Again, because you heart is not engaged, you misunderstood my criticism of your approach.
No you didn?t write the words ?Mike, you?re possessed.?
You seem to focus on technicalities, and not heart.
Technically, it's factual that you did not wite that I was possessed. Technically, you DID write that I was listening to spirits, so that could mean possession, oppression, or phenomena. So, technically, if I were to be correct in describing your approach on this point, then I?d have had to say that you wrote that I was afflicted by one to those three I just mentioned.
But, Steve, that?s NOT what I meant when I complained. What I meant was that you were resorting to a device that Craig and the Corpse Henchmen often employed in their intimidation campaigns. It?s the device of dropping the particulars of a conversation, debate, or argument, and accusing the opponent of being under the influence of spirits, and therefore all the particulars of the topic can be thrown out.
As time went by most people lost track of the differences between all these three types of influence and possession became the only one many could think of. I?ve complained here a lot of this confusion of possession with oppression.
If you look real hard, you?ll see that ONE of the times I cried ?Foul? at your approach I used the phrase ?possessed or oppressed? to cue you and/or any careful readers.
So there?s this device of ?intimidation and info sweeping? that ruined many interactions between people, because it worked so well, and the users were seduced into the power it brought item. They?d get real skilled at saying ?You?re possessed? without saying it.
If that exact sentence were said over and over it would lose it?s punch, but if it were subtly implied, and never overtly stated, then it would actually carry MORE punch because then there?s the element of uncertainty in the hearer. Hinting also provides a back door for the issuer in case something goes wrong, and he needs to take it back. It?s easier to take back a hint than a proclamation.
So, instead of labeling your approach the ?intimidation and info sweeping? technique, which is an accurate descriptive name, I called your game by it?s more intimately known and more crude title of the ?You?re possessed!? technique.
Steve, I think it?s crude and stupid to dredge up the ?You?re possessed!? technique. When I was addressing to the spirits you got this from and letting them know I know who they are, the ones who ruined the ministry, you mistakenly thought I was directing my comments to you.
BTW, I feel the same about Columbo, and that?s why a cheap imitation of him doesn?t do it for me.
Have you found any more understanding on those terribly difficult Blue Book pages 23 and 24?
Have you found any more passages of Dr?s that can shed light on his terribly cryptic comments on those two pages? This may be one of the most read books in the ministry, and yet it totally slipped past all of us that pages 23 and 24 of the Blue Book don?t make sense. Columbo will be proud of you, Steve, for spotting this glaring error.
Danny - It's always good to hear from you. Do you read "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"? If you are an OLG, we could start the League of Extraordinary OLGs. Being invisible should certainly qualify you!
No, I never did attain the position of an "OLG" - a "CIM" (cog-in-the-machine)
perhaps (lol!)
My son loves "The Justice League" on the cartoon channel.
The way I defined OLG was to include WOW's and Advanced Class grads and anyone who had a chance to grow spiritually after first taking the class and start functioning by 1982 or so, and in the SPIRITUAL Body of Christ, and not so much the body of the 5-senses corporate structure.
I thought that maybe there are other explanations for the disappearance of the Wierwille apologists, but this is backed up by evidence, and not a guess.
They were probably really run off by the gross negativity sometimes here (it almost works on me sometimes). I?m sure some had simply run out of bullets. Bless their hearts, but unless they?ve been hard at work mastering PFAL for some time, they just are no match for the likes of the PFAL antagonists here. Sometimes I?m just barely ahead of the latest twists that come up here, where I read something one day in PFAL and (BOOM!) someone here challenges me on that same thing the next day, and I?d have been hard pressed for the answer had I not been currently studying.
I?d like to think the Wierwille apologists are reading these discussions and learning to crack their books again, and not rely on old paradigms and memories of what?s supposed to be in there. I?d like to think they are having a grand time mastering PFAL and finally finding out why Dr told us to do it so many times.
The evidence that this guess has foundation is that I get e-mails occasionally from them. Once in a blue moon they even post a note here to the effect that I?m doing a good job. A couple of people signed up at GS just to get my e-mail address and support my efforts and have never posted.
Won?t Mark be happy if they all come back to GreaseSpot in the great strength God is giving to all who come back to PFAL?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 1:15.]
The clear answers I'm giving here are only clear to those who obey the revelation God gave Dr at the end of his life that we must master PFAL.
The clear answers are in PFAL, not my posts alone. You've got to have your head in PFAL to get clearness from me.
If you chose to disobey God and wing it on you own, and with your own chosen teachers, guiding yourself by your own light, then you cannot understand me.
