I'd also like to point out the Mission Statement from the About Us Section on the Home Page.
Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.
We want people to be able to make informed decisions regarding their past, present, and future affiliations with The Way International (TWI). Whether you are standing with TWI, thinking about leaving, trying to help someone else get out, or looking for support from others who have left, we believe the information here is highly relevant and well worth considering.
Sorry, Hon, but if you're looking for a Christian Forum, you're in the wrong place. If you're looking for a group of folks who are going to "gloss over" and ignore the rapes, suicides, lawsuits, destruction of lives, lies, plagarism and doctrinal errors that TWI is responsible for, then you're in the wrong place.
We're not all Christians here. We're not all the same Christian religion here. We discuss ideas, we get passionate about things TWI related and non-TWI related. We talk about movies, books, sports, doctrinal issues, current events, politics, jokes, etc. To focus only on the TWI discussions is a pretty narrow-minded view of all that the Cafe contains and offers.
Have some pie and hange out for a while; you just might learn something and make some friends. However, if you thought you were in a Christian Cafe, then you've gotten the wrong address. Try the next cafe down the street.
There is obviously at least a small number of people who feel "It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible. "
Now, we can sit back and say "well that is just not true", but it doesn't change the fact that there are people who very much feel it is true.
and there are those who feel "God gave me many things by TWI and/but TWI also gave me a lot of junk" who feel that expressing the Godly things they received from TWI is not accepted here at the cafe.
Again, we can sit back and say that isn't true, but ti doesn't change the fact that there are people who very much feel it is true.
At the same time, there are many who find descriptive terms like "negative, bitter, snide, demeaning" as disrespectful, hurtful, and also untrue.
Again, you can say those terms are true, but it doesn't change the fact that there are those who feel otherwise.
And so, we are polarized and the minority voice is usually (though certainly not always) the one that is silenced, or at least the one that gets the majority of the negative responses.
Then, Goey said:
"As far as saying things regarding God and the Bible, I do it often and have never been called down for it. My dieas have been challenged at times, but what's wrong with that? We can learn from others if we don't take the challenging of our ideas as a personal "attack". "
Which, in my opinion, is very true and ultimately the heart of the matter. I think we can all discuss almost any topic AND disagree respectfully, if we pay attention to the words we chose to use.
THAT, is what I think the "throwing stones" stuff was really about. It wasn't about promoting the positives of TWI, it wasn't about foregoing discussions, debates or disagreements about TWI, the Bible, or anything else. It was about paying attention to the words we chose to use.
We're never going to get it perfect. Most of is will at least occassional chose a word or phrase that is offensive to someone. But, if we can at least TRY to be more consious of what we are saying and how it may be recieved/perceived - it might help make this place more welcoming to some.
Likewise, I found Goey's response to the use of terms he disagreed with to be very appropriate. He expressed his point of view and asked some thought provoking questions without "lobbing any stones" back.
The crux of the matter is that if you come to GSC with preconceived notions of what GSC is or should be you are sure to be disappointed. But then, IMO, preconceived notions is what caused much of the problems within TWI--no room for independent observation or thought. Far better to see what GSC has to offer without filtering it through the glasses of "All TWI is good" "All TWI is bad" etc etc. Learning not to filter everything with preconceived notions is one of the first lessons, IMO , that you need to learn after exiting TWI.
I always assumed that there was an ebb and flow of new people that came here, so GS needs to keep the objective in mind at all times "which is to expose TWI"
Hmmm. Reminds me of *giving equals receiving*, Karma,
what goes around, comes around -- that sort of thing.
"The crux of the matter is that if you come to GSC with preconceived notions of what GSC is or should be you are sure to be disappointed. But then, IMO, preconceived notions is what caused much of the problems within TWI--no room for independent observation or thought. Far better to see what GSC has to offer without filtering it through the glasses of "All TWI is good" "All TWI is bad" etc etc. Learning not to filter everything with preconceived notions is one of the first lessons, IMO , that you need to learn after exiting TWI."
The individual filters are there. They will always be there to some degree or another. We perceive things, process things, according to our experiences, knowledge, and understanding. There just isn't any getting around that.
The same goes for preconceived notions - we all have them. I have a "notion" regarding the Hollocaust, for example, based on the information I have received to date. Someone else may have different notion based on the information they have received to date. As we converse and exchange information, either one of us may change our notion, or not.
