I was addressing your first post in this thread, and that post only. I hadn't even read all of the other posts in this thread. And in your first post, you did say:
" you want me to tiptoe around you and your pro-TWI stance so as not to hurt your "itty Bitty Feelers" forgidaboutdit!!!"
and
"Post as you will, but when you face the rebuttals that will surely come, do not think that I for one will be impressed by whimpering cries of "foul", by those who display a complete lack of regard for my feelings or my experiences. "
Which I found to be rather contradictory in that it APPEARED as if you were telling people you would not watch your words out of concern for someone else's feelings and yet at the same time you seemed to be accusing and/or angry about others for having a total lack of regard for your feelings.
So, I did not in fact turn what you quoted around at all (and how could I when I had not even read it?), nor was I casting aspersions on anyone's character, and it is now you in who are turning around what was said.
We are all rather contradictory at times, it is part of being human. But I think sometimes it is a good thing when we recognize our own contradictions, it allows us to be more forgiving when we see it in others.
I do not understand the anger, Mo, nor do I feel I deserve it. But if it makes you feel better, go ahead.
I was simply expressing my point of view - though I guess as you said - you are not interested in tiptoeing around the feelings of other people. So, does this now constitute me crying foul? It shouldn't because I am neither hurt nor angry, but am simply expressing my pov.
"When you post; knowing that your words are hurtful, knowingly push buttons, knowingly casting aspersions on the character of other posters; then run crying to the moderators and post virulent character assassinations that leave your responders close to tears--that is the time , in my book--that you should be told if you don't like the heat in the kitchen you shouldn't have started the fire in the first place. "
I agree with you on this statement, though I think in comparison to the number of people who post here, those who knowingly cast aspersions on someone else's character (at least on a regular and intentional basis) are relatively few.
"And for those of you, you know who you are, who figure you'll garner points by being smarmy "peacemakers" who twist and turn to whichever way seems to garner the most posts, stabbing friends in the back just to appear to be better tha you really are"
And likewise here, I think those who are simply trying to garner points are few. Though, again, the contradictory nature of being human may make it appear that this occurs more frequently. Sometimes people simply change their minds after getting more information or considering other perspectives - that is one of the great things about websites like this.
"Everyone here knows what buttons to push, everyone here knows what the mores of our society are."
And here I would only add that while some buttons are obvious, others are not. We may have certain buttons in common, but then there are those that are unique to the individual (for example the phrase "damaged goods" being one of mine). Likewise, there are certain "mores of our society" that are generally accepted and known, and others that are more regional and may not be known by someone living in a different region.
nor was I casting aspersions on anyone's character, and it is now you in who are turning around what was said.
earlier you talk about not being concerned about hurting someone else's feelings
YOU deliberately twist my words "you are not interested in tiptoeing around the feelings of other people" into meaning that I seek to deliberately hurt other peoples feelings as opposed to the actual meaning namely, that I will not retreat from my point of view in an effort to spare the feelings of persons who have no regard for my feelings.
I do not understand the anger, Mo, nor do I feel I deserve it. But if it makes you feel better, go ahead.
I was simply expressing my point of view - though I guess as you said - you are not interested in tiptoeing around the feelings of other people. So, does this now constitute me crying foul? It shouldn't because I am neither hurt nor angry, but am simply expressing my pov.
You make the assumption there is anger
YOU make the assumption that I feel you deserve anger
YOU make the assumption That Somehow being angry with you (if the first assumption that was angry were in fact true) make me feel better
Maybe posting about a good experience is not meant to "start a fire in the kitchen" as you say. Perhaps they are sharing only their truthful experience. Perhaps you see that as Pro TWI because of your mindset, when it really is just a truthful account of ones experience.
It's not the posting of anyone's experiences that is at issue it is the posting of experiences and then continuing on with statements that those who didn't have similar experiences are, liars,. making it up, exaggerating, bitter, vindictive, hateful etc etc etc that is the problem. One is a point of view and the other an attack
Yes, I made the assumption you were angry, just as you have made the assumption that I DELIBERATELY twisted your words, as opposed to simply telling you how I understood them - there is a difference.
I agree with templelady...I come here to speak my mind rather than to socialize...although I have nothing against socializing...
...My perception of GSC is that it's a place to take part in discussions that, at times, become heated and antagonistic...and that's FINE with me. If we were all likeminded, we would probably still be wearing nametags...and I threw mine in the fire on uncle Harry day a long time ago.
It's not that I am not mindful of other people's feelings, but this is, at times, a volitile website...like my old football coach once said... if you aren't prepared to get hit once in awhile, then don't put on the pads.