You wrote: ?Your version of vp as the stern general with a job to do makes me want to puke..... ?
That?s probably because it?s a new idea to you. Give it some time to settle.
The adversary was all over the ministry trying constantly to get it to stop delivering this Word to people. It was a very intense struggle. Working at HQ or going into the Corps or going out WOW should have been viewed like signing up for the front lines in a war. In the early 70?s we were told this very thing about the spiritual action being pretty tough on the front lines. Before I went to work at HQ I was told this and I pondered it deeply. Even still I was surprised at how difficult it was at HQ. The mind games and politics there was very thick, even in the 76-78 period I was there. I saw how so many people would get into head trips about the great importance of THEIR spiritual project over all others. I too was influenced by these spirits at times there. It was thick.
To look at Dr?s job of coordinating that large company with all those attacks both from without and from within, for Dr to be ANYTHING less that a VERY tough, mean general would mean certain victory for the adversary.
Because Dr was so tough (and for many other reasons) he did get the job done. God?s revelation was put into written form, printed into thousands of copies, and distributed to thousands of locations around the world.
Your nausea can be alleviated some by believing that those who were hit with friendly fire, or who SEEMED to get expended, will be more than rewarded by God for their contributions to this successful undertaking of God?s to get His in the world again in a form perfect enough to get the perfectly renewed mind built in us.
Dr didn?t single handedly get this job done. He had a lot of help.
Now it?s time for us to get OUR job done: Mastering this Word that came via PFAL.
I was just stating the obvious in a gentle manner. Mike is not accomplishing his goal of winning people to his version of PFAL. For Mike this is definitely more than a personal belief system. He is proselitizing everyone here with his religious beliefs. He is putting out pages and pages of his religious material. Hey, if you like it by all means help yourself. However, you have never to my knowledge stated a belief in the bible, God or Jesus Christ. Now tell me. Have I ever once here complained about your perceived lack of faith? And for that matter have I ever complained about anyone's lack of faith here?
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on June 15, 2003 at 3:38.]
quote:Ditto for the job Dr was given to do. It was a job that necessitated going against the god of this world in a way he hasn?t been challenged for 2000 years. Tough generals in wars MUST be mean, mean, mean or they lose the war.
No, Mike, they don't have to be "mean" especially in how they relate to and treat those they they have been entrusted to lead. Meanness implies cruelty, maliciousness and ill temperment. While a good general may want the enemy to percieve him as "mean", he cannot treat his own soldiers with the same 'meaness' and expect them to faithfully carry on the fight. Wars are not won by meanness, they are won by using superior strategies and tacticts. A good general leads by example.
God exhorts Christians to be kind, gentle and loving, especially to one another. Wierwille was not exempted from these because of being some great spiritual general or because of the urgency of the battle. You are making excuses.
quote:Volunteers who join the generals staff should be prepared for a rough ride. Anyone who thinks it?s going to be a sweet fellowship picnic is not paying attention to the spiritual realities. We?ve got to look at the spiritual side of what happened to us in our Way experience.
Being a Christian may not always be a "sweet fellowship picnic", but we certainly should not expect or allow ourselves to be betrayed and abused by a so-called "general". Wierwille lost his commission (if he ever had one) when he began to use his rank for personal gain and personal pleasures, while betrying and abusing those who looked up to him for guidance and help.
No Mike, God does not need mean, cruel or viscious people to do his bidding or to lead His people.
quote:When it finally dawns on you folks just exactly what Dr was sent to do for God and us, and that he succeeded, then all these perplexing situations that did arise will melt away. They?ll be GONE!
Horsepucky! Mike, when you realize just exactly what Christ was sent to do for us, and that HE suceeded, then you will realize that God's Word was alive and well before Wierwille came along.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
'Mike, when you realize just exactly what Christ was sent to do for us, and that HE suceeded, then you will realize that God's Word was alive and well before Wierwille came along.'
Goey, Amen to that!!!!
Mike, I hope that was a typo that you wrote. I think it should read that Jesus Christ was sent to us. Its Christ that is our savior not vpw. Its through Christ that we are healed and its through Him that we are delivered. If the Word had meant vpw it would have said it.
By saying that vpw had to be mean to get things done by what spirit was he walking with? How was he a general? I have heard of devil spirits termed in that way.
In all the writings from Gods Word does it say that Jesus Christ treated the people he walked with and healed with meaness to get his message across? My God is a loving God. God would never want us to live in oppression and guilt to get His Word across!! My God is a healing God.