It isn't the preconceived notions that do us in - its either a) the unwillingness to consider other notions/information or b) personal attacks that shut us down and prevent us from having an exchange of information. THAT is what caused so many problems in TWI - we were taught NOT to consider any information from outside of TWI and we were personally attacked if we did.
It seems to me this is untrue. It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible. I wish this weren't the case but this is what I see in the threads and in the "radio broadcasts".
[Welcome!
It seems that way if you read certain threads on certain pages,
and skip other threads on other pages.
You picked the "About the Way" forum where we post-
imagine that!- about the way!
As another poster mentioned, this here partly functions as a
support group (like AA). Emotions can run strong here as a
result.
A regular problem is that a few people-not saying it's you-
arrive, decide that vpw NEVER harmed anyone, ALL the victims
who stepped forth are LIARS, and they personally are going
to set us straight by insulting us all and yelling at us.
Naturally, that gets some harsh responses.
Likewise, people who refuse to even CONSIDER that twi ever
taught them wrongly or ever lied to them often get harsh
responses for obvious reasons.
A major purpose for posting here is exposing the facts that
twi tries to hide. Sometimes, we get a poster dedicated to
hiding them as well. As one might expect, responses to that
run harsh as well.
So long as one is not IN one of those categories,
the only harsh responses you get (outside the Politics forum)
is usually from the people IN those categories.]
Perhaps some will recall the old story about the evil drunkard who brought bread to the starving woman and her son and told her, as she was giving thanks, "God didn't give you that bread, I did!", to which she replied: "The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!"
God gave me many things by TWI and/but TWI also gave me a lot of junk. My relationship with God started before TWI and has continued since. TWI is/was not the be-all/end-all of my life. I feel that God led me in and that God also led me out.
[My personal summary reads:
"I'm glad I got in,
and I'm glad I got out."
This surprises people who think ANY criticism of vpw or pfal or twi
is equal to a desire to take a bulldozer to their buildings.
Myself, I can separate discussions of doctrine from behaviour-
although the subjects generally ARE interrelated.
(Bad doctrine leads to bad practice,
and vpw's practice of loose sex led to bad doctrines permitting
it and promulgated among a precious few plus victims.)]
After twenty years (since I left) of bitterness, documented online in various forums ever since Trancenet, I'm tired of it. I know there is healing in venting and I don't want to just look the other way or ignore the pain that so many have gone through but there is also more to healing than venting. If anyone else is interested in discussing God’s calling and mercy and love in their life, I’d be blessed to hear from you.
[i strongly recommend looking around at Christians OUTSIDE
the ex-twi community.
Yes, Virginia, there ARE other Christians out there!
And some of them really know their stuff!
I also recommend skipping "literal translations according to usage"
(or "this is what the verse is SUPPOSED to say, so memorize it"),
and maybe trying a New American Standard Bible for a while.
Without notes all over it.
It can stimulate new thinking and new discussions.]
It is the preconceived notions that produce the filters, notions such as everything outside of TWI is bad, Everything in TWI is bad, anyone who disagrees is bad, anyone who holds there position is bad. Got to get those notions gone. And yes , it is possible to look at the world and lay those notions aside.
Lol...well if you are interested in talking about God’s calling and mercy and love in our lives.....a forum for discussing the actions of a destructive cult and the impact it’s vicious leaders had on our lives is hardly the place to expect meaningful dialog ...... silly :)
Funny… (And snide and demeaning, btw) I see it as just the opposite. People who come here seeking to discuss “the actions of a destructive cult and the impact its vicious leaders had on (their) lives” are, at least most of them, seeking what? Well, if you’re injured what do you seek out? If it were myself, I think I’d be looking for help and healing and, to me, it’s axiomatic that I’d be looking to God.
Secondly, for most it was because they were trying with all their might to be true to what they believed was “God’s calling and mercy and love in (their) lives” that they were vulnerable to these evil cult leaders. Don’t you think maybe God has a vested concern in their suffering and would come to meet them where they are? Well, He can work through me toward that end any time and to any extent He wants and if He sends me here, this is where I’ll be.
