May I kindly suggest that to expose the errors and abuses of TWI and it's leaders, is not the same as saying "negative, bitter, snide and demeaning things".
Agreed. And I certainly don’t grieve any exposing which occurs… I’m just about the heart-healing that’s needed. Certainly there is healing in opening up and letting those secrets get some airing… I just think more than agreement that this really sucks is needed, and, among us, available. I guess I still believe in something called the body of Christ.
Is it really "bitterness" to talk about the bad stuff that happened in TWI? Is it really "demeaning" to call in to question the character of someone supposed to be a "man of god" who abused those he was supposed to be serving? Is it "negative" to question or disagree with the teachings in PFAL or the doctrines if TWI?
I couldn’t “disagree with the teachings in PFAL or the doctrines of TWI” more than I already do. Furthermore, the trust and love that a young believer typically opens up to those teaching them is a precious thing and I feel anyone who abuses that God given privilege, well, I’ll just leave that judging to God. As for talking “about the bad stuff that happened in TWI”, I’m fine with that but why should it preclude looking to God for answers and healing? People are telling me “Not here! Not here!” but this is a place where the need is crying out.
As far as saying things regarding God and the Bible, I do it often and have never been called down for it. My ideas have been challenged at times, but what's wrong with that? We can learn from others if we don't take the challenging of our ideas as a personal "attack". We have a doctrinal forum here for discussion about God and the Bible, and there are sometimes heated discussions. This I see as normal. And yes, there are a few agnostics and atheists on the boards here as well, but I find them generally more pleasant to converse with than the staunch VPW/PFAL supporters. So I am not too sure where you are getting your perspective from regarding saying things about God and the Bible..
I guess I have bit more to learn. Maybe you could direct me to some of your posts where you were doing so? I don’t know everything. I’m just responding to what’s welling up in my heart.
I'd also like to point out the Mission Statement from the About Us Section on the Home Page.
Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.
We want people to be able to make informed decisions regarding their past, present, and future affiliations with The Way International (TWI). Whether you are standing with TWI, thinking about leaving, trying to help someone else get out, or looking for support from others who have left, we believe the information here is highly relevant and well worth considering.
Thanks Belle. Been there, done that.
Sorry, Hon, but if you're looking for a Christian Forum, you're in the wrong place. If you're looking for a group of folks who are going to "gloss over" and ignore the rapes, suicides, lawsuits, destruction of lives, lies, plagiarism and doctrinal errors that TWI is responsible for, then you're in the wrong place.
Do you think I’m "glossing over" something? I don’t see it. Where did I do that? I didn’t read anything in those links you provided about Christians not being welcome but you say I’m in the wrong place? On what grounds? I guess I’m not politically correct, huh?
We're not all Christians here. We're not all the same Christian religion here. We discuss ideas, we get passionate about things TWI related and non-TWI related. We talk about movies, books, sports, doctrinal issues, current events, politics, jokes, etc. To focus only on the TWI discussions is a pretty narrow-minded view of all that the Cafe contains and offers.
Have some pie and hang out for a while; you just might learn something and make some friends. However, if you thought you were in a Christian Cafe, then you've gotten the wrong address. Try the next cafe down the street.
I have to admit I’m a little confused. First you welcome me and then generally imply in your post that I should hit the road. You tell me to hang out and then I’ve got the wrong address? This is all about Ex-Way and someone comes in who’s a Christian, seven years in TWI, twenty years out and you want me to hit the road? Oh well…
As for talking about the bad stuff that happened in TWI, I'm fine with that but why should it preclude looking to God for answers and healing?
Who says it precludes looking to God???? All GSC says is that it is not the Cafes job promote same-- a different statement than that looking at God is precluded
The crux of the matter is that if you come to GSC with preconceived notions of what GSC is or should be you are sure to be disappointed. But then, IMO, preconceived notions is what caused much of the problems within TWI--no room for independent observation or thought. Far better to see what GSC has to offer without filtering it through the glasses of "All TWI is good" "All TWI is bad" etc etc. Learning not to filter everything with preconceived notions is one of the first lessons, IMO , that you need to learn after exiting TWI.
It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible.
After twenty years (since I left) of bitterness, documented online in various forums ever since Trancenet, I'm tired of it. I know there is healing in venting and I don't want to just look the other way or ignore the pain that so many have gone through but there is also more to healing than venting. If anyone else is interested in discussing God’s calling and mercy and love in their life, I’d be blessed to hear from you.
Comments like these make it sound like you think God and the Bible are the end all and be all of healing. Fine if that’s your belief. We’re telling you that it’s not the same belief of everyone here. It also sounds as if you consider those who do speak of the evil in TWI are bitter, negative and wrong to say those things.
Obviously, I’m not the only one to see the same thing. :) Maybe you didn’t mean it “that way”, but it comes across as extremely judgmental and “demeaning” of those who do talk about the bad things they saw and experienced in TWI. Thereby doing the very thing you scold us for doing. ;)
Well, if you’re injured what do you seek out? If it were myself, I think I’d be looking for help and healing and, to me, it’s axiomatic that I’d be looking to God.
Axiomatic to you. Not necessarily for everyone else and some of us are not looking for help, but sharing to help others to know that they aren’t alone. You’re making an assumption, that’s not necessarily wrong, but also not necessarily correct.
Don’t you think maybe God has a vested concern in their suffering and would come to meet them where they are? Well, He can work through me toward that end any time and to any extent He wants and if He sends me here, this is where I’ll be.
