?I'm in the process of moving and setting up a new branch location at work, so I can't get into a lengthy debate about this, but I just wanted to say that I no longer count the "law of believing" among VP's erroneous doctrines. It may or may not be "unbiblical" (Depends on what Scriptures you look at), but I believe it pretty much works as advertised.
?I don't think fear is a law, in the sense that what you fear absolutely has to happen, but I do believe that what we set our minds on is the second most powerful factor in what we experience. Number one is of course the grace of God.
?If you want to look at some Scritpures that support this, you can of course look at Jesus' statements to his disciples about having faith as a grain of mustard seed and his repeated aknowledgment of the role faith played in the deliverance of those he healed. I am absolutely convinced that someone who is sick cannot be healed without faith that God can and will heal them.
?Likewise someone who believes he cannot succeed will fail. The fact that every successful coach, consultant and motivational speaker preaches this doctrine shouldn't make us suspicious of it and deride it as "unbiblical", but should testify to the universality of this truth. In other words, if it works time and again for athletes, salesmen, and businessmen, there must be something to it.?
I?ve not spent much time on the law of believing yet, and these remarks of your stimulated my interest.
One thing that I?ve noticed about fear is that there is no teaching on ?the fear of a mustard seed? being as powerful as mustard seed believing the promises of God. Job mentions great fear, not mustard seed fear. He went to the temple with this fear DAILY. Reminds me of the Bereans who went to the scriptures daily to cultivate positive believing.
I think that the law of believing AS STATED, or ?as advertised? as the way Jerry put it, is different that that.
?...the LAW of believing, as stated, it means
that a NON-Christian who absolutely believes
their "magic 8-ball..."
I disagree. Dr never taught that random, personal, or 8-ball wishes could be indulged with this law. It?s only by believing a ?promise of God? that Dr teaches a non-christian can operate the law. It?s not just any old random desire that can be believed, it has to be a promise of God, and this is stated over and over in PFAL. When JAL came to SD in the late 80?s and early 90?s one of his first big messages was that Dr was teaching witchcraft, or the use of the law of believing outside of God?s limits. JAL taught people here and around the country that Dr?s teachings omitted God?s promises in the law of believing teaching. I have tapes of him saying this.
I first heard this in 1988, and I was not nearly so much the PFAL fan I am now. I was convinced that there was SOMETHING good about the class, but I couldn?t completely put my finger on it, plus year after year I was getting talked out of it.
JAL started to talk me out of it, because I could relate to what he was saying to a degree. It was here that I discovered the great difference between the TVT and what was actually in the tapes and books. I had been exposed to the TVT where God?s promises figuring into the law of believing had dimmed. JAL was accurately exposing the flaws of the TVT, but inaccurately pinning it on PFAL.
JAL started to talk me out of it in 1988, but that was the year I found that the PFAL audio tapes were being bootlegged by hundreds of other people, kinda like the book situation I mentioned earlier in another post. I listened to the entire class carefully that year and documented several places where Dr DID teach that believing had to be on a promise of God or it was no deal. The next year when JAL came to town I told him of my finds. He was totally uninterested.
Since then I?ve found more.
This, is the second big lie about Dr propounded in those years.
On this thread I?ve posted proof exposing another big lie from those destructive tours. That was the lie that Dr neglected teaching us enough on the lordship of Jesus Christ.
WordWolf, you then continued your distortion of Dr?s teaching with:
?...the LAW of believing, as stated, it means
that a NON-Christian who absolutely believes
their "magic 8-ball" will give them miraculous
healing WILL instantly...?
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa!
Where did you get ?instantly? ???
****
?...the LAW of believing, as stated, it means
that a NON-Christian who absolutely believes
their "magic 8-ball" will give them miraculous
healing WILL instantly heal while a Christian
who is semi-certain will get WORSE results than
the non-Christian.?
Well now, that CAN be the case. Dr does teach how the devil will target semi-knowledgeable semi-believers. It doesn?t HAVE to be the case, though, as Dr also teaches.
****
?As stated, God's irrelevant,
and so is the content of what is believed.?
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
You?re propounding the same lie now. Dr teaches over and over that God?s promises are a MUST in the law of believing, and that it is God who watches over His Word to perform it. Dr always taught that God got the glory for the law of believing, not the believer. The page references are numerous.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 07, 2003 at 21:36.]
Mike.... That is rediculous, I am not *insulting the man you love* ... simply because what you think you *love* never really existed in the first place.
What YOU love is mearly an illusion that has been manufactured......
All *I* have asked you to do is, actually LOOK at galations and READ what the attributes of a man of the spirit are .....then possibly you might understand that vp/twi never WAS what we all thought... what we all believed that we loved...
You tell me to get a life....honey, I HAVE a life...a delightfull life, enriched with family, freinds, home, job, exciting hobbies, community involvement.......Now lets contrast that with where the last 15 or 20 years spent on the mastery of pfal has gotten you.... hmmmmmm?
Lets hear about God`s blessings in YOUR life...
I think that is why we are interested in hearing about any signes and wonders that have been happening as a result of pfal *mastery*
[This message was edited by rascal on July 07, 2003 at 23:00.]
quote:I disagree. Dr never taught that random, personal, or 8-ball wishes could be indulged with this law. It?s only by believing a promise of God that Dr teaches a non-christian can operate the law.
I think you are dead wrong Mike. He most certainly did. For an example, VPW taught that there were a group of men who got together and "believed" for another man to die - someone that they did not like. VPW claimed that their believing killed this man.
Are you gonna tell us now - that these men were believing a promise of God?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Believing on a promise of God is not restricted to written promises. Believing a direct revelation of a promise works too, and it's the case that this kind of believing is really the manifestation of believing.
It may be that what you heard was a group of men believing a direct, unwritten promise of the True God, but I don't know. I'm at a disadvantage of ignorance regarding this story you mention, but if the True God was involved, it'd have to involve more than just not liking the guy, like a great need of life or death such as in a war.
It may be that what you heard was a group of men believing on the counterfeit side with the adversary and helping him in his plans.
I'm at a disadvantage, have not ever heard the story. Are you SURE it's not TVT?
[This message was edited by Mike on July 08, 2003 at 3:20.]
Are you also unfamiliar with the section of PFAL where Wierwille states that if a man believes that he will die within a certain time frame that God would have to rewrite all his laws to not accomodate him?
What promise of God guarantees that people will die if they belive to do so?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
you know... Mike will never come over to the dark side with us... this whole thing is just a trick to get everyone reading the piffle books again to find his errors... HE'S TRICKING US INTO MASTERING THE BOOKS!
Well, I for one will not fall for it... I am not going to open those books... personally, I read this thread for entertainment... although I still believe:
Mike is certifiable
Mike is in need of regular meds
Mike would be happier writing a book...
P.S. Mike, the offer is still open to help you remember the times to take the meds...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on July 08, 2003 at 11:29.]
*Tricking us into mastering the books*..lol BRILLIANT Tom, and I never saw it coming..
Come on Mike, blessings? bennefits? signes ? miracles? What have you got to show that your life of pfal mastery is a *good* thing?