Other Exway people that have moved on in life in other directions and generally hold a (as you say) pro TWI view do not frequent this cafe. Many have read here and figured what is the point? The message sent is pretty clear. They are not going to change anyone's opinion even if they wanted to which I doubt they do. What is to be gained is a lot of typing and grief.... Who needs that? Which is why this will never be a balanced board or level field. Not the end of the world either..... just as long as you don't pretend it is something it is not.
You're point is well made and taken... however... doesn't this represent a huge, ongoing victory for TWI and the forces that drive it? Think about it. :unsure:
Funny… (And snide and demeaning, btw) I see it as just the opposite. People who come here seeking to discuss "the actions of a destructive cult and the impact its vicious leaders had on (their) lives" are, at least most of them, seeking what? Well, if you're injured what do you seek out? If it were myself, I think I'd be looking for help and healing and, to me, it's axiomatic that I'd be looking to God.
You seem to think that most folks that come here are somehow injured and still reeling in pain. That may be true of a newcommer just out of TWI or possibly a few others, but probably not of most of the regulars here, who for the most part have fairly well recovered from their wounds -- meaning they have moved beyond the hurts and live relatively functinal and rewarding lives.
Because folks come here to discuss the negatives of TWI, does not mean they they are necessarily seeking anything other than the freedom to openly discuss things that TWI and a few others want swept under there rug or kept in the lock box. The open discussion does not necessarily mean folks are still hurting, (though some may be) nor does it necessarily mean they are bitter as it is sometimes suggested by new folks. To some of these passers by, speaking openly about the bad stuff in TWI is somewhow seen as "bitterness" or "thinking evil".
Looking to God for help and healing is a great thing. I recommend it. However, it is not likely that all those who experienced evil and abuse at the hands of those they beleived to be ministers of God, would look to God for help and healing.
What happened to some folks in TWI shook the very foundation of thier faith in God and in "the Word". In TWI, God was "The Word". ("The Word" being what either VPW, LCM or Rosalie said it was) -- Later the ministry itself was "the Word" and in effect God. To serve God, you served the ministry (TWI). When that very ministy or its leaders failed them, abused them, or cast them aside, to some it was just as if God did it.
So to suggest that these people trust "God" for help and healing might be a bit naive. Not everyone here here believes in God. Many that do, no longer believe in God the way TWI taught or the way that you or I might believe.
What do we do with these folks (assuming they are seeking something)? Force God upon them? Quote scriptures to them? Castigate them for being bitter? -- I don't think so.
Secondly, for most it was because they were trying with all their might to be true to what they believed was "God's calling and mercy and love in (their) lives" that they were vulnerable to these evil cult leaders. Don't you think maybe God has a vested concern in their suffering and would come to meet them where they are? Well, He can work through me toward that end any time and to any extent He wants and if He sends me here, this is where I'll be.
That is a noble cause, but like God, you also must be willing to "meet them where they are." And they may not be where you think.
The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me
ok been thinking on this one. sounds really quite bizarre after all
i remember when geer's guilt tape came out how the way corps of america had murdered the way ministry or something along those lines
i started to feel SO GUILTY and someone in the meeting (dear ralph graham and/or joe fair) said something like "ex what is wrong with you? the guy is insane. you haven't done anything wrong" and a nice little lightbulb went off in my head
that's kinda how i feel about that devil delivering something to me from god
Aww free to love, I am sorry that you saw my post as snide and demeaning....there was a valid point I was trying to make in a humerous way....oh well..I guess we read what we want to into people and their posts.
Does the fact that we were *trying with all of our might to be true to God`s calling and love and mercy for our lives* in any way mitigate the pain inflicted or the suffering endured as a result of our betrayal?
I think that makes twi`s leaders actions even MORE reprehensible...No?
In sorting it all out....figuring out where God was and how this could happen is vital for some of us in being able to re establish a trust in him.
I have no doubt that God might have led you here, nor do I discount your ability to be able to minister on his behalf...however...YOUR calling is not mine, nor is your experience or insight mine either.....please give my pov respect and I will endeavor to give you the same courtesy. :)
It's old waybrain that renders the following two sentences as mutually exclusive.
These are my memories of TWI, most of which are bad, very bad
My life is full of hope and promise and God's love.
Until you can accept that a person can be living #2 in the now and still discuss #1 in the now without losing any of what #2 has to offer, you can never really say, IMO, you are free of "waybrain"
...so GS needs to keep the objective in mind at all times "which is to expose TWI". I don't know how you keep that balance when there are new people that come here and want and need to release about their experiences.
