Your question is like someone asking me for my pin number from the dark shadows near my ATM machine.
You want me to put all MY confirming evidence into your trusted hands?
I suppose if my miracles are impressive enough you'll repent of all this negativity and come back to PFAL? Or will it be you will get Steve to sniff out "lying signs and wonders" ? Then you'll try to "counsel" me to quit PFAL.
I suppose if they aren't impressive then you'll try to "counsel" me to quit PFAL.
Work with me on this, ok vickles, and let's hash out the ulterior reason you have for asking me that.
I pointed out EWB's childish behavior because, unlike many others here, I think he has a heart to change. Pointing out an area of needed change to someone can be a loving thing, and that's the heart I put into that. With many others I wouldn't bother.
I don't really have an ulterior reason. I really would like to know. What does trust have to do about it? If someone is having results about it I would like to know. That is all. I guess you don't know me but I don't play games like that. I may be sarcastic at times but I think I'm nicer than most. Does everyone have to have an ulterior motive? What if you were having those signs, miracles, and wonders? What if you were having those times of excitement of healing and getting people born again? Wouldn't you want to share them and not worry about the motives?
I guess I was just thinking about myself and all the people here and if something happened that was just the greatest thing ever I would want people to know about it. I would say to you oh my gosh I saw someone healed today. Or I got someone born again today. Or someone spoke in tongues for the first time today. You see where I'm coming from? I'm asking because I really want to know. If not that is fine.
I really don't like what you have to say just because you put others down. But I would like to hear the positives like the signs, miracles and wonders that you do see. I would like to see what happens when you put your beliefs in action. Not just words. We can say anything and they are just words unless we put them in practice.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Sharing with people in a casual setting is a lot different that the adversarial posting situation here. I want to post data that I believe people need to make fully informed decisions. I?m not here to be chummy or to win people over to my cause.
When I get to know someone via e-mail a little better or by phone, the kinds of questions you asked are very appropriate. But here, if you yourself are not going to pounce on every detail of my answer, someone else will. They do no matter what I post, but with some topics the distraction factor is greater than others. I?m talking about the distraction to other readers and also the distraction to me as a writer here.
I have, due to my peculiar past tastes and experiences, have found a lot of data that had been successfully hidden for over a decade. Because God blessed me with all this data, my responsibility is to get it out. The signs, miracles, and wonders in MY life that are meaningful to ME are not going to be as meaningful to others. Dr often taught that his ministry was NOT built on testimonials, and he gave reasons. The ?Heart? newspaper was a major experimental departure from this older policy of minimizing testimonials. Dr similarly taught that it?s not useful to teach personal experiences insofar that they become merged with doctrine. There are massive reasons for these policies as he taught us.
Suppose I answered your question with something like:
?Well God is blessing me a lot with information, but unfortunately my health situation could use a little help, and I?m still in jail. Maybe next year I?ll be released. Last year was pretty bad.?
Go ahead and analyze. Would a post like that from me HELP or HURT my message?
What I was paraphrasing in a highly abbreviated manner above was Paul?s second letter to Timothy. It could be slightly re-written to fit John the Baptist. It could fit MOST of the prophets and the lifestyles they led.
There?s another factor to include. Signs miracles and wonders happen when there?s a BODY doing it. Community believing is essential. Seven of the nine manifestations are for blessing OTHERS. If there are no others to bless, or there are very few others, the activity of blessing is diminished when compared to communities of believing believers loving and speaking the Word.
Suppose you asked your question of the Apostle Paul in the middle of his 7 year desert study program? Might his honest, factual answer give you cause to think that hooking up with was a loosing venture?
I might ask you, putting aside the ulterior motive challenge, to ponder this: what will you do with the answer?
I find this a VERY important part of the whole question formulation process. Asking this question of utility about another question is a VERY useful policy. It has proved to be a major key in quantum physics.
I still urge you to ask deep questions about the material and not me. That?s where the action is.
As for putting others down, I do my best to separate the PERSON from their words, actions, deeds, attitudes, errors. I try to see the person on one side of a line and the error on the other. Sometimes in a fast moving and adversarial atmosphere like this, the line gets blurred from a number of things. Do you get equally offended at all the names and put downs I endure here? Do you even notice them?
Are you aware of the MAJOR remote context of all those quotes of mine you posted regarding the ?tattered remnants? categorization of the received scriptures?
You may have missed my introduction of the term OLG, but it was to identify a SUBSET of people my message (and hence my remarks about the condition or the received scriptures) is addressed to.
When it comes to prePFAL people, the KJV is fine, as it was a requirement of new students and it is referred to on every page of PFAL, and the pages of PFAL encourage thorough reading and checking contexts.
It is implied in my proPFAL message that the KJV is useful.
It?s just LESS useful to OLGs than it is to new students.
For us OLGs, we need more high octane material to advance in our understanding, and the received scriptures have certain drawbacks, some pointed out in PFAL, and some well known academic circles. The deficiencies I pointed out are usually thought of as regrettable but not fatal. I agree.
I simply add to regrettable that if advanced PFAL students (OLGs) don?t go beyond the received scriptures, and see and master the better that God has provided in PFAL, then their growth toward "all nine all the time" is in fatal jeopardy.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 17, 2003 at 3:04.]
'suppose you asked your question of the Apostle Paul in the middle of his 7 year desert study program? Might his honest, factual answer give you cause to think that hooking up with was a loosing venture?'
Could you tell me where me where that is in the Word so I can look it up? I'm aware of Saul going into the desert and there is blinding light and he asks is it you Lord. That was his tranformation to becoming a christian and going by Paul. If that is the case then I would want to know more. I'm hungry for knowing more about God and what I can do for other Christians. As you remember Abraham with the burning bush. He had changed. Seeing the light. There would be a noticable difference. I would want to know more about the change.
