I don't think they are breeding immaturity per say buut they are setting people up for quite a reality check. The young people mainly hear & believe only what they are taught by TWI people without considering any other points of view. There is certainly more "truth"& more to learn than what is in their teachings. So I think overall they are not giving much room to really grow & learn. That certainly can & does make it hard when trying to develop relationships (work, personal, etc). It also makes it hard to get along with others & impossible to think for yourself.
quote: Quick to write off anyone ‘outside their Walls of Zion’…in the REAL WORLD, this would be deemed ‘Immature and thoughtless'.
This is all relative. I grew up a liberal on a street full of fundamentalists. I never heard of anybody going to hell for skipping Sunday school until I heard it from the fundamentalist kids. My mom calmly said that's what they are taught to believe; you don't have to believe that. So by your definition, the "real world" is the majority. I was in this liberal "cult" and everybody else on my street were the "real world". Eventually I mixed with people who weren't fundamentalists and it was all moot.
I think you have to be flexible. Sure, you can't just expect people outside TWI to just listen to you and not give their input; you have to be discreet, wise. TWI may have discouraged this in later years, but it's not like you ever needed TWI to figure stuff like that out for you.
Your observation nailed this one on the head (unfortunately true)
Even when I was in, even when I had positions of leadership, I saw that totally, and was embarassed by it. The best way to describe it was making you child-like dependent on leadership, or "the system."
Craig said that parents shouldn't send their children to college more than 1 1/2 hours away. The Corps leadership took that standard, and made it a doctrine for parents who had opportunities to send their children away further. I remember people being confronted for even considering the opportunities, even if their kids did get scholarships.
One of the ways the high-up "fat cat" leaders made people dependent was by overteaching (and overreaching) the concept of getting "wise counsel"(WC). It was pretty much required for anything. For the Corps, they were required to get this WC for about any bigger decision - should we have another child, should I change jobs, should I accept contact from friends & family who left the ministry, should I let my sons join soccer, etc. It was sooooo awful!
The paid Way Corps were given money in their budget from twi to put in savings toward their next purchase of a car (probably not a new one). They were REQUIRED from twi to actually show how that monthly amount was put into that "replacement car" category. They did this until they found out it was illegal, and then the Trunk coordinator (B*ll G) wrote a letter "encouraging" the paid Corps to show their overseers that they did so. You can trust them with running meetings, but just not putting away $ for a car. I joke with you...not!
Yeah, I remember hearing about our Region coordinators call the Trunk for about every stupid decision they had in their lives for "WC." It made them dependent on others so called "insight." Then the worst happened....... :blink: .....then they required all their subordinates (Limb, Way Corps, believers in their Limb, Branch, etc.) to come to them on every stupid decision too. As a matter of fact, I remember hearing when my Limb coordinators were in a meeting, the Region coordinators reamed the LC's wives, because they didn't call the RC's wife for "wise counsel" on a regular basis. By the way, most of the other wives never NEEDED her help (no problems, solid marriages, been married longer w/better behaved kids, etc.). How dare they !!! So he set it up where on a schedule where those ladies were to call his wife to check in on life in general, where she would offer her "wise counsel" as a wife.
As stupid as it sounds (and it really was), my Limb coordinators never blamed those zealous Region coordinators. They felt that they were just trying to do right, by doing what others required of them, assuming that everything was right. Still, the examples I could cite could go on and on and on.......
Oh, and I forgot to mention, those who were in the 250 mile radius from New Knoxville. How many of them got sick and tired having to justify why they didn't attend a STS live? Did they have a note from their doctor? Even if they did, they could have been healed if they believed...so they failed anyhow.
I'm sure you all have stories. How about sharing too.
Patriot....Good Gawd! I left in 1987 and it was no where near that bad yet...It never ceases to amaze me how cotrolling and anally retentive the twi leadership became...what were these people thinking? Talk about being totally self deluded...this is not the way life works...that should have been plain for any fool to see.
The 250 mile radius - oh god - I even considered moving lol.
I call HFC to tell them daughter is sick and I can't go one Sunday, long conversaton on believing and healing etc. ensues. Soon I am packing her up to go to STS :blink: , she was at the age that she went to the children's fellowship while we were in the auditorium.
10 minutes after I get into the auditorium and settled in my seat, a coordinator from children's fellowship locates me in the auditorium to tell me my child is sick and I need to take her home DUH.......I didn't want to bring her to begin with. DUH she was sick, I knew that, I was her mom, and yet HFC had brow beaten me to take her yadda yadda yadda.
I do take responsibility in the fact I didn't stand up to these people and tell them to .... off.
I do take responsibility in the fact I didn't stand up to these people and tell them to .... off.
Well fog that is how we were taught. Believe in the chain of comand and do it. Not your fault it is their fault for controlling lives to keep us inside the box.