Yes, I can see what you mean, and I agree that exposing TWI is paramount. Some of us were hurt way worse than others.
When I first went to Waydale, I couldn't believe how nasty some of the posters were being to each other. I even said so on a thread. But as time went by, and I stuck around, I saw that it really was a liberating thing for people to be able to discuss things openly and honestly.
I saw the same on Trancenet, Waydale, CES… and here, just like you. The need for healing is great. I’ve also seen a name or two pop up here that I’ve seen along the way.
I was still looking at things with my "Way love group think-colored glasses" on. I thought the believers who had left would or should be like all loving etc. like it was supposed to be in the Way. But that is where I was wrong, as GS is not another offshoot of the Way, it is also not just a Christian community. Never was meant to be from what I can tell.
Now, that doesn't negate the fact that people generally on a forum are respectful of each other. So if someone is just being disrespectful or hard to get along with, I just ignore what they post. There are too many good and decent people here to converse with and debate with that don't take it to a personal level. And a lot of the folks here are "over it" but they come here to help others who are just coming out of the experience.
I kinda look at GS like a support group. I don't know if I can explain it, you just gotta stick around and be open to new ideas and new ways of thinking. Some of us spent our entire adult life in TWI and are just really starting to live in the world that TWI made us so fearful of. Just some thoughts.
Good thoughts, I’d say. Thank you. It seems I have more to learn…
Some people thought they were following God's Calling, but it led to nothing like mercy or peace or grace.
Well said… Tell me do you think God had anything to do with it? Ya know, that was part of the waybrain… Remember how they attacked the ‘religions’? They told us if they had any wrong doctrine then God was not to be found there... because they were ‘out to lunch’. I’m not pro-Way in any sense… I’m just pro-God and, as far as I’m concerned, I don't see how He can be left out of all this.
So what do you think? Was God there at all or absolutely not at all? Do you think he cares? I, myself wonder how He feels about all of this… what He thinks… what He would say…
I think those are great questions, I wonder those things as well.
Sometimes I think yes, God was there and god led me. Other times I think it is all in my head. What I do know is that despite the bad, I also experienced a lot of good in TWI. I grew up, I made some wonderful friends, and I do have some good memories.
There was plenty of bad too - but even from that I learned and I would not be who I am today if it were not for all of those experiences, good and bad. So, yeah, most days, I think He was there too - as He is everywhere with us.
You're point is well made and taken... however... doesn't this represent a huge, ongoing victory for TWI and the forces that drive it? Think about it. :unsure:
I'm not exactly following you as to why you think that people leaving The Way and moving on in life in different directions is a victory for The Way. Could you explain a little more.
Well said… Tell me do you think God had anything to do with it? Ya know, that was part of the waybrain… Remember how they attacked the ‘religions’? They told us if they had any wrong doctrine then God was not to be found there... because they were ‘out to lunch’. I’m not pro-Way in any sense… I’m just pro-God and, as far as I’m concerned, I don't see how He can be left out of all this.
So what do you think? Was God there at all or absolutely not at all? Do you think he cares? I, myself wonder how He feels about all of this… what He thinks… what He would say…
God is love. He cares and wants people to seek Him. All of what God is...exactly what God thinks... I don't think any person knows, except maybe Jesus Christ.
With what we have to go by, the Bible, there has been talk that even that has been tampered with.
From what I see, God looks on the heart. If a person is involved in a group that isn't the best, God still looks on the heart. The leaders that knowingly 'lead God's own' astray... God doesn't like that
I'm sure there are people still in TWI that love God and are doing their best. Just as there are those in the thousands of 'other' churches and religions in existence today.
The sad part about 'groups' that turn 'sour' is, they all probably had the chance to change, but pride and ego got in the way, and they stayed the same, or became progressively worse.
TWI doesn't give a 'voice' to very many. If the one-body were really working together, things probably would have turned out much better! :)
Well said… Tell me do you think God had anything to do with it? Ya know, that was part of the waybrain… Remember how they attacked the 'religions'? They told us if they had any wrong doctrine then God was not to be found there... because they were 'out to lunch'. I'm not pro-Way in any sense… I'm just pro-God and, as far as I'm concerned, I don't see how He can be left out of all this.