'What I was paraphrasing in a highly abbreviated manner above was Paul's second letter to Timothy. It could be slightly re-written to fit John the Baptist. it could fit Most of the prophets and lifestyles they led.'
'There's another factor to include. Signs miracles and wonders happen when there's a BODY doing it. Community believing is essential. Seven of the nine manifestations are for blessing OTHERS. If there are no ohters to bless, or there are very few others, the activity of blessing is diminished when compared to communities of believing believers loving and speaking the Word.'
Mike, I thought you were in or had a fellowship? You know there are plenty of people to get started. There are a lot of people hungry for the Word. Hungry for love. Why would it be diminished? Why do you need a community of believing believers? Of course it would be lot more fun but you can still see the Word and bless people by what your learning and seeing in life. I don't know why it has to be turned into suspicion and worry that people are going to put you down when they already are anyways. Life can be fun and I believe that God wants us to enjoy life not make His word into a prison.
'Your question is like someone asking me for my pin number from the dark shadows near my ATM machine.'
Hehe. That is a funny analogy. Why would it be like a pin number? Gosh if that is how you feel and you wanted to share that love I would think you would want me to have that pin number. Well, I guess dark shadows wouldn't be so bad...hehe just give me the pin number.
As for the name calling I have been reading quite a bit of your posts and found that most of the time you cast the first stone. Sometimes your just plain not nice. That is my honest opinion.
Maybe your not explaining yourself well.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
WordWolf, exactly my point. He uses a lot of blanket accusations and then uses the poor me thing like he is being prosecuted. Yes I see the blanket accusations very clearly. I try to stay away from it just because its not in my nature to be accusing but it does stick in my gums and is very distasteful. It is great to be on the same thoughts, isn't it? Could it be? I mean could it actually be that there is a God? And He is actually working with us at the same time? ;)-->
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
It may be that I?m NOT explaining myself the best... yet.
I?m trying my best to be nice in these recent posts, because you?ve changed in your approach. Sometimes mere typing is insufficient to communicate attitudes.
The pin number analogy goes this way: if someone were to ask you FROM THE SHADOWS near your ATM for your pin number, you might wisely presume that their next request will be for your ATM card and that question #1 was the opening line of a robbery.
In other words, I was wondering out loud if your request for miracles info in my life was a trick question
Until this very recent change in approach, you?ve come across as a pretty negative and untrustworthy character to me. I don?t want to think evil of people, so just the slightest change in your approach and I?m willing to explore the sincerity behind it.
************
I think that poking around for reports of miracles is a false way to search for the truth.
Jesus said signs miracles and wonders would follow BELIEVERS confirming the Word.
So AFTER these believers that Jesus was talking about had found the truth, THEN signs miracles and wonders confirmed to them that it was the real truth they had committed themselves to when they believed.
It?s NOT that signs miracles and wonders can be used in the SEARCH for the truth to get committed to and believe.
It seems to me that maybe your question fits into the later category, where great signs are first discussed and then you move in to get in on the action.
I think that when a number of people are committed together and like minded on the truth, THEN they can profitably discuss signs miracles and wonders to confirm their commitment together.
But to shop around for OTHER people?s signs miracles and wonders is just asking for trouble. It?s not an efficient way to search for the truth. We need to search WITHIN God?s Word for truth, not in each other?s stories of signs miracles and wonders. Those stories are great for already established likeminded teams, but us grads are the exact opposite of unity at this time.
Searching within God?s Word for serious grads of PFAL is far more sophisticated than opening a KJV. The grads who want to really search within God?s Word are going to have to recognize and remember that God did a mighty work with VPW in getting those books written and distributed. OLGs who can?t see that are spiritually asleep. It?s wake up time.
***********
The paraphrasing of II Timothy was extreme. I was trying to show you that sometimes GREAT works of God are so heavily hit by the adversary that they LOOK like failures.
Paul was in prison and highly shamed when he wrote many epistles.
John the Baptist had just successfully prepared the way of the Lord, and then was thrown in prison and executed.
All the prophets just about, though they often had the believing to hear from God and proclaim it, they got their heads bashed in for it or worse.
If you, vickles, had approached any of these men of God with your question, their answer may have discouraged you, and you might have thought that God was not behind them when He was.
Your question is not only a potentially trick question for me, the hearer, like I mentioned at the start, but it may be a trick question for YOU, the poser. The answer you get from questions like that can mis-lead you.
Another way it can mis-lead you is when you ask it of someone who had GREAT lying signs and wonders going on. Your answer may sound exciting, and it may BE exciting, in the early stages, when you get hoodwinked by some devil spirits.
I think the material surrounding my chosen topic for this thread will be much more valuable to you than me telling you all the personal ways God is working in my life. Come back to PFAL and see all the ways God can work in YOUR life, IN ADDITION TO what you have now.
'There?s another factor to include. Signs miracles and wonders happen when there?s a BODY doing it. Community believing is essential. Seven of the nine manifestations are for blessing OTHERS. If there are no others to bless, or there are very few others, the activity of blessing is diminished when compared to communities of believing believers loving and speaking the Word.'
Ok lets look at the nine manifestations....
There are speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, discerning of sprits, miracles, healing, faith, word of knowledge and word of wisdom.
You say if there is no body to bless that you can't work the seven manifestations? Mike, there is a whole world out there. Are you saying that there is no one out there for healing, for faith? That you can't get the word of knowledge or the word of wisdom? What body are you talking about? The pfal body? You are totally limiting yourself on that with your beliefs. You can't discern of spirits without a body? Now that just doesn't make sense. You don't have to have a community doing it. You sound like you live on a deserted island with no way out of there and no communication with anyone.
