So far it looks like we have a division of the labor here. Most of you folks want to work on emphasizing the negative aspects of Dr?s actions, which you only have fading memories of, and I?ll work on emphasizing the positives, which we have a record of.
That sounds fair. This is somewhat the role RG had suggested I play.
Mike posted....Most of you folks want to work on emphasizing the negative aspects of Dr?s actions, which you only have fading memories of, and I?ll work on emphasizing the positives, which we have a record of.
Mike you are an incredibly insensitive bast*rd!
Do yo really think that sexual assault becomes a fading memory? Read a different book. As*hole!
You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but alas you are too caught up in your delusion to stop taking hostages as you move the Word of Wierwille.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
quote:Stuck in the 70's? - Hardly. Mike's theories were developed witihin the last few years.
I wasn't addressing Mike's theories, but rather his mania. Of course he expects people to RE-ACT much the same way, because he is presenting what he considerers: "new data, new revelation, hidden meanings, yada, yada, yada".
But wasn't the Word of God being taught like it hadn't been taught since the 1st century, etc. typically the same thing? A bunch of new information, new revelation, etc. that started off all the 1970's "TWI/PFAL-Beatlemania" to begin with? I think so.
Mike is stuck in the '70s because he believes if he brings up all this new data, hidden meanings, etc., he thinks people (mainly old PFAL grads) will become awe-struck once again and pick right back up with the same old "PFAL-mania" just like it happened in the 70s.
SO YES. MIKE IS STILL STUCK BACK IN THE 1970's TWI/PFAL-BEATLEMANIA! Thank God some of us are not, which for most of us it only makes his (very long) message all the more tiring than it does inspiring.
quote:So far it looks like we have a division of the labor here. Most of you folks want to work on emphasizing the negative aspects of Dr?s actions, which you only have fading memories of, and I?ll work on emphasizing the positives, which we have a record of.
Only fading memories? Is that what they are Mike? Ditto to what Karmicdebt said. That is truly insensitive.
The way the human brain works is ALL memories fade. It?s designed that way by God. In this way, after Christ?s Appearing we can eventually forget all of this ?former? life. It?s a promise in the Word.
All memories fade. HOWEVER, before they disappear completely, they can be refreshed. Then they?re back, again, only to begin fading again, until the next refresh.
The accuracy of the refresh is very crucial.
One way a memory is refreshed is by "remembering" it, by bringing it up, and living through it again. It's refreshed by thinking about it, talking about it, and writing about it, and reading about it.
So, if the refresh is made from the memory itself, a somewhat faded and somewhat degraded memory, then the refresh strengthens the inaccuracies that were introduced during the degrading. Bringing up old memories can actually distort them slightly. No matter how accurate a memory FEELS, that feeling is no guarantee for accuracy. EVERY slight distortion in memory feels totally accurate. Doing scientific tests on your own memory can be most astounding, when in a controlled environment, a degraded memory is deliberately produced and then confronted. I?ve done this, and the effect leaves the experimenter speechless.
Police know this and train to overcome these normal kinds of memory distortions, that ALL humans face as a part of life. Law schools train lawyers to exploit these foibles of humanity. They all know that multiple witnesses of the same event can EASILY have radically different stories as to what happened. Often the sequences are different, one person says ABC happened in that order, and another says it was ACB. When it?s an emotion charged event, then even more distortions are expected.
But if the refresh is made from the ORIGINAL SOURCE of the memory, then not only is amplitude refreshed, so is the accuracy.
In my original post, the huge long lying list, I included two words I made up during those 7 years I hung out with the brain scientists. The two words were "memnot" which is a planted false memory, and "memrot" which is a degraded memory.
The reason I urge coming back to the PFAL record is because it?s the ORIGINAL SOURCE of our good memories.
The reason I urge we forget the past bad memories is because God says it?s a good idea, and because we all have distorted accuracy in those memories, so they are unworkable, now, after 20 years. There was lots of negative emotion, lots of time, and little to no original source refresh.
When a past non-repeatable, and therefore non-accurately refreshable, memory is constantly refreshed under the degrading influence of repeatedly accompanying emotion, then that memory?s accuracy declines faster.
?Venting? is useful in early stages of dealing with trauma, so that things can be sorted out and then eventually settled down. But continually bringing up old bad memories cannot have the same good effects as focusing on the presently available and active relationship and fellowship with the real Jesus Christ.
I suggest we turn the thread?s attention to him, because he?s here.
.
.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 17, 2003 at 1:58.]
[This message was edited by Mike on April 17, 2003 at 2:09.]
Mike...Memories live in your tissues- your very body...Ever hear of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? Things can trigger the reoccurance of memories...a scent, a phrase, a location. You just don't get it and you don't care. You are hurting people and pushing buttons. The more you post the more defenders you lose because more of your heart is exposed. And it's not pretty. We all met you before and can see you a mile off. It was our trauma that made us wiser...