All of the reproof all of the yelling. I'm sure God did not mean for men and women to rip people apart with verbal assults. That is part of the immaturity of the way, scream and yell like a 4 year old untill they got their way. I really think God would want people to talk to each other and reprove believers in a pleasent way. Yes I GUESS a person could scream and yell at a person that was not doing the Word over and over again and all other methods have been tried. TWI was immature from the top down. Remember lcm was so immature to tell us he could run a fortune 500 company and what is he doing now? Sounds like he is running a french fry machine. Don't be surprised if he finds a fry comming out of the fryer and he thinks it looks like the blessed Mother Mary.
"Don't be surprised if he finds a fry comming out of the fryer and he thinks it looks like the blessed Mother Mary. "
...and tries to sell it on e-bay lol
Yeah loafing, it was like damned if I do and damned if I don't.......got reproved from HFC for not wanting to take her........got reproved from children's fellowship coordinator for taking her and possibly exposing other children to whatever she had.......you can't win with this group.
SafariVista - you're right on target!!!! It's a major case of learned-helplessness....Thinking back on the crisis phase of TWI after Patriarch - it looked like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off! All the decision-making and "thinking ability" resided [by consent of the masses] in the top leadership - and they [top leadership] "checked out" [didn't know what to do, inaction] - imho.
Oh Patriot, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Each of your examples, we've seen, experienced most of them and MORE... (think I could type on for weeks about this)
After leaving TWI in 2002, Hubby & I were in a stupor . For over 20 years we had some leadership directing us. Maybe not so noticeable in the beginning, for all of us SPIRITUALLY IGNORANT, LOST, DOG LIKE men and women of only BODY & SOUL.... the COUNCIL was a constant.
My first Twig experience, I didn't care for much. An evening with some wild (corps) women, (men were off doing something else). This group of gals seemed more interested in SEX, jokes about SEX, their cayenne pepper consumption and the effects it had for their husbands during SEX... There was included the short ritual of prayer & bible reading... Everything told me to RUN!!!
BUT there was a young man checking up on me, almost daily, letting me know my discomfort was due to all the wrong practices and thoughts in my life, and as more of the 'rightly divided word' was exposed to me, all the negative things would fade away, and I'd feel right at home, under the direct protection of God.
He let me know that 'quitting' would be dangerous, since the devil only wanted to keep me from the TRUTH. This was my chance, he would swear, if I wanted POWER in my life I needed to... do this, take this class...blah, blah, blah, blah-blah.... and thus the DIRECTION/COUNCEL BEGAN!
At first it was mostly about classes. I don't ever remember being totally left to make my own decisions about them, there was ALWAYS direction given, and usually with pressure. After a couple of classes, came the ONLY other choice to GROW... going WOW. If I wanted to grow 10 years in 1, this was my only choice.
There was DIRECTION/COUNCEL given for every week of each of those 21 years. The grip became tighter with each passing year. Our focus was being controlled, and we became like children, which we believed was a GOOD QUALITY SINCE TWI TAUGHT, THE MORE CONTROLLED YOUR LIFE IS, THE MORE FREEDOM YOU REALLY HAVE (drive heave...gag, gag, wipe)
We were being GROOMED to be LEADERS We KNEW HOW TO OBEY! (VOMIT) We became HFC's... and were told what to teach, when to teach, communicated almost daily w/ the BC's, and encouraged to GET INTO THE BUSINESS of our people… this was strange for us, but we were shown HOW TO DO IT!
All the 'coordinators' would get together for meetings at least once a month... Write down in our calendars the ‘events’ coming up, getting like-minded, and talk about people discuss and condemn their actions... ummm, I even remember discussing Abigail & her ex frequently.
So, after 21 years in TWI, we stood in a STUPOR... in our 40's, not ONLY UNSURE of what we wanted out of life, but clueless as to what was out there. We DID NOT know which way to go, or even where to begin. Like young kids lost in a Mall, with an unsure feeling of new High School Graduate~
THE MOST UNSETTELING ASPECT OF THIS, our FOUR children had always thought we knew most EVERYTHING about life, and we thought we did too.
I was no ordinary FOOL, and what was plain to those dogs OUTSIDE the WALLS OF ZION, well, they didn't have a clue when it came to SPIRITUAL MATTERS ;)
J/K of course... but for those still in, thoughts of LEAVING can be terrifying~ and that is VERY REAL :( Some people figure there just too OLD to lose the only life they've really known...
Talk about being totally self deluded...this is not the way life works...that should have been plain for any fool to see.
SafariVista - you're right on target!!!! It's a major case of learned-helplessness....Thinking back on the crisis phase of TWI after Patriarch it looked like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off! All the decision-making and "thinking ability" resided [by consent of the masses] in the top leadership- and they [top leadership] "checked out" [didn't know what to do, inaction] - imho.
