In pfal we learned how vpw interpreted the Bible. On the Associated Press wires today, I found this story about reactions the Left Behind series and thought it had some interesting points about Dispensationalism, which is what vpw believed, he just used the word administration.
I think it is pertinent for our discussion since Mike is so sold out to way theology. Here's a portion of the story.
Carl E. Olson in ?Will Catholics Be ?Left Behind??: A Catholic Critique of the Rapture and Today?s Prophecy Preachers? (Ignatius).Olson is as well-informed on this as Burge, since he was trained in the ?Dispensationalist? theology that underlies the ?Left Behind? series and similar books. He studied at Briercrest Bible College in Caronport, Saskatchewan, but converted to Catholicism in 1997 and now defends his newfound church in Envoy and This Rock magazines.
Olson objects that the popular End Times scenarios have a low regard for the church and Christian tradition.
In addition, he says, Dispensationalism recognizes ?little or no continuity between the Israel of the Old Testament and the New Testament church.? In certain variants, even New Testament teachings are sometimes seen as not applying to Christians, only to Israel.
Dispensationalist teachers, Olson contends, ?have inserted divisions and distinctions in Scripture, often arbitrary and artificial in nature,? that are not self-evident in the Bible itself.
One important problem, he continues, is that apocalyptic and poetic writings (especially Revelation) are interpreted as literal forecasts rather than as symbolic messages to the church.
Olson concludes that the literalist view ?is a fabrication inconsistent in practice and misleading in theory.? The Christian position on the End Times, he says, has always been simply this:
?Christ will return with and for his saints; he will judge all of mankind; time will end; and eternity will begin.?
The same viewpoint underlies ?Whose Land? Whose Promise?: What Christians Are Not Being Told About Israel and the Palestinians? (Pilgrim) by Gary M. Burge, a Bible professor at Wheaton College, an evangelical school in Illinois.
As Burge?s title implies, his chief concern is fellow evangelicals? uncritical support for whatever Israel does and neglect of Palestinian justice claims.
He focuses hard on the widespread evangelical belief (shared with West Bank settlers and some other Jews) that Israel has a rightful claim to all territory between Egypt and Iraq?s Euphrates River because of God?s land grant in Genesis 15:18.
Burge says the Bible teaches that the gift of the Holy Land never required dispossession of non-Israelites from their homes and lands. In fact, biblical law is notable for giving full rights to non-Israelite neighbors, he says.
He also says in the biblical understanding, the gift of land is conditioned on faithfulness to God, citing for instance God?s words in Deuteronomy 4:25-40 just before the Israelites conquered Canaan. Religious infidelity, God warned, would mean that the nation would be destroyed, the promised land lost and the people scattered among the nations.
Both books are vigorous and interesting, but unlikely to make much of a dent in the End Times audience being built by radio and TV evangelists and popular writers.
You wrote: ?The uncommon nature of your declarations has stirred an equally uncommon tempest at the GSC, both of which have helped me to further understand my PFAL/TWI experience. I love this place, and I?m truly glad you came. I have healed greatly.?
I?m glad to hear things are happening.
***
You wrote: ?Like you, I do believe VPW learned things from God and that PFAL is God-breathed. But unlike you, I believe that God breathes more frequently than this, especially AFTER Pentecost.?
I agree that Pentecost was a breakthrough and that God can get much more of His guidance to us by the 3 revelation manifestations. However, it might be noted that even after Pentecost, God still had a hard time getting the big revelations through to Peter and the apostles. It took years for God to find one man who was capable of believing that far, and 5-senses wise he was a ringer. Even after Paul believed it still took a generation to get it through to Peter. Then it was lost again for a couple more millennia.
The kind of revelation that Pentecost made more available was the everyday specific kind of thing like try out for that job, and don?t speed through that green light. But for new or lost doctrine to get through, more than Pentecost is needed. The greatness of God?s Word is too big for an ordinary human to believe all alone to receive, without any company believing with him. If it?s not in writing (and gold edged do help) then VERY few people are able to believe a direct revelation that is extremely anti-tradition. God may breath out, but how many of us can be the first to breath it in?
***
You wrote: ?And that VPW?s style of contribution is but a drop in the ocean. And that his errors did affect his ability to give. But God does make lemonade out of lemons. Thus, we can learn from PFAL.?
I agree that his style may be less than the coolest Hollywood has to offer. But the end product, the PFAL writings, are unique. Sure Dr?s flesh errors and idiocy made it less efficient for him and more complicated for us, but Dr?s phase is over for this project. His contribution is done, and God got His Word into written form. Now the spotlight is on us as we learn to recognize this Word and run with it.
***
You wrote: ?If you mean that the TVT had lost most of its fun by then, I would agree. __ But if you mean that no one could learn as much from PFAL after the 80?s (except what you have learned, of course), you contradict yourself greatly, and I think YOU actually cut yourself off from a heap of understanding that is available from PFAL.?
I do NOT mean to say ?that no one can learn as much from PFAL after the 80?s.? I have mentioned that people who have not seen the functioning years of the early ministry have less natural motivation to slog through the cult fears, sex scandals, etc. It takes a lot of determination to not respond to the tug of these natural forces, and people who never knew Dr?s good sides or the good years of the ministry may be less inclined to learn from PFAL. I treasure the exceptions to this seemingly practical rule of thumb.
***
You wrote: ?Besides, if corrupt TVT can really stop God from teaching the meek, what does that say about God?s ability and willingness? Not much, I?d say, which is again, one of my major beefs with you.?
I?d say it?s not God?s fault. The reason the TVT can stop PEOPLE (not stop God) is because people too often have more than one desire they're juggling. The desire to know God is in there along with the desire to be respected by people. God is invisible and people are visible, so sometimes it?s the people ball that gets caught in when situations get tight.
God?s willingness and ability must operate within His willingness and ability to honor all the rest of His laws.
***
You wrote: ?It bothers me how you presume to know what everyone experienced in TWI better than they themselves. And I?m sure this cuts many to the bone.?
I?m generally careful in blanket accusations.
I think it?s safe to say that none of us learned all nine all the time, even though I realize all nine DID get operated once in a while.
I think it?s safe to say that none of us REALLY mastered PFAL, that?s mastered it in our SPIRITUAL understanding, even though many did an admirable job in picking up many research techniques that turned out to be plenty powerful for working many scriptures.
I think it?s safe to say that there were a lot of things that Dr said in his last years that few were paying close attention to, and that most of us allowed many things to slip by us that he said in those last years. I don?t think it should be looked at as an ego trip of mine when I say I found these things. I WANTED to find them, while few others did. I spent the time to find these things, and it took years.
Outside of those three things, there are not too many more you could add to your list of bone cutters.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 21, 2003 at 19:50.]
You wrote: "I'll post it in this space only if Mike grants permission. I consider it off topic.?
Keeping this thread on topic has proved to be impossible. At this point I?m thankful for how often we just bring it back to topic. Please don?t let me interfere with full communications.