And we extended our hands to you. Just be careful that you aren’t just assuming that God has told you to help someone because not everyone here believes God the same way you do and, therefore, you will be met with resistance.
I’m just about the heart-healing that’s needed. Certainly there is healing in opening up and letting those secrets get some airing… I just think more than agreement that this really sucks is needed, and, among us, available. I guess I still believe in something called the body of Christ.
This comes across as more assumptions as to where we are in our lives. You seem to be lumping people into one bucket and it’s just not only incorrect, but not right to do. You’re certainly entitled to your belief, but you’re not going to get anywhere by forcing “heart healing” on people, especially those who think it’s none of your business where they are in their recovery, healing and personal lives. Furthermore, not all of us believe in “the body of Christ.”
I’m fine with that but why should it preclude looking to God for answers and healing? People are telling me “Not here! Not here!” but this is a place where the need is crying out.
Again, your opinion and assumption. It sounds like you’re going to start pushing God on people and that’s just not going to go over very well. Besides the fact that this is NOT A CHRISTIAN FORUM. God is discussed, the Bible is discussed – in fact in the Doctrinal Section there are lots and lots of great discussions, but we do still disagree down there, too because “religion” is personal and we’re all persons with differences. We are mostly able to embrace and acknowledge those differences whereas the words you post don’t seem to do that.
Maybe you could direct me to some of your posts where you were doing so?
Under anyone’s profile is an option to see their posts. We’re all individual people here with different lives, thoughts, pains, beliefs, experiences, levels of healing and totally different personalities. Maybe you should get to know us before you start trying to help us?
Here’s my quote that you responded to:
Sorry, Hon, but if you're looking for a Christian Forum, you're in the wrong place. If you're looking for a group of folks who are going to "gloss over" and ignore the rapes, suicides, lawsuits, destruction of lives, lies, plagiarism and doctrinal errors that TWI is responsible for, then you're in the wrong place.
IF…IF….IF… your posts indicate that’s what you’re looking for, but I’m very willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to not communicating very well what you’re really trying to say in your perceived judgment passed on GSpot Café and the posters here.
More of my post:
We're not all Christians here. We're not all the same Christian religion here. We discuss ideas, we get passionate about things TWI related and non-TWI related. We talk about movies, books, sports, doctrinal issues, current events, politics, jokes, etc. To focus only on the TWI discussions is a pretty narrow-minded view of all that the Cafe contains and offers.
Have some pie and hang out for a while; you just might learn something and make some friends. However, if you thought you were in a Christian Cafe, then you've gotten the wrong address. Try the next cafe down the street.
and your reply:
I have to admit I’m a little confused. First you welcome me and then generally imply in your post that I should hit the road. You tell me to hang out and then I’ve got the wrong address? This is all about Ex-Way and someone comes in who’s a Christian, seven years in TWI, twenty years out and you want me to hit the road? Oh well…
Didja maybe miss the IF and THEN in my post? My welcome was gracious and sincere and I sincerely mean that IF you’re looking for something different than what GSpot is OR IF you think you’re going to come in here and “save” all of us or convert us all to believing God the way you do, THEN you’re sorely mistaken and will be nothing but disappointed and frustrated with us, which you already seem to be. Pity, because we’re a pretty darn good group of people.
Originally, I said: "It seems to me this is untrue. It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible. I wish this weren't the case but this is what I see in the threads and in the "radio broadcasts"
Welcome!
It seems that way if you read certain threads on certain pages, and skip other threads on other pages. You picked the "About the Way" forum where we post-imagine that!-about the way!
Of course I did. I am another who labored under their delusions for many years.
As another poster mentioned, this here partly functions as a support group (like AA). Emotions can run strong here as a result.
Point taken…
A regular problem is that a few people-not saying it's you-arrive, decide that vpw NEVER harmed anyone. ALL the victims who stepped forth are LIARS, and they personally are going to set us straight by insulting us all and yelling at us. Naturally, that gets some harsh responses. Likewise, people who refuse to even CONSIDER that twi ever taught them wrongly or ever lied to them often get harsh responses for obvious reasons.
So, you’re saying I’m being pigeonholed. Well, you’re right that I’m not in that group. VPW/LCM/TWI most definitely harmed me, misled me and taught me wrongly as wrongly could be, perhaps the most grievous of which being the totally lame “God wants you rich/positive ‘believing” doctrine they endlessly shoveled down my throat.
A major purpose for posting here is exposing the facts that twi tries to hide. Sometimes, we get a poster dedicated to hiding them as well. As one might expect, responses to that run harsh as well.
So it sounds like I need to be screened and initiated if I want to be accepted, ya? Funny, that sounds a little like twi, especially in later years, after I left.
So long as one is not IN one of those categories, the only harsh responses you get (outside the Politics forum) is usually from the people IN those categories.
I see (again) I need to learn and look deeper into what is being said and who's saying it...
Then I was quoted again: “Perhaps some will recall the old story about the evil drunkard who brought bread to the starving woman and her son and told her, as she was giving thanks, "God didn't give you that bread, I did!", to which she replied: "The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!"
God gave me many things by TWI and/but TWI also gave me a lot of junk. My relationship with God started before TWI and has continued since. TWI is/was not the be-all/end-all of my life. I feel that God led me in and that God also led me out."
My personal summary reads: "I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out."