Many of these leaders gathered 'their faithful' men and woman, and started their own group... we personally know some of these people... practicing THE SAME stuff TWI taught ... some are even worse in the yelling/pressure catagory.
They speak LOVE & GRACE... but are vicious! Leaving TWI for these people didn't seem as difficult, they just changed LOCATIONS/NAMES... continuing pretty much with the same patterns.
Oh, and I forgot to mention, those who were in the 250 mile radius from New Knoxville.
I had asked God to help me forget all of this foolishness, in hopes that I could be on my way to mature into a functioning, sane Adult~ enjoying many of the wonderful people and activities surrounding me...
BUT this statement brought back a FLOOD of memories!
Yes... living in MICHIGAN, we were THERE... and we supported the whole thing too! Couldn't WAIT to get to HEADQUARTERS , see the people... be in the BEAUTIFUL auditorium, sing, eat, drive, fellowship...
I LOVED it :)
Even got close to some New Knoxville locals... I won't mention who... they might get in trouble for showing me some extra attention
"All the 'coordinators' would get together for meetings at least once a month... Write down in our calendars the ‘events’ coming up, getting like-minded, and talk about people discuss and condemn their actions... ummm, I even remember discussing Abigail & her ex frequently. "
ROFLMAPMP - and I bet we gave ya'll plenty to talk about. Someday, Safari, I would love to hear what was said, though I can imagine it!
Yes, learned helplesness and dependancy were big tools of TWI. I resisted that at first, but over time and with the birth of my children it became more and more difficult to resist. And I believe the leaders (not you Safari, as thank goodness you were never my l leader) saw that in me and worked hard to beat it out of me. That would be the only explanation for why they would support my (now ex) husband in his decree that made me a virtual prisoner in my own home.
And I too endured the conflicting no-win advice of leadership. I remember taking my youngest to a children's fellowship, he was maybe a year old, and was never away from me except for during TWI functions. He would cry and cry when I left him, so I would stay and try to help him get settled in and get comfortable. I was reproved for doing that and told I needed to drop him and run. Then your husband, Safari, reproved me for leaving him cry like that. But I have to tell you, I really appreciated what your husband said to me, because it was exactly what my heart was saying to me - don't leave your child cry!
I was also reproved once for bringing the kids to a viewing of the Martin Luther film, even though the very people reproving me were the same ones who INSISTED despite MY PROTESTS that I bring them.
"All the 'coordinators' would get together for meetings at least once a month... Write down in our calendars the ‘events’ coming up, getting like-minded, and talk about people discuss and condemn their actions... ummm, I even remember discussing Abigail & her ex frequently. "
ROFLMAPMP - and I bet we gave ya'll plenty to talk about. Someday, Safari, I would love to hear what was said, though I can imagine it!
I remember taking my youngest to a children's fellowship, he was maybe a year old, and was never away from me except for during TWI functions. He would cry and cry when I left him, so I would stay and try to help him get settled in and get comfortable. I was reproved for doing that and told I needed to drop him and run. Then your husband, Safari, reproved me for leaving him cry like that. But I have to tell you, I really appreciated what your husband said to me, because it was exactly what my heart was saying to me - don't leave your child cry!
Sickening isn't it... Dear, dear Abigail... specific details may be gone forever. I do recall sitting 'around the table' at these pompous meetings... my thinking going in different directions. Who the heck did these people think they were? Were their lives so perfect they earned some right to discuss and direct the lives of others.
(I believe I even put in a 'good work' for some folks, since I knew them better ... ... I was ignored!)
Each of these leaders had their own problems... they had secrets... they greased palms... they told lies... and they put on a good show :unsure:
Oh, my husband... yes, he HATED for a child to cry without being comforted. He insisted with our own, that I stay on it... until 'it was fixed' They never cried themselves to sleep... His reasoning was, since God would never leave us or forsake us, and He loved us and had mercy on us, we should treat our children with the same care and respect
He had been REPROVED so many times, for so many years, I thought at one point I'd lose him. He was just a shell of a man not too long ago... regaining confidence was a struggle for him, and at times would go off in a dangerous direction. The tension, anger, frustration, bewilderment was so intense…
I must say, all the work to get out of TWI and it's twisted, mind/life controlling teachings and techniques, have been worth all the effort... and yet, we're still working on it :(
I really think God would want people to talk to each other and reprove believers in a pleasent way. Yes I GUESS a person could scream and yell at a person that was not doing the Word over and over again and all other methods have been tried. TWI was immature from the top down.
Interesting Justloafing... the example for a Christian was suppose to be Jesus Christ. And the 'example' TWI used over & over to justify the rantings, was Jesus in the Temple, overturning the moneychangers' tables. (as in, if something is wrong, get in there, be bold and take care of it)
Were these 'moneychangers' his close disciples, or part of any household fellowship?...