Do you really think he would want to give that kind of responsibility to a man that sexually abused/raped women, stole money from abs, treated men and women as if they were nothing, and was an alcoholic? There are a lot of spiritual men that he could have picked for the cross that would have to be bared by your definition. I could name a lot of men that didn't have to berate and belittle to get the message across.
This is all very twisted in thinking to me. The more you explain the more bazaar it sounds. Nothing personal on you mike. If it is true that God wants us to be treated cruelly to get his message then I for one don't want anything to do with it. I would rather rot in hell for all its worth. Thank goodness I don't believe it.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
'Even still I was surprised at how difficult it was at HQ. The mind games and politics there was very thick, even in the 76-78 period I was there. I saw how so many people would get into head trips about the great importance of THEIR spiritual project over all others. I too was influenced by these spirits at times there. It was thick.'
Where do you think the politics were coming from? You would think that if vpw was truly the mog that he would have put a stop to it. Instead he loved the worship everyone gave him. He promoted it, mike!!!!
'I DID see his dark side, but was not too surprised because I John 1 gurantees its there and Romans 7 says Paul had a dark side too.
ok lets read it:
1john 1-10
1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1:2
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)-->
1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1:4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
-----------------------------
Since you were using Romans 7 I decided I would copy romans 6 to really understand what Romans 7 is talking about.
6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
6:21
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You see mike, we don't have to live in the darkness. We don't have to use darkness to get rid of it. We use the Love that God has given us to move the Word. Not the darkness. You say you vpw had a dark side to him and that we all do (not exact words). It says that we don't have to live that way. If within my mind it tells me to beat someone up and I do it. I can't say oh that was my dark side. There is absolutely no excuse for it. Yes our minds are conflicting but its what we do with our minds that is important. Vpw actually did it. He had it in his mind and used his power to hurt people. This was not from God. Please don't tell me it was his dark side. That is a poor excuse. I guess I could go on and on but really the scripture speaks for itself, doesn't it?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
[This message was edited by vickles on June 15, 2003 at 7:25.]
Just in case you say I didn't use romans chapter 7 here it is:
7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
7:8
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Here is chaper 8
8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
8:25
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
8:31
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Please look at all the scriptures around this and you will find that you don't have to live the dark side, the carnal side, the five senses side as you sometimes put it. We have been delivered from this by Jesus Christ. We do not live the law anymore. We don't have to live on the 'dark' side. I have freedom and we have grace. Which means that if it comes to mind to do something we decide if we are going to do it or not. It is our freedom. Vpw chose by his own free will to go his dark side.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Mike, I have no *dark* side. I daily endeavor to do my best, and to this date, have had no need to use bible verses to excuse or explain away my bad behavior .....
It all boils down to TWO things mike and TWO THINGS ONLY .... are we of the *FLESH* or are we of the *SPIRIT*?
The fruit in my life bears up under scrutiny ... the fruit in vp`s exposes what he was...Galations tells us what is in store for both of us :-)
Your *general* analogy is simply another lame attempt to excuse vp`s bad behavior, his poor character...his lack of decency or morality.... and to get us to ignore what Galations has clearly stated that vp was.... A MAN AFTER THE FLEEEEEEEESH!
You say that *YOU* have a *dark* side ... hmmm...have you examined the fruit in YOUR life? Could it be that you are a man after the flesh as well?
Is THAT why you are so willing to ignore vp`s egregious lies and sins and whitewash over the desicration he wrought in the lives of our sweet brothers and sisters :-(
[This message was edited by rascal on June 15, 2003 at 9:59.]
The reason Dr APPEARED to be mean and too tough at times is because we were so 5-senses oriented and obstinate. We were to Dr like the children of Israel were to Moses: stiff-necked. Dr had to get tough with us like Jesus got tough at times with his disciples. Oh, yeah, then unlike Jesus, Dr also sinned.
Telling the difference between Dr?s righteous tough love and his sin was beyond our ability to discriminate because we were not spiritually minded. Oh yeah, we were thinking about spiritual things all the time, but from a 5-senses perspective, and not God?s spiritual perspective.
We lacked spiritual understanding and power, so we could not tell when Dr was in fellowship and dealing with difficult troops, or if he was out of fellowship and stuck in his flesh, living for a time in his dark side.
We all have a dark side, and those who think they have none are the darkest. The question is HOW well and how quickly do we LEAVE living in that darkness when we see from the Word that something?s wrong.
Because we were less than ?all nine all the time? operators, we couldn?t properly discriminate what was TRUELY right and wrong, only make 5-senses guesses based on partial knowledge of the Word and traditional religious upbringing.