The memory of someone who was drugged and raped by the great doctor may be accurate at first. But as time goes by the memory "fades". It becomes less accurate each time it is refreseh from memory or by recounting the story because it cannot be refreshed by the original source. It should not be recounted or told to others, because it will only become more inaccurate - and we can't have that now can we? So eventually, after a period of time, the memory of being drugged and raped becomes so "faded" and/or inaccurate that it must be totally discounted, glossed over, and/or denied that it ever happened. As the memory fades so does the evil act itself - Then one day voila! - It never happened.
But on the other hand, if something the great doctor said or wrote is recorded on tape, video or book, then the fact that it is "recorded" in one of these media makes it true and reliable - never mind that his actions did not necessarily follow his words. The actions that folks recall are merely inaccurate, faded memories and must not be brought into the analysis. Only "recorded" words should be used, because being "recorded", not in faded, unreliabe memories of eye witnesses, but in a book, tape or video, they therefore must be true and accurate.
thats sounds just like so many would say to a child who says something happened sexualy with an adult...or even to another adult
child protectives is a new idea in America you know and still not very good at the root cause of abuse.
It isnt just those with the capacity to harm an innocent person it is those unwillingly to hear of it .
"Do not ever say that".
"your wrong"
"we do not talk about those things in this house"
"who ever told you that is talking from the devil"
"shut up"
"how can you say such a thing about someone we love so very much?"
"it doesnt matter do not tell anyone eles".
'it will be ok just keep it in the family.
" we love one another "
"think of all the trouble it would cause , just forget about it and move on"
"he/she didnt mean to hurt you, Im sure you did something to provoke it".
Mike you have heard these words or words like them .
abuse breeds shame . a shame so powerful it does not allow you to speak anymore , the memory doesnt fade it goes to a diferent place , a place of great pain and allows you to express your feelings in the same manner you were so wrongly taught and never allowed to say hurt you.
it breeds denial it never happened at all if no one metions it again. It never happened to you, then you may never have repeated the same behaviour if you can deny it happened if you can deny it hurt you than it never can hurt the one you abuse.
that is sexual abuse , the crime is in being silent, the very victims who are never heard are the ones who either die or repeat offending in a behaviour they know as the only honest source of love they have ever known.
Rape from a friend goes the same way, you lose by talking,your self resect, you lose your friends your community it appears to be easier to just not metion it and pretend it was not all that wrong .
it effects your whole life in a very negative way... it never goes away, you base your decisions on how and what happened.
You join a cult that has a lock box and feel you have found the one who understands you ...
Mike did vpw abuse you sexualy? I have read some great authors I really admire yet i have never had such strong feelings as you do for vpw.
sexual victims need to speak . they are the only defense agaist the crime of silence.
no one is guilty of wrong if they didnt know of it are they ??? so just shut up and do not drag me into a mess..
many will tell you to shut up go away call you a whore or a rumor monger, I should think it is those who can not speak or or who lost the ability to say anything that need to hear it the most.
please allow them to be heard. allow them to know it can be said and shame will be useless.
for everyone. it is the only way to stop abuse.
the only way.
Mike you do not want to hear about the sexual abuse from vpw, so you try to silence those who speak on it by redirecting it back to pfal.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
So far it looks like we have a division of the labor here. Most of you folks want to work on emphasizing the negative aspects of Dr?s actions, which you only have fading memories of, and I?ll work on emphasizing the positives, which we have a record of.
That sounds fair. This is somewhat the role RG had suggested I play.
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excathedra
just renew your mind !!!!!
;)-->
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Mike
Ouch! I used to go to Catholic school, and the memory of knuckles being cracked with rulers fit right in with your flying nun icon.
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Mike
Well, I just got home, but am leaving again soon. When I return we can get into some of today?s posts. Later.
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karmicdebt
Mike posted....Most of you folks want to work on emphasizing the negative aspects of Dr?s actions, which you only have fading memories of, and I?ll work on emphasizing the positives, which we have a record of.
Mike you are an incredibly insensitive bast*rd!
Do yo really think that sexual assault becomes a fading memory? Read a different book. As*hole!
You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but alas you are too caught up in your delusion to stop taking hostages as you move the Word of Wierwille.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss
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mj412
no words can be found to express my feelings
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mj412
well that worked karmicdebt, thank you .
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excathedra
thank you dear karmic. i never read that mike said that
2true, not a fading memory at all
**
mike, maybe you need to do some soul searching
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excathedra
ok i see he was posting when i was
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excathedra
and the fact that RG (i assume you mean reserach geek) suggested whatever....... means nothing to me
no disrespect intended
just honestly how i feel
that ohio outfit has its followers, maybe you should move, dear mike
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Zixar
He's dropped Research Geek's name before, even claimed to be him at one point. I don't believe he's even talked to the man.