You wrote about alternative models to the Gathering Togerther. In all these years, your post is only the second I?ve seen to go against the very popular ?left behind? kind of scenario. I?m slowly becoming aware of those who have not embraced this scenario.
I remember seeing a poster in the 70?s of the supposed situation, with cars careening off the freeway, each one with a broken windshield near the steering wheel, and such. My guts impression was one of ?I could do better than that? in the sense of how decent and in order the Gathering Together could be carried out. I imagined angels encountering the drivers of those cars and being distracted or re-routed to avoid crashes. The instantaneous synchronization of everybody leaving at once seemed unnecessary, and if God had to wait a few minutes for one car to stop, I didn?t see anyone complaining.
These were early objections I had to what I called the ?Broken Windshield? model of the gathering. I hardly ever voiced them, but I felt there was something wrong about a lot of the ?left behind? theology. When I came back to PFAL one of the first things I learned was that our TVT understanding of the gathering was very sketchy.
One of the biggest revisions I?ve done in my understanding of the Gathering Together is to watch closely the difference between the Natural/Factual and the Spiritual/Divine. As this subject has grown in my mind and in my PFAL reading, the ?left behind? theology looks more and more childish in it?s 5-senses orientation.
As this thread wraps up these loose ends, I want to go into this subject much deeper.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 21, 2003 at 19:51.]
Yes, I?m saying that I heard almost no discussion other than the Broken Windshield model.
Most of my 70?s discussions with denominational types centered on the trinity and SIT. I figured we agreed on the Gathering Together (except for the pre-wrath post wrath stuff) already, and it seldom came up on their accord. Within the ministry I focused much of my discussion on how to get my life together, more discipline, more believing, more love, etc. My philosophy on the Gathering was a little uncomfortable. The windshields bothered me, and there were other things about it seemed fishy. I figured it was something wrong with me, and I?d just have to get over it. I never witnessed details of the Gathering to any non-Christians out of this discomfort.
Back then, my philosophy was that Jesus Christ was going to be personally present when it all took place, so I figured he?d set things straight then. I used to call it boot camp in the sky, and I was happy not thinking about it too much until it happened.
After the 80?s ministry meltdown my focus was on investigating what went wrong. I did sample a bunch of churches for fellowship, but eventually felt my calling was to work with and for grads. I get along with other Christians fine, and always have (after learning righteous dodging on trinity matters) but I also see that they have very little drive to learn all nine all the time. Even grads, lots of them, have been talked out of that one.
I?ve not gone to the internet for general discussion at all. In the information overload age it seems that we are constantly deciding what we don?t have time for.
I did see a thread here at GS a few years ago on the Return and everyone?s expectations as to how it will be. I saved that thread, and will have to go back to it soon. Maybe I?ll see some theories there on the Pauli Exclusion principle being revoked and an oozing through windshields offered as a better model.
Petard has been mastered only by Mike as far a I can read, I just apply discipline in mastering the instructions yet indeed the process remains ubiquitously hidden .
and the other thing is I do not think lamas play base ball at all .
sure go ahead you can chose who gets to eat snow cones and who doesnt does that mean I am less loved by the blue coocunuts? NO! I say it does not. sounds like your a respector of blue coconuts to me.
I just wanted to say my weekend was so great I now realize even if the code word whilred peas is used against me I can stand , yes I can I can see the tiny litle blender in my head with green peas going around in circles and know I can stay on the positive side of life.
I tried the point and shoot method of worship ex and I got the petard word it doesnt seem to work for the enitre day as an inspration, so I used the pull my finger method along with it and it was all good! thank you for sharing such insight.
Only speaking for myself here doll but I got to tell ya , I am really beginning to see your point about how someone can misplace their hostilities and be antagonistic about anothers beliefs whether they agree or not .
yep clearly you have shown us that truth !
I will also take your pearl of wisdom for MIke about the tearing down others!
quote:Then it (big revelations) was lost again for a couple more millennia.
I don?t believe that you, personally, have the ability to know this.
Yet, you wrote, towards the end of your response:
quote:I?m generally careful in blanket accusations.
What is this 'not-even-once-in-2-millennia' statement but a very broad and loose blanket accusation? Its like you are accusing everyone in the body of Christ of two millenia of spiritual inferiority.
That?s a tough sell, even by biblical standards. I say again, that no one in the old testament ever claimed such a lengthy spiritual drought.
quote:If it?s not in writing (and gold edged do help) then VERY few people are able to believe a direct revelation that is extremely anti-tradition.
Another blanket accusation that you are supposedly generally careful in?
And another cut to the bone for those (like me) who cherish what I learned via PFAL, particularly in the availability of direct revelation and its inherent nature of being anti-tradition.
Besides, are you actually saying that YOU know who and/or how many people are able to believe a direct revelation in 2k years of history?
"VERY few" is still a few.
So, who are they, since you seem to know that there are indeed a few?
quote: God may breath out, but how many of us can be the first to breath it in?
What do you mean, ?the first to breathe in??
There were 12 on Pentecost who were all the first to breathe in, in one regard. And the first to truly breathe in things such as the revelation of the mystery of Christ in you was Paul.
I honestly don?t understand what you are implying with your rhetorical question, so I?ll let you explain when you get a chance.
quote:I agree that his style may be less than the coolest Hollywood has to offer. But the end product, the PFAL writings, are unique.
I?ll agree (in part), but even then, what does being unique signify, spiritually?
Besides, are you implying that I value the cool Hollywood style over spiritual wisdom?
quote: Sure Dr?s flesh errors and idiocy made it less efficient for him and more complicated for us,
No argument here. Seems par for the course when it comes to most spiritual teachers. Though I do believe that some have been wiser than VPW to avoid such inefficiencies and complications when conveying spiritual matters. Wisdom and moderation are spiritual principles, especially of ministers, it seems.
quote:but Dr?s phase is over for this project. His contribution is done, and God got His Word into written form. Now the spotlight is on us as we learn to recognize this Word and run with it.
huh? (blink?blink)
We might have to just let these statements of yours hit the wind and fly, cuz it just seems like nothing but your general and oft-repeated statement of beliefs.
Fine. But in the midst of all our reasoning, it seems kinda redundant and out of place. I think most everyone already knows what it is that you believe.
quote: I do NOT mean to say ?that no one can learn as much from PFAL after the 80?s.?
I know. I know. But you DO seem to be saying that YOU know (by revelation or superior data or something) that no one has learned as much from PFAL after the 80s. Or that no one could possibly have.
quote: I have mentioned that people who have not seen the functioning years of the early ministry have less natural motivation to slog through the cult fears, sex scandals, etc.
But is ?less natural motivation? really a guarantee of the negative outcome?
Or just a fear of yours?