This is also the same reason why no one was able to stand up to genuine abuses when the did occur, because they were no Nathan with no revelation. With revelation, ANYONE could have halted ANYTHING going on that was TRUELY, in God?s eyes, jeopardizing God?s plans with The Way.
Not only were we spiritually unqualified to spot these subtle things as they were going on back then, NOW there are two additional factors preventing people from a spiritually sound assessments of these things.
One is that they all happened 20 years ago (talking about Dr not Craig). That?s a long time for distortions to creep into memories. The other factor is that most grads are even LESS capable now that they were 20 years ago, due to the tremendous leakage and adulteration to this Word God taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL.
Our only hope it to return to the books and see for ourselves the work that GOD has wrought for us. This Word will soothe all the hurts.
The fruit of Dr's life is that there are THOUSANDS of people all over the world who now SIT and know God and His Son much better than if Dr hadn?t lived.
THOUSANDS of people are thankful to God for teaching Dr so he could teach us.
There are a few TENS of people bellyaching and boo hooing over what NOW shouild be essentially nothing, and when we boil this down to 1st person complaints we might not even have tens.
I know that there are some brutal crime victims who could have been MUCH more horribly hurt by some incident 20 years ago that ANYTHING that ever went on at HQ. I believe that if those victims, some even physically damaged or disfigured, received proper counseling including NOT rehashing the incident ad infinitum on public discussion boards, then they are probably enjoying MORE healing than the established moaners and groaners here.
I can?t think of a better way to NOT get healed than wallowing in the memory of a hurt year after year and getting others to wallow in it.
If Dr hadn?t come along and given us the Word, those here with this great predilection to hate and moan would probably have been hurt MUCH worse by somebody else in some religion or school or company or relationship.
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
I'm beginning to think that this thread is getting too big.
I say this for a few reasons. One is that the number of pages may hit a maximum. Another is that the number of ?views? may be bothering people. It kind looks a little top heavy on the chart compared to the other threads, and I think this might be an unnecessary irritant to people here who want the board to reflect an antiPFAL image.
Maybe after I post my page references to the Spir/Nat dichotomy we can let this thread retire and move on to other things.
P.S. If so many derailments hadn't happened, most of which change the topic to "me" instead of the Nat/Spir thing, then we probably would have finished long ago.
You wrote: ?Where do you think the politics were coming from? You would think that if vpw was truly the mog that he would have put a stop to it. Instead he loved the worship everyone gave him. He promoted it, mike!!!!?
In the Bible there are LOTS of examples where a man of God was UNABLE to control the politics going on. Look at how Jesus worked with Judas. Many more details about Judas come out when all the records on him are compared. He had some problems and he spread them to the other apostles. Peter also had problems. There are incidents in Jesus band where politics got thick. It came from the adversary, who, OF COURSE, is going to influence where it counted most to him: WHERE THE ACTION WAS.
Ditto for HQ. Dr was often straightening out political skirmishes between leaders. The adversary struck hard at HQ because that?s where the action that MOST threatened him was taking place. Dr?s believing and toughness held it to a ?minimum? but after he died all hell broke loose.
*********
As for the worship and him loving it, that?s pretty human, isn?t it? Another factor to consider with this, though, is that it IS proper to respect our elders in the Word... it says so in the Bible to give double honor and to remember who taught us the Word. Well, with the non-spiritual eyes you had at that time, you couldn?t discern the difference between proper love and respect from the counterfeit hero worship and out-of-bounds respect. So you don?t know when this respect was occurring or when the distorted hero worship of him (which DID happen at times) was occurring.
Another factor to consider is this: in your zeal to kill this Word we were given in yourself and others, you don?t keep track efficiently of the good stories regarding Dr and these difficult areas. I have heard a story of one Corps person who was setting up Dr?s room for an Advanced Class in San Diego. This person says that Dr confided with her that he was somewhat embarrassed at times with al the fussing to get everything physically just right with his accommodations, but he allowed them to carry on because it was the love they had for the Word and the thankfulness to him AND God that they were expressing. The fact that the expression was at times overboard and embarrassing to him was only a small glitch compared to NOT having that love and thankfulness for the Word.
There are a lot of VERY good stories out there about Dr that don?t get typed up on this board, but GOD remembers.
quote:If Dr hadn?t come along and given us the Word, those here with this great predilection to hate and moan would probably have been hurt MUCH worse by somebody else in some religion or school or company or relationship.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
Steve,
Again, because you heart is not engaged, you misunderstood my criticism of your approach.