It's not that I am not mindful of other people's feelings, but this is, at times, a volitile website...like my old football coach once said... if you aren't prepared to get hit once in awhile, then don't put on the pads.
DELIBERATELY twisted your words, as opposed to simply telling you how I understood them
Abigail, you can rationalize til the cows come home but there is no way you get "not being concerned about hurting someone else's feelings" out of "not interested in tiptoeing" with out some serious word twisting. I am through conversing with you on this subject, it is clear from what you have posted here that you will never agree to my point of view nor will you ever accept it as valid. This is your right, but a fruitless position for any meaningful discussions
I'm late to this thread. I haven't had much time in the last couple weeks to spend time here. (My responses are in bold.)
TempleLady said:
GSC was not designed to be politically correct, It was designed to let TWIers of what ever stage in their lives say what they think.
I'm asking questions in an attempt to get some clarification here, because I'm not sure who your complaints of political correctness, etc., are directed at, Mo, or exactly what you mean.
Who is saying GSC needs to be politically correct?
I have noticed a trend this last few weeks to try and make those of us who have legitimate complaints about our treatment at the hands of TWI, or the treatment of friends and loved ones, "tone down" our comments and opinions.
I could be wrong, but I think you must be referring to "Throwing Stones" and similar threads. Am I correct? I don't see what you're saying in those threads at all. No one has suggested anyone should tone down his/her opinions. What I have seen is a call to lighten up on the attacks aimed at the people who hold opinions we don't agree with. I can't recall ever seeing you launch what I'd call an attack on another poster, so I don't know why you seem to be ticked off about that. (I know you said you weren't angry, but you sure sound angry in this and later posts.)
Balderdash, If you want to disagree with my viewpoint, Great. If you want to post your own ,vastly different experiences , great. If you want me to tiptoe around you and your pro-TWI stance so as not to hurt your "itty Bitty Feelers" forgidaboutdit!!!
Again, who asked you to do that?
I did all the tiptoeing around TWI, from the years 1982-1989 that I ever intend to do. You who expect this to be an afternoon tea party full of whispered gentility --YOU HAVE COME TO THE WRONG PLACE.
Mo, I can speak only for me, but I certainly don't expact/want GSC to be a phony baloney place where everyone pretends to be nice just for the sake of keeping the peace. Based on what I've read here, I don't think anyone else does, either. How boring would that be?
What I would like to see, if I had things my way, would be people disagreeing without calling each other names and accusing each other of mental illness and such. Again, I haven't seen you doing this, even when attacked by others, so I don't know what's got your dander up. Am I missing something?
The very nature of this forum and the nature of the posters thereon, means that there are many sides and many strongheld points. Post as you will, but when you face the rebuttals that will surely come, do not think that I for one will be impressed by whimpering cries of "foul", by those who display a complete lack of regard for my feelings or my experiences.
I'm not sure who is whimpering and crying foul. I'm not a moderator and I know nothing of what goes on behind the scenes, and I'll admit I haven't had time to read everything lately, but I haven't seen this happening. So I guess the short question is this: What, specifically, are you talking about?
Anybody who is appalled and disgusted by what happened to us in twi is labled as a big old meanie ...when one speaks of anger over mistreatment...called a whiner ...a perpetual victim...a back biter...repeatedly posters have been called liars when sharing gruesom details of abuse at the hands of twi members......I guess because it doesn`t jive with the rosey mind picture they want to maintain of twi`s importance or lack there of in the grand scheme of things.....
Shoot, I am considered one who comes here only to make people think like me...to be compared with someone who`s sole purpose at gs is to peddle rediculous dogma.....all of the afore mentioned viscious personal attacks by the ohhh so nice people crying foul and then simper *lets all just be a little nicer can`t we*??
In posting our thoughts, questions, the angst of searching for answeres to what happened to us all....what is truth...how and where was God when we were being led into the darkness and bondage? Can we ever trust him or anybody who speaks for him again??
In our disgust over the betrayal and theft ...we are percieved as throwing stones.
I'm not sure who is whimpering and crying foul. I'm not a moderator and I know nothing of what goes on behind the scenes, and I'll admit I haven't had time to read everything lately, but I haven't seen this happening. So I guess the short question is this: What, specifically, are you talking about?
There are in some cases specific instances that I am thinking about, however to avoid having this thread turn into a rehash of those instances I have deliberately left them out of the picture. It isn't any one thing or post in particular rather an amalgamation of posts and the attitudes therein.