So what do you think? Was God there at all or absolutely not at all? Do you think he cares? I, myself wonder how He feels about all of this… what He thinks… what He would say…
Was He there? I saw no evidence He was(I am speaking about our last years In, during the nineties.) We didn't leave TWI all full of righteous thunder, we left in tears and broken hearts, not understanding why we couldn't 'do the Word.'
Everything we had loved about the Way--the fellowships, friendships, the belief that we Knew the Truth and could help people, that we were God's Best, soured during those last 3 or 4 years. When we left we had no friends, of course. We left during the M&A daze. The people we did know who had also left in the same time frame were often more damaged than we were--there was no healing fellowship, everyone was busy mopping up their own messes.
Eventually(a few years) I came to the conclusion that I was in the wrong place, that whatever it took to 'connect' with the Christian God was not there for me. I am one of the (few)non Christians who post on Greasespot. I'm now more of the pagan/Wiccan persuasion.
As to what God thiinks, I couldn't tell you. 'God loves you' and 'You're going to hell(or are possesed) seem to be the messages I hear in Christian circles. Not that I frequent them.
Well said… Tell me do you think God had anything to do with it? Ya know, that was part of the waybrain… Remember how they attacked the 'religions'? They told us if they had any wrong doctrine then God was not to be found there... because they were 'out to lunch'. I'm not pro-Way in any sense… I'm just pro-God and, as far as I'm concerned, I don't see how He can be left out of all this.
Sure, God had a hand in it. But not because TWI was the true household, or because they rightly divided the word better than the rest, or because VPW talked to God and saw a snowstorm in September. From my prospective if God had not had a hand in it, the damage could have been much much worse than it was. And even in spite of TWI's harshness, bullying leaders, errant doctrines, and corportate policies that were roadblocks to excellence -- through God's grace some good came about.
So what do you think? Was God there at all or absolutely not at all? Do you think he cares? I, myself wonder how He feels about all of this… what He thinks… what He would say…
I can't imagine God being completely absent from anywhere. He was there as much as individuals allowed Him to be there. However, when people put the comandments of men,(well meaning or not), above God and Christ (the head of the church) then God could only do so much.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
8
37
19
8
Popular Days
May 13
15
Jun 7
13
May 16
13
May 12
11
Top Posters In This Topic
Belle 8 posts
free2love 37 posts
templelady 19 posts
dmiller 8 posts
Popular Days
May 13 2006
15 posts
Jun 7 2006
13 posts
May 16 2006
13 posts
May 12 2006
11 posts
Belle
Free2Love, welcome and may I suggest that you read the two threads at the top of the page:
What is The Way?
and
Welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe
I'd also like to point out the Mission Statement from the About Us Section on the Home Page.
Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.
We want people to be able to make informed decisions regarding their past, present, and future affiliations with The Way International (TWI). Whether you are standing with TWI, thinking about leaving, trying to help someone else get out, or looking for support from others who have left, we believe the information here is highly relevant and well worth considering.
Sorry, Hon, but if you're looking for a Christian Forum, you're in the wrong place. If you're looking for a group of folks who are going to "gloss over" and ignore the rapes, suicides, lawsuits, destruction of lives, lies, plagarism and doctrinal errors that TWI is responsible for, then you're in the wrong place.
We're not all Christians here. We're not all the same Christian religion here. We discuss ideas, we get passionate about things TWI related and non-TWI related. We talk about movies, books, sports, doctrinal issues, current events, politics, jokes, etc. To focus only on the TWI discussions is a pretty narrow-minded view of all that the Cafe contains and offers.
Have some pie and hange out for a while; you just might learn something and make some friends. However, if you thought you were in a Christian Cafe, then you've gotten the wrong address.
Try the next cafe down the street.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
The crux of the matter - polarized?
There is obviously at least a small number of people who feel "It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible. "
Now, we can sit back and say "well that is just not true", but it doesn't change the fact that there are people who very much feel it is true.
and there are those who feel "God gave me many things by TWI and/but TWI also gave me a lot of junk" who feel that expressing the Godly things they received from TWI is not accepted here at the cafe.
Again, we can sit back and say that isn't true, but ti doesn't change the fact that there are people who very much feel it is true.
