a lot of things. Who are you to assume that people who post here are not "standing Christians"?
I did not “assume” any such thing. Where did I say there are no standing Christians? I didn’t. I was speaking of my own experience.
-You said: What is your idea of a standing Christian? See, these are the kinds of things you are assuming.
What are you talking about? How would you know what I’m thinking? Aren’t YOU the one who is assuming?
-You said: It may not be TWI type of Christianity that you are used to, but it is Christianity.
More assuming. What do you mean saying the “TWI type of Christianity that you are used to”??? Where did you get that? I left twi twenty years ago. I couldn’t sit through a twi fellowship any more than I could put up with a Catholic mass.
-You said: …and others don't want a thing to do with God anymore.
Fine. I don’t care. That’s their prerogative. I’m not trying to force anything on anyone. For 18yrs if my life I hated God. Been there, done that, wrote a book about it.
-You said: It's not Christianity so much, but it is the ego with which you come across to me, that you are here to save us despite us.
Ok, I can accept that but the rest is hooey. You’re entitled to your opinion but you are mistaken. I’ve not had anything to do with twi for twenty years and I go where God sends me and I say what I say and I do what I do because he inspires me. (and as far as I’m concerned that’s normal) not because of ego. Where did I say I’m here to save anyone?
-I said: They’re suddenly not welcome. This seems to me the height of hypocrisy. I’m sorry but that’s how I feel about people telling me “You can’t say that”.
-You said: Nobody has said that you "can't say that"
OK, I’ll correct that. That’s how I feel about anyone trying to dictate what I can or cannot say. Better?
-You said: Everyone is welcome I presume. Hey they let me be here But what you say may be challenged.
Fine! Challenge what I say all you want, but not my right to say it. I have been told I have opinions and I assume. Well, tough. Show me one person, any person on this board that doesn’t assume or have opinions. I will assume and opine til the cows come home all I want and I will say what I have to say.
-You said: The point is, don't assume we are all here because we need "saving".
*now banging my head on the counter and tearing what little hair I have left out* I NEVER said I was trying to save anyone, so that’s YOU assuming isn’t it?
-I said: What I did say is that “I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.” Maybe I’m right, maybe not, but what if…? It seems, thanks to twi, many here seem convinced in their heart of hearts that God is not there for them. That is the only real issue, not some supposed ego trip on my part to say I’m such a much. The point is, God is here.
-You said: Well my belief is that God is everywhere. And if there are some here that seemed convinced that God is not there for them, I think God is big enough to work that out with THEM.
OK so why don’t you ask Him? I never know why He sends me nor for whom. I just go. This is how my life has been for a long, long time.
-You said: If you want to do some really neat Christian stuff, then go to your local soup kitchen and feed the hungry, volunteer at your local Goodwill to help cloth them, help the guy at work who needs some help with his electric bill.......these are very humble and fulfilling activities that one can do for God.
What in the world makes you think I don’t? You are assuming.
-You said: I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, I know I feel that way. If you are here to do that, good luck. But don't be surprised if you get some resistance, because a lot of us aren't here for that.
-I said: Well, don’t be surprised if I resist right back. Honestly, I can't believe such open discrimination is allowed by this board. Don't they stand up for anything? What gives anyone more right to say what's on their mind than I? I just don't get it.
-You said: Resist away. I am sorry you felt that that means you can't say what's on your mind.
Well, then maybe you could please stop hassling me about it? Sheesh! LoL! (kidding)
-You said: Just remember that people here don't have to agree with you. Again, another assumption on your part when you say "Don't people stand up for anything? A lot of us stand up for a lot of things. If you stick around you will see that
I hope so. Partly what I see in some is the same kind of oppression I saw from twi, especially from the interim corps they used to send out here to do their wow year by taking over the whole area. Maybe some here haven’t changed so much as they think. (present company excepted of course)
What really bugs me is, personally, I think you’re pretty cool and worthwhile to talk with and we gotta waste our time debating this stuff? Many people have responded positively to me and I feel I can talk with them as I do with you. Others have assumed things about me that aren’t true and spent a lot of effort to misquote me, criticize me, censor me and tell me how I must speak, think and behave or else I can just hit the road because I am not welcome, even though this is contrary to the stated goals of this board. They seem to be hard hearted and proud of it. Personally, I would recommend they reconsider but, hey, they got a right. They are entitled to their opinion, I am entitled to mine but I have not tried to dictate anything to anyone. I just expressed my opinion which they can take or leave.