Okay, then I'll take a different approach. I'll assume I'm one of the people who prompted this thread, since I've frequently (ever since Waydale) advocated for fighting fair, arguing opinions but not turning arguments into personal attacks, etc.
I've never said people don't have a right to express their anger and hurt over what happened to them. I've never said we all have to sit around holding hands. I've never said that the handful of people (and that's all there are) who think twi was 99% wonderful can't or shouldn't have their rosy opinions debated or questioned. Is that how you're interpreting the "Throwing Stones" thread? I'm sorry, but I don't see anyone there saying any of these things.
Linda, this is not directed at any one person, although there are some more IMO egregious offenders than others, It most surely is not directed at you specifically
GSC was not designed to be politically correct, It was designed to let TWIers of what ever stage in their lives say what they think.
It seems to me this is untrue. It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible. I wish this weren't the case but this is what I see in the threads and in the "radio broadcasts".
Perhaps some will recall the old story about the evil drunkard who brought bread to the starving woman and her son and told her, as she was giving thanks, "God didn't give you that bread, I did!", to which she replied: "The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!"
God gave me many things by TWI and/but TWI also gave me a lot of junk. My relationship with God started before TWI and has continued since. TWI is/was not the be-all/end-all of my life. I feel that God led me in and that God also led me out.
After twenty years (since I left) of bitterness, documented online in various forums ever since Trancenet, I'm tired of it. I know there is healing in venting and I don't want to just look the other way or ignore the pain that so many have gone through but there is also more to healing than venting. If anyone else is interested in discussing God’s calling and mercy and love in their life, I’d be blessed to hear from you.
Lol...well if you are interested in talking about God`s calling and mercy and love in our lives.....a forum for discussing the actions of a destructive cult and the impact it`s viscious leaders had on our lives is hardly the place to expect meaningfull dialog ...... silly :)
A quick look around the board will tell you that the majority of the posts are negative regarding way experiences the minority are the good that people experienced. I would expect this as such, due to the nature of the board Other Exway people that have moved on in life in other directions and generally hold a (as you say) pro TWI view do not frequent this cafe. Many have read here and figured what is the point? The message sent is pretty clear. They are not going to change anyone's opinion even if they wanted to which I doubt they do. What is to be gained is a lot of typing and grief.... Who needs that ? Which is why this will never be a balanced board or level field. Not the end of the world either..... just as long as you don't pretend it is something it is not.
Very interesting thoughts. I think alot of people on the "outside" do look in here and see alot of negativity and bitterness. I always assumed that there was an ebb and flow of new people that came here, so GS needs to keep the objective in mind at all times "which is to expose TWI". I don't know how you keep that balance when there are new people that come here and want and need to release about their experiences.
When I first went to Waydale, I couldn't believe how nasty some of the posters were being to each other. I even said so on a thread. But as time went by, and I stuck around, I saw that it really was a liberating thing for people to be able to discuss things openly and honestly. I was still looking at things with my "Way love group think-colored glasses" on. I thought the believers who had left would or should be like all loving etc. like it was supposed to be in the Way. But that is where I was wrong, as GS is not another offshoot of the Way, it is also not just a christian community. Never was meant to be from what I can tell.
Now that doesn't negate the fact that people generally on a forum are respectful of each other. So if someone is just being disrespectful or hard to get along with, I just ignore what they post. There are too many good and decent people here to converse with and debate with that don't take it to a personal level. And alot of the folks here are "over it" but they come here to help others who are just coming out of the experience.
I kinda look at GS like a support group. I don't know if I can explain it, you just gotta stick around and be open to new ideas and new ways of thinking. Some of us spent our entire adult life in TWI and are just really starting to live in the world that TWI made us so fearful of. Just some thoughts.
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Abigail
Mo,
I was addressing your first post in this thread, and that post only. I hadn't even read all of the other posts in this thread. And in your first post, you did say:
" you want me to tiptoe around you and your pro-TWI stance so as not to hurt your "itty Bitty Feelers" forgidaboutdit!!!"
and
"Post as you will, but when you face the rebuttals that will surely come, do not think that I for one will be impressed by whimpering cries of "foul", by those who display a complete lack of regard for my feelings or my experiences. "
Which I found to be rather contradictory in that it APPEARED as if you were telling people you would not watch your words out of concern for someone else's feelings and yet at the same time you seemed to be accusing and/or angry about others for having a total lack of regard for your feelings.
So, I did not in fact turn what you quoted around at all (and how could I when I had not even read it?), nor was I casting aspersions on anyone's character, and it is now you in who are turning around what was said.
We are all rather contradictory at times, it is part of being human. But I think sometimes it is a good thing when we recognize our own contradictions, it allows us to be more forgiving when we see it in others.