At the same time, there are many who find descriptive terms like "negative, bitter, snide, demeaning" as disrespectful, hurtful, and also untrue.
Again, you can say those terms are true, but it doesn't change the fact that there are those who feel otherwise.
And so, we are polarized and the minority voice is usually (though certainly not always) the one that is silenced, or at least the one that gets the majority of the negative responses.
Then, Goey said:
"As far as saying things regarding God and the Bible, I do it often and have never been called down for it. My dieas have been challenged at times, but what's wrong with that? We can learn from others if we don't take the challenging of our ideas as a personal "attack". "
Which, in my opinion, is very true and ultimately the heart of the matter. I think we can all discuss almost any topic AND disagree respectfully, if we pay attention to the words we chose to use.
THAT, is what I think the "throwing stones" stuff was really about. It wasn't about promoting the positives of TWI, it wasn't about foregoing discussions, debates or disagreements about TWI, the Bible, or anything else. It was about paying attention to the words we chose to use.
We're never going to get it perfect. Most of is will at least occassional chose a word or phrase that is offensive to someone. But, if we can at least TRY to be more consious of what we are saying and how it may be recieved/perceived - it might help make this place more welcoming to some.
Likewise, I found Goey's response to the use of terms he disagreed with to be very appropriate. He expressed his point of view and asked some thought provoking questions without "lobbing any stones" back.
Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
The crux of the matter is that if you come to GSC with preconceived notions of what GSC is or should be you are sure to be disappointed. But then, IMO, preconceived notions is what caused much of the problems within TWI--no room for independent observation or thought. Far better to see what GSC has to offer without filtering it through the glasses of "All TWI is good" "All TWI is bad" etc etc. Learning not to filter everything with preconceived notions is one of the first lessons, IMO , that you need to learn after exiting TWI.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Right you are, runner of the rum.
...and I would defer to Belle's last post, I think she said it quite well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Hmmm. Reminds me of *giving equals receiving*, Karma,
what goes around, comes around -- that sort of thing.
As twi has sown -- so shall they reap.
(I don't feel sorry for them at all).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
"The crux of the matter is that if you come to GSC with preconceived notions of what GSC is or should be you are sure to be disappointed. But then, IMO, preconceived notions is what caused much of the problems within TWI--no room for independent observation or thought. Far better to see what GSC has to offer without filtering it through the glasses of "All TWI is good" "All TWI is bad" etc etc. Learning not to filter everything with preconceived notions is one of the first lessons, IMO , that you need to learn after exiting TWI."
The individual filters are there. They will always be there to some degree or another. We perceive things, process things, according to our experiences, knowledge, and understanding. There just isn't any getting around that.
The same goes for preconceived notions - we all have them. I have a "notion" regarding the Hollocaust, for example, based on the information I have received to date. Someone else may have different notion based on the information they have received to date. As we converse and exchange information, either one of us may change our notion, or not.
It isn't the preconceived notions that do us in - its either a) the unwillingness to consider other notions/information or b) personal attacks that shut us down and prevent us from having an exchange of information. THAT is what caused so many problems in TWI - we were taught NOT to consider any information from outside of TWI and we were personally attacked if we did.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[Welcome!
It seems that way if you read certain threads on certain pages,
and skip other threads on other pages.
You picked the "About the Way" forum where we post-
imagine that!- about the way!
As another poster mentioned, this here partly functions as a
support group (like AA). Emotions can run strong here as a
result.
A regular problem is that a few people-not saying it's you-
arrive, decide that vpw NEVER harmed anyone, ALL the victims
who stepped forth are LIARS, and they personally are going
to set us straight by insulting us all and yelling at us.
Naturally, that gets some harsh responses.
Likewise, people who refuse to even CONSIDER that twi ever
taught them wrongly or ever lied to them often get harsh
responses for obvious reasons.
A major purpose for posting here is exposing the facts that
twi tries to hide. Sometimes, we get a poster dedicated to
hiding them as well. As one might expect, responses to that
run harsh as well.
So long as one is not IN one of those categories,
the only harsh responses you get (outside the Politics forum)
is usually from the people IN those categories.]
[My personal summary reads:
"I'm glad I got in,
and I'm glad I got out."
This surprises people who think ANY criticism of vpw or pfal or twi
is equal to a desire to take a bulldozer to their buildings.