To clarify, hopefully for the last time, I am not talking about people pouring their hearts out because of the betrayal and abuse they received at the hand of twi. As I mentioned before, I have been around and this board is the best place I’ve seen, at least so far, for those who are hurting to chill, speak their mind and heal (or not) if that’s what they want and I thank God for it. I agree wholeheartedly with the original poster that no one should hassle or limit them in any way. I also disagreed with her in ways I’ve stated. I never said otherwise nor did I say I was here to ‘save’ anyone. On the hopeful side, I suspect some of the flak I’ve been getting is from people who feel protective of others who are suffering and I can appreciate that. …they might want to stop and consider that maybe they’re wrongly accusing me, and maybe, just maybe, my being here is a good thing. If you don’t believe that’s true, ask God.
Look, this isn’t going to change. If anyone has any complaints about me they should immediately go to my Boss and complain because He is responsible for my being here. I am what God has made me to be and I don’t apologize to anyone for it. He works in me to will and to do of His good pleasure and it’s been that way for a good, long time. As a matter of truth this is supposed to be normal for Christians to such an extent that my question is: “Why are you surprised? You mean He doesn’t work in you???” I can’t change what I am, nor would I want to. That’s the reality.
“Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye, for I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard”
It would appear to me that you definitely have a personal agenda geared toward how I and perhaps others on this board should display our commitment as Christians.
“Personal agenda”? Please tell me what you’re referring to by that. I don’t recall talking about anyone’s commitment as a Christian or displaying same. I didn’t mean what I originally said to criticize you or anyone personally. It’s just the way I see things… my opinion. So if you disagree, fine. Don’t I still have a right to state it? I mean, from what you stated you certainly don’t want me to “tip-toe around”, do you? I happen to agree with you. I just believe it should apply to my views as well as yours. All these misquotes and false accusations from you and others really leave a sour taste after your statements in defense of the injured.
I don't run around promoting that everyone eat breakfast in my little sphere of influence in this life but my not promoting it in no way precludes the people I know from eating breakfast.
Sorry, I guess I’m not smart enough to understand this analogy.
To continue to assert that not promoting God precludes God points, IMO, not to whether God is precluded, but more to your unwillingness to grant to your fellow posters their God given right of freedom of choice.
I have no interest in hindering anyone’s freedom nor have I tried to do so. However my freedom to express my views is being challenged at every turn. It really makes you seem to be a hypocrite. Did you mean what you said? If so instead of attacking me you should be just as indignant about my freedom of expression.
In fact, let me give your words back to you… “Balderdash, If you want to disagree with my viewpoint, Great. If you want to post your own ,vastly different experiences , great. If you want me to tiptoe around you and your... stance so as not to hurt your "itty Bitty Feelers" forgidaboutdit!!!”
Well, don’t be surprised if I resist right back. Honestly, I can't believe such open discrimination is allowed by this board. Don't they stand up for anything?
If GSC "stands up" for anything, it would be for no censorship.
What gives anyone more right to say what's on their mind than I? I just don't get it.
Nothing and no one. Everyone here has an equal right to say what is on his or her mind. That is the beauty of free speech, which btw, most people used to twi's method of operation do not comprehend.
If you encounter opposition when you voice your opinion, enjoy it. Embrace it.
If you want the freedom to speak your mind, you need to be willing to entertain the idea that the expression of your opinion just might find some opposition in the opinion of another person or group of people.
If you can't stand the heat, then I have to ask:
What are you doing in the kitchen? Put on an apron or grab a mop, or sit at the counter and have a cuppa joe.
But don't bitch about the help. They've got their hands full and do a bangup job IMHO.
However my freedom to express my views is being challenged at every turn.
please tell me when I said you were not free to express your views. What I did was disagree with some of your views-disagreement is not the same as forbiding-- just as not promoting is not the same as precluding
I said : You are the one who stated that God is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure here.