Do you actually think that because you think everyone in a certain category is inclined to be lazy, that everyone in that category will therefore be lazy, without exception? (yeah, my wording is intentional)
Mike, I honestly feel we could learn more from each other were you not so clumsy with your presumptions about everyone else?s ability and willingness and spirituallity. People have risen up and believed against all odds, ya know. The bible is full of stories about em.
quote: It takes a lot of determination to not respond to the tug of these natural forces, and people who never knew Dr?s good sides or the good years of the ministry may be less inclined to learn from PFAL.
So, what? No one has "a lot of determination?"
And again, does being among the "less inclined" spell certain spiritual doom?
Besides, what if all I knew of were the ?good years,? and had no cult fears, or knew of no sex scandals, and studied bigtime in meekness and isolation from corrupt TVT for 5 years?
Mike, I got what VPW was teaching.
And all I had were his written words.
I never met him in the flesh.
I never knew him in the flesh.
And as I mentioned before, my dearest friends were OLGs, many of them from single-digit Corps who came back to PFAL but did not serve in leadership capacity any more. They just shared with me their WISDOM from ?the good old days? as loving friends are known to do. They were content to serve alongside me outside of the Corps structure.
quote:I treasure the exceptions to this seemingly practical rule of thumb.
This is where you could have fooled me, bigtime!
Cuz I consider myself an exception, even according to your "seemingly practical rule of thumb."
But in both public and private, you have rejected my fellowship, unless it is on YOUR terms. (And the fellowship of others here, too, it seems. But I can only speak for myself.)
quote: I?d say it?s not God?s fault.
Of course. Its Job?s fault. Its Satan?s fault. It?s Eve?s fault. Its TVT?s fault. Its OLG?s fault. etc? But we've already played around here before to no avail. Call it a stalemate, I guess.
IMO, blame and guilt are of the spirit of anti-Christ anyway. Period.
And one of the oldest tricks and strongest forces in the book.
They build fear, which, of course, defeats the promises of God.
quote: The reason the TVT can stop PEOPLE (not stop God) is because people too often have more than one desire they're juggling. The desire to know God is in there along with the desire to be respected by people. God is invisible and people are visible, so sometimes it?s the people ball that gets caught in when situations get tight.
Again with what seems like a foolish presumption that if people are inclined to fall for the trick, then they must have fallen for the trick?
Am I misunderstanding you or something? I hope so. Cuz it speaks poorly of your opinion of other people in general.
An OLG, whom I knew like a brother and worked and served with, recalled how VPW confronted him once. This OLG was coming down on people at HQ for their lack of believing, and VPW just asked him something like, ?What do you think of people in general?? in order to reprove him. That was what was defeating this OLG?s believing. He told me how he then learned from VPW's correction how his own overall view of the ability and willingness in his brothers and sisters in Christ was skewed by his impatience and the senses results, and how his own fear of them failing defeated his ability to lead them.
This OLG told me of another time when one of his Corps brothers didn?t want to work, and so sat out. The OLG was a bit ticked, but VPW told him to let the guy sit and watch the rest of us work, and then enjoy the fellowship and reward of serving together. He said something like "he?ll get it on his own time. We just have to give him something that he?ll get. And that?s serving."
Of course, I am paraphrasing a paraphrased lesson, but the wisdom was there, and stuck with me. I can work with almost anyone now.
But this brings me to a big reason why I think so many of your antagonists have you in perpetual defense of your corner. Its like you have a sharp stick in your hand and don?t know it.
quote: God?s willingness and ability must operate within His willingness and ability to honor all the rest of His laws.
Huh?
And I can wrap my mind around some pretty complex paradigms, but this is a doozy. Its like its missing a big piece or something? Or just a spasm of superfluous language. Please explain.
quote: I?m generally careful in blanket accusations.
But did you read the next 4 paragraphs you wrote?
quote: I think it?s safe to say that none of us learned all nine all the time, even though I realize all nine DID get operated once in a while.
Is it really safe for you to say this?
quote:I think it?s safe to say that none of us REALLY mastered PFAL, that?s mastered it in our SPIRITUAL understanding, even though many did an admirable job in picking up many research techniques that turned out to be plenty powerful for working many scriptures.
Isn?t it safe to say that you can?t possibly know what everyone has or has not mastered?
Its like you would selectively believe that guys like me merely ?picked up many research techniques? rather than saw consistent spiritual understanding and power in application.
Application was always key for me. And in service.
Otherwise, there was no ultimate profit in what I was doing.
There couldn't be.
Mike, if someone (or group) does master PFAL today, what do you think would it look like? Honestly. Paint me a picture, please.
What if I told you that I did master PFAL, and in doing so, it freed me from the bars of its crib? Would you even try to believe me? Would you even want to try?
quote: I think it?s safe to say that there were a lot of things that Dr said in his last years that few were paying close attention to, and that most of us allowed many things to slip by us that he said in those last years.
I did read your emails on the subject, more than once.
I got something else out of them.
But I got what you were saying too.
So gimme some credit some time, will ya?
quote: I don?t think it should be looked at as an ego trip of mine when I say I found these things.
I agree. But what about guys like me?
Should you keep yourself from looking at what I?ve told you as an ego trip?
Its like you assume that everyone else suffers from a variety of self-deceptions, then are surprised when people are insulted by it.
quote:I WANTED to find them, while few others did. I spent the time to find these things, and it took years.
And why, in God?s name, do you presume that no one else ever wanted to or wants to find the deeper things of PFAL?
Honestly, how can you be SO damn sure of this that you?ll stand on a thread for months and accuse OLGs of things like spiritual laziness and forgetfulness, which has led to their spiritual deterioration and inferiority?
And then also accuse us non-OLGs (like me) of simply being introduced to PFAL too late to possibly find its true spiritual potential?
Is there now some sort of fate principle in PFAL, which deals people a bad spiritual hand if they were simply born too late?
Why do you so tie God?s hands with your own fears?
Doesn?t God?s willingness and ability far exceed yours and mine when it comes to PFAL?
quote: Outside of those three things, there are not too many more you could add to your list of bone cutters.
I contend that none of the three things are spiritually safe for YOU to say in the first place.
Besides, why are the bonecutters necessary?
I know, I know. Prophets call people back to the Word, and the Word is good for doctrine, for reproof and for correction. And the reproof can really require some pointed words at times. And men of God are almost always ridiculed and mocked, particularly when they are dishing out the reproof. And so on.
But I think we both know that the response is not what proves a prophet?s salt, right?
---
Mike, is it possible that you have certain fears that keep you yourself from seeing the greater promises of God come to pass?
Is it?
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 22, 2003 at 6:53.]
Mike, I know you are tight on time with all yer posting, but you really seemed to skip some of the more pertinent points in my prior post. Especially regarding my personal experience with PFAL.
Just pointing it out, cuz I honestly wish you wouldn't do it to this last one too.
Right now I?m only responding to your short, second post. Your longer one will take a little more time.
I will give it a try to respond to what you think is important, but let me point out that we are getting into that old loop of talking about what we were talking about. I?d rather discuss the details of the Word and what we were taught, instead of dealing with all this back and forth of who?s noble and who?s not, who?s spiritually sharp and who?s not, who?s lazy and who?s not.