Myself, I can separate discussions of doctrine from behaviour-
although the subjects generally ARE interrelated.
(Bad doctrine leads to bad practice,
and vpw's practice of loose sex led to bad doctrines permitting
it and promulgated among a precious few plus victims.)]
[i strongly recommend looking around at Christians OUTSIDE
the ex-twi community.
Yes, Virginia, there ARE other Christians out there!
And some of them really know their stuff!
I also recommend skipping "literal translations according to usage"
(or "this is what the verse is SUPPOSED to say, so memorize it"),
and maybe trying a New American Standard Bible for a while.
Without notes all over it.
It can stimulate new thinking and new discussions.]
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
It is the preconceived notions that produce the filters, notions such as everything outside of TWI is bad, Everything in TWI is bad, anyone who disagrees is bad, anyone who holds there position is bad. Got to get those notions gone. And yes , it is possible to look at the world and lay those notions aside.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
free2love
Funny… (And snide and demeaning, btw) I see it as just the opposite. People who come here seeking to discuss “the actions of a destructive cult and the impact its vicious leaders had on (their) lives” are, at least most of them, seeking what? Well, if you’re injured what do you seek out? If it were myself, I think I’d be looking for help and healing and, to me, it’s axiomatic that I’d be looking to God.
Secondly, for most it was because they were trying with all their might to be true to what they believed was “God’s calling and mercy and love in (their) lives” that they were vulnerable to these evil cult leaders. Don’t you think maybe God has a vested concern in their suffering and would come to meet them where they are? Well, He can work through me toward that end any time and to any extent He wants and if He sends me here, this is where I’ll be.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
free2love
You're point is well made and taken... however... doesn't this represent a huge, ongoing victory for TWI and the forces that drive it? Think about it. :unsure:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
free2love:
If you dislike so much about what goes on here, why are you here?
If you don't want to engage in the types of discussions that are common here...DON'T!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
You seem to think that most folks that come here are somehow injured and still reeling in pain. That may be true of a newcommer just out of TWI or possibly a few others, but probably not of most of the regulars here, who for the most part have fairly well recovered from their wounds -- meaning they have moved beyond the hurts and live relatively functinal and rewarding lives.
Because folks come here to discuss the negatives of TWI, does not mean they they are necessarily seeking anything other than the freedom to openly discuss things that TWI and a few others want swept under there rug or kept in the lock box. The open discussion does not necessarily mean folks are still hurting, (though some may be) nor does it necessarily mean they are bitter as it is sometimes suggested by new folks. To some of these passers by, speaking openly about the bad stuff in TWI is somewhow seen as "bitterness" or "thinking evil".
Looking to God for help and healing is a great thing. I recommend it. However, it is not likely that all those who experienced evil and abuse at the hands of those they beleived to be ministers of God, would look to God for help and healing.
What happened to some folks in TWI shook the very foundation of thier faith in God and in "the Word". In TWI, God was "The Word". ("The Word" being what either VPW, LCM or Rosalie said it was) -- Later the ministry itself was "the Word" and in effect God. To serve God, you served the ministry (TWI). When that very ministy or its leaders failed them, abused them, or cast them aside, to some it was just as if God did it.
So to suggest that these people trust "God" for help and healing might be a bit naive. Not everyone here here believes in God. Many that do, no longer believe in God the way TWI taught or the way that you or I might believe.
What do we do with these folks (assuming they are seeking something)? Force God upon them? Quote scriptures to them? Castigate them for being bitter? -- I don't think so.
That is a noble cause, but like God, you also must be willing to "meet them where they are." And they may not be where you think.
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i remember when geer's guilt tape came out how the way corps of america had murdered the way ministry or something along those lines
i started to feel SO GUILTY and someone in the meeting (dear ralph graham and/or joe fair) said something like "ex what is wrong with you? the guy is insane. you haven't done anything wrong" and a nice little lightbulb went off in my head
that's kinda how i feel about that devil delivering something to me from god
hope that makes sense
Edited by excathedraLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Aww free to love, I am sorry that you saw my post as snide and demeaning....there was a valid point I was trying to make in a humerous way....oh well..I guess we read what we want to into people and their posts.
Does the fact that we were *trying with all of our might to be true to God`s calling and love and mercy for our lives* in any way mitigate the pain inflicted or the suffering endured as a result of our betrayal?