Also the example of Jesus 'forsaking' his family... Mar 3:35 "For whosoever, shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Does it say to turn you back on your natural family if they don't agree with your doctrine?
Perhaps he was letting people know a BIGGER PICTURE… beginning to show the massiveness of the One Body~
It's immature to insist on ONLY MY WAY or NOTHING... and the more I stand back and look at the whole picture of TWI, the more comical it seems... Adults having a tantrum (well, it's very sad too)
I must say, all the work to get out of TWI and it's twisted, mind/life controlling teachings and techniques, have been worth all the effort... and yet, we're still working on it :(
There was one time during a "loving confrontation" that I did refuse to do what the HFC and his wife were "suggesting".
The assistant HFC had a teenage son who seemed quite fond of my teenage daughter at the time. My daughter was dating a young man not affiliated with the ministry and I was allowing her to ride in his car. Previously, the young man in our fellowship wanted to take my daughter out one night. I would not allow my daughter to ride with him in his car. You ask why.....why would I let her go with an unbeliever in a car and not a believer. Well the young believer boy tended to like to drive his pick up quite fast and had rolled it at least twice. But I really got accused, as some of you can imagine, about this apparent slap in the face to a believer boy.
I stood my ground though (could be why the second or third time I stood my ground that I got thrown out.)
Then as we were all discussing this at the HFC's table along with the assistant, they tried to convince me that she shouldn't date outside the ministry and that she should consider dating the assistants son. I already knew my daughter did not like him in that way. There were no other kids her age to date in our area, except 20 minutes away at HQ and we only went there on Sundays. She begged and pleaded for me not to go along with this. Of course, I did not and never even considered it. That was just going to far over the line once again for this outfit. She did not want to date him and I wasn't going to force her to. Imagine how the assistant must have felt with me having to defend to the HFC why I wasn't going to force my daughter to date her son or drive in his truck. I felt they had really put her on the spot. Made me seem like the bad guy for having to say these things in front of her.
Just another example of the lengths these people would go to, to control every aspect of your life and your family's life.
What non-sense! Telling our children who they can and can't date? (I do remember that thinking... oh, that's right, I married a 'believer'... someone said it can ALWAYS work between two BELIEVERS)
Now, talking, teaching, and most importantly, being a good example... it seems 'the wrong' person wouldn't be very appealing to young people.
Controlling our children as TWI directs, breeds immature young people who may gladly rush off in the wrong direction. They will lack confidence in decision making, and fall prey to someone who's willing to tell them what to do! Maybe that's why parents in TWI are told NOT to allow their college kids to MOVE too FAR AWAY... so parents can keep dictating!
OMG! I just remembered Donna teaching that as kids get older THEY NEED MORE SUPERVISION! It's all coming back to me :(
A young person is looking forward to their FREEDOM! Freedom from parents and being told what to do... freedom to make their own choices...
My daughter has a boyfriend. Several other boys have had their 'eye' on her, and many have asked her out. She's sticking with this one guy. The 'friends' were getting together for a bon-fire, and one of the girls invited a boy that had been 'turned down' recently. I said, 'that doesn't sound like a very good idea'
Well... she came home with a big story. When the 'turned down' guy showed up... it was a stare down between him & the 'boyfriend', for at least 3 HOURS! She said she's never been so uncomfortable in her life... That learning couldn't have come JUST from my words OR any Bible verse!
Mature adults realize there is only so much they can do for their children. The more experiences they have, the more they'll learn, and the stronger they'll be.
Always be ready to help and comfort... Unfortunately, what we've seen in TWI, the kids that stray, get CUT OFF until they decide to COME BACK TO THE HOUSEHOLD (again… my way or the Highway… immaturity, pettiness, irresponsibility?)
I remember thinking back when the teachings about supervising teen and college kids were coming from HQ, that soon LCM and Donna would be advocating arranged marriages for our kids. It seemed like the next step.
Bramble, your comment here, sparked something from long ago.
It seems my lack of communication and people skills made it TEMPTING for me to believe I needed what the TWI folks were offering?
Two constants for me growing up, was that my Mother was always home, and, we would probably NOT talk about the events of the day in any detail.
Without COMMUNICATION, learning and practicing THINKING skills, there was very little growth. I was somewhat 'empty' and insecure (IMMATURE), susceptible to groups like TWI... just so happened they got to me first.