Can?t you be satisfied in knowing that my high regard for all grads is frequently manifested by my devoting huge chunks of my time to help in sorting out all of what was what in our TWI experiences? I see grads as very special people, who are very close to the big enchilada.
I?m not trying to insult in any way, shape, or form. I simply observe in my family what was, until fairly recent events, a lack in my own life. I don?t mean to insult by saying to you or any grad that something went wrong with all of us, and this is what it was, so let?s fix it.
If I?m wrong in my observation, then those who know this for sure can excuse themselves from reading my posts. There are those who do this. If my wrong opinion bothers you and you feel I?m on an ego trip, then what can be done about it? Talk me out of it? Surely by now you know that?s not going to happen.
I think that many here who spend the time and effort to counter my posts know deep inside that there is something ringing true in what I write. This is probably an uncomfortable feeling for two reasons. One is the confusion and tangled mess that the TVT-PFAL got convoluted into. Even if this confusion factor was minimized, there?s the chagrin of seeing that we all seem to have fallen for 3 out of the 4 categories mentioned in the parable of the Sower and the Seed. This is not easy to face. No one wants to think that they made a systematic set of errors over the course of a decade or two or three.
Actually, when all the dust settles and confusion subsides due to the separation of PFAL from TVT, and when we become re-familiarization with the text, then I think that we will all face an exhilarating choice. We will be able to compare two scenarios of where we were wrong.
One is that our initial acceptance of PFAL was wrong, and then the rejection of it, TWI, and TVT are correct. This is the current model of many here.
The other choice is that our initial PFAL experiences were of God, and the subsequent mixing with TVT and rejection was wrong, but now we can come back to PFAL and continue our spiritual growth.
The former is fraught with the frustration that we were duped as kids, and are still victims in one way or another. This choice means that enlightenment is the return to normal, 5-senses, everyday, hum-drum reality with the occasional mild victory over the adversary, a few manifestations operated by us, but a sure win by him in the end. Then someday, some unknown day, God peels us up off the sidewalk and restores us.
The later paints a picture of us as normal humans who were called by God, who answered that call for a time, and then got tricked out of it in the usual ways mentioned in the Sower parable. This choice means a resumption of our answering the call of God to effect something that will benefit all mankind now.
One way or another, there?s a failure to deal with. Please don?t be offended if I say ?this here? is specifically where the error lies and not "that there", and this here error is easy to correct. Come back to PFAL and master it. As we get into the books more, and less into who?s got what kind of ego trip cooking, then we will be able to see our calling again.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 22, 2003 at 12:00.]
MissGT: I don't understand either... in your post:
SLOBS: are you yelling "SLOBS!" at any or all of us? if so, why? is it because we sometimes misspell? (for there is no way for you to know if we miss-spill, or are bad housekeepers).
Farters: (at least no yelling here) we all are probably guilty of that, even you women! Even though I thought a petard was a sort of spear-like thingie...
Nasty People: different folks here do get a little "worked up", but it appears as if it's flowing both ways...
I'm just wondering... is there anything I can do for you? would you like a snow cone? (your choice of flavor, my treat)
MJandher241: the lama is a golfer, everyone is free to partake of whatever flavor snow cone they wish, and whirled peas is up to each and every one of us...
quote: I?d rather discuss the details of the Word and what we were taught, instead of dealing with all this back and forth of who?s noble and who?s not, who?s spiritually sharp and who?s not, who?s lazy and who?s not.
I AM trying to discuss the details of the Word, and WHAT WE WERE TAUGHT.
How come you miss this?
And I never mentioned nobility. NOT ONCE.
And its YOU who initiated discussion of who's sharp and whose lazy.
In fact, it has been foundational to your message to the GSC.
So stop trying to pull my leg on this.
quote: Can?t you be satisfied in knowing that my high regard for all grads is frequently manifested by my devoting huge chunks of my time to help in sorting out all of what was what in our TWI experiences?
No.
Cuz you aint the guy to sort out everyone else's experience.
You might have a knack, and some truly amazing gifts...
But you have missed some important things.
There are things you CANNOT know, but continue to claim to know without substance.
Welcome to the body of Christ, pal.
quote: If I?m wrong in my observation, then those who know this for sure can excuse themselves from reading my posts. There are those who do this.
Wow! That's it, huh? If I know yer wrong about something, then just excuse myself from reading further? Go away and don't bother debating the issues with you?
Look, I value something as much as you do, in a different way, and this includes your fellowship, but the closer I try to get, the more of a thumbsucking spiritual chickensh!t you SEEM to become. Tho I?m willing to bet that its not the real you.
Doesn?t this mean anything to you?
quote:If my wrong opinion bothers you and you feel I?m on an ego trip, then what can be done about it? Talk me out of it? Surely by now you know that?s not going to happen.
Yer right. I should know by now that no one can talk you out of your ego trip. ;)-->
Be honest and just tell me to go away, Mike. And I will. Promise.
But know that I AM still interested in discussing things PFAL with you, and probably more than anyone else I know.
Do you even give a sh!t why?
Cuz I doubt you can know without my input.
Clue: it has nothing to do with ego or blame or guilt or fear.
---
re: The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW
"The greatness of the Power for Abundant Living Class is not in what I say, but in the greatness behind what I say." VPW
This is why I think mastery of PFAL does not require mastery in the letter of it. But mastery of the greatness behind it. When you master what is BEHIND PFAL, it become second nature and takes you to a higher place, quite beyond what is written in PFAL. Beyond even what VPW thought he had.
So I think we are on the same track, but ending up in different places.
Fine with me.
But I don't think PFAL is the only revelation that will do this.
It just happened to be the one revelation that did it for me.
And I WILL speak for myself on this.
Cuz I?ve seen more, too.
If you don?t even want to consider possibilities I?ve mentioned in an mutual and honest manner, fine. But please, be clearer than you have. Cuz you keep saying you DO want to consider unexplored possibilities of PFAL. Then you yank the opportunity away. This is foul.
Just know that I HAVE deeply considered what you?ve written to me in private and public. And my mind has changed about quite a few things because of it. But you ain't playing by yer own rules. And this too is foul and hurtful and seems quite selfish.
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 22, 2003 at 15:28.]
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Raf
Correction, you're paraphrasing Mike. I was quoting Mike, so if you're paraphrasing what I quoted, you're paraphrasing Mike.
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def59
Sorry for how it came out, but my irrelevant remark was meant as sarcasm. No human being is irrelevant.
t
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WordWolf
Rafael, please post the WHOLE quote. Some
people never got to see it...
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Raf
I'll post it in this space only if Mike grants permission. I consider it off topic.
(NOTE: Mike granted permission, sort of. At leas that's my interpretation of his reply...
So, when it comes to "Bible errors," Mike said the following, then applied it to PFAL as you can plainly see...