You said: Only because it’s the truth
I say: That sounds pretty condescending to me and nothing more or less than heard from the Way. I hear you saying that God is working in you to save those of us who don’t believe your way. You are here, super believer to save the day.
You said: Really? Hmmmm… well, that’s good but I never said anything about saving anyone. I said many here need healing. I’m not acting out of any terrible twi mindset. That’s an assumption on your part. I told you, God is working in me… and I do what he directs me to do …whether anyone likes it or not.
I say: Well aren’t you special. Guess God only works in you and us “needy” ones need you to save us from our despair.
You said: I did not “assume” any such thing. Where did I say there are no standing Christians? I didn’t. I was speaking of my own experience.
I say: You said, when a standing Christian comes on here, like none of us are standing Christians. You don’t know a thing about any of us here, do you?
You said: What are you talking about? How would you know what I’m thinking? Aren’t YOU the one who is assuming?
I say: You are the one assuming a lot coming on here and stating you are here because God is working in you to will and do of his good pleasure. A little humility on your part wouldn’t hurt. Why don’t you try reading around the site and listening instead of talking. Maybe you would learn something about this site and about the good people on this site
You said: I’ve not had anything to do with twi for twenty years and I go where God sends me and I say what I say and I do what I do because he inspires me. (and as far as I’m concerned that’s normal) not because of ego. Where did I say I’m here to save anyone?
I say: I think you said it all in the above sentence. And you wonder why I might be offended. Where God sends me…………TWI lingo all the way. If God has TRULY sent you somewhere, you don’t need to tell anybody, it will be obvious from what you share. You don’t have to announce that. That’s pretty egotistical.
You say: ……. and I go where God sends me and I say what I say and I do what I do because he inspires me. (and as far as I’m concerned that’s normal) not because of ego. Where did I say I’m here to save anyone?
I say: …….so God has inspired you to come to GSC and preach your message. I say BULL CRAP…..you are here to make yourself feel good.
You say: Fine! Challenge what I say all you want, but not my right to say it
I say: Not challenging your right to say it, just not agreeing with you and that is the freedom I have. My God is big enough to will and to do of his own good pleasure in me.
You say: I will assume and opine til the cows come home all I want and I will say what I have to say.
I say: Go for it dude.
You say: OK so why don’t you ask Him? I never know why He sends me nor for whom. I just go.
I say: Ask him what?? Again, isn’t that special that you and him have such a unique relationship, that you never know why he sends you or for whom . Talk about condescending…….. I just go cuz God says I should.
What really bugs me is, personally, I think you’re pretty cool and worthwhile to talk with and we gotta waste our time debating this stuff?
I say: Hey I am not just going to roll over like I did in TWI and have you tell me that you are here to save us “sinners” from ourselves. And that is exactly how you are acting. You can deny it all you want, but when you start talking about how God wants you at this site because he is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure blah blah blah,……….
You say: I can just hit the road because I am not welcome, even though this is contrary to the stated goals of this board.
I say: No one told you to hit the road or that you aren’t welcome. Just that your premise may be rejected or disagreed with.
You say: Look, this isn’t going to change. If anyone has any complaints about me they should immediately go to my Boss and complain because He is responsible for my being here.
I say: Again, very condescending. You may be here to learn something yourself, don’t assume he “sent you here” to do anything else.
You say: “Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye, for I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard”
I say: Oh Please, and that doesn’t sound condescending? Quoting the scripture now.
“Please tell me when I said you were not free to express your views.”
Again I am being misquoted. I did not say that you personally said that. What I did say is that you “should be just as indignant about my freedom of expression” (being suppressed) as you say you are “to let TWIers of whatever stage in their lives say what they think” because I am a “TWIer of whatever stage in my life” saying what I think, but when I post my opinion, that God should be INcluded, rather than PREcluded or EXcluded, I get all this “Hey, this isn’t a Christian forum!” and “You’re not welcome!”, “Hit the road!”, “Go somewhere else!” and “You have an agenda!” stuff. I can understand that some here may be kinda paranoid. Maybe they think I’m some waybrain spy or something. Well, I can’t control what people think. All I can do is stand my ground.