TWI SAID to have BOLDNESS & CONFIDANCE in God. Reality within TWI was, to Trust their TEACHINGS, their LEADERSHIP… (STAYING IMMATURE)
Anyone remember this song:
TRUST AND OBEY, FOR THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO BE HAPPY IN CHRIST, BUT TO TURST AND OBEY~ a song sang by the ‘chorus choir’, an original written by Rev J H Sammis copyright 1921... And yes, JESUS had been changed to CHRIST, to FIT TWI teachings
Safari, I too have looked at the person I was when I got involved with TWI, the things that made me vulnerable. I was raised to be cpmpliant and pleasing, and someone else would do the hard stuff for me. I'm sure that played a huge part in my years in TWI.
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Vyctorya911
I don't think they are breeding immaturity per say buut they are setting people up for quite a reality check. The young people mainly hear & believe only what they are taught by TWI people without considering any other points of view. There is certainly more "truth"& more to learn than what is in their teachings. So I think overall they are not giving much room to really grow & learn. That certainly can & does make it hard when trying to develop relationships (work, personal, etc). It also makes it hard to get along with others & impossible to think for yourself.
Vyctorya
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johniam
quote: Quick to write off anyone ‘outside their Walls of Zion’…in the REAL WORLD, this would be deemed ‘Immature and thoughtless'.
This is all relative. I grew up a liberal on a street full of fundamentalists. I never heard of anybody going to hell for skipping Sunday school until I heard it from the fundamentalist kids. My mom calmly said that's what they are taught to believe; you don't have to believe that. So by your definition, the "real world" is the majority. I was in this liberal "cult" and everybody else on my street were the "real world". Eventually I mixed with people who weren't fundamentalists and it was all moot.
I think you have to be flexible. Sure, you can't just expect people outside TWI to just listen to you and not give their input; you have to be discreet, wise. TWI may have discouraged this in later years, but it's not like you ever needed TWI to figure stuff like that out for you.
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Patriot
Hey SV,
Your observation nailed this one on the head (unfortunately true)
Even when I was in, even when I had positions of leadership, I saw that totally, and was embarassed by it. The best way to describe it was making you child-like dependent on leadership, or "the system."
Craig said that parents shouldn't send their children to college more than 1 1/2 hours away. The Corps leadership took that standard, and made it a doctrine for parents who had opportunities to send their children away further. I remember people being confronted for even considering the opportunities, even if their kids did get scholarships.
One of the ways the high-up "fat cat" leaders made people dependent was by overteaching (and overreaching) the concept of getting "wise counsel"(WC). It was pretty much required for anything. For the Corps, they were required to get this WC for about any bigger decision - should we have another child, should I change jobs, should I accept contact from friends & family who left the ministry, should I let my sons join soccer, etc. It was sooooo awful!
The paid Way Corps were given money in their budget from twi to put in savings toward their next purchase of a car (probably not a new one). They were REQUIRED from twi to actually show how that monthly amount was put into that "replacement car" category. They did this until they found out it was illegal, and then the Trunk coordinator (B*ll G) wrote a letter "encouraging" the paid Corps to show their overseers that they did so. You can trust them with running meetings, but just not putting away $ for a car. I joke with you...not!
Yeah, I remember hearing about our Region coordinators call the Trunk for about every stupid decision they had in their lives for "WC." It made them dependent on others so called "insight." Then the worst happened....... :blink: .....then they required all their subordinates (Limb, Way Corps, believers in their Limb, Branch, etc.) to come to them on every stupid decision too. As a matter of fact, I remember hearing when my Limb coordinators were in a meeting, the Region coordinators reamed the LC's wives, because they didn't call the RC's wife for "wise counsel" on a regular basis. By the way, most of the other wives never NEEDED her help (no problems, solid marriages, been married longer w/better behaved kids, etc.). How dare they
!!! So he set it up where on a schedule where those ladies were to call his wife to check in on life in general, where she would offer her "wise counsel" as a wife.
As stupid as it sounds (and it really was), my Limb coordinators never blamed those zealous Region coordinators. They felt that they were just trying to do right, by doing what others required of them, assuming that everything was right. Still, the examples I could cite could go on and on and on.......
Child-like dependency = Immature Adults :wacko:
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Patriot
Oh, and I forgot to mention, those who were in the 250 mile radius from New Knoxville. How many of them got sick and tired having to justify why they didn't attend a STS live? Did they have a note from their doctor? Even if they did, they could have been healed if they believed...so they failed anyhow.
I'm sure you all have stories. How about sharing too.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Patriot....Good Gawd! I left in 1987 and it was no where near that bad yet...It never ceases to amaze me how cotrolling and anally retentive the twi leadership became...what were these people thinking? Talk about being totally self deluded...this is not the way life works...that should have been plain for any fool to see.
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outofdafog
The 250 mile radius - oh god - I even considered moving lol.
I call HFC to tell them daughter is sick and I can't go one Sunday, long conversaton on believing and healing etc. ensues. Soon I am packing her up to go to STS :blink: , she was at the age that she went to the children's fellowship while we were in the auditorium.