No you didn?t write the words ?Mike, you?re possessed.?
You seem to focus on technicalities, and not heart.
Technically, it's factual that you did not wite that I was possessed. Technically, you DID write that I was listening to spirits, so that could mean possession, oppression, or phenomena. So, technically, if I were to be correct in describing your approach on this point, then I?d have had to say that you wrote that I was afflicted by one to those three I just mentioned.
But, Steve, that?s NOT what I meant when I complained. What I meant was that you were resorting to a device that Craig and the Corpse Henchmen often employed in their intimidation campaigns. It?s the device of dropping the particulars of a conversation, debate, or argument, and accusing the opponent of being under the influence of spirits, and therefore all the particulars of the topic can be thrown out.
As time went by most people lost track of the differences between all these three types of influence and possession became the only one many could think of. I?ve complained here a lot of this confusion of possession with oppression.
If you look real hard, you?ll see that ONE of the times I cried ?Foul? at your approach I used the phrase ?possessed or oppressed? to cue you and/or any careful readers.
So there?s this device of ?intimidation and info sweeping? that ruined many interactions between people, because it worked so well, and the users were seduced into the power it brought item. They?d get real skilled at saying ?You?re possessed? without saying it.
If that exact sentence were said over and over it would lose it?s punch, but if it were subtly implied, and never overtly stated, then it would actually carry MORE punch because then there?s the element of uncertainty in the hearer. Hinting also provides a back door for the issuer in case something goes wrong, and he needs to take it back. It?s easier to take back a hint than a proclamation.
So, instead of labeling your approach the ?intimidation and info sweeping? technique, which is an accurate descriptive name, I called your game by it?s more intimately known and more crude title of the ?You?re possessed!? technique.
Steve, I think it?s crude and stupid to dredge up the ?You?re possessed!? technique. When I was addressing to the spirits you got this from and letting them know I know who they are, the ones who ruined the ministry, you mistakenly thought I was directing my comments to you.
BTW, I feel the same about Columbo, and that?s why a cheap imitation of him doesn?t do it for me.
Have you found any more understanding on those terribly difficult Blue Book pages 23 and 24?
Have you found any more passages of Dr?s that can shed light on his terribly cryptic comments on those two pages? This may be one of the most read books in the ministry, and yet it totally slipped past all of us that pages 23 and 24 of the Blue Book don?t make sense. Columbo will be proud of you, Steve, for spotting this glaring error.
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TheInvisibleDan
No, I never did attain the position of an "OLG" - a "CIM" (cog-in-the-machine)
perhaps (lol!)
My son loves "The Justice League" on the cartoon channel.
Danny
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Mike
Dan,
The way I defined OLG was to include WOW's and Advanced Class grads and anyone who had a chance to grow spiritually after first taking the class and start functioning by 1982 or so, and in the SPIRITUAL Body of Christ, and not so much the body of the 5-senses corporate structure.
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Mike
Ginger,
Yes, I too thought Mark?s comment on page 22 was a bit bizarre, as if he misses the Wierwille apologists I ?ran off.?
Thanks for your pointing this out.
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Mike
I thought that maybe there are other explanations for the disappearance of the Wierwille apologists, but this is backed up by evidence, and not a guess.
They were probably really run off by the gross negativity sometimes here (it almost works on me sometimes). I?m sure some had simply run out of bullets. Bless their hearts, but unless they?ve been hard at work mastering PFAL for some time, they just are no match for the likes of the PFAL antagonists here. Sometimes I?m just barely ahead of the latest twists that come up here, where I read something one day in PFAL and (BOOM!) someone here challenges me on that same thing the next day, and I?d have been hard pressed for the answer had I not been currently studying.
I?d like to think the Wierwille apologists are reading these discussions and learning to crack their books again, and not rely on old paradigms and memories of what?s supposed to be in there. I?d like to think they are having a grand time mastering PFAL and finally finding out why Dr told us to do it so many times.
The evidence that this guess has foundation is that I get e-mails occasionally from them. Once in a blue moon they even post a note here to the effect that I?m doing a good job. A couple of people signed up at GS just to get my e-mail address and support my efforts and have never posted.
Won?t Mark be happy if they all come back to GreaseSpot in the great strength God is giving to all who come back to PFAL?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 1:15.]
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Mike
EWB,
The clear answers I'm giving here are only clear to those who obey the revelation God gave Dr at the end of his life that we must master PFAL.
The clear answers are in PFAL, not my posts alone. You've got to have your head in PFAL to get clearness from me.