It doesn't say it in the Word and I find it hard to believe its in the pfal books. So if your the master and I'm not please show it to me. Thanks.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
'Until this very recent change in approach, you?ve come across as a pretty negative and untrustworthy character to me. I don?t want to think evil of people, so just the slightest change in your approach and I?m willing to explore the sincerity behind it.'
Look mike, I don't really know what your talking about. I haven't had a hidden agenda. Just recently you wanted my phone number so that we can talk. You didn't think I was untrustworthy then. I haven't changed. Nor have I been that negative. I've only tried to point out things or questioned. If you think that makes me untrustworthy then I guess that is what you think. I can't nor will I try to change that. Your using an old twi tactic. Put down. I have seen a lot of put downs that you have said to others. I'm not in twi anymore and really don't have to shut up. I can honestly question. I haven't posted on here much just for the fact that I'm not going to get into that with you. I think I've stuck pretty close to speaking the Word to you. This is a forum to exchange ideas. Not for us to sit there and totally believe what you say. If you don't like it.....well...that is what you have to decide. I think its great that people can exchange ideas. This isn't a forum for us to be students and you the teacher. This is a free forum. Gosh I have to laugh when I think of you thinking I'm a suspicous character.
My question to you was an honest one. I'm not going to 'rob' you for your pin. Or maybe...oh wait a minute.....I was thinking maybe....lol sorry I couldn't resist. Lighten up mike.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
'I think that poking around for reports of miracles is a false way to search for the truth.
Jesus said signs miracles and wonders would follow BELIEVERS confirming the Word.'
I'm not poking...I'm merely asking. If your so set on trying to get us to believe everything I was just wondering if your experiencing any of that. Very honest question. You seem to want to confirm so....are you seeing signs miracles and wonders that jesus said?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
I got one post written on my word processor and ready to post and I'm going to sleep.
I'm only SUGGESTING that your question could be thought through some. I intend no insult or put down. Honest!
Please try reading my recent posts to you tomorrow. Either I failed to write it friendly enough or you didn't take it as friendly as I intended it. I'm tired and it's the best I can do for now.
It?s useful in the early stages of learning, and less useful in the advanced stages.
It?s useful for some things and not for others.
It?s usefulness is to the USER not the detached observer.
It?s usefulness takes time to develop and challenges to overcome. It?s not immediate.
It?s proof is reserved for those who come back to it with meekness.
It?s contents are what I want to discuss the most.
P.S. What I threw out about quantum was for a few I know who like that stuff. I think I properly kept the emphasis on the principle and it?s power, using quantum as a quick example. My posts are going to be irritating to many no matter how enhanced they may be.
On re-reading last night?s rounds, I found something I didn?t respond to in your posting. Actually I have discussed the same subject before here, but that?s an old story already.
You wrote: ?Mike, I thought you were in or had a fellowship? You know there are plenty of people to get started. There are a lot of people hungry for the Word. Hungry for love. Why would it be diminished? Why do you need a community of believing believers? Of course it would be lot more fun but you can still see the Word and bless people by what your learning and seeing in life. I don't know why it has to be turned into suspicion and worry that people are going to put you down when they already are anyways. Life can be fun and I believe that God wants us to enjoy life not make His word into a prison.?
This message I am slowly posting, in an amongst a variety of useful tangents and distracting derailments, is not of my own origin. I was SHOWN Dr?s last teaching in 1998, and that was one of the first in a string of hundreds of other amazing things. I?m doing my best to accurately convey or relay what I?ve been shown. Not all of what I have been shown do I fully understand, but that which I do seem to have a grasp of, I try my best to accurately post. I?m a student in this, and it?s very enjoyable when I?m in the receiving mode, as in ?receive, retain, release.?
Yes, life can be fun, and the essence of life is God and His Word and His Son, so at my fellowship I have a lot of fun. Many times at GS, when I?m in a ?release? mode, it?s also fun, although sometimes it?s hard work too, with maybe a little more of the spiritual joy than the natural happiness.
My fellowship is an hour?s drive away in rather intense freeway traffic. Most of the people in this well established twig (grads from ?69), live that same hour?s drive away from me. Most of the grads who live nearby me have M&A?d me long before it became a household word, these grads being mostly Geerites, then less in number CES types, and then lastly what were then Craigites. I asked too many questions of the leaders, and even had follow-up questions planned for the few times anyone had the wherewithal to deal with a first question. I'm not well liked. I went against the system, or systemS.
So, having no children, no wife, and no nearby grads fellowship with, I have LOTS of time for this ?receive, retain, release? program of mine.
Since 1998, I have come to regard, as a RELATIVELY lower priority, the releasing to the unsaved masses, the non-grads, and the denominational type Christians, COMPARED to the situation I see within my own household, the PFAL grad household. Charity begins at home, and that?s where I see the GREATEST need, fixing this ministry meltdown that started in the 1982-85 period. I have been shown massive things about what Dr put in the record during that period that was JUST FOR US NOW! In spite of the resistance, I?m having a sometimes fun time and an always joyous time in presenting those things that slipped by all of us (even you alfakat).
I do minimally witness to people ?on the street? but only minimally, having no local trustworthy fellowship to bring them to, and my long distance fellowship being essentially a very special ?grad night? dedicated to mastering PFAL, and not so much to presenting it to new people. I see it as an "emergency grad night" that's been going for 7 years of so. Even when we at this special grad fellowship occasionally DID bring in a few non-grads, there was no national support system for them like the one we had when we first took root. We?ve found that such a support system is quite necessary.