Just one more ludicrous statement he can't sell...
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What The Hay
I wasn't addressing Mike's theories, but rather his mania. Of course he expects people to RE-ACT much the same way, because he is presenting what he considerers: "new data, new revelation, hidden meanings, yada, yada, yada".
But wasn't the Word of God being taught like it hadn't been taught since the 1st century, etc. typically the same thing? A bunch of new information, new revelation, etc. that started off all the 1970's "TWI/PFAL-Beatlemania" to begin with? I think so.
Mike is stuck in the '70s because he believes if he brings up all this new data, hidden meanings, etc., he thinks people (mainly old PFAL grads) will become awe-struck once again and pick right back up with the same old "PFAL-mania" just like it happened in the 70s.
SO YES. MIKE IS STILL STUCK BACK IN THE 1970's TWI/PFAL-BEATLEMANIA! Thank God some of us are not, which for most of us it only makes his (very long) message all the more tiring than it does inspiring.
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Goey
Mike Posted:
Only fading memories? Is that what they are Mike? Ditto to what Karmicdebt said. That is truly insensitive.
Goey
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Zixar
Where's Martin Luther when you need him? I'm sure he could find another 95 Theses to write on Mike's idolatry and nail them to his forehead.
If you can find a twelvepenny nail, I'll spring for the hammer, Marty!
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Mike
The way the human brain works is ALL memories fade. It?s designed that way by God. In this way, after Christ?s Appearing we can eventually forget all of this ?former? life. It?s a promise in the Word.
All memories fade. HOWEVER, before they disappear completely, they can be refreshed. Then they?re back, again, only to begin fading again, until the next refresh.
The accuracy of the refresh is very crucial.
One way a memory is refreshed is by "remembering" it, by bringing it up, and living through it again. It's refreshed by thinking about it, talking about it, and writing about it, and reading about it.
********************************************************
All memories not only fade in amplitude or strength, but they also degrade in accuracy between refreshes.
********************************************************
If the refresh is made from the memory itself, it?s not as accurate later on.
If the refresh is made from the original source, it?s MUCH more accurate later on.
********************************************************
So, if the refresh is made from the memory itself, a somewhat faded and somewhat degraded memory, then the refresh strengthens the inaccuracies that were introduced during the degrading. Bringing up old memories can actually distort them slightly. No matter how accurate a memory FEELS, that feeling is no guarantee for accuracy. EVERY slight distortion in memory feels totally accurate. Doing scientific tests on your own memory can be most astounding, when in a controlled environment, a degraded memory is deliberately produced and then confronted. I?ve done this, and the effect leaves the experimenter speechless.
Police know this and train to overcome these normal kinds of memory distortions, that ALL humans face as a part of life. Law schools train lawyers to exploit these foibles of humanity. They all know that multiple witnesses of the same event can EASILY have radically different stories as to what happened. Often the sequences are different, one person says ABC happened in that order, and another says it was ACB. When it?s an emotion charged event, then even more distortions are expected.
But if the refresh is made from the ORIGINAL SOURCE of the memory, then not only is amplitude refreshed, so is the accuracy.
********************************************************
In my original post, the huge long lying list, I included two words I made up during those 7 years I hung out with the brain scientists. The two words were "memnot" which is a planted false memory, and "memrot" which is a degraded memory.
********************************************************
The reason I urge coming back to the PFAL record is because it?s the ORIGINAL SOURCE of our good memories.
The reason I urge we forget the past bad memories is because God says it?s a good idea, and because we all have distorted accuracy in those memories, so they are unworkable, now, after 20 years. There was lots of negative emotion, lots of time, and little to no original source refresh.
When a past non-repeatable, and therefore non-accurately refreshable, memory is constantly refreshed under the degrading influence of repeatedly accompanying emotion, then that memory?s accuracy declines faster.
?Venting? is useful in early stages of dealing with trauma, so that things can be sorted out and then eventually settled down. But continually bringing up old bad memories cannot have the same good effects as focusing on the presently available and active relationship and fellowship with the real Jesus Christ.
I suggest we turn the thread?s attention to him, because he?s here.
.
.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 17, 2003 at 1:58.]
[This message was edited by Mike on April 17, 2003 at 2:09.]
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WordWolf
ALL of us are quoting from "fading memories"?
Guess you've missed a LOT of threads. A lot of
us post with quotes directly from book or
tape, with citations.
If we're quoting word-for-word from a source
directly in front of our noses, how then could
it be a "fading memory"?
---------------------------------
No, wait, I know-
anything that shows vpw as unfit somehow is
unreliable. Either it's a deliberate lie or
forgery, or the frame of mind of the reader
somehow invalidates a direct quote, or it's
a misquote, or something. Whatever it is,
anything that depicts vpw as somehow tainted
must be suppressed, ignored or somehow
discounted. No matter who said it, or how much
documentation supports it, it must NOT be true,
since that would invalidate vpw as the
MOGFOT.