One of the most hideous wrongs which twi committed is that, by their stupid “law of believing” teachings they doctrinally took everything out of God’s hands and put it on us, making us "little gods" This is why I tend to look look at things from God’s point of view… what He did, what He’s doing, what He thinks and intends. He did not rip our hearts out with constant brow-beating and tyranny. He did not seduce and rape our sisters. That was twi.
This surprises people who think ANY criticism of vpw or pfal or twi is equal to a desire to take a bulldozer to their buildings. Myself, I can separate discussions of doctrine from behaviour-although the subjects generally ARE interrelated. (Bad doctrine leads to bad practice, and vpw's practice of loose sex led to bad doctrines permitting it and promulgated among a precious few plus victims.)
Agreed. Good point.
And again: (Me) “After twenty years (since I left) of bitterness, documented online in various forums ever since Trancenet, I'm tired of it. I know there is healing in venting and I don't want to just look the other way or ignore the pain that so many have gone through but there is also more to healing than venting. If anyone else is interested in discussing God’s calling and mercy and love in their life, I’d be blessed to hear from you."
I strongly recommend looking around at Christians OUTSIDE the ex-twi community. Yes, Virginia, there ARE other Christians out there! And some of them really know their stuff!
Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. In the last twenty years I’ve been booted out of many churches, some publicly and ceremonially. …but your point is valid. I was, for example, greatly blessed one Sunday when God led me to attend a Baptist service where, that particular week, they just happened to be explaining their baptism doctrine. Imagine my surprise when I learned that they did not teach that one needed to be baptized to be saved as twi had taught me.
I also recommend skipping "literal translations according to usage" (or "this is what the verse is SUPPOSED to say, so memorize it"), and maybe trying a New American Standard Bible for a while. Without notes all over it.
It can stimulate new thinking and new discussions.
Even though I currently use about nine different versions and three different interlinears I must admit, that one is not among them… but your point is well made.
Thank you for taking the time for such a considered response.
The individual filters are there. They will always be there to some degree or another. We perceive things, process things, according to our experiences, knowledge, and understanding. There just isn't any getting around that.
The same goes for preconceived notions - we all have them. I have a "notion" regarding the Hollocaust, for example, based on the information I have received to date. Someone else may have different notion based on the information they have received to date. As we converse and exchange information, either one of us may change our notion, or not.
It isn't the preconceived notions that do us in - its either a) the unwillingness to consider other notions/information or b) personal attacks that shut us down and prevent us from having an exchange of information. THAT is what caused so many problems in TWI - we were taught NOT to consider any information from outside of TWI and we were personally attacked if we did.
Abigail, you certainly have a way of seeing things from all sides and stating those views succinctly. Thanks!
Gee tanx! OK, so now that you had a chance to think about it, waddaya think?
You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway.
It's two fundamentally different ways of looking at the world. One is that everything ultimately comes from God, no matter that it may look like someone else is delivering it. The other is that the individual who is doing the giving is the one who has the compassion, who decided to give, independent of any deity. Being a non-Christian, I might have (slight) cause for offense if my charity or philanthropism was credited to a god that I don't believe in.
It's one of those situations where the two views have no common ground.
If the evil philanthropist in the story was as evil as he is made out to be, he might have taken back his largess after being "dissed" by the po' folk who thanked god, but not their immediate benefactor.
It is the preconceived notions that produce the filters, notions such as everything outside of TWI is bad, Everything in TWI is bad, anyone who disagrees is bad, anyone who holds there position is bad. Got to get those notions gone. And yes, it is possible to look at the world and lay those notions aside.
Nothing wrong with “preconceived notions” as long as they are true. i.e.: “God is good”
Such notions you would not want or need to lay aside.
Of course, you are talking about the horizontal and I, the vertical...
"I dunno, I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure"
Please don't go there. I have had my fill of people telling me what God's will and pleasure is for my life. I have found over the years that it is usually just other people trying to pawn off their beliefs and lifestyle on me. If you are content with your God and at peace with him, Great, I am on my own spiritual path with Him and am quite content. Please don't tell me your God told you to tell me what to do. Some really good stuff has been shared on this thread, regarding what GSC is all about.
I dunno, I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.
What, pray tell is your god's good pleasure here? Has he sent you to save us? To convert us to whatever it is you believe your god to be? To make us ashamed for speaking ill of those who have raped and pillaged the flock?
How about starting a thread or two on topics you want to discuss instead of telling us how we shouldn't be discussing the things we do? You just might be surprised at some of the responses. Your attitude thus far reminds me of something a wonderful boss of mine used to say when people came to her complaining.... "If you don't have a solution to the problem, then don't come to me complaining about it. Give me solutions; show me examples and THEN we'll talk." ;)
Start a thread. Pretend we're all in the 'show me' state. :)
btw, I don't think there IS a problem. GSpot has been serving coffee, cinnamon buns and sloppy joes for years before you got here and I suspect there will be a lot more gum put under the counters after you leave.
Nothing wrong with “preconceived notions” as long as they are true. i.e.: “God is good”
Such notions you would not want or need to lay aside.
Of course, you are talking about the horizontal and I, the vertical...
[where's that puke icon when you need it?]
Addressing the actual conversational points and not twisting everything around to your agenda will get you a lot better service here. ;)
Also, not all of us have the same "preconceived notions" and I think mine are just as true as you think yours are, even though they are very different.