I still visit other churches occasionally, as I always have. I?ve reported here how I regularly visited trinitarian churches as part of my verification of Dr in the 70?s. I?ve shopped dozens of churches through the past 30 years. They are still the same lame, crippled, pitiful traps for a lot of decent people they were when I first started shopping. Sure I see some decent and useful things here and there, but none of them are headed for ?all nine all the time? or anything like it. I?d rather hang out with pagans than denominational types, on the whole. Sure there are a few exceptions, but they?re rare and temporary. Churchianity sucks for the EXACT same factors that took TWI down, it was just that an unusually high concentration of these corrupting factors that were necessary to bring down TWI, due to the massive amount of genuine Word there.
Vickles, it?s not that I need a community of PFAL grad believers, it?s that GOD NEEDS A COMMUNITY of BELIEVING BELIEVERS. We were taught in the AC about the temperature of believing and ?community believing? as great factors in the power. Corinthians mentions the way the power comes ?IN THE CHURCH? through the worship manifestations. Yes, some manifestations can be operated by the Lone Ranger, but with Tonto & Co. it moves MUCH better.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 17, 2003 at 13:18.]
Why is it when you ever receive any warranted criticism you resort to name calling? It would appear that you are being childish.
It is biblically dishonest to withhold scriptural answers from people who ask genuine questions. In my last post I brought up your dishonest handling of questions.
The reason I did not list my question was to save you work. I am no longer interested in hearing the answer from you. You have demonstrated yourself to be an untrustworthy person who is unfit to answer important spiritual questions.
However, coming from a spiritualist background I am intrigued as to how you will answer Steve's inquiry. Perhaps you might put the effort you would have spent on my question to answer to Steve's compelling query.
I only come to this thread for entertainment purposes. So do not spend any of your precious time on my question.
personally I hold to my original post that Mike is a gutless coward. Hiding behind the sham of the hidden meanings of pfal to make hime appear stronger and more powerful than us.
When he is asked a tough question he responds with threats, accusations and name calling. He besmirches the Holy Word of God by delegating it below the works of a reprobate.
Calling somone untrustworthy because they asked a tough question is so childish.
You are a child mike in every way. Knowledge puffeth up, but the love of God ediies.
You wrote: ?Calling somone untrustworthy because they asked a tough question is so childish.?
But I said something different than what you picked up. I wrote: ?Until this very recent change in approach, you?ve come across as a pretty negative and untrustworthy character to me. I don?t want to think evil of people, so just the slightest change in your approach and I?m willing to explore the sincerity behind it.?
You see, I softened it with ?come across ... to me? and it was connected to PRIOR postings, and NOT this recent question of hers. I did spend quite a bit of time with her in answering it too.
Maybe there are other things like this you?ve missed in the details of what I post.
********
I?m WELL aware of the fact that my MOST powerful storehouse of material will at times make me to appear as powerful, in a 5-senses way. I have pointed out that I am NOT the message, but the message is the message. It wasn?t accepted then, and it looks like it wont now. Maybe later.
Ok, we can get into your question at another time or by e-mail if you so desire. It?s always been my heart to answer anything I can, but sometimes the answer (or the sequencing of the parts to the answer) is not accepted. I think that?s the case between us. I suggest you lighten up and relax a little. If you hadn?t gotten so huffy in our e-mailing I?d have continued answering more to your ?where to fellowship? question. Actually, I think it was you that broke off that communication, not me.
Steve?s question about discerning spirits has already enjoyed some answering, but again to be received with dissatisfaction. I?m not done, but here?s another nutshell on how I?ve already answered it here.
For a special group of people that God called out for a special job, PFAL grads that is, God has also provided the perfect arena for learning revelation and importation manifestations. This arena is the PFAL writings. As we master those special writings of PFAL with our 5-senses, God will teach us HIS perspective and HE will filter out the adversary?s.
So, you might not like this answer, but there it is.
Master PFAL and you can hear the TRUE GOD?S direct voice better (and filter out Satan?s) than anyone?s been able to since the first century.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
vickles
I think I'm being ignored.....
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Mike
vickles,
Your question is like someone asking me for my pin number from the dark shadows near my ATM machine.
You want me to put all MY confirming evidence into your trusted hands?
I suppose if my miracles are impressive enough you'll repent of all this negativity and come back to PFAL? Or will it be you will get Steve to sniff out "lying signs and wonders" ? Then you'll try to "counsel" me to quit PFAL.
I suppose if they aren't impressive then you'll try to "counsel" me to quit PFAL.
Work with me on this, ok vickles, and let's hash out the ulterior reason you have for asking me that.
Why do you ask?
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Mike
vickles,
I pointed out EWB's childish behavior because, unlike many others here, I think he has a heart to change. Pointing out an area of needed change to someone can be a loving thing, and that's the heart I put into that. With many others I wouldn't bother.
And, once again, the subject is me...
Have you had any thoughts on the topic lately?
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GarthP2000
"I suppose if my miracles are impressive enough ..." yadayada.
Miracles? What miracles?? I don't see no steenkin' miracles!
Cynic, where are you? Get your country club butt back here, and show Smikeol what you're made of.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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vickles
I don't really have an ulterior reason. I really would like to know. What does trust have to do about it? If someone is having results about it I would like to know. That is all. I guess you don't know me but I don't play games like that. I may be sarcastic at times but I think I'm nicer than most. Does everyone have to have an ulterior motive? What if you were having those signs, miracles, and wonders? What if you were having those times of excitement of healing and getting people born again? Wouldn't you want to share them and not worry about the motives?
I guess I was just thinking about myself and all the people here and if something happened that was just the greatest thing ever I would want people to know about it. I would say to you oh my gosh I saw someone healed today. Or I got someone born again today. Or someone spoke in tongues for the first time today. You see where I'm coming from? I'm asking because I really want to know. If not that is fine.