10 minutes after I get into the auditorium and settled in my seat, a coordinator from children's fellowship locates me in the auditorium to tell me my child is sick and I need to take her home DUH.......I didn't want to bring her to begin with. DUH she was sick, I knew that, I was her mom, and yet HFC had brow beaten me to take her yadda yadda yadda.
I do take responsibility in the fact I didn't stand up to these people and tell them to .... off.
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excathedra
yuck
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justloafing
Well fog that is how we were taught. Believe in the chain of comand and do it. Not your fault it is their fault for controlling lives to keep us inside the box.
All of the reproof all of the yelling. I'm sure God did not mean for men and women to rip people apart with verbal assults. That is part of the immaturity of the way, scream and yell like a 4 year old untill they got their way. I really think God would want people to talk to each other and reprove believers in a pleasent way. Yes I GUESS a person could scream and yell at a person that was not doing the Word over and over again and all other methods have been tried. TWI was immature from the top down. Remember lcm was so immature to tell us he could run a fortune 500 company and what is he doing now? Sounds like he is running a french fry machine. Don't be surprised if he finds a fry comming out of the fryer and he thinks it looks like the blessed Mother Mary.
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outofdafog
"Don't be surprised if he finds a fry comming out of the fryer and he thinks it looks like the blessed Mother Mary. "
...and tries to sell it on e-bay lol
Yeah loafing, it was like damned if I do and damned if I don't.......got reproved from HFC for not wanting to take her........got reproved from children's fellowship coordinator for taking her and possibly exposing other children to whatever she had.......you can't win with this group.
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T-Bone
SafariVista - you're right on target!!!! It's a major case of learned-helplessness....Thinking back on the crisis phase of TWI after Patriarch - it looked like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off! All the decision-making and "thinking ability" resided [by consent of the masses] in the top leadership - and they [top leadership] "checked out" [didn't know what to do, inaction] - imho.
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SafariVista
ding, ding, ding, ding, ding..... buzzzz, buzzzz... whoowhooo!
Oh Patriot, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Each of your examples, we've seen, experienced most of them and MORE... (think I could type on for weeks about this)
After leaving TWI in 2002, Hubby & I were in a stupor
. For over 20 years we had some leadership directing us. Maybe not so noticeable in the beginning, for all of us SPIRITUALLY IGNORANT, LOST, DOG LIKE men and women of only BODY & SOUL.... the COUNCIL was a constant.
My first Twig experience, I didn't care for much. An evening with some wild (corps) women, (men were off doing something else). This group of gals seemed more interested in SEX, jokes about SEX, their cayenne pepper consumption and the effects it had for their husbands during SEX... There was included the short ritual of prayer & bible reading... Everything told me to RUN!!!
BUT there was a young man checking up on me, almost daily, letting me know my discomfort was due to all the wrong practices and thoughts in my life, and as more of the 'rightly divided word' was exposed to me, all the negative things would fade away, and I'd feel right at home, under the direct protection of God.
He let me know that 'quitting' would be dangerous, since the devil only wanted to keep me from the TRUTH. This was my chance, he would swear, if I wanted POWER in my life I needed to... do this, take this class...blah, blah, blah, blah-blah.... and thus the DIRECTION/COUNCEL BEGAN!
At first it was mostly about classes. I don't ever remember being totally left to make my own decisions about them, there was ALWAYS direction given, and usually with pressure. After a couple of classes, came the ONLY other choice to GROW... going WOW. If I wanted to grow 10 years in 1, this was my only choice.
There was DIRECTION/COUNCEL given for every week of each of those 21 years. The grip became tighter with each passing year. Our focus was being controlled, and we became like children, which we believed was a GOOD QUALITY
SINCE TWI TAUGHT, THE MORE CONTROLLED YOUR LIFE IS, THE MORE FREEDOM YOU REALLY HAVE (drive heave...gag, gag, wipe)
We were being GROOMED to be LEADERS We KNEW HOW TO OBEY! (VOMIT) We became HFC's... and were told what to teach, when to teach, communicated almost daily w/ the BC's, and encouraged to GET INTO THE BUSINESS of our people… this was strange for us, but we were shown HOW TO DO IT!
All the 'coordinators' would get together for meetings at least once a month... Write down in our calendars the ‘events’ coming up, getting like-minded, and talk about people
discuss and condemn their actions... ummm, I even remember discussing Abigail & her ex frequently. 
So, after 21 years in TWI, we stood in a STUPOR... in our 40's, not ONLY UNSURE of what we wanted out of life, but clueless as to what was out there. We DID NOT know which way to go, or even where to begin. Like young kids lost in a Mall, with an unsure feeling of new High School Graduate~
THE MOST UNSETTELING ASPECT OF THIS, our FOUR children had always thought we knew most EVERYTHING about life, and we thought we did too.