You seem to think that most folks that come here are somehow injured and still reeling in pain. That may be true of a newcomer just out of TWI or possibly a few others, but probably not of most of the regulars here, who for the most part have fairly well recovered from their wounds -- meaning they have moved beyond the hurts and live relatively functional and rewarding lives.
Well, I have to admit that’s a pretty positive evaluation. Sounds good… The reason I “seem to think that most folks that come here are somehow injured” is simply because that’s just a matter of fact. As for people who are “still reeling in pain”, obviously there a many various degrees of hardened/softened hearts around here. That tells me many are still hurting... and some have been healing and growing. My concern is for the suffering.
Because folks come here to discuss the negatives of TWI does not mean they are necessarily seeking anything other than the freedom to openly discuss things that TWI and a few others want swept under there rug or kept in the lock box. The open discussion does not necessarily mean folks are still hurting, (though some may be) nor does it necessarily mean they are bitter as it is sometimes suggested by new folks. To some of these passers by, speaking openly about the bad stuff in TWI is somehow seen as "bitterness" or "thinking evil".
I never said it did, nor do I begrudge any injured party their fair share of bitterness. I feel deep sorrow at the grievous wrongs done by twi in the name of God to those, myself included, who trusted them. But wouldn’t “seeking… the freedom to openly discuss things that TWI and a few others want swept under there rug or kept in the lock box” also be an indication they are looking for healing?
No, I am not characterizing the complaints of the wounded as negativity, it’s just that I see help and healing where it seems a lot of others see despair or apathy. My intent in saying such things is not to criticize anyone but to say to those who are injured and hurting that there is more… that God is there and knows their pain and wants to pull them out. …to remind them of God’s love for them.
Looking to God for help and healing is a great thing. I recommend it. However, it is not likely that all those who experienced evil and abuse at the hands of those they believed to be ministers of God, would look to God for help and healing.
What happened to some folks in TWI shook the very foundation of their faith in God and in "the Word". In TWI, God was "The Word". ("The Word" being what either VPW, LCM or Rosalie said it was) -- Later the ministry itself was "the Word" and in effect God. To serve God, you served the ministry (TWI). When that very ministry or its leaders failed them, abused them, or cast them aside, to some it was just as if God did it.
Well said! Exactly my point. Someone asked me why I said this represents such a victory for twi… I should think it would be obvious. If they have succeeded, with all their crap, to drive such a huge wedge between God and His children that they will turn anywhere but to Him for help, then twi has won and defeated His children …in my mind, exactly what twi intended in the first place. I, for one, want to see twi lose and their evil come to nothing. How about you?
So to suggest that these people trust "God" for help and healing might be a bit naive. Not everyone here believes in God. Many that do, no longer believe in God the way TWI taught or the way that you or I might believe.
Maybe it is you who “might be a bit naive”… When Joseph was reunited with his brothers who almost killed him and sold him into slavery, he told them: “As for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good”… That’s what I’m about. I look for God in all this evil and destruction that has befallen my brothers and sisters. I know it was not He who injured us even if they don’t… and, further, I know He has a purpose for them just as He did for Joseph. I will do my level best to tear down any such stronghold of sorrow and pain, especially when it prevents God's people from turning to Him.
What do we do with these folks (assuming they are seeking something)? Force God upon them? Quote scriptures to them? Castigate them for being bitter? -- I don't think so. That is a noble cause, but like God, you also must be willing to "meet them where they are." And they may not be where you think.
(see above) As for your last comment, I suggest you ask God if that is the case.
I was quoted; “The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me”
ok been thinking on this one. Sounds really quite bizarre after all
I remember when Geer's guilt tape came out how the way corps of America had murdered the way ministry or something along those lines
I started to feel SO GUILTY and someone in the meeting (dear Ralph Graham and/or Joe Fair) said something like "Ex, what is wrong with you? The guy is insane. You haven't done anything wrong" and a nice little light bulb went off in my head
That’s kinda how I feel about that devil delivering something to me from God.
Hope that makes sense
In context? …None whatsoever! LoL! But thanks for posting.
Actually, it’s my fault. I guess I assumed this was one of those stories that everyone knew, probly picked up by me in someone’s teaching sometime. This is more like the full version and I’m sorry my post was so cryptic:
This nasty old drunk was stumbling along the street one night and chanced to pass by an open window where he heard this awful wailing coming from inside… He stopped to peer in and saw a woman kneeling on the kitchen floor, holding her infant son and crying out to God for help because the cupboards were bare and she had nothing to feed her hungry child.
The drunk, totally disgusted with this noisy woman, grumbled to himself, “I’ll show that #%@*!” and proceeded to stagger across the street to a small shop and returned with a loaf of bread. He then heaved it in the window so that it landed right in front of her to which she responded, “Oh thank you Lord! Thank you! Thank you!” Then the drunkard stuck his ugly face in the window and bellowed, “God didn’t give you that bread, I did!”
The woman straightened herself, looked that drunk right in the eye and replied, “The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!”
Aww free to love, I am sorry that you saw my post as snide and demeaning....there was a valid point I was trying to make in a humorous way....oh well. I guess we read what we want to into people and their posts.
Sorry, my bad. I’ll try to do better. Honest.
Does the fact that we were *trying with all of our might to be true to God’s calling and love and mercy for our lives in any way mitigate the pain inflicted or the suffering endured as a result of our betrayal?
No, of course not.
I think that makes twi’s leaders actions even MORE reprehensible...No?
Agreed …absolutely.