If you chose to disobey God and wing it on you own, and with your own chosen teachers, guiding yourself by your own light, then you cannot understand me.
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Mike
rascal,
You wrote: ?Your version of vp as the stern general with a job to do makes me want to puke..... ?
That?s probably because it?s a new idea to you. Give it some time to settle.
The adversary was all over the ministry trying constantly to get it to stop delivering this Word to people. It was a very intense struggle. Working at HQ or going into the Corps or going out WOW should have been viewed like signing up for the front lines in a war. In the early 70?s we were told this very thing about the spiritual action being pretty tough on the front lines. Before I went to work at HQ I was told this and I pondered it deeply. Even still I was surprised at how difficult it was at HQ. The mind games and politics there was very thick, even in the 76-78 period I was there. I saw how so many people would get into head trips about the great importance of THEIR spiritual project over all others. I too was influenced by these spirits at times there. It was thick.
To look at Dr?s job of coordinating that large company with all those attacks both from without and from within, for Dr to be ANYTHING less that a VERY tough, mean general would mean certain victory for the adversary.
Because Dr was so tough (and for many other reasons) he did get the job done. God?s revelation was put into written form, printed into thousands of copies, and distributed to thousands of locations around the world.
Your nausea can be alleviated some by believing that those who were hit with friendly fire, or who SEEMED to get expended, will be more than rewarded by God for their contributions to this successful undertaking of God?s to get His in the world again in a form perfect enough to get the perfectly renewed mind built in us.
Dr didn?t single handedly get this job done. He had a lot of help.
Now it?s time for us to get OUR job done: Mastering this Word that came via PFAL.
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Mike
rascal,
I DID see his dark side, but was not too surprised because I John 1 guarantees it's there and Romans 7 says Paul had a dark side too.
I see MY dark side and thank God for it's eventual demise.
Do you ever look at YOUR dark side?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 2:10.]
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Mark Sanguinetti
Ginger Tea:
I was just stating the obvious in a gentle manner. Mike is not accomplishing his goal of winning people to his version of PFAL. For Mike this is definitely more than a personal belief system. He is proselitizing everyone here with his religious beliefs. He is putting out pages and pages of his religious material. Hey, if you like it by all means help yourself. However, you have never to my knowledge stated a belief in the bible, God or Jesus Christ. Now tell me. Have I ever once here complained about your perceived lack of faith? And for that matter have I ever complained about anyone's lack of faith here?
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on June 15, 2003 at 3:38.]
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Goey
No, Mike, they don't have to be "mean" especially in how they relate to and treat those they they have been entrusted to lead. Meanness implies cruelty, maliciousness and ill temperment. While a good general may want the enemy to percieve him as "mean", he cannot treat his own soldiers with the same 'meaness' and expect them to faithfully carry on the fight. Wars are not won by meanness, they are won by using superior strategies and tacticts. A good general leads by example.
God exhorts Christians to be kind, gentle and loving, especially to one another. Wierwille was not exempted from these because of being some great spiritual general or because of the urgency of the battle. You are making excuses.
Being a Christian may not always be a "sweet fellowship picnic", but we certainly should not expect or allow ourselves to be betrayed and abused by a so-called "general". Wierwille lost his commission (if he ever had one) when he began to use his rank for personal gain and personal pleasures, while betrying and abusing those who looked up to him for guidance and help.No Mike, God does not need mean, cruel or viscious people to do his bidding or to lead His people.
Horsepucky! Mike, when you realize just exactly what Christ was sent to do for us, and that HE suceeded, then you will realize that God's Word was alive and well before Wierwille came along.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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vickles
'Mike, when you realize just exactly what Christ was sent to do for us, and that HE suceeded, then you will realize that God's Word was alive and well before Wierwille came along.'
Goey, Amen to that!!!!
Mike, I hope that was a typo that you wrote. I think it should read that Jesus Christ was sent to us. Its Christ that is our savior not vpw. Its through Christ that we are healed and its through Him that we are delivered. If the Word had meant vpw it would have said it.
By saying that vpw had to be mean to get things done by what spirit was he walking with? How was he a general? I have heard of devil spirits termed in that way.
In all the writings from Gods Word does it say that Jesus Christ treated the people he walked with and healed with meaness to get his message across? My God is a loving God. God would never want us to live in oppression and guilt to get His Word across!! My God is a healing God.
Do you really think he would want to give that kind of responsibility to a man that sexually abused/raped women, stole money from abs, treated men and women as if they were nothing, and was an alcoholic? There are a lot of spiritual men that he could have picked for the cross that would have to be bared by your definition. I could name a lot of men that didn't have to berate and belittle to get the message across.