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on July 21, 2003 at 19:01.]
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def59
In pfal we learned how vpw interpreted the Bible. On the Associated Press wires today, I found this story about reactions the Left Behind series and thought it had some interesting points about Dispensationalism, which is what vpw believed, he just used the word administration.
I think it is pertinent for our discussion since Mike is so sold out to way theology. Here's a portion of the story.
Carl E. Olson in ?Will Catholics Be ?Left Behind??: A Catholic Critique of the Rapture and Today?s Prophecy Preachers? (Ignatius).Olson is as well-informed on this as Burge, since he was trained in the ?Dispensationalist? theology that underlies the ?Left Behind? series and similar books. He studied at Briercrest Bible College in Caronport, Saskatchewan, but converted to Catholicism in 1997 and now defends his newfound church in Envoy and This Rock magazines.
Olson objects that the popular End Times scenarios have a low regard for the church and Christian tradition.
In addition, he says, Dispensationalism recognizes ?little or no continuity between the Israel of the Old Testament and the New Testament church.? In certain variants, even New Testament teachings are sometimes seen as not applying to Christians, only to Israel.
Dispensationalist teachers, Olson contends, ?have inserted divisions and distinctions in Scripture, often arbitrary and artificial in nature,? that are not self-evident in the Bible itself.
One important problem, he continues, is that apocalyptic and poetic writings (especially Revelation) are interpreted as literal forecasts rather than as symbolic messages to the church.
Olson concludes that the literalist view ?is a fabrication inconsistent in practice and misleading in theory.? The Christian position on the End Times, he says, has always been simply this:
?Christ will return with and for his saints; he will judge all of mankind; time will end; and eternity will begin.?
The same viewpoint underlies ?Whose Land? Whose Promise?: What Christians Are Not Being Told About Israel and the Palestinians? (Pilgrim) by Gary M. Burge, a Bible professor at Wheaton College, an evangelical school in Illinois.
As Burge?s title implies, his chief concern is fellow evangelicals? uncritical support for whatever Israel does and neglect of Palestinian justice claims.
He focuses hard on the widespread evangelical belief (shared with West Bank settlers and some other Jews) that Israel has a rightful claim to all territory between Egypt and Iraq?s Euphrates River because of God?s land grant in Genesis 15:18.
Burge says the Bible teaches that the gift of the Holy Land never required dispossession of non-Israelites from their homes and lands. In fact, biblical law is notable for giving full rights to non-Israelite neighbors, he says.
He also says in the biblical understanding, the gift of land is conditioned on faithfulness to God, citing for instance God?s words in Deuteronomy 4:25-40 just before the Israelites conquered Canaan. Religious infidelity, God warned, would mean that the nation would be destroyed, the promised land lost and the people scattered among the nations.
Both books are vigorous and interesting, but unlikely to make much of a dent in the End Times audience being built by radio and TV evangelists and popular writers.
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Tom Strange
So that's what this thread comes down to... farting?!!?
I just don't get it... and I was about to post the results of testing Zixar's theories of Solitaire in my attempt to master it...
So, I think instead I'll just invite my friend Exclawonderful out for a snow cone...
P.S. MJandher412: visualize whirrled peas
... big hitter, the lama...
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Mike
sirguessalot,
You wrote: ?The uncommon nature of your declarations has stirred an equally uncommon tempest at the GSC, both of which have helped me to further understand my PFAL/TWI experience. I love this place, and I?m truly glad you came. I have healed greatly.?
I?m glad to hear things are happening.
***
You wrote: ?Like you, I do believe VPW learned things from God and that PFAL is God-breathed. But unlike you, I believe that God breathes more frequently than this, especially AFTER Pentecost.?
I agree that Pentecost was a breakthrough and that God can get much more of His guidance to us by the 3 revelation manifestations. However, it might be noted that even after Pentecost, God still had a hard time getting the big revelations through to Peter and the apostles. It took years for God to find one man who was capable of believing that far, and 5-senses wise he was a ringer. Even after Paul believed it still took a generation to get it through to Peter. Then it was lost again for a couple more millennia.
The kind of revelation that Pentecost made more available was the everyday specific kind of thing like try out for that job, and don?t speed through that green light. But for new or lost doctrine to get through, more than Pentecost is needed. The greatness of God?s Word is too big for an ordinary human to believe all alone to receive, without any company believing with him. If it?s not in writing (and gold edged do help) then VERY few people are able to believe a direct revelation that is extremely anti-tradition. God may breath out, but how many of us can be the first to breath it in?
***
You wrote: ?And that VPW?s style of contribution is but a drop in the ocean. And that his errors did affect his ability to give. But God does make lemonade out of lemons. Thus, we can learn from PFAL.?
I agree that his style may be less than the coolest Hollywood has to offer. But the end product, the PFAL writings, are unique. Sure Dr?s flesh errors and idiocy made it less efficient for him and more complicated for us, but Dr?s phase is over for this project. His contribution is done, and God got His Word into written form. Now the spotlight is on us as we learn to recognize this Word and run with it.
***
You wrote: ?If you mean that the TVT had lost most of its fun by then, I would agree. __ But if you mean that no one could learn as much from PFAL after the 80?s (except what you have learned, of course), you contradict yourself greatly, and I think YOU actually cut yourself off from a heap of understanding that is available from PFAL.?
I do NOT mean to say ?that no one can learn as much from PFAL after the 80?s.? I have mentioned that people who have not seen the functioning years of the early ministry have less natural motivation to slog through the cult fears, sex scandals, etc. It takes a lot of determination to not respond to the tug of these natural forces, and people who never knew Dr?s good sides or the good years of the ministry may be less inclined to learn from PFAL. I treasure the exceptions to this seemingly practical rule of thumb.
***
You wrote: ?Besides, if corrupt TVT can really stop God from teaching the meek, what does that say about God?s ability and willingness? Not much, I?d say, which is again, one of my major beefs with you.?
I?d say it?s not God?s fault. The reason the TVT can stop PEOPLE (not stop God) is because people too often have more than one desire they're juggling. The desire to know God is in there along with the desire to be respected by people. God is invisible and people are visible, so sometimes it?s the people ball that gets caught in when situations get tight.
God?s willingness and ability must operate within His willingness and ability to honor all the rest of His laws.
***
You wrote: ?It bothers me how you presume to know what everyone experienced in TWI better than they themselves. And I?m sure this cuts many to the bone.?
I?m generally careful in blanket accusations.
I think it?s safe to say that none of us learned all nine all the time, even though I realize all nine DID get operated once in a while.
I think it?s safe to say that none of us REALLY mastered PFAL, that?s mastered it in our SPIRITUAL understanding, even though many did an admirable job in picking up many research techniques that turned out to be plenty powerful for working many scriptures.
I think it?s safe to say that there were a lot of things that Dr said in his last years that few were paying close attention to, and that most of us allowed many things to slip by us that he said in those last years. I don?t think it should be looked at as an ego trip of mine when I say I found these things. I WANTED to find them, while few others did. I spent the time to find these things, and it took years.