In sorting it all out....figuring out where God was and how this could happen is vital for some of us in being able to re establish a trust in him.
I couldn't agree more.
I have no doubt that God might have led you here, nor do I discount your ability to be able to minister on his behalf...however...YOUR calling is not mine, nor is your experience or insight mine either.....please give my pov respect and I will endeavor to give you the same courtesy. :)
It's old waybrain that renders the following two sentences as mutually exclusive.
These are my memories of TWI, most of which are bad, very bad
My life is full of hope and promise and God's love.
Until you can accept that a person can be living #2 in the now and still discuss #1 in the now without losing any of what #2 has to offer, you can never really say, IMO, you are free of "waybrain"
I'm not exactly following you as to why you think that people leaving The Way and moving on in life in different directions is a victory for The Way. Could you explain a little more.
(Wrote this in another post before I got to your reply here)
Someone asked me why I said this represents such a victory for twi… I should think it would be obvious. If they have succeeded, with all their crap, to drive such a huge wedge between God and His children that they will turn anywhere but to Him for help, then twi has won and defeated His children …in my mind, exactly what twi intended in the first place. I, for one, want to see twi lose and their evil come to nothing. How about you?
I think those are great questions, I wonder those things as well.
Sometimes I think yes, God was there and God led me. Other times I think it is all in my head. What I do know is that despite the bad, I also experienced a lot of good in TWI. I grew up, I made some wonderful friends, and I do have some good memories.
There was plenty of bad too - but even from that I learned and I would not be who I am today if it were not for all of those experiences, good and bad. So, yeah, most days, I think He was there too - as He is everywhere with us.
Right on, Abigail. You sound like you have a big heart. To add somewhat to what you said, I think the same is true of the bible we learned there. Some of what they taught us was pure hooey but I know I learned many things that are true which I never would have learned had it not been for vpw’s ‘con man’ sales pitch or his plagiarism. In fact, had it not been for that particular combo, I know I would’ve never heard of Bullinger or Stiles or BG Leonard. On the other hand I honestly don’t think I ever learned one blessed thing from lcm. LoL!!! What a goober! ‘Greasespot by midnight’ indeed! Also, like you, I made friends while there that I love dearly and always will.
At any rate, I liken the whole experience to the story of Joseph. It wasn’t God who filled the hearts of his brothers with evil to betray and destroy him and it wasn’t God who sold him into slavery yet, in the end it turned out that God was with him through it all and, in fact caused great good to come out of it so that his entire family was saved from certain death in the famine. The famine no one but God knew was coming.
What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!
What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us![/size][/font]
Now THAT is something that I can attempt to wrap my brain around.
I have had to wonder since leaving twi... where was God`s guidance and protection?? If there even IS a God if those who were honestly seeking him found themselves in a cult that simply twisted scriptures to get us to achieve their own ends??...All of the betrayal, all of the suffering inflicted on people...many whom were already struggling from difficult lives.
"What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!"
Hope you don't mind my butting in with my two cents.
I would like to believe the "God is with us and will never forsakes us". However, in my own life, I have struggled daily to keep that thought in the front of my brain.
I was "raised" in a church before joining TWI. I even flirted with Jehovah's Witness before TWI as well. I always felt I had a bedrock foundational belief (pardon the phrase) that I knew there was a loving God and He was protecting me.
Well, the only thing I can truly say is-I'm not dead. But the things I endured both before, during, and after TWI have caused me to question the concept of God. And I can guarantee that it was my TWI experience that truly put me on shaky ground.
Seeing what happened to my friends, my family, and others in the world-how do you explain it? Having faith that God knows what he's doing? Hmmm......so a child is kidnapped, shot and burned alive (which happened to friend's daughter recently)...where was God in that?
So all I have left is faith-faith that is evidence not seen. That keeps me praying, keeps me moving forward, keeps me sane. I guess I've gotten to the "just in case" mode of survival. That's not the best way to live, I know, but it seems to be all I have left-and it's not always enough.
God is love. He cares and wants people to seek Him. All of what God is...exactly what God thinks... I don't think any person knows, except maybe Jesus Christ.
Right on
With what we have to go by, the Bible, there has been talk that even that has been tampered with. From what I see, God looks on the heart. If a person is involved in a group that isn't the best, God still looks on the heart. The leaders that knowingly 'lead God's own' astray... God doesn't like that.
Of course you’re right again. The tricky part of that is twofold. First, just where do we draw the line between the “person” and the “leader”? Twig leader? Branch? Way corps? I know one of the first things I thought about 20yrs ago when I left was all the people I’d taught and indoctrinated into PFAL and the “ways of the Way”. We thought we had found the good stuff and we all worked together to spread the news. So where does the responsibility end? So the first problem is hierarchy. When I got out, like many, I’m sure, the first thing I did was haul out the concordances and interlinears and started separating “meat from bones”. One of the first things God opened to me was that there is no hierarchy in the body of Christ. We who believe are to answer to and follow one Lord and I think you know who that is. No vpw, no lcm, nobody! One Lord! As it says in the bible about this time, “the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” Yes there are leaders but they are to lead as God directs them, not boss people around. No hierarchy. No man in any authority between you and your Lord.
The second thing is forgiveness. Ya know, twi never was very big on teachings about it, at least not when I was involved from ’79 to ’86, maybe before that, I don’t know, but, at any rate, I never heard a lot about it but, ya know something? It’s a pretty big issue in the bible. As a matter of fact it says we’re supposed to forgive them. Wow, what a concept.