I really don't like what you have to say just because you put others down. But I would like to hear the positives like the signs, miracles and wonders that you do see. I would like to see what happens when you put your beliefs in action. Not just words. We can say anything and they are just words unless we put them in practice.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Mike
vickles,
Sharing with people in a casual setting is a lot different that the adversarial posting situation here. I want to post data that I believe people need to make fully informed decisions. I?m not here to be chummy or to win people over to my cause.
When I get to know someone via e-mail a little better or by phone, the kinds of questions you asked are very appropriate. But here, if you yourself are not going to pounce on every detail of my answer, someone else will. They do no matter what I post, but with some topics the distraction factor is greater than others. I?m talking about the distraction to other readers and also the distraction to me as a writer here.
I have, due to my peculiar past tastes and experiences, have found a lot of data that had been successfully hidden for over a decade. Because God blessed me with all this data, my responsibility is to get it out. The signs, miracles, and wonders in MY life that are meaningful to ME are not going to be as meaningful to others. Dr often taught that his ministry was NOT built on testimonials, and he gave reasons. The ?Heart? newspaper was a major experimental departure from this older policy of minimizing testimonials. Dr similarly taught that it?s not useful to teach personal experiences insofar that they become merged with doctrine. There are massive reasons for these policies as he taught us.
Suppose I answered your question with something like:
?Well God is blessing me a lot with information, but unfortunately my health situation could use a little help, and I?m still in jail. Maybe next year I?ll be released. Last year was pretty bad.?
Go ahead and analyze. Would a post like that from me HELP or HURT my message?
What I was paraphrasing in a highly abbreviated manner above was Paul?s second letter to Timothy. It could be slightly re-written to fit John the Baptist. It could fit MOST of the prophets and the lifestyles they led.
There?s another factor to include. Signs miracles and wonders happen when there?s a BODY doing it. Community believing is essential. Seven of the nine manifestations are for blessing OTHERS. If there are no others to bless, or there are very few others, the activity of blessing is diminished when compared to communities of believing believers loving and speaking the Word.
Suppose you asked your question of the Apostle Paul in the middle of his 7 year desert study program? Might his honest, factual answer give you cause to think that hooking up with was a loosing venture?
I might ask you, putting aside the ulterior motive challenge, to ponder this: what will you do with the answer?
I find this a VERY important part of the whole question formulation process. Asking this question of utility about another question is a VERY useful policy. It has proved to be a major key in quantum physics.
I still urge you to ask deep questions about the material and not me. That?s where the action is.
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Mike
vickles,
As for putting others down, I do my best to separate the PERSON from their words, actions, deeds, attitudes, errors. I try to see the person on one side of a line and the error on the other. Sometimes in a fast moving and adversarial atmosphere like this, the line gets blurred from a number of things. Do you get equally offended at all the names and put downs I endure here? Do you even notice them?
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Mike
cynic,
Are you aware of the MAJOR remote context of all those quotes of mine you posted regarding the ?tattered remnants? categorization of the received scriptures?
You may have missed my introduction of the term OLG, but it was to identify a SUBSET of people my message (and hence my remarks about the condition or the received scriptures) is addressed to.
When it comes to prePFAL people, the KJV is fine, as it was a requirement of new students and it is referred to on every page of PFAL, and the pages of PFAL encourage thorough reading and checking contexts.
It is implied in my proPFAL message that the KJV is useful.
It?s just LESS useful to OLGs than it is to new students.
For us OLGs, we need more high octane material to advance in our understanding, and the received scriptures have certain drawbacks, some pointed out in PFAL, and some well known academic circles. The deficiencies I pointed out are usually thought of as regrettable but not fatal. I agree.
I simply add to regrettable that if advanced PFAL students (OLGs) don?t go beyond the received scriptures, and see and master the better that God has provided in PFAL, then their growth toward "all nine all the time" is in fatal jeopardy.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 17, 2003 at 3:04.]
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vickles
'suppose you asked your question of the Apostle Paul in the middle of his 7 year desert study program? Might his honest, factual answer give you cause to think that hooking up with was a loosing venture?'
Could you tell me where me where that is in the Word so I can look it up? I'm aware of Saul going into the desert and there is blinding light and he asks is it you Lord. That was his tranformation to becoming a christian and going by Paul. If that is the case then I would want to know more. I'm hungry for knowing more about God and what I can do for other Christians. As you remember Abraham with the burning bush. He had changed. Seeing the light. There would be a noticable difference. I would want to know more about the change.
'What I was paraphrasing in a highly abbreviated manner above was Paul's second letter to Timothy. It could be slightly re-written to fit John the Baptist. it could fit Most of the prophets and lifestyles they led.'
Now, I'm lost. Paraphrasing what? Please explain that.
'There's another factor to include. Signs miracles and wonders happen when there's a BODY doing it. Community believing is essential. Seven of the nine manifestations are for blessing OTHERS. If there are no ohters to bless, or there are very few others, the activity of blessing is diminished when compared to communities of believing believers loving and speaking the Word.'
Mike, I thought you were in or had a fellowship? You know there are plenty of people to get started. There are a lot of people hungry for the Word. Hungry for love. Why would it be diminished? Why do you need a community of believing believers? Of course it would be lot more fun but you can still see the Word and bless people by what your learning and seeing in life. I don't know why it has to be turned into suspicion and worry that people are going to put you down when they already are anyways. Life can be fun and I believe that God wants us to enjoy life not make His word into a prison.
'Your question is like someone asking me for my pin number from the dark shadows near my ATM machine.'
Hehe. That is a funny analogy. Why would it be like a pin number? Gosh if that is how you feel and you wanted to share that love I would think you would want me to have that pin number. Well, I guess dark shadows wouldn't be so bad...hehe just give me the pin number.
As for the name calling I have been reading quite a bit of your posts and found that most of the time you cast the first stone. Sometimes your just plain not nice. That is my honest opinion.