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SafariVista
Ah Groucho :)
I was no ordinary FOOL, and what was plain to those dogs OUTSIDE the WALLS OF ZION, well, they didn't have a clue when it came to SPIRITUAL MATTERS ;)
J/K of course... but for those still in, thoughts of LEAVING can be terrifying~ and that is VERY REAL :( Some people figure there just too OLD to lose the only life they've really known...
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SafariVista
Many of these leaders gathered 'their faithful' men and woman, and started their own group... we personally know some of these people... practicing THE SAME stuff TWI taught ... some are even worse in the yelling/pressure catagory.
They speak LOVE & GRACE... but are vicious!
Leaving TWI for these people didn't seem as difficult, they just changed LOCATIONS/NAMES... continuing pretty much with the same patterns.
Some I heard are okay <_<
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SafariVista
I had asked God to help me forget all of this foolishness, in hopes that I could be on my way to mature into a functioning, sane Adult~ enjoying many of the wonderful people and activities surrounding me...
BUT this statement brought back a FLOOD of memories!
Yes... living in MICHIGAN, we were THERE... and we supported the whole thing too! Couldn't WAIT to get to HEADQUARTERS
, see the people... be in the BEAUTIFUL auditorium, sing, eat, drive, fellowship...
I LOVED it :)
Even got close to some New Knoxville locals... I won't mention who... they might get in trouble for showing me some extra attention
What an idiot I was~
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Abigail
"All the 'coordinators' would get together for meetings at least once a month... Write down in our calendars the ‘events’ coming up, getting like-minded, and talk about people discuss and condemn their actions... ummm, I even remember discussing Abigail & her ex frequently. "
ROFLMAPMP - and I bet we gave ya'll plenty to talk about. Someday, Safari, I would love to hear what was said, though I can imagine it!
Yes, learned helplesness and dependancy were big tools of TWI. I resisted that at first, but over time and with the birth of my children it became more and more difficult to resist. And I believe the leaders (not you Safari, as thank goodness you were never my l leader) saw that in me and worked hard to beat it out of me. That would be the only explanation for why they would support my (now ex) husband in his decree that made me a virtual prisoner in my own home.
And I too endured the conflicting no-win advice of leadership. I remember taking my youngest to a children's fellowship, he was maybe a year old, and was never away from me except for during TWI functions. He would cry and cry when I left him, so I would stay and try to help him get settled in and get comfortable. I was reproved for doing that and told I needed to drop him and run. Then your husband, Safari, reproved me for leaving him cry like that. But I have to tell you, I really appreciated what your husband said to me, because it was exactly what my heart was saying to me - don't leave your child cry!
I was also reproved once for bringing the kids to a viewing of the Martin Luther film, even though the very people reproving me were the same ones who INSISTED despite MY PROTESTS that I bring them.
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SafariVista
Sickening isn't it... Dear, dear Abigail... specific details may be gone forever. I do recall sitting 'around the table' at these pompous meetings... my thinking going in different directions. Who the heck did these people think they were? Were their lives so perfect they earned some right to discuss and direct the lives of others.
(I believe I even put in a 'good work' for some folks, since I knew them better
... ... I was ignored!)
Each of these leaders had their own problems... they had secrets... they greased palms... they told lies... and they put on a good show :unsure:
Oh, my husband... yes, he HATED for a child to cry without being comforted. He insisted with our own, that I stay on it... until 'it was fixed'
They never cried themselves to sleep... His reasoning was, since God would never leave us or forsake us, and He loved us and had mercy on us, we should treat our children with the same care and respect 
He had been REPROVED so many times, for so many years, I thought at one point I'd lose him. He was just a shell of a man not too long ago... regaining confidence was a struggle for him, and at times would go off in a dangerous direction. The tension, anger, frustration, bewilderment was so intense…
I must say, all the work to get out of TWI and it's twisted, mind/life controlling teachings and techniques, have been worth all the effort... and yet, we're still working on it :(
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SafariVista
Interesting Justloafing... the example for a Christian was suppose to be Jesus Christ. And the 'example' TWI used over & over to justify the rantings, was Jesus in the Temple, overturning the moneychangers' tables. (as in, if something is wrong, get in there, be bold and take care of it)
Were these 'moneychangers' his close disciples, or part of any household fellowship?...
Also the example of Jesus 'forsaking' his family... Mar 3:35 "For whosoever, shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Does it say to turn you back on your natural family if they don't agree with your doctrine?
Perhaps he was letting people know a BIGGER PICTURE… beginning to show the massiveness of the One Body~
It's immature to insist on ONLY MY WAY or NOTHING... and the more I stand back and look at the whole picture of TWI, the more comical it seems... Adults having a tantrum
(well, it's very sad too)
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skyrider
I couldn't agree more.