Outside of those three things, there are not too many more you could add to your list of bone cutters.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 21, 2003 at 19:50.]
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Tom Strange
I was looking at the lyrics to "the last trip to Tulsa" (one of the all time great songs if I do say so)... look at this verse:
Well, I was driving down the freeway when my car ran out of gas,
Pulled over to the station but I was afraid to ask,
The servicemen were yellow and the gasoline was green,
Although I knew I couldn't I thought that I was gonna scream,
That was on my last trip to Tulsa just before the snow,
If you ever need a ride there be sure to let me know.
Was this revelational snow that Neil Young was talking about? Did he see the same snow the veepee did?
I think this is something far more sinister than a coincidence... how many other songs mention "snow" in Tulsa? hmmmm???
Makes you think doesn't it...
... big hitter, the lama...
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Mike
Rafael,
You wrote: "I'll post it in this space only if Mike grants permission. I consider it off topic.?
Keeping this thread on topic has proved to be impossible. At this point I?m thankful for how often we just bring it back to topic. Please don?t let me interfere with full communications.
************************************************************
def59,
You wrote about alternative models to the Gathering Togerther. In all these years, your post is only the second I?ve seen to go against the very popular ?left behind? kind of scenario. I?m slowly becoming aware of those who have not embraced this scenario.
I remember seeing a poster in the 70?s of the supposed situation, with cars careening off the freeway, each one with a broken windshield near the steering wheel, and such. My guts impression was one of ?I could do better than that? in the sense of how decent and in order the Gathering Together could be carried out. I imagined angels encountering the drivers of those cars and being distracted or re-routed to avoid crashes. The instantaneous synchronization of everybody leaving at once seemed unnecessary, and if God had to wait a few minutes for one car to stop, I didn?t see anyone complaining.
These were early objections I had to what I called the ?Broken Windshield? model of the gathering. I hardly ever voiced them, but I felt there was something wrong about a lot of the ?left behind? theology. When I came back to PFAL one of the first things I learned was that our TVT understanding of the gathering was very sketchy.
One of the biggest revisions I?ve done in my understanding of the Gathering Together is to watch closely the difference between the Natural/Factual and the Spiritual/Divine. As this subject has grown in my mind and in my PFAL reading, the ?left behind? theology looks more and more childish in it?s 5-senses orientation.
As this thread wraps up these loose ends, I want to go into this subject much deeper.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 21, 2003 at 19:51.]
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karmicdebt
Thanks for the heads up. I'll get my boots on...
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Mike
karmicdebt,
You mean you haven't had them on all this time?
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WordWolf
Mike,
are you saying that, in all the time you were
in twi, and supposedly, exposed to other
Christians' doctrines after that, you have NOT
experienced intelligent discussions on what you
called the "Broken Windshield" scenario?
I heard discussions about that when I was IN,
and there are plenty of discussions of the
subject by Christians all over the world, let
alone all over the net.
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Mike
WordWolf,
Yes, I?m saying that I heard almost no discussion other than the Broken Windshield model.
Most of my 70?s discussions with denominational types centered on the trinity and SIT. I figured we agreed on the Gathering Together (except for the pre-wrath post wrath stuff) already, and it seldom came up on their accord. Within the ministry I focused much of my discussion on how to get my life together, more discipline, more believing, more love, etc. My philosophy on the Gathering was a little uncomfortable. The windshields bothered me, and there were other things about it seemed fishy. I figured it was something wrong with me, and I?d just have to get over it. I never witnessed details of the Gathering to any non-Christians out of this discomfort.
Back then, my philosophy was that Jesus Christ was going to be personally present when it all took place, so I figured he?d set things straight then. I used to call it boot camp in the sky, and I was happy not thinking about it too much until it happened.
After the 80?s ministry meltdown my focus was on investigating what went wrong. I did sample a bunch of churches for fellowship, but eventually felt my calling was to work with and for grads. I get along with other Christians fine, and always have (after learning righteous dodging on trinity matters) but I also see that they have very little drive to learn all nine all the time. Even grads, lots of them, have been talked out of that one.
I?ve not gone to the internet for general discussion at all. In the information overload age it seems that we are constantly deciding what we don?t have time for.
I did see a thread here at GS a few years ago on the Return and everyone?s expectations as to how it will be. I saved that thread, and will have to go back to it soon. Maybe I?ll see some theories there on the Pauli Exclusion principle being revoked and an oozing through windshields offered as a better model.
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mj412
I think the point was the final Fart Tom.
Petard has been mastered only by Mike as far a I can read, I just apply discipline in mastering the instructions yet indeed the process remains ubiquitously hidden .
and the other thing is I do not think lamas play base ball at all .
sure go ahead you can chose who gets to eat snow cones and who doesnt does that mean I am less loved by the blue coocunuts? NO! I say it does not. sounds like your a respector of blue coconuts to me.
I just wanted to say my weekend was so great I now realize even if the code word whilred peas is used against me I can stand , yes I can I can see the tiny litle blender in my head with green peas going around in circles and know I can stay on the positive side of life.
I tried the point and shoot method of worship ex and I got the petard word it doesnt seem to work for the enitre day as an inspration, so I used the pull my finger method along with it and it was all good! thank you for sharing such insight.
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mj412
Ginger Tea
Only speaking for myself here doll but I got to tell ya , I am really beginning to see your point about how someone can misplace their hostilities and be antagonistic about anothers beliefs whether they agree or not .
yep clearly you have shown us that truth !
I will also take your pearl of wisdom for MIke about the tearing down others!
thanks agian!
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Mike
Ladies, ladies,
We can all be friends here. There's lots of very cool things to discuss regarding the goodness of God and how He has blessed us and is blessing us.
Take mud wrestling for example...
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sirguessalot
Ginger, I am not sure what you are implying. Honestly.
Or to whom you are implying it?at.
;)-->
Its like you are writing in some sort of code, or beatin around the bush.
Maybe I just aint payin well enough attention.
;)-->
God knows my writing comes out more cryptic than I like.
So, am I a SLOB, a farter, or a nasty person?
I greatly respect your insight, but just don?t happen to understand what your insight is at the moment.
Peace,
Todd
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sirguessalot
Good evening/morning, Mike.
I don?t believe that you, personally, have the ability to know this.
Yet, you wrote, towards the end of your response:
What is this 'not-even-once-in-2-millennia' statement but a very broad and loose blanket accusation? Its like you are accusing everyone in the body of Christ of two millenia of spiritual inferiority.
That?s a tough sell, even by biblical standards. I say again, that no one in the old testament ever claimed such a lengthy spiritual drought.
Another blanket accusation that you are supposedly generally careful in?
And another cut to the bone for those (like me) who cherish what I learned via PFAL, particularly in the availability of direct revelation and its inherent nature of being anti-tradition.