Maybe your not explaining yourself well.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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WordWolf
Steve, in case you missed it, Mike's answer to
how you can tell what kind of spirit you're
hearing from is by studying God's Word.
Since Mike's stance is that pfal is the most
accurate version of "God's Word" extant, his
answer is you'll know by studying the pfal
materials.
-------------------------------------------
Mike,
I'm not sure you're aware of it, but your
stated position on "the Bible" is inconsistent.
On the one hand, you called it "tattered
remnants", and said that over time, it's been
tampered with too often to be trusted as
reliable and accurate.
On the other hand, y0u're also claiming that
it IS useful to people, albeit non-pfal'ers.
That's a lot like saying
"it's full of lies and errors, except where
it's true." "It's burning hot, except when it's
cold." You get the idea.
If it's useful to anyone in regards to the
things of God, then, by definition, it is NOT
the "tattered remnants" you vilified it as
early on.
Pick a position, Mike. Inconsistency ill
behooves you.
BTW, Mike....
Vickles had a perfectly legitimate question.
Your claim since your arrival is that pfal is
far superior than anything any other Christian
can offer out there. If it's REALLY that much
better, then surely the "performance" test will
show something, right? If it REALLY is the
keys to power, revelation, etc, and YOU'RE the
only one who gets it so far, then you should be
getting, at the very LEAST, revelation and
miracles and things to match the top non-pfal
Christians.
Look-
If I came out and announced that I was producing
a new car, faster than any currently on the
market, we could go to the track or the
"proving grounds" and put it to the test.
We could compare its performance to those of
other cars on the market. If the other cars
outperformed it, we'd know I was full of hot
air. If my car outperformed all the others, it
would be proven to at least be of excellent
quality, and among the best on the market.
That's easy to test.
One of the reasons PFAL was an easy sell is that
it promised results in the physical realm:
red curtains, financial prosperity, all needs
met fairly easily, and signs, miracles and
wonders when you got to the Advanced class.
So, this is an old question that's been
discussed on different subjects.
It's a simple question, and, as you can see,
an honest one. In fact, it was inevitable
that someone ask it. Frankly, I'm surprised
you didn't expect it before now. No need to
'blame' Vickles because she asked for proof of
one of your claims.
----------------------------------------------
No, I'm not particularly interested in that
answer-that was Vickles. I just call your
reaction an unfair one.
-------------------------------------------
PS. Please stop throwing around scientific and
technical terms unless you're prepared to
discuss them in their proper context.
You're latest reference to "quantum physics"
(6/17/03, 2:24am) had no relevance to its post,
and only served to "name-drop". It DOESN'T
make you look smarter because you know how to
use it in a sentence. It DOESN'T have any
relevance to the message you're trying to
peddle here. It DOESN'T enhance your posts.
---------------------------------------------
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WordWolf
Vickles,
when you say Mike usually casts the first stone,
are you talking about like when he made the
blanket accusation that every single person on
the threads where we examined pfal doctrine and
its errors were all "unfit stewards", and
claimed we couldn't read? I wasn't sure most
people had noticed that....
Funny, we posted simultaneously, and brushed
the same subjects.
:)-->
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vickles
WordWolf, exactly my point. He uses a lot of blanket accusations and then uses the poor me thing like he is being prosecuted. Yes I see the blanket accusations very clearly. I try to stay away from it just because its not in my nature to be accusing but it does stick in my gums and is very distasteful. It is great to be on the same thoughts, isn't it? Could it be? I mean could it actually be that there is a God? And He is actually working with us at the same time?
;)-->
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Mike
vickles,
It may be that I?m NOT explaining myself the best... yet.
I?m trying my best to be nice in these recent posts, because you?ve changed in your approach. Sometimes mere typing is insufficient to communicate attitudes.
The pin number analogy goes this way: if someone were to ask you FROM THE SHADOWS near your ATM for your pin number, you might wisely presume that their next request will be for your ATM card and that question #1 was the opening line of a robbery.
In other words, I was wondering out loud if your request for miracles info in my life was a trick question
Until this very recent change in approach, you?ve come across as a pretty negative and untrustworthy character to me. I don?t want to think evil of people, so just the slightest change in your approach and I?m willing to explore the sincerity behind it.
************
I think that poking around for reports of miracles is a false way to search for the truth.
Jesus said signs miracles and wonders would follow BELIEVERS confirming the Word.
So AFTER these believers that Jesus was talking about had found the truth, THEN signs miracles and wonders confirmed to them that it was the real truth they had committed themselves to when they believed.
It?s NOT that signs miracles and wonders can be used in the SEARCH for the truth to get committed to and believe.
It seems to me that maybe your question fits into the later category, where great signs are first discussed and then you move in to get in on the action.
I think that when a number of people are committed together and like minded on the truth, THEN they can profitably discuss signs miracles and wonders to confirm their commitment together.
But to shop around for OTHER people?s signs miracles and wonders is just asking for trouble. It?s not an efficient way to search for the truth. We need to search WITHIN God?s Word for truth, not in each other?s stories of signs miracles and wonders. Those stories are great for already established likeminded teams, but us grads are the exact opposite of unity at this time.
Searching within God?s Word for serious grads of PFAL is far more sophisticated than opening a KJV. The grads who want to really search within God?s Word are going to have to recognize and remember that God did a mighty work with VPW in getting those books written and distributed. OLGs who can?t see that are spiritually asleep. It?s wake up time.
***********
The paraphrasing of II Timothy was extreme. I was trying to show you that sometimes GREAT works of God are so heavily hit by the adversary that they LOOK like failures.
Paul was in prison and highly shamed when he wrote many epistles.
John the Baptist had just successfully prepared the way of the Lord, and then was thrown in prison and executed.