:)
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outofdafog
There was one time during a "loving confrontation" that I did refuse to do what the HFC and his wife were "suggesting".
The assistant HFC had a teenage son who seemed quite fond of my teenage daughter at the time. My daughter was dating a young man not affiliated with the ministry and I was allowing her to ride in his car. Previously, the young man in our fellowship wanted to take my daughter out one night. I would not allow my daughter to ride with him in his car. You ask why.....why would I let her go with an unbeliever in a car and not a believer. Well the young believer boy tended to like to drive his pick up quite fast and had rolled it at least twice. But I really got accused, as some of you can imagine, about this apparent slap in the face to a believer boy.
I stood my ground though (could be why the second or third time I stood my ground that I got thrown out.)
Then as we were all discussing this at the HFC's table along with the assistant, they tried to convince me that she shouldn't date outside the ministry and that she should consider dating the assistants son. I already knew my daughter did not like him in that way. There were no other kids her age to date in our area, except 20 minutes away at HQ and we only went there on Sundays. She begged and pleaded for me not to go along with this. Of course, I did not and never even considered it. That was just going to far over the line once again for this outfit. She did not want to date him and I wasn't going to force her to. Imagine how the assistant must have felt with me having to defend to the HFC why I wasn't going to force my daughter to date her son or drive in his truck. I felt they had really put her on the spot. Made me seem like the bad guy for having to say these things in front of her.
Just another example of the lengths these people would go to, to control every aspect of your life and your family's life.
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SafariVista
Dang outofdafog!
What non-sense! Telling our children who they can and can't date? (I do remember that thinking... oh, that's right, I married a 'believer'... someone said it can ALWAYS work between two BELIEVERS)
Now, talking, teaching, and most importantly, being a good example... it seems 'the wrong' person wouldn't be very appealing to young people.
Controlling our children as TWI directs, breeds immature young people who may gladly rush off in the wrong direction. They will lack confidence in decision making, and fall prey to someone who's willing to tell them what to do! Maybe that's why parents in TWI are told NOT to allow their college kids to MOVE too FAR AWAY... so parents can keep dictating!
OMG! I just remembered Donna teaching that as kids get older THEY NEED MORE SUPERVISION! It's all coming back to me :(
A young person is looking forward to their FREEDOM! Freedom from parents and being told what to do... freedom to make their own choices...
My daughter has a boyfriend. Several other boys have had their 'eye' on her, and many have asked her out. She's sticking with this one guy. The 'friends' were getting together for a bon-fire, and one of the girls invited a boy that had been 'turned down' recently. I said, 'that doesn't sound like a very good idea'
Well... she came home with a big story. When the 'turned down' guy showed up... it was a stare down between him & the 'boyfriend', for at least 3 HOURS! She said she's never been so uncomfortable in her life... That learning couldn't have come JUST from my words OR any Bible verse!
Mature adults realize there is only so much they can do for their children. The more experiences they have, the more they'll learn, and the stronger they'll be.
Always be ready to help and comfort... Unfortunately, what we've seen in TWI, the kids that stray, get CUT OFF until they decide to COME BACK TO THE HOUSEHOLD
(again… my way or the Highway… immaturity, pettiness, irresponsibility?)
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Bramble
I remember thinking back when the teachings about supervising teen and college kids were coming from HQ, that soon LCM and Donna would be advocating arranged marriages for our kids. It seemed like the next step.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Abi, was this the recent Luther film/motion picture of 3 or so years ago?
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SafariVista
Bramble, your comment here, sparked something from long ago.
It seems my lack of communication and people skills made it TEMPTING for me to believe I needed what the TWI folks were offering?
Two constants for me growing up, was that my Mother was always home, and, we would probably NOT talk about the events of the day in any detail.
Without COMMUNICATION, learning and practicing THINKING skills, there was very little growth. I was somewhat 'empty' and insecure (IMMATURE), susceptible to groups like TWI... just so happened they got to me first.
TWI SAID to have BOLDNESS & CONFIDANCE in God. Reality within TWI was, to Trust their TEACHINGS, their LEADERSHIP… (STAYING IMMATURE)
Anyone remember this song:
TRUST AND OBEY, FOR THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO BE HAPPY IN CHRIST, BUT TO TURST AND OBEY~ a song sang by the ‘chorus choir’, an original written by Rev J H Sammis copyright 1921... And yes, JESUS had been changed to CHRIST, to FIT TWI teachings
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Bramble
Safari, I too have looked at the person I was when I got involved with TWI, the things that made me vulnerable. I was raised to be cpmpliant and pleasing, and someone else would do the hard stuff for me. I'm sure that played a huge part in my years in TWI.
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