“What I did was disagree with some of your views - disagreement is not the same as forbidding -- just as not promoting is not the same as precluding.”
Really? Is that what you think you were doing? Actually, what you did was, besides misquoting me, you accused me of a) having a personal agenda, b) being deceptive and c) dictating to others, none of which is true. You're not disagreeing with me directly as in “I disagree because… and this is what I think is the truth” but, instead attacking me personally with misquotes and false accusations. You are not the only one, there are several and these are exactly the type of methods twi uses to M & A people and I, for one, won’t put up with it. This is what I was referring to in my original post and, ironically, it’s been very well demonstrated on this thread ever since I posted it. If you can’t “disagree” with me without misquoting me and making false accusations then I think maybe you need to take an honest look at yourself.
As for the point you were (I think) trying to make, I strongly disagree. The parties involved for every single “TWIer of whatever stage in their life” are three. Us, twi and God. He was there when the scriptures were being twisted and believers were being used and abused. He was there when people were suffering. He is also here. He has a vested interest. So my statement stands; to not include God in the picture is to preclude God and if anyone thinks He doesn’t know or care what’s going on here, they need to think again.
I say: That sounds pretty condescending to me and nothing more or less than heard from the Way. I hear you saying that God is working in you to save those of us who don’t believe your way. You are here, super believer to save the day.
Nope, just a regular, every-day believer.
I say: Well aren’t you special. Guess God only works in you and us “needy” ones need you to save us from our despair.
(LoL!!! Church Lady!) Nope, He works in all of us who have His spirit to the extent that we allow Him. Likewise, we are all “needy”. I don’t know where you get the words “to save us from our despair”. I never said that.
I say: You said, when a standing Christian comes on here, like none of us are standing Christians. You don’t know a thing about any of us here, do you?
Where do you get the idea that because I say I’m a standing Christian, I mean others are not??? That’s not even logical.
I say: You are the one assuming a lot coming on here and stating you are here because God is working in you to will and do of his good pleasure.
That’s no assumption, that’s what the bible says and I believe it.
A little humility on your part wouldn’t hurt.
Probably not. Pride is the hardest thing to grow out of, I think… I do know it starts with being humble to the word of God and believing what it says. I can certainly see that you are MUCH more humble than myself.
Why don’t you try reading around the site and listening instead of talking. Maybe you would learn something about this site and about the good people on this site.
You are assuming I haven’t... and, again you’re wrong, I have. As far as not talking, why do you want me to be quiet? …and who are you to tell me that? If you don’t like what I say, complain to God. When He tells me to keep quiet, I will.
I say: I think you said it all in the above sentence. And you wonder why I might be offended.
I sure do. I haven’t done anything to you that I know of.
Where God sends me…………TWI lingo all the way.
Twi doesn’t have a corner on the bible. No religion does.
If God has TRULY sent you somewhere, you don’t need to tell anybody, it will be obvious from what you share. You don’t have to announce that. That’s pretty egotistical.
I tell what God commands and I announce what God wants announced. This is the heritage of all Christians. Yes, God TRULY has sent me. Besides, what you just said is not true. God has sent many messengers, human and angel, who have told people they had come and announced it. The bible is full of examples. Not always but certainly not as you said. God is versatile. My ego has nothing to do with it.
I say: …….so God has inspired you to come to GSC and preach your message. I say BULL CRAP…..you are here to make yourself feel good.
Really? Oh yeah, it just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to take this "BULL CRAP" from you. Again, ask God if He has sent me here. When I was young my dad had a favorite saying I still recall: “A liar never believes anyone and a thief always locks his doors”… In other words, we measure others with the same yardstick wherewith we measure ourselves. So far, among other things you’ve accused me of condescending, being egotistical and now selfish. Maybe that’s because that's how you are? I don't know. I'm not your judge.
I say: Not challenging your right to say it, just not agreeing with you and that is the freedom I have.
Baloney. That’s just an outright lie. No, you’re not “just not agreeing with” me, you are viciously attacking me; Why? I don’t know. Again, what’d I do to you???