All the prophets just about, though they often had the believing to hear from God and proclaim it, they got their heads bashed in for it or worse.
If you, vickles, had approached any of these men of God with your question, their answer may have discouraged you, and you might have thought that God was not behind them when He was.
Your question is not only a potentially trick question for me, the hearer, like I mentioned at the start, but it may be a trick question for YOU, the poser. The answer you get from questions like that can mis-lead you.
Another way it can mis-lead you is when you ask it of someone who had GREAT lying signs and wonders going on. Your answer may sound exciting, and it may BE exciting, in the early stages, when you get hoodwinked by some devil spirits.
I think the material surrounding my chosen topic for this thread will be much more valuable to you than me telling you all the personal ways God is working in my life. Come back to PFAL and see all the ways God can work in YOUR life, IN ADDITION TO what you have now.
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vickles
'There?s another factor to include. Signs miracles and wonders happen when there?s a BODY doing it. Community believing is essential. Seven of the nine manifestations are for blessing OTHERS. If there are no others to bless, or there are very few others, the activity of blessing is diminished when compared to communities of believing believers loving and speaking the Word.'
Ok lets look at the nine manifestations....
There are speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, discerning of sprits, miracles, healing, faith, word of knowledge and word of wisdom.
You say if there is no body to bless that you can't work the seven manifestations? Mike, there is a whole world out there. Are you saying that there is no one out there for healing, for faith? That you can't get the word of knowledge or the word of wisdom? What body are you talking about? The pfal body? You are totally limiting yourself on that with your beliefs. You can't discern of spirits without a body? Now that just doesn't make sense. You don't have to have a community doing it. You sound like you live on a deserted island with no way out of there and no communication with anyone.
It doesn't say it in the Word and I find it hard to believe its in the pfal books. So if your the master and I'm not please show it to me. Thanks.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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vickles
'Until this very recent change in approach, you?ve come across as a pretty negative and untrustworthy character to me. I don?t want to think evil of people, so just the slightest change in your approach and I?m willing to explore the sincerity behind it.'
Look mike, I don't really know what your talking about. I haven't had a hidden agenda. Just recently you wanted my phone number so that we can talk. You didn't think I was untrustworthy then. I haven't changed. Nor have I been that negative. I've only tried to point out things or questioned. If you think that makes me untrustworthy then I guess that is what you think. I can't nor will I try to change that. Your using an old twi tactic. Put down. I have seen a lot of put downs that you have said to others. I'm not in twi anymore and really don't have to shut up. I can honestly question. I haven't posted on here much just for the fact that I'm not going to get into that with you. I think I've stuck pretty close to speaking the Word to you. This is a forum to exchange ideas. Not for us to sit there and totally believe what you say. If you don't like it.....well...that is what you have to decide. I think its great that people can exchange ideas. This isn't a forum for us to be students and you the teacher. This is a free forum. Gosh I have to laugh when I think of you thinking I'm a suspicous character.
My question to you was an honest one. I'm not going to 'rob' you for your pin. Or maybe...oh wait a minute.....I was thinking maybe....lol sorry I couldn't resist. Lighten up mike.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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vickles
'I think that poking around for reports of miracles is a false way to search for the truth.
Jesus said signs miracles and wonders would follow BELIEVERS confirming the Word.'
I'm not poking...I'm merely asking. If your so set on trying to get us to believe everything I was just wondering if your experiencing any of that. Very honest question. You seem to want to confirm so....are you seeing signs miracles and wonders that jesus said?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Mike
vickles,
I'm light. I'm also tired. Maybe you are too.
I got one post written on my word processor and ready to post and I'm going to sleep.
I'm only SUGGESTING that your question could be thought through some. I intend no insult or put down. Honest!
Please try reading my recent posts to you tomorrow. Either I failed to write it friendly enough or you didn't take it as friendly as I intended it. I'm tired and it's the best I can do for now.
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Mike
WordWolf,
It?s useful in the early stages of learning, and less useful in the advanced stages.
It?s useful for some things and not for others.
It?s usefulness is to the USER not the detached observer.
It?s usefulness takes time to develop and challenges to overcome. It?s not immediate.
It?s proof is reserved for those who come back to it with meekness.
It?s contents are what I want to discuss the most.
P.S. What I threw out about quantum was for a few I know who like that stuff. I think I properly kept the emphasis on the principle and it?s power, using quantum as a quick example. My posts are going to be irritating to many no matter how enhanced they may be.
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Mike
vickles,
YES! I'm seeing them.
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Mike
vickles,
On re-reading last night?s rounds, I found something I didn?t respond to in your posting. Actually I have discussed the same subject before here, but that?s an old story already.
You wrote: ?Mike, I thought you were in or had a fellowship? You know there are plenty of people to get started. There are a lot of people hungry for the Word. Hungry for love. Why would it be diminished? Why do you need a community of believing believers? Of course it would be lot more fun but you can still see the Word and bless people by what your learning and seeing in life. I don't know why it has to be turned into suspicion and worry that people are going to put you down when they already are anyways. Life can be fun and I believe that God wants us to enjoy life not make His word into a prison.?
This message I am slowly posting, in an amongst a variety of useful tangents and distracting derailments, is not of my own origin. I was SHOWN Dr?s last teaching in 1998, and that was one of the first in a string of hundreds of other amazing things. I?m doing my best to accurately convey or relay what I?ve been shown. Not all of what I have been shown do I fully understand, but that which I do seem to have a grasp of, I try my best to accurately post. I?m a student in this, and it?s very enjoyable when I?m in the receiving mode, as in ?receive, retain, release.?
Yes, life can be fun, and the essence of life is God and His Word and His Son, so at my fellowship I have a lot of fun. Many times at GS, when I?m in a ?release? mode, it?s also fun, although sometimes it?s hard work too, with maybe a little more of the spiritual joy than the natural happiness.