This is all very twisted in thinking to me. The more you explain the more bazaar it sounds. Nothing personal on you mike. If it is true that God wants us to be treated cruelly to get his message then I for one don't want anything to do with it. I would rather rot in hell for all its worth. Thank goodness I don't believe it.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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vickles
'Even still I was surprised at how difficult it was at HQ. The mind games and politics there was very thick, even in the 76-78 period I was there. I saw how so many people would get into head trips about the great importance of THEIR spiritual project over all others. I too was influenced by these spirits at times there. It was thick.'
Where do you think the politics were coming from? You would think that if vpw was truly the mog that he would have put a stop to it. Instead he loved the worship everyone gave him. He promoted it, mike!!!!
'I DID see his dark side, but was not too surprised because I John 1 gurantees its there and Romans 7 says Paul had a dark side too.
ok lets read it:
1john 1-10
1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1:2
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
;)-->
1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1:4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
-----------------------------
Since you were using Romans 7 I decided I would copy romans 6 to really understand what Romans 7 is talking about.
6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
6:21
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You see mike, we don't have to live in the darkness. We don't have to use darkness to get rid of it. We use the Love that God has given us to move the Word. Not the darkness. You say you vpw had a dark side to him and that we all do (not exact words). It says that we don't have to live that way. If within my mind it tells me to beat someone up and I do it. I can't say oh that was my dark side. There is absolutely no excuse for it. Yes our minds are conflicting but its what we do with our minds that is important. Vpw actually did it. He had it in his mind and used his power to hurt people. This was not from God. Please don't tell me it was his dark side. That is a poor excuse. I guess I could go on and on but really the scripture speaks for itself, doesn't it?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
[This message was edited by vickles on June 15, 2003 at 7:25.]
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vickles
Just in case you say I didn't use romans chapter 7 here it is:
7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
7:8
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Here is chaper 8
8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
8:25
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
8:31
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please look at all the scriptures around this and you will find that you don't have to live the dark side, the carnal side, the five senses side as you sometimes put it. We have been delivered from this by Jesus Christ. We do not live the law anymore. We don't have to live on the 'dark' side. I have freedom and we have grace. Which means that if it comes to mind to do something we decide if we are going to do it or not. It is our freedom. Vpw chose by his own free will to go his dark side.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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rascal
Mike, I have no *dark* side. I daily endeavor to do my best, and to this date, have had no need to use bible verses to excuse or explain away my bad behavior .....
It all boils down to TWO things mike and TWO THINGS ONLY .... are we of the *FLESH* or are we of the *SPIRIT*?
The fruit in my life bears up under scrutiny ... the fruit in vp`s exposes what he was...Galations tells us what is in store for both of us :-)
Your *general* analogy is simply another lame attempt to excuse vp`s bad behavior, his poor character...his lack of decency or morality.... and to get us to ignore what Galations has clearly stated that vp was.... A MAN AFTER THE FLEEEEEEEESH!
You say that *YOU* have a *dark* side ... hmmm...have you examined the fruit in YOUR life? Could it be that you are a man after the flesh as well?
Is THAT why you are so willing to ignore vp`s egregious lies and sins and whitewash over the desicration he wrought in the lives of our sweet brothers and sisters :-(
[This message was edited by rascal on June 15, 2003 at 9:59.]
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excathedra
oh darn here i am again
amen brother!love, olga
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Mike
Exy,
This skewed perception can be changed, if you would stop reinforcing the dark side image you have of him.
How would you like it if someone froze on video tape YOUR worst "old man nature" moments?
Do you think they'd really get to know the real YOU better by replaying that video over and over?
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Mike
The reason Dr APPEARED to be mean and too tough at times is because we were so 5-senses oriented and obstinate. We were to Dr like the children of Israel were to Moses: stiff-necked. Dr had to get tough with us like Jesus got tough at times with his disciples. Oh, yeah, then unlike Jesus, Dr also sinned.
Telling the difference between Dr?s righteous tough love and his sin was beyond our ability to discriminate because we were not spiritually minded. Oh yeah, we were thinking about spiritual things all the time, but from a 5-senses perspective, and not God?s spiritual perspective.
We lacked spiritual understanding and power, so we could not tell when Dr was in fellowship and dealing with difficult troops, or if he was out of fellowship and stuck in his flesh, living for a time in his dark side.
We all have a dark side, and those who think they have none are the darkest. The question is HOW well and how quickly do we LEAVE living in that darkness when we see from the Word that something?s wrong.