I think that makes twi`s leaders actions even MORE reprehensible...No?
In sorting it all out....figuring out where God was and how this could happen is vital for some of us in being able to re establish a trust in him.
I have no doubt that God might have led you here, nor do I discount your ability to be able to minister on his behalf...however...YOUR calling is not mine, nor is your experience or insight mine either.....please give my pov respect and I will endeavor to give you the same courtesy. :)
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
it's true, rascal wouldn't even know what "demeaning" i mean the word "mean" is in there and she is the sweetest person here
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
It's old waybrain that renders the following two sentences as mutually exclusive.
Until you can accept that a person can be living #2 in the now and still discuss #1 in the now without losing any of what #2 has to offer, you can never really say, IMO, you are free of "waybrain"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
free2love
Link to comment
Share on other sites
free2love
Well said… Tell me do you think God had anything to do with it? Ya know, that was part of the waybrain… Remember how they attacked the ‘religions’? They told us if they had any wrong doctrine then God was not to be found there... because they were ‘out to lunch’. I’m not pro-Way in any sense… I’m just pro-God and, as far as I’m concerned, I don't see how He can be left out of all this.
So what do you think? Was God there at all or absolutely not at all? Do you think he cares? I, myself wonder how He feels about all of this… what He thinks… what He would say…
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I think those are great questions, I wonder those things as well.
Sometimes I think yes, God was there and god led me. Other times I think it is all in my head. What I do know is that despite the bad, I also experienced a lot of good in TWI. I grew up, I made some wonderful friends, and I do have some good memories.
There was plenty of bad too - but even from that I learned and I would not be who I am today if it were not for all of those experiences, good and bad. So, yeah, most days, I think He was there too - as He is everywhere with us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
I'm not exactly following you as to why you think that people leaving The Way and moving on in life in different directions is a victory for The Way. Could you explain a little more.
Edited by WhiteDoveLink to comment
Share on other sites
SafariVista
God is love. He cares and wants people to seek Him. All of what God is...exactly what God thinks... I don't think any person knows, except maybe Jesus Christ.
With what we have to go by, the Bible, there has been talk that even that has been tampered with.
From what I see, God looks on the heart. If a person is involved in a group that isn't the best, God still looks on the heart. The leaders that knowingly 'lead God's own' astray... God doesn't like that
I'm sure there are people still in TWI that love God and are doing their best. Just as there are those in the thousands of 'other' churches and religions in existence today.
The sad part about 'groups' that turn 'sour' is, they all probably had the chance to change, but pride and ego got in the way, and they stayed the same, or became progressively worse.
TWI doesn't give a 'voice' to very many. If the one-body were really working together, things probably would have turned out much better! :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Was He there? I saw no evidence He was(I am speaking about our last years In, during the nineties.) We didn't leave TWI all full of righteous thunder, we left in tears and broken hearts, not understanding why we couldn't 'do the Word.'
Everything we had loved about the Way--the fellowships, friendships, the belief that we Knew the Truth and could help people, that we were God's Best, soured during those last 3 or 4 years. When we left we had no friends, of course. We left during the M&A daze. The people we did know who had also left in the same time frame were often more damaged than we were--there was no healing fellowship, everyone was busy mopping up their own messes.
Eventually(a few years) I came to the conclusion that I was in the wrong place, that whatever it took to 'connect' with the Christian God was not there for me. I am one of the (few)non Christians who post on Greasespot. I'm now more of the pagan/Wiccan persuasion.
As to what God thiinks, I couldn't tell you. 'God loves you' and 'You're going to hell(or are possesed) seem to be the messages I hear in Christian circles. Not that I frequent them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Sure, God had a hand in it. But not because TWI was the true household, or because they rightly divided the word better than the rest, or because VPW talked to God and saw a snowstorm in September. From my prospective if God had not had a hand in it, the damage could have been much much worse than it was. And even in spite of TWI's harshness, bullying leaders, errant doctrines, and corportate policies that were roadblocks to excellence -- through God's grace some good came about.
I can't imagine God being completely absent from anywhere. He was there as much as individuals allowed Him to be there. However, when people put the comandments of men,(well meaning or not), above God and Christ (the head of the church) then God could only do so much.
God dwells within the hearts of people, not within 501© Corporations.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.