What IS it that mastery gives you that would be attractive to people?
You have had hundreds of people posting at gspot of God`s great deliverance, abundance, healing, and continued blessings in their lives.... why would he DO that if he was dissapointed in our lack of adherance to vp`s doctrine?
You think God is dissapointed? You think he doesn`t like us anymore? We gonna lose most favored believer status?
That whole "believe for it and you'll get it" stuff was pounded into our heads all the time with no restrictions on what you could believe for: a good parking space, a good grade on a test, a better job, winning the Powerball lottery. If your believing is strong enough...
I remember hearing that the only thing you couldn't believe for was something that affected another person's free will, like believing for somebody to fall in love with you.
"Believing is a law, just like the law of gravity."
I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that phrase.
WordWolf - You've done a brilliant job of exposing the truth, that Mike's disrespect and disregard for what's actually written in PFAL is just as monumental as his disrespect and disregard for what's actually written in God's Word!
Mike is hooked on his ACFW spirit. The only things that count are the things it whispers to him. Mike has lost his ability to tell the difference between true and false. He has lost his ability to tell the difference between reason and rationalization.
The "wonderfulness" of "coming back to PFAL" doesn't reside in the occurance of godly signs, miracles and wonders, but rather in the counterfeit jollies Mike's ACFW spirit induces in his mind.
I agree with Tom Strange that meds can ameliorate the symptoms, but Mike won't recover until he comes back to truth, and renounces the lie that PFAL is God-breathed.
quote:It may be that what you heard was a group of men believing a direct, unwritten promise of the True God, but I don't know. I'm at a disadvantage of ignorance regarding this story you mention, but if the True God was involved, it'd have to involve more than just not liking the guy, like a great need of life or death such as in a war.
It may be that what you heard was a group of men believing on the counterfeit side with the adversary and helping him in his plans.
Or it may be that VPW was wrong and that the so-called law of believing as taught by Wierwille was erroneous. Oh, but it could not possibly be that the great VPW was wrong here, could it? You are grapsing at straws here in an attempt to keep VPW's words infallible and keep yourself "right" about everything.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Is "The Law of Believing" now considered "on topic?" If so, I'd like to point out God's Magnified Word, p. 79, in which Wierwille states, "Many operate the law of believing without even having a knowledge of God's Word, for this law of believing works for saint and sinner alike." The plain meaning of the preceding sentence is that the law of believing exists independently of God's Word and, therefore, independently of God's promises.
Dodge. Evade. Distract. Deny. But never admit an error is an error.
Of course, the interesting thing is that Wierwille was often right when he spoke about believing, leading his supporters on this subject to stumble when trying to prove him right. The problem is, as Jerry Barrax put it, Wierwille's thesis works "pretty much as advertised." Did you catch it? "Pretty much."
Universal laws do not "pretty much" work. They are absolute. Wierwille's law of believing was presented as an absolute, and as such, it is either ALWAYS right, or it is not a law.
To disprove that believing is a LAW, one only needs to come up with one example of something that is either available or promised in God's Word, in which the person with the request honestly believed God for deliverance, that the need and the desire for such deliverance were "parallel" (that is, that the want was not greater than the need, nor was the need greater than the want), and the understanding was present that God's willingness is equal to His ability and yet the deliverance did not come to pass. How many of you have a situation that fits that description? I do. I was at the funeral.
Not all believing equals receiving, although it's a good principle to get clear and concerned and maintain a positive attitude and trust God. Not all fear equals receiving, or my mother would have seen to my death before I reached the age of 18, because I am talking a PARANOID momma.
Believing is a good thing. It is a positive principle. There are successes that cannot be achieved without it (dancing comes to mind). But it's not a law, because one can believe and not receive. Likewise, one can receive without believing.
_____
On another subject, Mike brought up Wierwille's crediting of EW Kenyon in "Order My Steps In Thy Word. Wierwille plagiarized Kenyon notoriously in that chapter, crediting the earlier author with one extended quote while swiping several other significant blocks of text from the very same chapter. For documentation, click here.
Mike disingenuously tries to claim that Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard and Kenyon never complained about Wierwille's plagiarism. We now know that Stiles and Leonard DID complain, Bullinger was long dead when Wierwille lifted his stuff, and To put a cap on the issue, Kenyon died in 1948, long before Wierwille's relevant works were published.
So what does Mike do? Accuse Stiles and Leonard of succumbing to the world's standards on plagiarism.
Sigh.
____
Final point: Mike's handling of the "David was a man after God's own heart" error was so fundamentally dishonest, and his characterization of my treatment of that ERROR was so far from the truth, that I was forced to re-examine the error. In the end, I still think it is in fact and actual, undeniable error. So you might want to revise your table of contents again, Mike. If you have the time. But I know, you're busy. When you get to it, blah blah blah blah barf.
You haven't answered my question about where that story was from. I've learned to check the TVT-PFAL dichotomy routinely, when I hear stories of grad experiences like this. Likewise, when I hear stories of passages in the books, I routinely go there and look for the Natural/Factual ? Spiritual/Divine dichotomy manifested in the special vocabulary words Dr used to convey this dichotomy.
You wrote: ?You have had hundreds of people posting at gspot of God`s great deliverance, abundance, healing, and continued blessings in their lives.... why would he DO that if he was dissapointed in our lack of adherance to vp`s doctrine??
Grace. I?d add that the deliverance you describe was from the TVT, not PFAL.
With little time, I?ll just say this for now: I posted here several times that I think the copyright law has it?s places in academia and the marketplace. It?s only in the family of God, with we who understand it, understand that our Father owns all, and that within this family the man-made copyright laws are superceded. Deut.29:29 was retemory #2 I think.
I do remember the prophet Ilija-sha (sp?), after a big win over Jezabel and the 400 prophets, went up on a mountain and asked God to let him get hit by lightning. He was tired of the fight and wanted to die and get the better resurrection. It looks like the adversary takes him up on it, and then God gives him a revelation that there is still a lot of work to do, so he gets his believing turned around to go back in and fight again for some more rounds. There might be something implied there, as well as in other OT scenarios.
I?ve always wondered about that one. It appears to have been edited out of the book. I?m still wondering why. One last possibility I?d consider was that it?s just TVT. There are other ways of looking at it, but I just now saw that it wasn?t in the book.
In addition to the Nat-Spir dichotomy and the TVT-PFAL dichotomy, there?s also the tape-print dichotomy to be on the lookout for. I?ve seen this many times now, where our great familiarity with the tape of the class interferes with our potentially more refined familiarity with the book. This is the most classic example of where we got tricked into the good, and missed the best.
Evidently the red drape thing was probably something that God gave revelation to slide away from our sight when the book was being edited, yet we held onto it.
What a switch!
Things God would have loved to have us hear slipped by us unnoticed,
and this thing God would have slip way from us we hold onto.
?The law, SIMPLY STATED, is that what we believe for or expect, we get.?
With my ALL-CAPS for emphasis.
This is the highly abbreviated law of believing, the SIMPLY STATED law of believing.
A highly abbreviated formulation of the law of gravity is ?Things fall.?