Besides, are you actually saying that YOU know who and/or how many people are able to believe a direct revelation in 2k years of history?
"VERY few" is still a few.
So, who are they, since you seem to know that there are indeed a few?
What do you mean, ?the first to breathe in??
There were 12 on Pentecost who were all the first to breathe in, in one regard. And the first to truly breathe in things such as the revelation of the mystery of Christ in you was Paul.
I honestly don?t understand what you are implying with your rhetorical question, so I?ll let you explain when you get a chance.
I?ll agree (in part), but even then, what does being unique signify, spiritually?
Besides, are you implying that I value the cool Hollywood style over spiritual wisdom?
No argument here. Seems par for the course when it comes to most spiritual teachers. Though I do believe that some have been wiser than VPW to avoid such inefficiencies and complications when conveying spiritual matters. Wisdom and moderation are spiritual principles, especially of ministers, it seems.
huh? (blink?blink)
We might have to just let these statements of yours hit the wind and fly, cuz it just seems like nothing but your general and oft-repeated statement of beliefs.
Fine. But in the midst of all our reasoning, it seems kinda redundant and out of place. I think most everyone already knows what it is that you believe.
I know. I know. But you DO seem to be saying that YOU know (by revelation or superior data or something) that no one has learned as much from PFAL after the 80s. Or that no one could possibly have.
But is ?less natural motivation? really a guarantee of the negative outcome?
Or just a fear of yours?
Do you actually think that because you think everyone in a certain category is inclined to be lazy, that everyone in that category will therefore be lazy, without exception? (yeah, my wording is intentional)
Mike, I honestly feel we could learn more from each other were you not so clumsy with your presumptions about everyone else?s ability and willingness and spirituallity. People have risen up and believed against all odds, ya know. The bible is full of stories about em.
So, what? No one has "a lot of determination?"
And again, does being among the "less inclined" spell certain spiritual doom?
Besides, what if all I knew of were the ?good years,? and had no cult fears, or knew of no sex scandals, and studied bigtime in meekness and isolation from corrupt TVT for 5 years?
Mike, I got what VPW was teaching.
And all I had were his written words.
I never met him in the flesh.
I never knew him in the flesh.
And as I mentioned before, my dearest friends were OLGs, many of them from single-digit Corps who came back to PFAL but did not serve in leadership capacity any more. They just shared with me their WISDOM from ?the good old days? as loving friends are known to do. They were content to serve alongside me outside of the Corps structure.
This is where you could have fooled me, bigtime!
Cuz I consider myself an exception, even according to your "seemingly practical rule of thumb."
But in both public and private, you have rejected my fellowship, unless it is on YOUR terms. (And the fellowship of others here, too, it seems. But I can only speak for myself.)
Of course. Its Job?s fault. Its Satan?s fault. It?s Eve?s fault. Its TVT?s fault. Its OLG?s fault. etc? But we've already played around here before to no avail. Call it a stalemate, I guess.
IMO, blame and guilt are of the spirit of anti-Christ anyway. Period.
And one of the oldest tricks and strongest forces in the book.
They build fear, which, of course, defeats the promises of God.
Again with what seems like a foolish presumption that if people are inclined to fall for the trick, then they must have fallen for the trick?
Am I misunderstanding you or something? I hope so. Cuz it speaks poorly of your opinion of other people in general.
An OLG, whom I knew like a brother and worked and served with, recalled how VPW confronted him once. This OLG was coming down on people at HQ for their lack of believing, and VPW just asked him something like, ?What do you think of people in general?? in order to reprove him. That was what was defeating this OLG?s believing. He told me how he then learned from VPW's correction how his own overall view of the ability and willingness in his brothers and sisters in Christ was skewed by his impatience and the senses results, and how his own fear of them failing defeated his ability to lead them.
This OLG told me of another time when one of his Corps brothers didn?t want to work, and so sat out. The OLG was a bit ticked, but VPW told him to let the guy sit and watch the rest of us work, and then enjoy the fellowship and reward of serving together. He said something like "he?ll get it on his own time. We just have to give him something that he?ll get. And that?s serving."
Of course, I am paraphrasing a paraphrased lesson, but the wisdom was there, and stuck with me. I can work with almost anyone now.
But this brings me to a big reason why I think so many of your antagonists have you in perpetual defense of your corner. Its like you have a sharp stick in your hand and don?t know it.
Huh?
And I can wrap my mind around some pretty complex paradigms, but this is a doozy. Its like its missing a big piece or something? Or just a spasm of superfluous language. Please explain.
But did you read the next 4 paragraphs you wrote?
Is it really safe for you to say this?
Isn?t it safe to say that you can?t possibly know what everyone has or has not mastered?
Its like you would selectively believe that guys like me merely ?picked up many research techniques? rather than saw consistent spiritual understanding and power in application.
Application was always key for me. And in service.
Otherwise, there was no ultimate profit in what I was doing.
There couldn't be.
Mike, if someone (or group) does master PFAL today, what do you think would it look like? Honestly. Paint me a picture, please.
What if I told you that I did master PFAL, and in doing so, it freed me from the bars of its crib? Would you even try to believe me? Would you even want to try?
I did read your emails on the subject, more than once.
I got something else out of them.
But I got what you were saying too.
So gimme some credit some time, will ya?
I agree. But what about guys like me?
Should you keep yourself from looking at what I?ve told you as an ego trip?
Its like you assume that everyone else suffers from a variety of self-deceptions, then are surprised when people are insulted by it.
And why, in God?s name, do you presume that no one else ever wanted to or wants to find the deeper things of PFAL?
Honestly, how can you be SO damn sure of this that you?ll stand on a thread for months and accuse OLGs of things like spiritual laziness and forgetfulness, which has led to their spiritual deterioration and inferiority?
And then also accuse us non-OLGs (like me) of simply being introduced to PFAL too late to possibly find its true spiritual potential?
Is there now some sort of fate principle in PFAL, which deals people a bad spiritual hand if they were simply born too late?
Why do you so tie God?s hands with your own fears?
Doesn?t God?s willingness and ability far exceed yours and mine when it comes to PFAL?
I contend that none of the three things are spiritually safe for YOU to say in the first place.Besides, why are the bonecutters necessary?
I know, I know. Prophets call people back to the Word, and the Word is good for doctrine, for reproof and for correction. And the reproof can really require some pointed words at times. And men of God are almost always ridiculed and mocked, particularly when they are dishing out the reproof. And so on.
But I think we both know that the response is not what proves a prophet?s salt, right?
---
Mike, is it possible that you have certain fears that keep you yourself from seeing the greater promises of God come to pass?
Is it?
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 22, 2003 at 6:53.]
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sirguessalot
real quick...
Mike, I know you are tight on time with all yer posting, but you really seemed to skip some of the more pertinent points in my prior post. Especially regarding my personal experience with PFAL.
Just pointing it out, cuz I honestly wish you wouldn't do it to this last one too.