So. direct quotes become "fading memories."
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alfakat
so Mike... JC, Present, or...Absent???? which is it??? PFAL has the answer and it is??????
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karmicdebt
Mike...Memories live in your tissues- your very body...Ever hear of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? Things can trigger the reoccurance of memories...a scent, a phrase, a location. You just don't get it and you don't care. You are hurting people and pushing buttons. The more you post the more defenders you lose because more of your heart is exposed. And it's not pretty. We all met you before and can see you a mile off. It was our trauma that made us wiser...
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Goey
So Mike, let's see if I got this right.
The memory of someone who was drugged and raped by the great doctor may be accurate at first. But as time goes by the memory "fades". It becomes less accurate each time it is refreseh from memory or by recounting the story because it cannot be refreshed by the original source. It should not be recounted or told to others, because it will only become more inaccurate - and we can't have that now can we? So eventually, after a period of time, the memory of being drugged and raped becomes so "faded" and/or inaccurate that it must be totally discounted, glossed over, and/or denied that it ever happened. As the memory fades so does the evil act itself - Then one day voila! - It never happened.
But on the other hand, if something the great doctor said or wrote is recorded on tape, video or book, then the fact that it is "recorded" in one of these media makes it true and reliable - never mind that his actions did not necessarily follow his words. The actions that folks recall are merely inaccurate, faded memories and must not be brought into the analysis. Only "recorded" words should be used, because being "recorded", not in faded, unreliabe memories of eye witnesses, but in a book, tape or video, they therefore must be true and accurate.
It that how it works master Mike?
Goey
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Mike
Here?s how it works: you become what you look at.
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Zixar
..... I've stared at a computer monitor for 8-12 hours a day for the past fifteen years, and I can't shoot a beam of electrons out of my eyes yet.
Take a hike, Mike. I'm tired of looking at you and sure as hell don't want to become you.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Mike
alfakat,
What's YOUR theology on the presence of Jesus Christ? Do you have his phone number?
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Mike
Zixar,
I'll soon be taking a hike right into this thread's topic, and in fact, I can do that right now.
The statement I made was: "you become what you look at."
To better inform you on becoming the object that you focus on, the "object" I had in mind was spiritual, not natural.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 17, 2003 at 12:27.]
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mj412
thats sounds just like so many would say to a child who says something happened sexualy with an adult...or even to another adult
child protectives is a new idea in America you know and still not very good at the root cause of abuse.
It isnt just those with the capacity to harm an innocent person it is those unwillingly to hear of it .
"Do not ever say that".
"your wrong"
"we do not talk about those things in this house"
"who ever told you that is talking from the devil"
"shut up"
"how can you say such a thing about someone we love so very much?"
"it doesnt matter do not tell anyone eles".
'it will be ok just keep it in the family.
" we love one another "
"think of all the trouble it would cause , just forget about it and move on"
"he/she didnt mean to hurt you, Im sure you did something to provoke it".
Mike you have heard these words or words like them .
abuse breeds shame . a shame so powerful it does not allow you to speak anymore , the memory doesnt fade it goes to a diferent place , a place of great pain and allows you to express your feelings in the same manner you were so wrongly taught and never allowed to say hurt you.
it breeds denial it never happened at all if no one metions it again. It never happened to you, then you may never have repeated the same behaviour if you can deny it happened if you can deny it hurt you than it never can hurt the one you abuse.
that is sexual abuse , the crime is in being silent, the very victims who are never heard are the ones who either die or repeat offending in a behaviour they know as the only honest source of love they have ever known.
Rape from a friend goes the same way, you lose by talking,your self resect, you lose your friends your community it appears to be easier to just not metion it and pretend it was not all that wrong .
it effects your whole life in a very negative way... it never goes away, you base your decisions on how and what happened.
You join a cult that has a lock box and feel you have found the one who understands you ...
Mike did vpw abuse you sexualy? I have read some great authors I really admire yet i have never had such strong feelings as you do for vpw.
sexual victims need to speak . they are the only defense agaist the crime of silence.
no one is guilty of wrong if they didnt know of it are they ??? so just shut up and do not drag me into a mess..
many will tell you to shut up go away call you a whore or a rumor monger, I should think it is those who can not speak or or who lost the ability to say anything that need to hear it the most.
please allow them to be heard. allow them to know it can be said and shame will be useless.
for everyone. it is the only way to stop abuse.
the only way.
Mike you do not want to hear about the sexual abuse from vpw, so you try to silence those who speak on it by redirecting it back to pfal.
How many people can be silenced with that here?
again.
mike it isnt going to work.
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