If you want to be an astronaut a more full formulation of the law is F= (GMm)/®2.
In an abbreviated form of the law, false conclusions can be drawn if it?s abbreviated nature is not taken into account.
There are places where the abbreviated form of the law of believing is depicted, but there are enough page references (don?t make me find them) where Dr tempers this with the fuller form, where the promise of God aspect is stated as MANDATORY.
You wrote: ?That whole "believe for it and you'll get it" stuff was pounded into our heads all the time with no restrictions on what you could believe for: a good parking space, a good grade on a test, a better job, winning the Powerball lottery. If your believing is strong enough...I remember hearing that the only thing you couldn't believe for was something that affected another person's free will, like believing for somebody to fall in love with you.?
What you described there was the TVT, to the ?T? !!!
I agree this DID happen. It was wrong. If we had obeyed Dr?s instructions to master the books we would have seen that this is wrong sooner. The books tell us not to think the way we were led by OLG leaders. They were doing their best to pass on what Dr had taught them, and did well for a time, but as the book doctrine drifted out and TVT drifted in they failed to see this error well enough to fix it. I did it too.
Howdy. It?s nice to have you back. I always got the impression that for the law to work for ?saint and sinner alike? was a great relief. I think, but I?m not sure, that the ?saint? mentioned here means NOT born again, but highly disciplined at rule following, like the medieval saints, like as opposed to an undisciplined sinner.
In other words, I can attempt to work with God on one of His projects, and the fact that I blow it occasionally in my believing and in my walk and discipline, doesn?t negate the truth that I CAN ALSO walk in the truth with no self condemnation and when I do walk in truth believing it, God can bring to pass great things, in spite of my failing sinner flesh.
When that phrase ?saint and sinner alike? in Dr?s exposition of the law of believing is looked at this way, then it?s good news, it comforts, it edifies, it exhorts me to go on to a more worthy endeavor, like getting more disciplined. It?s the positive motivator, so I can do away with fear motivation, and just get into believing more and more.
Another totally critical factor to bring into this mix is the difference between believing and mental assent. The two can be extremely close, both to examinations from without by others, and to examinations from within by ourselves.
I?m not so sure about the universality of your observation. I do know of a few who appreciate my posts, and I expect there are a few who haven?t made themselves known to me... yet, and I expect in the future some here may get to the point of hearing enough details to change their believing. We?ll see as the details emerge.
I always got the impression that for the law to work for ?saint and sinner alike? was a great relief. I think, but I?m not sure, that the ?saint? mentioned here means NOT born again, but highly disciplined at rule following, like the medieval saints, like as opposed to an undisciplined sinner.
Horse manure.
quote:In other words, I can attempt to work with God on one of His projects, and the fact that I blow it occasionally in my believing and in my walk and discipline, doesn?t negate the truth that I CAN ALSO walk in the truth with no self condemnation and when I do walk in truth believing it, God can bring to pass great things, in spite of my failing sinner flesh.
For those keeping track, this would fall under "distract." It addresses nothing of the point I was making, but it did take up four whole lines.
quote:When that phrase ?saint and sinner alike? in Dr?s exposition of the law of believing is looked at this way, then it?s good news, it comforts, it edifies, it exhorts me to go on to as more worth endeavor, like getting more disciplined. It?s the positive motivator, so I can do away with fear motivation, and just get into believing more and more.
I have no problem with the positive motivation. It just ain't a law. Deal with it.
quote:Another totally critical factor to bring into this mix is the difference between believing and mental assent.
A distinction Wierwille stole from Kenyon, incidentally.
quote:The two can be extremely close, both to examinations from without by others, and to examinations from within by ourselves.
More evasion. This is the standard "blame the believer" approach whenever the law of believing doesn't work. You didn't REALLY believe, you see. It was just mental assent. Had you really believed, the law of believing would have worked.
H-O-R-S-E M-A-N-U-R-E.
Believing is a wonderful thing. It was wonderful as taught by Kenyon. It was wonderful as photocopied, stolen, and reprinted by Wierwille, and it even sounds good coming from you. It just ain't a law. Deal with it.
I may more stupid than normal , what with the great Raphael writing . But I will give it a go for the common man among us, or maybe for those who do not give a solid crap what you may feel is wrong with me.
oh just to make ya aware I noticed a spelling error in one of your posts Mike , honestly , go check back a page dear God have mercy on your utter soul .
anyways I have something to say about the believing thing ...
What Goey said about vpw and a group of men believing someone could die at their thought control...
Read THAT???????
did that impact anyone here????
I also felt that kind of FEAR!!!!! while involved in the way .
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT EVIL IS BEHIND THIS BELIEVING EGUALS RECIEVING line of control teaching.
IN the REAL world we believe if we water and feed our rose beds they will flower nice this year and bring us pleasure when we look to see them.
IN THE twi CULT world we believe for people to DIE and they do die so God loves us more for our believing of it !!!!!!!!!
IT then must become a law for us.
God loves us so much HE now will kill people or in the very least not allow them to live...because vpw didnt like them.
Yeah baby we got the power !
Does this sit very RAW with anyone but me????
The teaching of life or death got so dam convoluted away from Jesus Christ being life and death being death to twi being life and if you messed with anyone involved it was death for you!!!!
not a spiritual death, a real your no longer breathing death. I felt that threat I know many many followers of vpw who believed that God would kill those who opposed twi.
That was The REASON sin was so out of control within twi, many did believe they couldnt be stopped they were untouchable.
I know believers who do not think they will ever die from this life (go to sleep and await the return) because God says we do not have to ever die from our flesh if we believe long and hard enough!!!
I was told countless times it is available to live forever on earth without seeing death and if something happenes to you it is because you can not believe the promise of God.
DAM !! Listen so I got one freak involved with twi believing I should die and I am believing to live and who the HELL wins???
who does God listen too??
The advance class grad? the way corps? gee wzz I am only a pfal grad I better obey or die what with the believing they must have over my own !!!
it was fear based .
FEAR BASED MUCH?????
It was out of control and scary and real and it worked to make the way into a cult of bullies and control freaks over those who could not get away from being afraid of believing they would DIE if they didnt comply.
I truly believe ,from a simple human point of view, that the teaching of believing equals recieving was the very core of vpw making of a cult, and he dam well knew it would work, and he dam well knew it was going to frighten people into his mode of thinking so he could control what they thought and what they didnt about every single area of life, He taught it for control of the masses and it worked .
Many fell into the power play and joined in with the scare tactics of God or the devil will kill you if you refuse to comply. It didnt really matter which one they would threaten you with either, the bottom line was YOU WOULD DIE if you didnt comply with what they told you was right and wrong.
It was a law .
oo I remember being so dam afraid of the power I thought they had over me, their "believing was so much superiour than my own you see I mean God has favorites you see and will take care of HIS OWN !
The offshoots teach the same crap , one of the very first teachings I questioned in twi was the one with thirty or hundred fold in Mathew 13:23
Of course twi and now its offshoots has 100% fold on the fruit of the word so now we can kill off the rest of God children with our believing of it!