My fellowship is an hour?s drive away in rather intense freeway traffic. Most of the people in this well established twig (grads from ?69), live that same hour?s drive away from me. Most of the grads who live nearby me have M&A?d me long before it became a household word, these grads being mostly Geerites, then less in number CES types, and then lastly what were then Craigites. I asked too many questions of the leaders, and even had follow-up questions planned for the few times anyone had the wherewithal to deal with a first question. I'm not well liked. I went against the system, or systemS.
So, having no children, no wife, and no nearby grads fellowship with, I have LOTS of time for this ?receive, retain, release? program of mine.
Since 1998, I have come to regard, as a RELATIVELY lower priority, the releasing to the unsaved masses, the non-grads, and the denominational type Christians, COMPARED to the situation I see within my own household, the PFAL grad household. Charity begins at home, and that?s where I see the GREATEST need, fixing this ministry meltdown that started in the 1982-85 period. I have been shown massive things about what Dr put in the record during that period that was JUST FOR US NOW! In spite of the resistance, I?m having a sometimes fun time and an always joyous time in presenting those things that slipped by all of us (even you alfakat).
I do minimally witness to people ?on the street? but only minimally, having no local trustworthy fellowship to bring them to, and my long distance fellowship being essentially a very special ?grad night? dedicated to mastering PFAL, and not so much to presenting it to new people. I see it as an "emergency grad night" that's been going for 7 years of so. Even when we at this special grad fellowship occasionally DID bring in a few non-grads, there was no national support system for them like the one we had when we first took root. We?ve found that such a support system is quite necessary.
I still visit other churches occasionally, as I always have. I?ve reported here how I regularly visited trinitarian churches as part of my verification of Dr in the 70?s. I?ve shopped dozens of churches through the past 30 years. They are still the same lame, crippled, pitiful traps for a lot of decent people they were when I first started shopping. Sure I see some decent and useful things here and there, but none of them are headed for ?all nine all the time? or anything like it. I?d rather hang out with pagans than denominational types, on the whole. Sure there are a few exceptions, but they?re rare and temporary. Churchianity sucks for the EXACT same factors that took TWI down, it was just that an unusually high concentration of these corrupting factors that were necessary to bring down TWI, due to the massive amount of genuine Word there.
Vickles, it?s not that I need a community of PFAL grad believers, it?s that GOD NEEDS A COMMUNITY of BELIEVING BELIEVERS. We were taught in the AC about the temperature of believing and ?community believing? as great factors in the power. Corinthians mentions the way the power comes ?IN THE CHURCH? through the worship manifestations. Yes, some manifestations can be operated by the Lone Ranger, but with Tonto & Co. it moves MUCH better.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 17, 2003 at 13:18.]
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Mike:
Why is it when you ever receive any warranted criticism you resort to name calling? It would appear that you are being childish.
It is biblically dishonest to withhold scriptural answers from people who ask genuine questions. In my last post I brought up your dishonest handling of questions.
The reason I did not list my question was to save you work. I am no longer interested in hearing the answer from you. You have demonstrated yourself to be an untrustworthy person who is unfit to answer important spiritual questions.
However, coming from a spiritualist background I am intrigued as to how you will answer Steve's inquiry. Perhaps you might put the effort you would have spent on my question to answer to Steve's compelling query.
I only come to this thread for entertainment purposes. So do not spend any of your precious time on my question.
EWB
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def59
personally I hold to my original post that Mike is a gutless coward. Hiding behind the sham of the hidden meanings of pfal to make hime appear stronger and more powerful than us.
When he is asked a tough question he responds with threats, accusations and name calling. He besmirches the Holy Word of God by delegating it below the works of a reprobate.
Calling somone untrustworthy because they asked a tough question is so childish.
You are a child mike in every way. Knowledge puffeth up, but the love of God ediies.
h
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Mike
def59,
I think you mis-read my post to vickles.
You wrote: ?Calling somone untrustworthy because they asked a tough question is so childish.?
But I said something different than what you picked up. I wrote: ?Until this very recent change in approach, you?ve come across as a pretty negative and untrustworthy character to me. I don?t want to think evil of people, so just the slightest change in your approach and I?m willing to explore the sincerity behind it.?
You see, I softened it with ?come across ... to me? and it was connected to PRIOR postings, and NOT this recent question of hers. I did spend quite a bit of time with her in answering it too.
Maybe there are other things like this you?ve missed in the details of what I post.
********
I?m WELL aware of the fact that my MOST powerful storehouse of material will at times make me to appear as powerful, in a 5-senses way. I have pointed out that I am NOT the message, but the message is the message. It wasn?t accepted then, and it looks like it wont now. Maybe later.
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Mike
EWB,
Ok, we can get into your question at another time or by e-mail if you so desire. It?s always been my heart to answer anything I can, but sometimes the answer (or the sequencing of the parts to the answer) is not accepted. I think that?s the case between us. I suggest you lighten up and relax a little. If you hadn?t gotten so huffy in our e-mailing I?d have continued answering more to your ?where to fellowship? question. Actually, I think it was you that broke off that communication, not me.
Steve?s question about discerning spirits has already enjoyed some answering, but again to be received with dissatisfaction. I?m not done, but here?s another nutshell on how I?ve already answered it here.
For a special group of people that God called out for a special job, PFAL grads that is, God has also provided the perfect arena for learning revelation and importation manifestations. This arena is the PFAL writings. As we master those special writings of PFAL with our 5-senses, God will teach us HIS perspective and HE will filter out the adversary?s.
So, you might not like this answer, but there it is.
Master PFAL and you can hear the TRUE GOD?S direct voice better (and filter out Satan?s) than anyone?s been able to since the first century.
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