I say: Ask him what?? Again, isn’t that special that you and him have such a unique relationship, that you never know why he sends you or for whom . Talk about condescending…….. I just go cuz God says I should.
Maybe if you had ever humbled yourself enough to have let God work in you to serve Him you’d know that this is just SOP to His servants. This is how God works.
I say: Hey I am not just going to roll over like I did in TWI and have you tell me that you are here to save us “sinners” from ourselves. And that is exactly how you are acting. You can deny it all you want, but when you start talking about how God wants you at this site because he is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure blah blah blah,……….
Hey, YOU are the one with the hard heart going out of your way to attack me just because I believe in God and what He says in His word. I never said anything about ‘saving sinners from themselves’. You’re making things up as you go along. Do you know what that’s called? It’s lying.
I say: No one told you to hit the road or that you aren’t welcome. Just that your premise may be rejected or disagreed with.
Better re-read the thread… you’re wrong.
I say: Again, very condescending. You may be here to learn something yourself, don’t assume he “sent you here” to do anything else.
I always learn… every time He sends me but I don’t think you have anything in your heart I want to. Just venom.
I say: Oh Please! …and that doesn’t sound condescending? Quoting the scripture now?
And finally the mask comes off and you are revealed. So you don’t like me speaking the word of God around here? See how you like this:
“To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts”
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free2love
Yet equal to the same thing. This is very much a God issue and there's no way around that
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free2love
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free2love
You have a right to believe whatever you want. :)
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free2love
I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. To me, that’s His word and that’s the truth. If that doesn’t fire your jets, oh well. God Bless You :)
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free2love
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outofdafog
"I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings."
No problem free - all is well. I certainly have been enjoying my freedom to explore God in my own way and time. People 'round these parts are a little gun shy about someone coming on to the board and deciding they are here to "save us from ourselves". I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, I know I feel that way. If you are here to do that, good luck. But don't be surprised if you get some resistance, because alot of us aren't here for that.
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rascal
Yeah Fog ...the LAST time someone told me that God had sent em to me turned out pretty badly...I have to wonder ...
Were the messengers mistaken in what God called them to do?
Why would God call em to lure us into a snare?
Who`s will WAS being accomplished?
Did God ever give a damn in the first place?
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Bramble
I've had these same thoughts, Rascal. Also add to that--
Was it me? Was there something wrong with me?
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free2love
Wow, what a heart sharing! Thank you for the honesty. My experience was somewhat different.
As I’m sure you know, Hosea says that God’s own “are destroyed for lack of knowledge” It was a real breakthrough the day I first read that. It’s absolutely true.
See, I’m the firstborn son of a devout Irish Catholic father who died when I was 12yrs old. We’d never missed Sunday mass and naturally us kids all got our daily dose of mass and catechism in Catholic school which is all to say we were fully instructed and faithful (brainwashed) to the church because we loved and followed out dad. At the funeral the monsignor came up to me, looked down at me and put his hand on my shoulder and said “Son, it was God’s will”. The bad part, the really sad part is that I believed him. I bought it hook line and sinker and, because I did, my response was to walk out of that church and never go back and to hate God and anyone who tried to talk to me about God.
When I first joined twi, 18 daredevil years later, I read that verse, among many others, including the first chapter of Job, and the answer came clear. a) I found out that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all and I found out who really causes death and destruction and b) I found the reason my Catholic father died at the age of 41 was ignorance of the word of God because his church left him that way. I guess you could say that was my first experience being misled by a cult.
Since I left twi God has taught me many things they kind of skipped over or didn’t know. One of the biggest things is as follows: first, you have to realize the basis of all paganism is all about benefiting yourself. Likewise, in the OT when spiritless men followed our Father, God, it was all about faith in what God would do for them and faithfulness to obey Him.
Now things are different and all these faith-teaching churches like the ones you and I grew up in, the jw’s, twi, Joyce Meyer and that scary kid, Joel Osteen are all barking up the wrong tree because faith is no longer the issue. The spirit-filled believer has “the mind of Christ” and all the faith anyone could ever need and we don’t need anyone to tell us how to believe, what to believe, that we’re not believing or that we’re believing wrongly. Another thing that’s really important is that it’s not about getting something for your self. The main issue is this: Love. God is love and only those born of His spirit are capable of love because He dwells in them and works in them to will and to do of His good pleasure. Twi gave us a lot of the parts and pieces but then they soured the whole thing (made of none effect) by teaching and making the main point the “law of believing”. They are wrong and this is the first and foremost issue wherein they have led us wrong.