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
82
119
656
81
Popular Days
Jun 15
86
Jul 3
73
Jul 12
50
Mar 31
49
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 82 posts
mj412 119 posts
Mike 656 posts
Steve Lortz 81 posts
Popular Days
Jun 15 2003
86 posts
Jul 3 2003
73 posts
Jul 12 2003
50 posts
Mar 31 2003
49 posts
Popular Posts
Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
wyteduv58
I wrote it down to get it.
There was another baseball movie out last summer. I forget it's name. With Dennis Quaid.
...The Rookie!!! It was great too!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Jbarrax and WordWolf,
I?m about to derail this thread temporarily, but this topic will offer avenues back to the Natural/Factual vs. Spiritual/Divine.
I saw your exchange on another thread and wanted to pipe in, but in this non intrusive manner.
Jerry wrote:
***********************************************************
?I'm in the process of moving and setting up a new branch location at work, so I can't get into a lengthy debate about this, but I just wanted to say that I no longer count the "law of believing" among VP's erroneous doctrines. It may or may not be "unbiblical" (Depends on what Scriptures you look at), but I believe it pretty much works as advertised.
?I don't think fear is a law, in the sense that what you fear absolutely has to happen, but I do believe that what we set our minds on is the second most powerful factor in what we experience. Number one is of course the grace of God.
?If you want to look at some Scritpures that support this, you can of course look at Jesus' statements to his disciples about having faith as a grain of mustard seed and his repeated aknowledgment of the role faith played in the deliverance of those he healed. I am absolutely convinced that someone who is sick cannot be healed without faith that God can and will heal them.
?Likewise someone who believes he cannot succeed will fail. The fact that every successful coach, consultant and motivational speaker preaches this doctrine shouldn't make us suspicious of it and deride it as "unbiblical", but should testify to the universality of this truth. In other words, if it works time and again for athletes, salesmen, and businessmen, there must be something to it.?
***********************************************************
This is verrrrry interesting, as you said, Jerry.
I?ve not spent much time on the law of believing yet, and these remarks of your stimulated my interest.
One thing that I?ve noticed about fear is that there is no teaching on ?the fear of a mustard seed? being as powerful as mustard seed believing the promises of God. Job mentions great fear, not mustard seed fear. He went to the temple with this fear DAILY. Reminds me of the Bereans who went to the scriptures daily to cultivate positive believing.
Then WordWolf, you came in with:
***********************************************************
?...the LAW of believing, as stated, it means
that a NON-Christian who absolutely believes
their "magic 8-ball" will give them miraculous
healing WILL instantly heal while a Christian
who is semi-certain will get WORSE results than
the non-Christian. As stated, God's irrelevant,
and so is the content of what is believed.
Whether or not believing in-and-of-itself can
do SOMETHING is a separate question, and
outside the scope of this thread, but as stated,
the "LAW" says nothing about GOD-it "works for
sinner and saint ALIKE".
?It's also known as "magical thinking" in certain
circles-it's not "prayer", because that would
only work if one's belief was IN GOD.?
***********************************************************
I think that the law of believing AS STATED, or ?as advertised? as the way Jerry put it, is different that that.
?...the LAW of believing, as stated, it means
that a NON-Christian who absolutely believes
their "magic 8-ball..."
I disagree. Dr never taught that random, personal, or 8-ball wishes could be indulged with this law. It?s only by believing a ?promise of God? that Dr teaches a non-christian can operate the law. It?s not just any old random desire that can be believed, it has to be a promise of God, and this is stated over and over in PFAL. When JAL came to SD in the late 80?s and early 90?s one of his first big messages was that Dr was teaching witchcraft, or the use of the law of believing outside of God?s limits. JAL taught people here and around the country that Dr?s teachings omitted God?s promises in the law of believing teaching. I have tapes of him saying this.
I first heard this in 1988, and I was not nearly so much the PFAL fan I am now. I was convinced that there was SOMETHING good about the class, but I couldn?t completely put my finger on it, plus year after year I was getting talked out of it.
JAL started to talk me out of it, because I could relate to what he was saying to a degree. It was here that I discovered the great difference between the TVT and what was actually in the tapes and books. I had been exposed to the TVT where God?s promises figuring into the law of believing had dimmed. JAL was accurately exposing the flaws of the TVT, but inaccurately pinning it on PFAL.
JAL started to talk me out of it in 1988, but that was the year I found that the PFAL audio tapes were being bootlegged by hundreds of other people, kinda like the book situation I mentioned earlier in another post. I listened to the entire class carefully that year and documented several places where Dr DID teach that believing had to be on a promise of God or it was no deal. The next year when JAL came to town I told him of my finds. He was totally uninterested.
Since then I?ve found more.
This, is the second big lie about Dr propounded in those years.
On this thread I?ve posted proof exposing another big lie from those destructive tours. That was the lie that Dr neglected teaching us enough on the lordship of Jesus Christ.
It?s about halfway down this thread:
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=3
****
WordWolf, you then continued your distortion of Dr?s teaching with:
?...the LAW of believing, as stated, it means
that a NON-Christian who absolutely believes
their "magic 8-ball" will give them miraculous
healing WILL instantly...?
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa!
Where did you get ?instantly? ???
****
?...the LAW of believing, as stated, it means
that a NON-Christian who absolutely believes
their "magic 8-ball" will give them miraculous
healing WILL instantly heal while a Christian
who is semi-certain will get WORSE results than
the non-Christian.?
Well now, that CAN be the case. Dr does teach how the devil will target semi-knowledgeable semi-believers. It doesn?t HAVE to be the case, though, as Dr also teaches.
****
?As stated, God's irrelevant,
and so is the content of what is believed.?
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
You?re propounding the same lie now. Dr teaches over and over that God?s promises are a MUST in the law of believing, and that it is God who watches over His Word to perform it. Dr always taught that God got the glory for the law of believing, not the believer. The page references are numerous.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 07, 2003 at 21:36.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
aaaaggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!
where is the kool aid?
Mike... are you there?
Do you forget to regularly take your meds?
I'll be happy to help you remember when and how many to take...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Mike.... That is rediculous, I am not *insulting the man you love* ... simply because what you think you *love* never really existed in the first place.
What YOU love is mearly an illusion that has been manufactured......
All *I* have asked you to do is, actually LOOK at galations and READ what the attributes of a man of the spirit are .....then possibly you might understand that vp/twi never WAS what we all thought... what we all believed that we loved...
You tell me to get a life....honey, I HAVE a life...a delightfull life, enriched with family, freinds, home, job, exciting hobbies, community involvement.......Now lets contrast that with where the last 15 or 20 years spent on the mastery of pfal has gotten you.... hmmmmmm?
Lets hear about God`s blessings in YOUR life...
I think that is why we are interested in hearing about any signes and wonders that have been happening as a result of pfal *mastery*
[This message was edited by rascal on July 07, 2003 at 23:00.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Mike,
Stiles also was very p.o.'ed that his work had been plagiarized, and wrote about it in the later editions of his holy spirit book.
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Shaz,
I'm sorry to hear that he forgot about the family of God, God's ownership of everything, and God's inspiration for all good ideas.