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Mike
Todd,
Right now I?m only responding to your short, second post. Your longer one will take a little more time.
I will give it a try to respond to what you think is important, but let me point out that we are getting into that old loop of talking about what we were talking about. I?d rather discuss the details of the Word and what we were taught, instead of dealing with all this back and forth of who?s noble and who?s not, who?s spiritually sharp and who?s not, who?s lazy and who?s not.
Can?t you be satisfied in knowing that my high regard for all grads is frequently manifested by my devoting huge chunks of my time to help in sorting out all of what was what in our TWI experiences? I see grads as very special people, who are very close to the big enchilada.
I?m not trying to insult in any way, shape, or form. I simply observe in my family what was, until fairly recent events, a lack in my own life. I don?t mean to insult by saying to you or any grad that something went wrong with all of us, and this is what it was, so let?s fix it.
If I?m wrong in my observation, then those who know this for sure can excuse themselves from reading my posts. There are those who do this. If my wrong opinion bothers you and you feel I?m on an ego trip, then what can be done about it? Talk me out of it? Surely by now you know that?s not going to happen.
I think that many here who spend the time and effort to counter my posts know deep inside that there is something ringing true in what I write. This is probably an uncomfortable feeling for two reasons. One is the confusion and tangled mess that the TVT-PFAL got convoluted into. Even if this confusion factor was minimized, there?s the chagrin of seeing that we all seem to have fallen for 3 out of the 4 categories mentioned in the parable of the Sower and the Seed. This is not easy to face. No one wants to think that they made a systematic set of errors over the course of a decade or two or three.
Actually, when all the dust settles and confusion subsides due to the separation of PFAL from TVT, and when we become re-familiarization with the text, then I think that we will all face an exhilarating choice. We will be able to compare two scenarios of where we were wrong.
One is that our initial acceptance of PFAL was wrong, and then the rejection of it, TWI, and TVT are correct. This is the current model of many here.
The other choice is that our initial PFAL experiences were of God, and the subsequent mixing with TVT and rejection was wrong, but now we can come back to PFAL and continue our spiritual growth.
The former is fraught with the frustration that we were duped as kids, and are still victims in one way or another. This choice means that enlightenment is the return to normal, 5-senses, everyday, hum-drum reality with the occasional mild victory over the adversary, a few manifestations operated by us, but a sure win by him in the end. Then someday, some unknown day, God peels us up off the sidewalk and restores us.
The later paints a picture of us as normal humans who were called by God, who answered that call for a time, and then got tricked out of it in the usual ways mentioned in the Sower parable. This choice means a resumption of our answering the call of God to effect something that will benefit all mankind now.
One way or another, there?s a failure to deal with. Please don?t be offended if I say ?this here? is specifically where the error lies and not "that there", and this here error is easy to correct. Come back to PFAL and master it. As we get into the books more, and less into who?s got what kind of ego trip cooking, then we will be able to see our calling again.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 22, 2003 at 12:00.]
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Tom Strange
MissGT: I don't understand either... in your post:
SLOBS: are you yelling "SLOBS!" at any or all of us? if so, why? is it because we sometimes misspell? (for there is no way for you to know if we miss-spill, or are bad housekeepers).
Farters: (at least no yelling here) we all are probably guilty of that, even you women! Even though I thought a petard was a sort of spear-like thingie...
Nasty People: different folks here do get a little "worked up", but it appears as if it's flowing both ways...
I'm just wondering... is there anything I can do for you? would you like a snow cone? (your choice of flavor, my treat)
MJandher241: the lama is a golfer, everyone is free to partake of whatever flavor snow cone they wish, and whirled peas is up to each and every one of us...
... big hitter, the lama...
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Mike
Tom,
I too thought a petard was a sword-like thing. We're all learning here.
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WordWolf
Mike,
So, you quoted Hamlet's "hoist on your own
petard" line without reading it in the context?
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are a trap laid for
Hamlet. When the 3 of them arrive in England,
they are to hand a message to the King of
England-"Kill Prince Hamlet. Love, Claudius,
King of Denmark."
Hamlet outsmarts them, and plans on using their
own package to catch Rosencrantz and
Guildenstern instead of himself. That's what he
meant by saying he would "delve an inch deeper,
and blow them at the moon." Their own 'petard'
(landmine) would blow up in their faces.
Hamlet succeeds, too. He switches their message
for one that reads "Kill Rosencrantz and
Guildenstern. Love, Claudius, King of Denmark".
Thus, they are hoist on their own petard.
Just thought someone somewhere would like the
context of the quote.
(from William Shakespeare's "Hamlet".)
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sirguessalot
I AM trying to discuss the details of the Word, and WHAT WE WERE TAUGHT.
How come you miss this?
And I never mentioned nobility. NOT ONCE.
And its YOU who initiated discussion of who's sharp and whose lazy.
In fact, it has been foundational to your message to the GSC.
So stop trying to pull my leg on this.
No.
Cuz you aint the guy to sort out everyone else's experience.
You might have a knack, and some truly amazing gifts...
But you have missed some important things.
There are things you CANNOT know, but continue to claim to know without substance.
Welcome to the body of Christ, pal.
Wow! That's it, huh? If I know yer wrong about something, then just excuse myself from reading further? Go away and don't bother debating the issues with you?
Look, I value something as much as you do, in a different way, and this includes your fellowship, but the closer I try to get, the more of a thumbsucking spiritual chickensh!t you SEEM to become. Tho I?m willing to bet that its not the real you.
Doesn?t this mean anything to you?
Yer right. I should know by now that no one can talk you out of your ego trip.
;)-->
Be honest and just tell me to go away, Mike. And I will. Promise.
But know that I AM still interested in discussing things PFAL with you, and probably more than anyone else I know.
Do you even give a sh!t why?
Cuz I doubt you can know without my input.
Clue: it has nothing to do with ego or blame or guilt or fear.
---
re: The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW
"The greatness of the Power for Abundant Living Class is not in what I say, but in the greatness behind what I say." VPW
This is why I think mastery of PFAL does not require mastery in the letter of it. But mastery of the greatness behind it. When you master what is BEHIND PFAL, it become second nature and takes you to a higher place, quite beyond what is written in PFAL. Beyond even what VPW thought he had.
So I think we are on the same track, but ending up in different places.
Fine with me.
But I don't think PFAL is the only revelation that will do this.
It just happened to be the one revelation that did it for me.
And I WILL speak for myself on this.
Cuz I?ve seen more, too.
If you don?t even want to consider possibilities I?ve mentioned in an mutual and honest manner, fine. But please, be clearer than you have. Cuz you keep saying you DO want to consider unexplored possibilities of PFAL. Then you yank the opportunity away. This is foul.
Just know that I HAVE deeply considered what you?ve written to me in private and public. And my mind has changed about quite a few things because of it. But you ain't playing by yer own rules. And this too is foul and hurtful and seems quite selfish.
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 22, 2003 at 15:28.]
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