God is not about making people rich. God is about teaching people to love. Remember the teaching on “renewed mind”? Well, they talked about it in the context of ‘metamorphing’ into a being of enormous faith… that if you renewed your mind you would see all the ‘abundant life’ results they said were available. That’s just scripture-twisting, that’s all. In the first place we do not renew our own mind, God does! …and the true metamorphosis that takes place is changing from the hard-hearted, dog-eat-dog, watchin’ out for #1 babe to ‘perfect’, (mature) loving, soft-hearted, grown children, walking with our Father in love, carrying out the ministry of reconciliation. It’s amazing how wonderful the word of God becomes when you take off the rose-colored twi “God wants you rich – positive thinking” glasses and read it for what it really says. There is no guarantee of financial success. All those verses they pointed out that they said were promising us anything and everything were either talking about reimbursing the resources we gave out in our walk of love or the tremendous miracle results God will bring to bare when we are ministering to His people in His name. This might be in a prestige job with a six-figure income or flipping burgers, on skid row or in prison. God will send you where He sends you. It makes no difference. The true treasure we have in these earthen vessels is love. Another little point twi neglected to teach us, well, me at least, is that little clause Jesus taught; To pray for “Thy will be done…”. No, they taught us all about focusing our camera, etc., so we could get what WE want. What about God’s plan? What about what He wants?
Loving your neighbor as yourself or loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength have both been cited as the new and/or greatest commandment but in John 15, a tremendous chapter full of Jesus’ last instructions to His apostles, most of which they wouldn’t understand until Pentecost, we find this, the true new and greatest commandment:
“9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.”
People get freaked out when I say “God works in me” or “God told me”. I get freaked out that they don’t. As I said in another thread, there is no hierarchy in the body of Christ. There is one Lord and then you. No other Lord over you, no ‘father in the word'. That goes for all of us. Nothing more or less special about any of us. That stuff went out with the OT when only the prophets had the spirit and had to tell people what God had to say because he/she was the only one that could hear God. Now, of course, He is in all of us so hierarchy is no longer needed. He can move in or speak to any of us who are indwelt by His spirit.
This is the lack of knowledge I was talking about. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
God Bless
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free2love
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outofdafog
"I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings."
No problem free - all is well. I certainly have been enjoying my freedom to explore God in my own way and time. People 'round these parts are a little gun shy about someone coming on to the board and deciding they are here to "save us from ourselves".
I never said anything regarding "save us from ourselves", did I? But I’d like to know…
If you really want to know, it is obvious that this is not an offshoot of TWI where everybody sits around and talks about God. Nor is it a Christian site. You are the one who stated that God is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure here. It is a terrible mind set that TWI put us in, that we feel we have to swoop into any circumstance and "save" everybody from their wrong thinking. My thinking is more right now than it has ever been.
even though it says this site is for former twi members at any stage of recovery, even if their still prisoners in the belly of the twi beast yet it appears if someone is a standing Christian with the nerve to actually have something to say,
There are lots of standing Christians on this board who have had the nerve to say a lot of things about a lot of things. Who are you to assume that people who post here are not "standing Christians"? What is your idea of a standing Christian? See, these are the kinds of things you are assuming. It may not be TWI type of christianity that you are used to, but it is christianity. And others don't want a thing to do with God anymore. It's not christianity so much, but it is the ego with which you come across to me, that you are here to save us despite us.
they’re suddenly not welcome. This seems to me the height of hypocrisy. I’m sorry but that’s how I feel about people telling me “You can’t say that”.
Nobody has said that you "can't say that" and everyone is welcome I presume. Hey they let me be here
But what you say may be challenged.
The point is, don't assume we are all here because we need "saving".