I'd like to think the best of him, and think that you somehow encountered a lie, and that his character had not deteriorated to such a worldly state.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Mike Posted:
I think you are dead wrong Mike. He most certainly did. For an example, VPW taught that there were a group of men who got together and "believed" for another man to die - someone that they did not like. VPW claimed that their believing killed this man.
Are you gonna tell us now - that these men were believing a promise of God?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Goey,
I'm not familiar with that teaching.
There is one additional factor.
Believing on a promise of God is not restricted to written promises. Believing a direct revelation of a promise works too, and it's the case that this kind of believing is really the manifestation of believing.
It may be that what you heard was a group of men believing a direct, unwritten promise of the True God, but I don't know. I'm at a disadvantage of ignorance regarding this story you mention, but if the True God was involved, it'd have to involve more than just not liking the guy, like a great need of life or death such as in a war.
It may be that what you heard was a group of men believing on the counterfeit side with the adversary and helping him in his plans.
I'm at a disadvantage, have not ever heard the story. Are you SURE it's not TVT?
[This message was edited by Mike on July 08, 2003 at 3:20.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Goey:
If memory serves, you have a background in
philology, or at least a firmer grounding in the
languages of the Bible. Please explain the
term "condesensio" from the Latin and explain
precisely WHY its not a license for us to be
snide and arrogant with each other.
(I'm amazed it even has to be said.) It came
up on the bottom of page 32 (the page where I
quoted the orange and white books' explanations
of how they came to be.)
As any student of pfal should have been able to
remember (let alone an afficionado of same),
the figure of speech "condesencio" (Latin) is
also called "anthorpopatheia (Greek) or
'derech banai Adam" (Hebrew). It describes the
attributes of humans. The Greek name of this
figure was said to mean literally "pathos of
man". Anyway, Goey, please explain it more
fully, in that manner in which you are rather
qualified.
-----------------------------------------------
Mike,
It doesn't surprise me that you're seeking to
wiggle out of the direct, obvious and expressed
meanings of the relevant citations of the
orange and white books as to how we got them.
Both pretty much tell the same story. VPW had
a background with lots of work of people who
tried to explain the Bible. He concluded that
the proper solution was to discard what they
wrote (3000 volumes, according to the orange
book). Once he had done that, he then did all
his OWN study, using only the Bible. It would
be appropriate to consider TRANSLATIONS of the
Bible-interlinears, texts in Greek, Aramaic,
Hebrew, Latin, concordances- to be included in
this (or at least fair), since they don't
constitute commentaries, just translations of
the same book. (Or an index, in the case of the
concordance.)
Your attempts to try to depict "The Word" as
referring to "the Bible, and specific
commentaries"-Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard,
Kenyon- as opposed to all other commentaries,
which were discarded as useless, is without
merit. We can wrangle exact meanings of this
in the orange book, since there are few words
discussing this in the relevant passage.
The white book is another story.
Just going from the preface (quoted in its
entirety on page 32 of this thread), VPW was
VERY specific, excruciatingly clear, notably
unambiguous, concerning the contributions of
others to the contents of that book.
The best thing he could say of ANY other
Christians when seeking material on the subject
was that they were "sincere", then saying the
famous quote "sincerity is no guarantee of
truth". This means that the nicest thing he said
about other Christians was that they meant
well, but they did not have the correct
information. He did not say "most of them don't
know, but a few DO understand", or say, "only
a bare handful of Christians teach anything of
substance on this subject". He said rather
clearly that the material contents were the
result of work alone. You can NOT say that he
was using the term "The Word" to mean "the
Bible and a handful of other books I found
useful" here under anybody's definition. That's
because he was more specific in his description.
(However, the orange book's answer is clear to
everyone except you.) In the white book, he
said he made "THE BIBLE" his textbook.
(Feel free to review the preface) He was very
specific about the work of other Christians on
this subject-they were clueless- and he was
specific on his research texts for the white
book-the Bible, and that's it.
It is fair to expect that small asides-like the
properly-accredited Lamsa notes in one
appendix-do not invalidate this claim. After
all, a minor quote hardly counts as the bulk of
the work.
I'll reply to your characterization of me in the
appropriate manner at a time convenient to me.
You have until then to anticipate my reply.
(Which you should have no difficulty doing, as
it is very predictable.)
I will say this much at this hour-
my use of the term "miracle" and the term
"instant" as nearly interchangeable was per
VPW's definitions of "miracle", in that
miracles occur "instantly". That's per the
Advanced class and was taught by VPW on a
number of other occasions. The one that springs
to mind for me is from the keynote teachings
of ROA '76 (Healing), the night he taught on
the man at the temple gate beautiful (Acts).
Let me know if you need me to dig out the
precise quote on the subject. (If you have that
tape, it is right where he claims that all 9
manifestations are shown in that exact
account.)
------------------------------------------------
For those of you curious about copyright law
(something that all Christians except,
apparently, vpw and Mike think is a legitimate
legal, ethical and moral issue),
you might want to check out the following
links for a little background
(what does it mean, why does every country
subscribe to them, etc.)
http://www.iccwbo.org/home/intellectual_pr...ntation/wwh.asp
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Mike:
Are you also unfamiliar with the section of PFAL where Wierwille states that if a man believes that he will die within a certain time frame that God would have to rewrite all his laws to not accomodate him?
What promise of God guarantees that people will die if they belive to do so?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Mike -- are red drapes a promise of God?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Mike,
the blue book "the Bible Tells Me So"
says the following on the subject of
believing:
(page 28) "WHAT WE BELIEVE EQUALS WHAT WE ARE"
(pg-29) "What We Believe = What We are
The law of believing is dynamically powerful,
yet so simple. The law, simply stated, is that
what we believe for or expect, we get.
This applies in every realm: physical, mental,
material, spiritual. Thus it is this law which
basically controls the abundant life. Only if
we believe and expect abundance will we ever
realize abundance in our lives.
'The Synchronized Life' shows that our lives are
molded by our believing-both by positive and
negative believing. This law is further
explained and proved in 'The Law of Believing'
so that we will become aware of our own
thinking and then be able to control our
thinking so as to manifest the abundant life
which is promised in God's Word."
-----------------------------------======
That was the entire contents of both pages.
except for the last 2 words of the second page,
God doesn't enter the picture.
(page 31) "Chapter Four.
The Synchronized Life
Whatever a person believes is directly reflected
in what he confesses. What a person confesses in
his innermost being is what he brings into
manifestation in his life. If a person goes
through life confessing that he has great need,
he will definitely have great need. If he
confesses sickness, he will continue to be sick
and afflicted because of the law that what one
believes in the depth of his soul absolutely
appears in his life.
The "synchronized life" is simply stated by this
formula: confession of belief yields receipt of
confession."
----------------------------------------------
pg-43 and 44. "The law of believing brings
phenomenal results to all those who apply and
practice the principles.
You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing
works both ways, and you bring to yourself
whatever you believe."
pg-44."Fear, worry and anxiety are types of
believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your
negative believing which is defeat.
The law of believing works equally effectively
for both the sinner and the saint..."