Yes, God looks at the heart, it’s true, but in the hands of twi this became a substitute doctrine to the truth that God always looks at us with forgiveness… always. The “God looks at the heart” doctrine went right along with the “broken fellowship” doctrine. No such aminal! Never was. In fact it’s downright blasphemous to say or to teach that God’s forgiveness is anything but complete in any way, shape or form.
Generally speaking I must say it was a real joy finding out that what the bible really says far outshines the doctrines and commandments of men twi taught. They taught some things that were really right on also but, just as Jesus told us would happen, the lies they taught “made the word of God of none effect” in our lives.
I'm sure there are people still in TWI that love God and are doing their best. Just as there are those in the thousands of 'other' churches and religions in existence today. The sad part about 'groups' that turn 'sour' is, they all probably had the chance to change, but pride and ego got in the way, and they stayed the same, or became progressively worse. TWI doesn't give a 'voice' to very many. If the one-body were really working together, things probably would have turned out much better! :)
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free2love
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templelady
Who says it precludes looking to God???? All GSC says is that it is not the Cafes job promote same-- a different statement than that looking at God is precluded
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free2love
No filters here!
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Belle
Comments like these make it sound like you think God and the Bible are the end all and be all of healing. Fine if that’s your belief. We’re telling you that it’s not the same belief of everyone here. It also sounds as if you consider those who do speak of the evil in TWI are bitter, negative and wrong to say those things.
Obviously, I’m not the only one to see the same thing. :) Maybe you didn’t mean it “that way”, but it comes across as extremely judgmental and “demeaning” of those who do talk about the bad things they saw and experienced in TWI. Thereby doing the very thing you scold us for doing. ;)
Axiomatic to you. Not necessarily for everyone else and some of us are not looking for help, but sharing to help others to know that they aren’t alone. You’re making an assumption, that’s not necessarily wrong, but also not necessarily correct.And we extended our hands to you. Just be careful that you aren’t just assuming that God has told you to help someone because not everyone here believes God the same way you do and, therefore, you will be met with resistance.
This comes across as more assumptions as to where we are in our lives. You seem to be lumping people into one bucket and it’s just not only incorrect, but not right to do. You’re certainly entitled to your belief, but you’re not going to get anywhere by forcing “heart healing” on people, especially those who think it’s none of your business where they are in their recovery, healing and personal lives. Furthermore, not all of us believe in “the body of Christ.”Again, your opinion and assumption. It sounds like you’re going to start pushing God on people and that’s just not going to go over very well. Besides the fact that this is NOT A CHRISTIAN FORUM. God is discussed, the Bible is discussed – in fact in the Doctrinal Section there are lots and lots of great discussions, but we do still disagree down there, too because “religion” is personal and we’re all persons with differences. We are mostly able to embrace and acknowledge those differences whereas the words you post don’t seem to do that.
Under anyone’s profile is an option to see their posts. We’re all individual people here with different lives, thoughts, pains, beliefs, experiences, levels of healing and totally different personalities. Maybe you should get to know us before you start trying to help us?Here’s my quote that you responded to:
IF…IF….IF… your posts indicate that’s what you’re looking for, but I’m very willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to not communicating very well what you’re really trying to say in your perceived judgment passed on GSpot Café and the posters here.
More of my post:
and your reply:
Didja maybe miss the IF and THEN in my post? My welcome was gracious and sincere and I sincerely mean that IF you’re looking for something different than what GSpot is OR IF you think you’re going to come in here and “save” all of us or convert us all to believing God the way you do, THEN you’re sorely mistaken and will be nothing but disappointed and frustrated with us, which you already seem to be. Pity, because we’re a pretty darn good group of people.
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excathedra
too tired
we all do our thing
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free2love
Originally, I said: "It seems to me this is untrue. It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible. I wish this weren't the case but this is what I see in the threads and in the "radio broadcasts"
Of course I did. I am another who labored under their delusions for many years.
Point taken…So, you’re saying I’m being pigeonholed. Well, you’re right that I’m not in that group. VPW/LCM/TWI most definitely harmed me, misled me and taught me wrongly as wrongly could be, perhaps the most grievous of which being the totally lame “God wants you rich/positive ‘believing” doctrine they endlessly shoveled down my throat.
So it sounds like I need to be screened and initiated if I want to be accepted, ya? Funny, that sounds a little like twi, especially in later years, after I left.I see (again) I need to learn and look deeper into what is being said and who's saying it...
Then I was quoted again: “Perhaps some will recall the old story about the evil drunkard who brought bread to the starving woman and her son and told her, as she was giving thanks, "God didn't give you that bread, I did!", to which she replied: "The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!"
God gave me many things by TWI and/but TWI also gave me a lot of junk. My relationship with God started before TWI and has continued since. TWI is/was not the be-all/end-all of my life. I feel that God led me in and that God also led me out."
One of the most hideous wrongs which twi committed is that, by their stupid “law of believing” teachings they doctrinally took everything out of God’s hands and put it on us, making us "little gods" This is why I tend to look look at things from God’s point of view… what He did, what He’s doing, what He thinks and intends. He did not rip our hearts out with constant brow-beating and tyranny. He did not seduce and rape our sisters. That was twi.Agreed. Good point.