What I did say is that “I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.” Maybe I’m right, maybe not, but what if…? It seems, thanks to twi, many here seem convinced in their heart of hearts that God is not there for them. That is the only real issue, not some supposed ego trip on my part to say I’m such a much. The point is, God is here.
Well my belief is that God is everywhere. And if there are some here that seemed convinced that God is not there for them, I think God is big enough to work that out with THEM. If you want to do some really neat Christian stuff, then go to your local soup kitchen and feed the hungry, volunteer at your local Goodwill to help cloth them, help the guy at work who needs some help with his electric bill.......these are very humble and fulfilling activities that one can do for God.
I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, I know I feel that way. If you are here to do that, good luck. But don't be surprised if you get some resistance, because a lot of us aren't here for that.
Well, don’t be surprised if I resist right back. Honestly, I can't believe such open discrimination is allowed by this board. Don't they stand up for anything? What gives anyone more right to say what's on their mind than I? I just don't get it.
Resist away. I am sorry you felt that that means you can't say what's on your mind. Just remember that people here don't have to agree with you. Again, another assumption on your part when you say "Don't people stand up for anything? Alot of us stand up for alot of things. If you stick around you will see that.
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rhino
When someone uses the "God is working in me to change you" line ... I pretty much put them in the same category as the used car salesman that says "trust me my friend" ... Don't trust him, and he is not your friend. God told me to tell you all this in this reply.
My Baptist uncle always condemned our poor sinner Lutheran family. Now I help him some, but he still likes to tell me I'm going to hell if I don't confess to him. He doesn't put in quite those words, but that's pretty much his attitude. At this point even his kids are terrible sinners ... even the ones that went to Bob Jones and the one that is a minister.
I haven't figured it out exactly, but there is a lot of ego and little humility in some of these "Christians". I remember after I was out of twi, getting a call from an anointed one (for sponsorship), gushing about how incredible it was God had called her to the corpse (and I had fallen from His grace apparently). "why me?" She was asking the right question at least. As I recall, she had previously done a stint with scientology. She was a special chosen one there as well.
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Belle
I repeat:
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templelady
Well I see things are perking along nicely in my absence.
since I was responded to after I left I apologize for the tardiness of my response.
It would appear to me that you definitely have a personal agenda geared toward how I and perhaps others on this board shoud display our commitment as Christians. I don't run around promoting that everyone eat breakfast in my little sphere of influence in this life but my not promoting it in no way precludes the people I know from eating breakfast. To continue to assert that not promoting God precludes God points, IMO, not to whether God is precluded, but more to your unwillingness to grant to your fellow posters their God given right of freedom of choice.
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free2love
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free2love
I didn’t say that. I said that God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. The “to change you” you added.
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free2love
“Personal agenda”? Please tell me what you’re referring to by that. I don’t recall talking about anyone’s commitment as a Christian or displaying same. I didn’t mean what I originally said to criticize you or anyone personally. It’s just the way I see things… my opinion. So if you disagree, fine. Don’t I still have a right to state it? I mean, from what you stated you certainly don’t want me to “tip-toe around”, do you? I happen to agree with you. I just believe it should apply to my views as well as yours. All these misquotes and false accusations from you and others really leave a sour taste after your statements in defense of the injured.
Sorry, I guess I’m not smart enough to understand this analogy.I have no interest in hindering anyone’s freedom nor have I tried to do so. However my freedom to express my views is being challenged at every turn. It really makes you seem to be a hypocrite. Did you mean what you said? If so instead of attacking me you should be just as indignant about my freedom of expression.
In fact, let me give your words back to you… “Balderdash, If you want to disagree with my viewpoint, Great. If you want to post your own ,vastly different experiences , great. If you want me to tiptoe around you and your... stance so as not to hurt your "itty Bitty Feelers" forgidaboutdit!!!”
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Belle
Alright. So what DO you want to talk about? How about starting a discussion? It's the "New Topic" button at the top of the page.
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Catcup
Review about GSC: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/aboutus.htm
Nothing and no one. Everyone here has an equal right to say what is on his or her mind. That is the beauty of free speech, which btw, most people used to twi's method of operation do not comprehend.
Review about the forum: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/forums.htm
If you encounter opposition when you voice your opinion, enjoy it. Embrace it.