Chapter One, "Release From Your Prisons".
pg-8. "How have you mentally pictured yourself
for the past week, month, year, ten years? The
picture that you carry of yourself with
clearness and with concern is what you are.
This law works for positive and negative
thinking alike."
pg-6 and 7.
"A camera offers an appropriate analogy of the
means by which you can get results to prayer and
find release from your prisons. If you want an
answer to prayer, first get your object in mind.
You select what you want in your picture. This
is step one: youre CLEAR on what you want.
Secondly, you use the range finder and focus
the subject properly. Then consider the length
of exposure of the picture so that all factors
may work together for a perfect picture. After
all this, shoot the picture.
When you are focused on the picture of what you
want, keep your mind stayted on it. If you
allow something else to come in and take
precedence over that picture you will get a
blurred answer to prayer; you will not get the
results you desire; you will not get release
from the prison which is encasing you.
If you want to get rid of something today, youmust focus, dwell on what you want. It is
the introduction of light that dispels darkness,
not the dwelling on the darkness that introduces
light. If you want more business, better
relations between employer and employee or a better job, get your desire in mind, focus on it
and then determine the exposure time needed to
accomplish the task.
If you want to get out of your prisons today,
immediately change your thinking about your
situation: change your subject of focus. As you
change your thinking, you will draw a mental
pattern for the things you DO want in your life,
which in turn will dispel and root out all those
things you do not want."
-----------------------------------------------
Mike said
"Dr never taught that random, personal or 8-ball
wishes could be indulged with this law." "It's
not just any old random desire that can be
believed, it has to be a promise of God, and
this is stated over and over in PFAL." "This is
the second big lie about Dr propounded in those
years."
VPW said
"What we believe for, we get."
"Our lives are molded by our believing-both by
positive and negative believing."
"What we believe equals what we are."
"What one believes in the depth of his soul
absolutely appears in his life."
"You bring to yourself whatever you believe."
"The law of believing works equally effectively
for both sinner and saint"
"The picture that you carry of yourself with
clearness and concern is what you are. This law
works for positive and negative thinking alike."
"As you change your thinking, you will draw a
mental pattern for the things you DO want in
your life, which in turn will dispel and root
out those things you do not want."
WordWolf, commenting on VPW, said of VPW's
teachings in PFAL,
"As stated, God is irrelevant, and so is the
content of what is believed."
Mike said of WordWolf's comment,
"Wrong, wrong, wrong!
You're propounding the same lie now."
Really, Mike?
I say the references to God, and prayer are
incidental in the instructions on believing.
As you saw, the requirements to receive
involve BELIEVING, and focusing your believing.
At no point is a REQUIREMENT made for your
believing being believing a promise of God.
It was believing and your mental focus and
picture that determine success or failure to
receive. At NO point is it said that if you
believe, but what you believe is NOT what God
promises, you won't get it no matter how much
you believe it.
BTW, the Foundational class syllabus (which you
got when you took the Advanced class) mentions
a few of these things, and says:
"What you fear, you will receive-it is a law."
-------------------------------------------
The orange book ALSO addresses the subject of
believing.
page 32.
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the
Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only
the greatest law in The Word, it is the greatest
law in the whole world. Believing works for
saint and sinner alike."
page 35.
(after referencing Mark 11:23)
"This is the great law in the Word of God.
'Whosoever...' It does not say Christian or
non-Christian; whosoever means whosoever.
"Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be
thou removes, and...cast into the sea and shall
not doubt...but shall believe that those things
which he saith shall come to pass; he shall
have whatsoever he saith.' In other words, say
it, believe it, and it will come to pass."
"The law of believing is the greatest law in
the Word of God: whosoever says it, whosoever
believes, will act and receive."
-------------------------------------------
page 38.
"If one is afraid of a disease, he will manifest
that disease because the law is that what one
believes (in this case, what one believes
negatively), he is going to receive."
his law of negative and positive believing works
for both Christian and non-Christian. When we
believe, we receive the results of our believing
regardless of who or what we are."
page 42-44 cover the story of the woman whose
fear "killed her son".
page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is
a law. Have you ever heard about people who set
the time of their death? When somebody says
'Well, this time next year I will not be here,"
if you are a betting man, bet your money, you
are going to win. If a person makes up his mind
that this time next year he is going to be
dead, God would have to change the laws of the
universe for the person not to be accomodated."
---------------------------------------------
Mike said
"It's not just any old random desire that can
be believed, it has to be a promise of God, and
this is stated over and over in PFAL."
We just saw what PFAL said.
Oakspear said
"Mike, are you also unfamiliar with the section
of PFAL where Wierwille states that if a man
believes that he will die within a certain
time frame that God would have to rewrite all
His laws not to accomodate him?
What promise of God guarantees that people will
die if they believe to do so?"
Ok, we saw the account. Sure enough-that's what
PFAL says in the orange book. (Page 44.)
Shazdancer brought up the red drapes. I don't
know if it's in the books, but we ALL remember
the "fire-engine red" curtains mentioned in
the PFAL class.
Shazdancer said
"are red drapes a promise of God?"
Mike said
"Dr never taught that random, personal or
8-ball wishes could be indulged with this law."
So, Mike, the "fire-engine red curtains"
mentioned in the live class, the redness was not
"personal"?
==============================================
As VPW taught it, believing IN AND OF ITSELF
appropriated results, REGARDLESS OF THE CONTENT
OF WHAT IS BELIEVED.
"The law, simply stated, is that what we believe
for or expect, we get. This applies in every
realm: physical, mental, material, spiritual."
Mike said
"Dr teaches over and over that God's promises
are a MUST in the law of believing....
The page references are numerous."
Really, Mike?
We just SAW "numerous" references.
BTW, Mike,
don't pretend I said vpw said God's promises
are irrelevant, or that we shouldn't believe
God. He did say we should believe God, and to
believe His promises.
What I AM saying is that as vpw taught it in
pfal, the CONTENT of what is believed is
incidental to appropriate it.
The page references are numerous AND GIVEN
ABOVE.
===============================================
Please stop speculating on the contents of the
pfal books when it's obvious you're rather
unfamiliar with their contents.
Finally,
Looks like you owe me an apology for saying I
misrepresented the contents of the pfal books.
I'll put it on your tab.
===============================================
Other than Mike or seaspray, does anyone out
there Mike was correct on pfal's points on
believing, and that I was INcorrect?
If so, please speak up.
(If you think I'm wrong, please cite some
evidence.)
================================================
Oakspear,
now THAT was my full attention on a post.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Mike... dude... you are certifiable... but you know that don't you?
Why don't you go back "in" (unless you already are)... they really like pushy, arrogant, condescending zealots like yourself...
P.S. think about the book thing...
P.S.S. I really would help remind you of your medication times if you'd like...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
(somehow, this was a double post)
[This message was edited by WordWolf on July 08, 2003 at 10:36.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
you know... Mike will never come over to the dark side with us... this whole thing is just a trick to get everyone reading the piffle books again to find his errors... HE'S TRICKING US INTO MASTERING THE BOOKS!