And again: (Me) “After twenty years (since I left) of bitterness, documented online in various forums ever since Trancenet, I'm tired of it. I know there is healing in venting and I don't want to just look the other way or ignore the pain that so many have gone through but there is also more to healing than venting. If anyone else is interested in discussing God’s calling and mercy and love in their life, I’d be blessed to hear from you."
Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. In the last twenty years I’ve been booted out of many churches, some publicly and ceremonially. …but your point is valid. I was, for example, greatly blessed one Sunday when God led me to attend a Baptist service where, that particular week, they just happened to be explaining their baptism doctrine. Imagine my surprise when I learned that they did not teach that one needed to be baptized to be saved as twi had taught me.Even though I currently use about nine different versions and three different interlinears I must admit, that one is not among them… but your point is well made.
Thank you for taking the time for such a considered response.
God Bless.
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free2love
First I said: "The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me... then:
"
Gee tanx! OK, so now that you had a chance to think about it, waddaya think?
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free2love
Abigail, you certainly have a way of seeing things from all sides and stating those views succinctly. Thanks!
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Oakspear
It's two fundamentally different ways of looking at the world. One is that everything ultimately comes from God, no matter that it may look like someone else is delivering it. The other is that the individual who is doing the giving is the one who has the compassion, who decided to give, independent of any deity. Being a non-Christian, I might have (slight) cause for offense if my charity or philanthropism was credited to a god that I don't believe in.
It's one of those situations where the two views have no common ground.
If the evil philanthropist in the story was as evil as he is made out to be, he might have taken back his largess after being "dissed" by the po' folk who thanked god, but not their immediate benefactor.
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free2love
Nothing wrong with “preconceived notions” as long as they are true. i.e.: “God is good”
Such notions you would not want or need to lay aside.
Of course, you are talking about the horizontal and I, the vertical...
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free2love
I dunno, I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.
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Oakspear
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outofdafog
"I dunno, I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure"
Please don't go there. I have had my fill of people telling me what God's will and pleasure is for my life. I have found over the years that it is usually just other people trying to pawn off their beliefs and lifestyle on me. If you are content with your God and at peace with him, Great, I am on my own spiritual path with Him and am quite content. Please don't tell me your God told you to tell me what to do. Some really good stuff has been shared on this thread, regarding what GSC is all about.
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Belle
How about starting a thread or two on topics you want to discuss instead of telling us how we shouldn't be discussing the things we do? You just might be surprised at some of the responses. Your attitude thus far reminds me of something a wonderful boss of mine used to say when people came to her complaining.... "If you don't have a solution to the problem, then don't come to me complaining about it. Give me solutions; show me examples and THEN we'll talk." ;)
Start a thread. Pretend we're all in the 'show me' state. :)
btw, I don't think there IS a problem. GSpot has been serving coffee, cinnamon buns and sloppy joes for years before you got here and I suspect there will be a lot more gum put under the counters after you leave.
[where's that puke icon when you need it?]
Addressing the actual conversational points and not twisting everything around to your agenda will get you a lot better service here. ;)
Also, not all of us have the same "preconceived notions" and I think mine are just as true as you think yours are, even though they are very different.
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free2love
Well, I have to admit that’s a pretty positive evaluation. Sounds good… The reason I “seem to think that most folks that come here are somehow injured” is simply because that’s just a matter of fact. As for people who are “still reeling in pain”, obviously there a many various degrees of hardened/softened hearts around here. That tells me many are still hurting... and some have been healing and growing. My concern is for the suffering.
I never said it did, nor do I begrudge any injured party their fair share of bitterness. I feel deep sorrow at the grievous wrongs done by twi in the name of God to those, myself included, who trusted them. But wouldn’t “seeking… the freedom to openly discuss things that TWI and a few others want swept under there rug or kept in the lock box” also be an indication they are looking for healing?No, I am not characterizing the complaints of the wounded as negativity, it’s just that I see help and healing where it seems a lot of others see despair or apathy. My intent in saying such things is not to criticize anyone but to say to those who are injured and hurting that there is more… that God is there and knows their pain and wants to pull them out. …to remind them of God’s love for them.
Well said! Exactly my point. Someone asked me why I said this represents such a victory for twi… I should think it would be obvious. If they have succeeded, with all their crap, to drive such a huge wedge between God and His children that they will turn anywhere but to Him for help, then twi has won and defeated His children …in my mind, exactly what twi intended in the first place. I, for one, want to see twi lose and their evil come to nothing. How about you?
Maybe it is you who “might be a bit naive”… When Joseph was reunited with his brothers who almost killed him and sold him into slavery, he told them: “As for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good”… That’s what I’m about. I look for God in all this evil and destruction that has befallen my brothers and sisters. I know it was not He who injured us even if they don’t… and, further, I know He has a purpose for them just as He did for Joseph. I will do my level best to tear down any such stronghold of sorrow and pain, especially when it prevents God's people from turning to Him.(see above) As for your last comment, I suggest you ask God if that is the case.
God Bless You! :)
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free2love
I was quoted; “The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me”
In context? …None whatsoever! LoL! But thanks for posting.
Actually, it’s my fault. I guess I assumed this was one of those stories that everyone knew, probly picked up by me in someone’s teaching sometime. This is more like the full version and I’m sorry my post was so cryptic:
This nasty old drunk was stumbling along the street one night and chanced to pass by an open window where he heard this awful wailing coming from inside… He stopped to peer in and saw a woman kneeling on the kitchen floor, holding her infant son and crying out to God for help because the cupboards were bare and she had nothing to feed her hungry child.