If you want the freedom to speak your mind, you need to be willing to entertain the idea that the expression of your opinion just might find some opposition in the opinion of another person or group of people.
If you can't stand the heat, then I have to ask:
What are you doing in the kitchen? Put on an apron or grab a mop, or sit at the counter and have a cuppa joe.
But don't bitch about the help. They've got their hands full and do a bangup job IMHO.
And Belle--
Stop putting your gum under the counter!!!!
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templelady
please tell me when I said you were not free to express your views. What I did was disagree with some of your views-disagreement is not the same as forbiding-- just as not promoting is not the same as precluding
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outofdafog
I said : You are the one who stated that God is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure here.
You said: Only because it’s the truth
I say: That sounds pretty condescending to me and nothing more or less than heard from the Way. I hear you saying that God is working in you to save those of us who don’t believe your way. You are here, super believer to save the day.
You said: Really? Hmmmm… well, that’s good but I never said anything about saving anyone. I said many here need healing. I’m not acting out of any terrible twi mindset. That’s an assumption on your part. I told you, God is working in me… and I do what he directs me to do …whether anyone likes it or not.
I say: Well aren’t you special. Guess God only works in you and us “needy” ones need you to save us from our despair.
You said: I did not “assume” any such thing. Where did I say there are no standing Christians? I didn’t. I was speaking of my own experience.
I say: You said, when a standing Christian comes on here, like none of us are standing Christians. You don’t know a thing about any of us here, do you?
You said: What are you talking about? How would you know what I’m thinking? Aren’t YOU the one who is assuming?
I say: You are the one assuming a lot coming on here and stating you are here because God is working in you to will and do of his good pleasure. A little humility on your part wouldn’t hurt. Why don’t you try reading around the site and listening instead of talking. Maybe you would learn something about this site and about the good people on this site
You said: I’ve not had anything to do with twi for twenty years and I go where God sends me and I say what I say and I do what I do because he inspires me. (and as far as I’m concerned that’s normal) not because of ego. Where did I say I’m here to save anyone?
I say: I think you said it all in the above sentence. And you wonder why I might be offended. Where God sends me…………TWI lingo all the way. If God has TRULY sent you somewhere, you don’t need to tell anybody, it will be obvious from what you share. You don’t have to announce that. That’s pretty egotistical.
You say: ……. and I go where God sends me and I say what I say and I do what I do because he inspires me. (and as far as I’m concerned that’s normal) not because of ego. Where did I say I’m here to save anyone?
I say: …….so God has inspired you to come to GSC and preach your message. I say BULL CRAP…..you are here to make yourself feel good.
You say: Fine! Challenge what I say all you want, but not my right to say it
I say: Not challenging your right to say it, just not agreeing with you and that is the freedom I have. My God is big enough to will and to do of his own good pleasure in me.
You say: I will assume and opine til the cows come home all I want and I will say what I have to say.
I say: Go for it dude.
You say: OK so why don’t you ask Him? I never know why He sends me nor for whom. I just go.
I say: Ask him what?? Again, isn’t that special that you and him have such a unique relationship, that you never know why he sends you or for whom . Talk about condescending…….. I just go cuz God says I should.
What really bugs me is, personally, I think you’re pretty cool and worthwhile to talk with and we gotta waste our time debating this stuff?
I say: Hey I am not just going to roll over like I did in TWI and have you tell me that you are here to save us “sinners” from ourselves. And that is exactly how you are acting. You can deny it all you want, but when you start talking about how God wants you at this site because he is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure blah blah blah,……….
You say: I can just hit the road because I am not welcome, even though this is contrary to the stated goals of this board.
I say: No one told you to hit the road or that you aren’t welcome. Just that your premise may be rejected or disagreed with.
You say: Look, this isn’t going to change. If anyone has any complaints about me they should immediately go to my Boss and complain because He is responsible for my being here.
I say: Again, very condescending. You may be here to learn something yourself, don’t assume he “sent you here” to do anything else.
You say: “Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye, for I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard”
I say: Oh Please, and that doesn’t sound condescending? Quoting the scripture now.
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Belle
Outofdafog
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free2love
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