Well, I for one will not fall for it... I am not going to open those books... personally, I read this thread for entertainment... although I still believe:
Mike is certifiable
Mike is in need of regular meds
Mike would be happier writing a book...
P.S. Mike, the offer is still open to help you remember the times to take the meds...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on July 08, 2003 at 11:29.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
*Tricking us into mastering the books*..lol BRILLIANT Tom, and I never saw it coming..
Come on Mike, blessings? bennefits? signes ? miracles? What have you got to show that your life of pfal mastery is a *good* thing?
What IS it that mastery gives you that would be attractive to people?
You have had hundreds of people posting at gspot of God`s great deliverance, abundance, healing, and continued blessings in their lives.... why would he DO that if he was dissapointed in our lack of adherance to vp`s doctrine?
You think God is dissapointed? You think he doesn`t like us anymore? We gonna lose most favored believer status?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Pirate1974
Hey Mike,
Were you ever really in the way?
Did you ever really hear vp speak?
Did you ever really take pfal?
That whole "believe for it and you'll get it" stuff was pounded into our heads all the time with no restrictions on what you could believe for: a good parking space, a good grade on a test, a better job, winning the Powerball lottery. If your believing is strong enough...
I remember hearing that the only thing you couldn't believe for was something that affected another person's free will, like believing for somebody to fall in love with you.
"Believing is a law, just like the law of gravity."
I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that phrase.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
WordWolf - You've done a brilliant job of exposing the truth, that Mike's disrespect and disregard for what's actually written in PFAL is just as monumental as his disrespect and disregard for what's actually written in God's Word!
Mike is hooked on his ACFW spirit. The only things that count are the things it whispers to him. Mike has lost his ability to tell the difference between true and false. He has lost his ability to tell the difference between reason and rationalization.
The "wonderfulness" of "coming back to PFAL" doesn't reside in the occurance of godly signs, miracles and wonders, but rather in the counterfeit jollies Mike's ACFW spirit induces in his mind.
I agree with Tom Strange that meds can ameliorate the symptoms, but Mike won't recover until he comes back to truth, and renounces the lie that PFAL is God-breathed.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
By Mike:
Or it may be that VPW was wrong and that the so-called law of believing as taught by Wierwille was erroneous. Oh, but it could not possibly be that the great VPW was wrong here, could it? You are grapsing at straws here in an attempt to keep VPW's words infallible and keep yourself "right" about everything.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
My, how this thread has grown in my absence.
Sigh.
Is "The Law of Believing" now considered "on topic?" If so, I'd like to point out God's Magnified Word, p. 79, in which Wierwille states, "Many operate the law of believing without even having a knowledge of God's Word, for this law of believing works for saint and sinner alike." The plain meaning of the preceding sentence is that the law of believing exists independently of God's Word and, therefore, independently of God's promises.
Dodge. Evade. Distract. Deny. But never admit an error is an error.
Of course, the interesting thing is that Wierwille was often right when he spoke about believing, leading his supporters on this subject to stumble when trying to prove him right. The problem is, as Jerry Barrax put it, Wierwille's thesis works "pretty much as advertised." Did you catch it? "Pretty much."
Universal laws do not "pretty much" work. They are absolute. Wierwille's law of believing was presented as an absolute, and as such, it is either ALWAYS right, or it is not a law.
To disprove that believing is a LAW, one only needs to come up with one example of something that is either available or promised in God's Word, in which the person with the request honestly believed God for deliverance, that the need and the desire for such deliverance were "parallel" (that is, that the want was not greater than the need, nor was the need greater than the want), and the understanding was present that God's willingness is equal to His ability and yet the deliverance did not come to pass. How many of you have a situation that fits that description? I do. I was at the funeral.
Not all believing equals receiving, although it's a good principle to get clear and concerned and maintain a positive attitude and trust God. Not all fear equals receiving, or my mother would have seen to my death before I reached the age of 18, because I am talking a PARANOID momma.
Believing is a good thing. It is a positive principle. There are successes that cannot be achieved without it (dancing comes to mind). But it's not a law, because one can believe and not receive. Likewise, one can receive without believing.
_____
On another subject, Mike brought up Wierwille's crediting of EW Kenyon in "Order My Steps In Thy Word. Wierwille plagiarized Kenyon notoriously in that chapter, crediting the earlier author with one extended quote while swiping several other significant blocks of text from the very same chapter. For documentation, click here.
Mike disingenuously tries to claim that Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard and Kenyon never complained about Wierwille's plagiarism. We now know that Stiles and Leonard DID complain, Bullinger was long dead when Wierwille lifted his stuff, and To put a cap on the issue, Kenyon died in 1948, long before Wierwille's relevant works were published.
So what does Mike do? Accuse Stiles and Leonard of succumbing to the world's standards on plagiarism.
Sigh.
____
Final point: Mike's handling of the "David was a man after God's own heart" error was so fundamentally dishonest, and his characterization of my treatment of that ERROR was so far from the truth, that I was forced to re-examine the error. In the end, I still think it is in fact and actual, undeniable error. So you might want to revise your table of contents again, Mike. If you have the time. But I know, you're busy. When you get to it, blah blah blah blah barf.
Raf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
Quote from Mike:
?If those are the only things you can come to that table with, I ask you to brainstorm a few new ones with me.?
Mike, you obviously haven't convinced anyone to change their mind about mastering pfal. You could shake the dust off your feet.
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Goey,
You haven't answered my question about where that story was from. I've learned to check the TVT-PFAL dichotomy routinely, when I hear stories of grad experiences like this. Likewise, when I hear stories of passages in the books, I routinely go there and look for the Natural/Factual ? Spiritual/Divine dichotomy manifested in the special vocabulary words Dr used to convey this dichotomy.
************************************************************
rascal,
You wrote: ?You have had hundreds of people posting at gspot of God`s great deliverance, abundance, healing, and continued blessings in their lives.... why would he DO that if he was dissapointed in our lack of adherance to vp`s doctrine??
Grace. I?d add that the deliverance you describe was from the TVT, not PFAL.
************************************************************
WordWolf,
With little time, I?ll just say this for now: I posted here several times that I think the copyright law has it?s places in academia and the marketplace. It?s only in the family of God, with we who understand it, understand that our Father owns all, and that within this family the man-made copyright laws are superceded. Deut.29:29 was retemory #2 I think.
************************************************************
Oakspear,
I don?t know.
I do remember the prophet Ilija-sha (sp?), after a big win over Jezabel and the 400 prophets, went up on a mountain and asked God to let him get hit by lightning. He was tired of the fight and wanted to die and get the better resurrection. It looks like the adversary takes him up on it, and then God gives him a revelation that there is still a lot of work to do, so he gets his believing turned around to go back in and fight again for some more rounds. There might be something implied there, as well as in other OT scenarios.
************************************************************
shaz,
I?ve always wondered about that one. It appears to have been edited out of the book. I?m still wondering why. One last possibility I?d consider was that it?s just TVT. There are other ways of looking at it, but I just now saw that it wasn?t in the book.