I do not understand the anger, Mo, nor do I feel I deserve it. But if it makes you feel better, go ahead.
I was simply expressing my point of view - though I guess as you said - you are not interested in tiptoeing around the feelings of other people. So, does this now constitute me crying foul? It shouldn't because I am neither hurt nor angry, but am simply expressing my pov.
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Abigail
FWIW
"When you post; knowing that your words are hurtful, knowingly push buttons, knowingly casting aspersions on the character of other posters; then run crying to the moderators and post virulent character assassinations that leave your responders close to tears--that is the time , in my book--that you should be told if you don't like the heat in the kitchen you shouldn't have started the fire in the first place. "
I agree with you on this statement, though I think in comparison to the number of people who post here, those who knowingly cast aspersions on someone else's character (at least on a regular and intentional basis) are relatively few.
"And for those of you, you know who you are, who figure you'll garner points by being smarmy "peacemakers" who twist and turn to whichever way seems to garner the most posts, stabbing friends in the back just to appear to be better tha you really are"
And likewise here, I think those who are simply trying to garner points are few. Though, again, the contradictory nature of being human may make it appear that this occurs more frequently. Sometimes people simply change their minds after getting more information or considering other perspectives - that is one of the great things about websites like this.
"Everyone here knows what buttons to push, everyone here knows what the mores of our society are."
And here I would only add that while some buttons are obvious, others are not. We may have certain buttons in common, but then there are those that are unique to the individual (for example the phrase "damaged goods" being one of mine). Likewise, there are certain "mores of our society" that are generally accepted and known, and others that are more regional and may not be known by someone living in a different region.
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templelady
YOU deliberately twist my words "you are not interested in tiptoeing around the feelings of other people" into meaning that I seek to deliberately hurt other peoples feelings as opposed to the actual meaning namely, that I will not retreat from my point of view in an effort to spare the feelings of persons who have no regard for my feelings.
You make the assumption there is anger
YOU make the assumption that I feel you deserve anger
YOU make the assumption That Somehow being angry with you (if the first assumption that was angry were in fact true) make me feel better
It's not the posting of anyone's experiences that is at issue it is the posting of experiences and then continuing on with statements that those who didn't have similar experiences are, liars,. making it up, exaggerating, bitter, vindictive, hateful etc etc etc that is the problem. One is a point of view and the other an attack
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Abigail
Yes, I made the assumption you were angry, just as you have made the assumption that I DELIBERATELY twisted your words, as opposed to simply telling you how I understood them - there is a difference.
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SafariVista
whew.... that was some difficult reading
um... don't scare the baby
j/k
argue away ;)
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GrouchoMarxJr
I agree with templelady...I come here to speak my mind rather than to socialize...although I have nothing against socializing...
...My perception of GSC is that it's a place to take part in discussions that, at times, become heated and antagonistic...and that's FINE with me. If we were all likeminded, we would probably still be wearing nametags...and I threw mine in the fire on uncle Harry day a long time ago.
It's not that I am not mindful of other people's feelings, but this is, at times, a volitile website...like my old football coach once said... if you aren't prepared to get hit once in awhile, then don't put on the pads.
Love and kisses...
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RumRunner
Jim Gibbons???
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templelady
Abigail, you can rationalize til the cows come home but there is no way you get "not being concerned about hurting someone else's feelings" out of "not interested in tiptoeing" with out some serious word twisting. I am through conversing with you on this subject, it is clear from what you have posted here that you will never agree to my point of view nor will you ever accept it as valid. This is your right, but a fruitless position for any meaningful discussions
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Sushi
**sorry - posted by Abigail, who switched computers*****
Peace, Mo.
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dmiller
Thomas Loy Bumgarner would be "Sleezy Chucklechunks". ;)
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Linda Z
I'm late to this thread. I haven't had much time in the last couple weeks to spend time here. (My responses are in bold.)
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rascal
I get you temple lady...and thanks.
Anybody who is appalled and disgusted by what happened to us in twi is labled as a big old meanie ...when one speaks of anger over mistreatment...called a whiner ...a perpetual victim...a back biter...repeatedly posters have been called liars when sharing gruesom details of abuse at the hands of twi members......I guess because it doesn`t jive with the rosey mind picture they want to maintain of twi`s importance or lack there of in the grand scheme of things.....
Shoot, I am considered one who comes here only to make people think like me...to be compared with someone who`s sole purpose at gs is to peddle rediculous dogma.....all of the afore mentioned viscious personal attacks by the ohhh so nice people crying foul and then simper *lets all just be a little nicer can`t we*??