The drunk, totally disgusted with this noisy woman, grumbled to himself, “I’ll show that #%@*!” and proceeded to stagger across the street to a small shop and returned with a loaf of bread. He then heaved it in the window so that it landed right in front of her to which she responded, “Oh thank you Lord! Thank you! Thank you!” Then the drunkard stuck his ugly face in the window and bellowed, “God didn’t give you that bread, I did!”
The woman straightened herself, looked that drunk right in the eye and replied, “The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!”
I hope that’s clearer.
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free2love
Sorry, my bad. I’ll try to do better. Honest.
No, of course not.Agreed …absolutely.
I couldn't agree more.Point taken. Thanks :)
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free2love
Huh? :blink:
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free2love
(Wrote this in another post before I got to your reply here)
Someone asked me why I said this represents such a victory for twi… I should think it would be obvious. If they have succeeded, with all their crap, to drive such a huge wedge between God and His children that they will turn anywhere but to Him for help, then twi has won and defeated His children …in my mind, exactly what twi intended in the first place. I, for one, want to see twi lose and their evil come to nothing. How about you?
Does that answer your question?
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free2love
Right on, Abigail. You sound like you have a big heart. To add somewhat to what you said, I think the same is true of the bible we learned there. Some of what they taught us was pure hooey but I know I learned many things that are true which I never would have learned had it not been for vpw’s ‘con man’ sales pitch or his plagiarism. In fact, had it not been for that particular combo, I know I would’ve never heard of Bullinger or Stiles or BG Leonard. On the other hand I honestly don’t think I ever learned one blessed thing from lcm. LoL!!! What a goober! ‘Greasespot by midnight’ indeed! Also, like you, I made friends while there that I love dearly and always will.
At any rate, I liken the whole experience to the story of Joseph. It wasn’t God who filled the hearts of his brothers with evil to betray and destroy him and it wasn’t God who sold him into slavery yet, in the end it turned out that God was with him through it all and, in fact caused great good to come out of it so that his entire family was saved from certain death in the famine. The famine no one but God knew was coming.
What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!
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rascal
What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us![/size][/font]
Now THAT is something that I can attempt to wrap my brain around.
I have had to wonder since leaving twi... where was God`s guidance and protection?? If there even IS a God if those who were honestly seeking him found themselves in a cult that simply twisted scriptures to get us to achieve their own ends??...All of the betrayal, all of the suffering inflicted on people...many whom were already struggling from difficult lives.
I dunno the *Joseph* scenario is pretty good.
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topoftheworld
"What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!"
Hope you don't mind my butting in with my two cents.
I would like to believe the "God is with us and will never forsakes us". However, in my own life, I have struggled daily to keep that thought in the front of my brain.
I was "raised" in a church before joining TWI. I even flirted with Jehovah's Witness before TWI as well. I always felt I had a bedrock foundational belief (pardon the phrase) that I knew there was a loving God and He was protecting me.
Well, the only thing I can truly say is-I'm not dead. But the things I endured both before, during, and after TWI have caused me to question the concept of God. And I can guarantee that it was my TWI experience that truly put me on shaky ground.
Seeing what happened to my friends, my family, and others in the world-how do you explain it? Having faith that God knows what he's doing? Hmmm......so a child is kidnapped, shot and burned alive (which happened to friend's daughter recently)...where was God in that?
So all I have left is faith-faith that is evidence not seen. That keeps me praying, keeps me moving forward, keeps me sane. I guess I've gotten to the "just in case" mode of survival. That's not the best way to live, I know, but it seems to be all I have left-and it's not always enough.
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free2love
Right on
Of course you’re right again. The tricky part of that is twofold. First, just where do we draw the line between the “person” and the “leader”? Twig leader? Branch? Way corps? I know one of the first things I thought about 20yrs ago when I left was all the people I’d taught and indoctrinated into PFAL and the “ways of the Way”. We thought we had found the good stuff and we all worked together to spread the news. So where does the responsibility end? So the first problem is hierarchy. When I got out, like many, I’m sure, the first thing I did was haul out the concordances and interlinears and started separating “meat from bones”. One of the first things God opened to me was that there is no hierarchy in the body of Christ. We who believe are to answer to and follow one Lord and I think you know who that is. No vpw, no lcm, nobody! One Lord! As it says in the bible about this time, “the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” Yes there are leaders but they are to lead as God directs them, not boss people around. No hierarchy. No man in any authority between you and your Lord.The second thing is forgiveness. Ya know, twi never was very big on teachings about it, at least not when I was involved from ’79 to ’86, maybe before that, I don’t know, but, at any rate, I never heard a lot about it but, ya know something? It’s a pretty big issue in the bible. As a matter of fact it says we’re supposed to forgive them. Wow, what a concept.
Yes, God looks at the heart, it’s true, but in the hands of twi this became a substitute doctrine to the truth that God always looks at us with forgiveness… always. The “God looks at the heart” doctrine went right along with the “broken fellowship” doctrine. No such aminal! Never was. In fact it’s downright blasphemous to say or to teach that God’s forgiveness is anything but complete in any way, shape or form.
Generally speaking I must say it was a real joy finding out that what the bible really says far outshines the doctrines and commandments of men twi taught. They taught some things that were really right on also but, just as Jesus told us would happen, the lies they taught “made the word of God of none effect” in our lives.
amen! :)
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