In addition to the Nat-Spir dichotomy and the TVT-PFAL dichotomy, there?s also the tape-print dichotomy to be on the lookout for. I?ve seen this many times now, where our great familiarity with the tape of the class interferes with our potentially more refined familiarity with the book. This is the most classic example of where we got tricked into the good, and missed the best.
Evidently the red drape thing was probably something that God gave revelation to slide away from our sight when the book was being edited, yet we held onto it.
What a switch!
Things God would have loved to have us hear slipped by us unnoticed,
and this thing God would have slip way from us we hold onto.
************************************************************
WordWolf,
Your quote from BTMS p.28 contains the key:
?The law, SIMPLY STATED, is that what we believe for or expect, we get.?
With my ALL-CAPS for emphasis.
This is the highly abbreviated law of believing, the SIMPLY STATED law of believing.
A highly abbreviated formulation of the law of gravity is ?Things fall.?
If you want to be an astronaut a more full formulation of the law is F= (GMm)/®2.
In an abbreviated form of the law, false conclusions can be drawn if it?s abbreviated nature is not taken into account.
There are places where the abbreviated form of the law of believing is depicted, but there are enough page references (don?t make me find them) where Dr tempers this with the fuller form, where the promise of God aspect is stated as MANDATORY.
I?ll try to get to the rest of your post tonight.
************************************************************
Pirate1974
You wrote: ?That whole "believe for it and you'll get it" stuff was pounded into our heads all the time with no restrictions on what you could believe for: a good parking space, a good grade on a test, a better job, winning the Powerball lottery. If your believing is strong enough...I remember hearing that the only thing you couldn't believe for was something that affected another person's free will, like believing for somebody to fall in love with you.?
What you described there was the TVT, to the ?T? !!!
I agree this DID happen. It was wrong. If we had obeyed Dr?s instructions to master the books we would have seen that this is wrong sooner. The books tell us not to think the way we were led by OLG leaders. They were doing their best to pass on what Dr had taught them, and did well for a time, but as the book doctrine drifted out and TVT drifted in they failed to see this error well enough to fix it. I did it too.
************************************************************
Rafael,
Howdy. It?s nice to have you back. I always got the impression that for the law to work for ?saint and sinner alike? was a great relief. I think, but I?m not sure, that the ?saint? mentioned here means NOT born again, but highly disciplined at rule following, like the medieval saints, like as opposed to an undisciplined sinner.
In other words, I can attempt to work with God on one of His projects, and the fact that I blow it occasionally in my believing and in my walk and discipline, doesn?t negate the truth that I CAN ALSO walk in the truth with no self condemnation and when I do walk in truth believing it, God can bring to pass great things, in spite of my failing sinner flesh.
When that phrase ?saint and sinner alike? in Dr?s exposition of the law of believing is looked at this way, then it?s good news, it comforts, it edifies, it exhorts me to go on to a more worthy endeavor, like getting more disciplined. It?s the positive motivator, so I can do away with fear motivation, and just get into believing more and more.
Another totally critical factor to bring into this mix is the difference between believing and mental assent. The two can be extremely close, both to examinations from without by others, and to examinations from within by ourselves.
************************************************************
WaferNot!,
I?m not so sure about the universality of your observation. I do know of a few who appreciate my posts, and I expect there are a few who haven?t made themselves known to me... yet, and I expect in the future some here may get to the point of hearing enough details to change their believing. We?ll see as the details emerge.
************************************************************
[This message was edited by Mike on July 08, 2003 at 13:29.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Horse manure.
For those keeping track, this would fall under "distract." It addresses nothing of the point I was making, but it did take up four whole lines.
I have no problem with the positive motivation. It just ain't a law. Deal with it.
A distinction Wierwille stole from Kenyon, incidentally.
More evasion. This is the standard "blame the believer" approach whenever the law of believing doesn't work. You didn't REALLY believe, you see. It was just mental assent. Had you really believed, the law of believing would have worked.
H-O-R-S-E M-A-N-U-R-E.
Believing is a wonderful thing. It was wonderful as taught by Kenyon. It was wonderful as photocopied, stolen, and reprinted by Wierwille, and it even sounds good coming from you. It just ain't a law. Deal with it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
hi Raf nice to see ya!
I may more stupid than normal , what with the great Raphael writing . But I will give it a go for the common man among us, or maybe for those who do not give a solid crap what you may feel is wrong with me.
oh just to make ya aware I noticed a spelling error in one of your posts Mike , honestly , go check back a page dear God have mercy on your utter soul .
anyways I have something to say about the believing thing ...
What Goey said about vpw and a group of men believing someone could die at their thought control...
Read THAT???????
did that impact anyone here????
I also felt that kind of FEAR!!!!! while involved in the way .
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT EVIL IS BEHIND THIS BELIEVING EGUALS RECIEVING line of control teaching.
IN the REAL world we believe if we water and feed our rose beds they will flower nice this year and bring us pleasure when we look to see them.
IN THE twi CULT world we believe for people to DIE and they do die so God loves us more for our believing of it !!!!!!!!!
IT then must become a law for us.
God loves us so much HE now will kill people or in the very least not allow them to live...because vpw didnt like them.
Yeah baby we got the power !
Does this sit very RAW with anyone but me????
The teaching of life or death got so dam convoluted away from Jesus Christ being life and death being death to twi being life and if you messed with anyone involved it was death for you!!!!
not a spiritual death, a real your no longer breathing death. I felt that threat I know many many followers of vpw who believed that God would kill those who opposed twi.
That was The REASON sin was so out of control within twi, many did believe they couldnt be stopped they were untouchable.
I know believers who do not think they will ever die from this life (go to sleep and await the return) because God says we do not have to ever die from our flesh if we believe long and hard enough!!!
I was told countless times it is available to live forever on earth without seeing death and if something happenes to you it is because you can not believe the promise of God.
DAM !! Listen so I got one freak involved with twi believing I should die and I am believing to live and who the HELL wins???
who does God listen too??
The advance class grad? the way corps? gee wzz I am only a pfal grad I better obey or die what with the believing they must have over my own !!!
it was fear based .
FEAR BASED MUCH?????
It was out of control and scary and real and it worked to make the way into a cult of bullies and control freaks over those who could not get away from being afraid of believing they would DIE if they didnt comply.
I truly believe ,from a simple human point of view, that the teaching of believing equals recieving was the very core of vpw making of a cult, and he dam well knew it would work, and he dam well knew it was going to frighten people into his mode of thinking so he could control what they thought and what they didnt about every single area of life, He taught it for control of the masses and it worked .
Many fell into the power play and joined in with the scare tactics of God or the devil will kill you if you refuse to comply. It didnt really matter which one they would threaten you with either, the bottom line was YOU WOULD DIE if you didnt comply with what they told you was right and wrong.
It was a law .
oo I remember being so dam afraid of the power I thought they had over me, their "believing was so much superiour than my own you see I mean God has favorites you see and will take care of HIS OWN !
The offshoots teach the same crap , one of the very first teachings I questioned in twi was the one with thirty or hundred fold in Mathew 13:23
Of course twi and now its offshoots has 100% fold on the fruit of the word so now we can kill off the rest of God children with our believing of it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.