In posting our thoughts, questions, the angst of searching for answeres to what happened to us all....what is truth...how and where was God when we were being led into the darkness and bondage? Can we ever trust him or anybody who speaks for him again??
In our disgust over the betrayal and theft ...we are percieved as throwing stones.
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templelady
There are in some cases specific instances that I am thinking about, however to avoid having this thread turn into a rehash of those instances I have deliberately left them out of the picture. It isn't any one thing or post in particular rather an amalgamation of posts and the attitudes therein.
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Linda Z
I understand not wanting to rehash it all, Mo.
Okay, then I'll take a different approach. I'll assume I'm one of the people who prompted this thread, since I've frequently (ever since Waydale) advocated for fighting fair, arguing opinions but not turning arguments into personal attacks, etc.
I've never said people don't have a right to express their anger and hurt over what happened to them. I've never said we all have to sit around holding hands. I've never said that the handful of people (and that's all there are) who think twi was 99% wonderful can't or shouldn't have their rosy opinions debated or questioned. Is that how you're interpreting the "Throwing Stones" thread? I'm sorry, but I don't see anyone there saying any of these things.
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rascal
...
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templelady
Linda, this is not directed at any one person, although there are some more IMO egregious offenders than others, It most surely is not directed at you specifically
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excathedra
i understand and understood the heart and intent of this thread right from the get-go. i have felt this way many times.
i often feel as though we must behave within a certain framework
i'm safe as long as i'm an abuse victim
but if i really speak my mind watch out (no i don't mean just when i'm drunk)
and certain people "seem" to want to argue and pick my few words apart
whatever
one half of me is very strong and outspoken and the other half is scared to death
for whatever the hell that is worth
and i do think we're all humans but i have this weird view that other should be smarter or at least reading my mind
ha !!!!!!
ps. "heart and intent" sounds a lot like craig and wayfers
for that i ask for forgiveness
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dmiller
(((Excie))) :) :)
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Seth R.
templelady,
Good post and point.
Seth
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free2love
It seems to me this is untrue. It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible. I wish this weren't the case but this is what I see in the threads and in the "radio broadcasts".
Perhaps some will recall the old story about the evil drunkard who brought bread to the starving woman and her son and told her, as she was giving thanks, "God didn't give you that bread, I did!", to which she replied: "The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!"
God gave me many things by TWI and/but TWI also gave me a lot of junk. My relationship with God started before TWI and has continued since. TWI is/was not the be-all/end-all of my life. I feel that God led me in and that God also led me out.
After twenty years (since I left) of bitterness, documented online in various forums ever since Trancenet, I'm tired of it. I know there is healing in venting and I don't want to just look the other way or ignore the pain that so many have gone through but there is also more to healing than venting. If anyone else is interested in discussing God’s calling and mercy and love in their life, I’d be blessed to hear from you.
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rascal
Lol...well if you are interested in talking about God`s calling and mercy and love in our lives.....a forum for discussing the actions of a destructive cult and the impact it`s viscious leaders had on our lives is hardly the place to expect meaningfull dialog ...... silly :)
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WhiteDove
Well look it's another Dove!!!
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outofdafog
Very interesting thoughts. I think alot of people on the "outside" do look in here and see alot of negativity and bitterness. I always assumed that there was an ebb and flow of new people that came here, so GS needs to keep the objective in mind at all times "which is to expose TWI". I don't know how you keep that balance when there are new people that come here and want and need to release about their experiences.
When I first went to Waydale, I couldn't believe how nasty some of the posters were being to each other. I even said so on a thread. But as time went by, and I stuck around, I saw that it really was a liberating thing for people to be able to discuss things openly and honestly. I was still looking at things with my "Way love group think-colored glasses" on. I thought the believers who had left would or should be like all loving etc. like it was supposed to be in the Way. But that is where I was wrong, as GS is not another offshoot of the Way, it is also not just a christian community. Never was meant to be from what I can tell.
Now that doesn't negate the fact that people generally on a forum are respectful of each other. So if someone is just being disrespectful or hard to get along with, I just ignore what they post. There are too many good and decent people here to converse with and debate with that don't take it to a personal level. And alot of the folks here are "over it" but they come here to help others who are just coming out of the experience.
I kinda look at GS like a support group. I don't know if I can explain it, you just gotta stick around and be open to new ideas and new ways of thinking. Some of us spent our entire adult life in TWI and are just really starting to live in the world that TWI made us so fearful of. Just some thoughts.
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Bramble
Some people thought they were following God's Calling, but it led to nothing like mercy or peace or grace.
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