Because we were less than ?all nine all the time? operators, we couldn?t properly discriminate what was TRUELY right and wrong, only make 5-senses guesses based on partial knowledge of the Word and traditional religious upbringing.
This is also the same reason why no one was able to stand up to genuine abuses when the did occur, because they were no Nathan with no revelation. With revelation, ANYONE could have halted ANYTHING going on that was TRUELY, in God?s eyes, jeopardizing God?s plans with The Way.
Not only were we spiritually unqualified to spot these subtle things as they were going on back then, NOW there are two additional factors preventing people from a spiritually sound assessments of these things.
One is that they all happened 20 years ago (talking about Dr not Craig). That?s a long time for distortions to creep into memories. The other factor is that most grads are even LESS capable now that they were 20 years ago, due to the tremendous leakage and adulteration to this Word God taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL.
Our only hope it to return to the books and see for ourselves the work that GOD has wrought for us. This Word will soothe all the hurts.
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excathedra
i could live with it. and yes i do think they would get to know the real ME. i'm the same person i always was
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Mike
The fruit of Dr's life is that there are THOUSANDS of people all over the world who now SIT and know God and His Son much better than if Dr hadn?t lived.
THOUSANDS of people are thankful to God for teaching Dr so he could teach us.
There are a few TENS of people bellyaching and boo hooing over what NOW shouild be essentially nothing, and when we boil this down to 1st person complaints we might not even have tens.
I know that there are some brutal crime victims who could have been MUCH more horribly hurt by some incident 20 years ago that ANYTHING that ever went on at HQ. I believe that if those victims, some even physically damaged or disfigured, received proper counseling including NOT rehashing the incident ad infinitum on public discussion boards, then they are probably enjoying MORE healing than the established moaners and groaners here.
I can?t think of a better way to NOT get healed than wallowing in the memory of a hurt year after year and getting others to wallow in it.
If Dr hadn?t come along and given us the Word, those here with this great predilection to hate and moan would probably have been hurt MUCH worse by somebody else in some religion or school or company or relationship.
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
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Mike
Exy,
There are sins FAR more subtle and sad than foul sex.
Internal pride can be festering unchallenged in great external rule followers.
Hurting another's chances to hear the Word because we have a private beef with God's messenger is a pretty arrogant position.
Nurturing hate instead of love is not what you want frozen in video tape.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 13:11.]
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Mike
I'm beginning to think that this thread is getting too big.
I say this for a few reasons. One is that the number of pages may hit a maximum. Another is that the number of ?views? may be bothering people. It kind looks a little top heavy on the chart compared to the other threads, and I think this might be an unnecessary irritant to people here who want the board to reflect an antiPFAL image.
Maybe after I post my page references to the Spir/Nat dichotomy we can let this thread retire and move on to other things.
P.S. If so many derailments hadn't happened, most of which change the topic to "me" instead of the Nat/Spir thing, then we probably would have finished long ago.
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Mike
vickles,
You wrote: ?Where do you think the politics were coming from? You would think that if vpw was truly the mog that he would have put a stop to it. Instead he loved the worship everyone gave him. He promoted it, mike!!!!?
In the Bible there are LOTS of examples where a man of God was UNABLE to control the politics going on. Look at how Jesus worked with Judas. Many more details about Judas come out when all the records on him are compared. He had some problems and he spread them to the other apostles. Peter also had problems. There are incidents in Jesus band where politics got thick. It came from the adversary, who, OF COURSE, is going to influence where it counted most to him: WHERE THE ACTION WAS.
Ditto for HQ. Dr was often straightening out political skirmishes between leaders. The adversary struck hard at HQ because that?s where the action that MOST threatened him was taking place. Dr?s believing and toughness held it to a ?minimum? but after he died all hell broke loose.
*********
As for the worship and him loving it, that?s pretty human, isn?t it? Another factor to consider with this, though, is that it IS proper to respect our elders in the Word... it says so in the Bible to give double honor and to remember who taught us the Word. Well, with the non-spiritual eyes you had at that time, you couldn?t discern the difference between proper love and respect from the counterfeit hero worship and out-of-bounds respect. So you don?t know when this respect was occurring or when the distorted hero worship of him (which DID happen at times) was occurring.
Another factor to consider is this: in your zeal to kill this Word we were given in yourself and others, you don?t keep track efficiently of the good stories regarding Dr and these difficult areas. I have heard a story of one Corps person who was setting up Dr?s room for an Advanced Class in San Diego. This person says that Dr confided with her that he was somewhat embarrassed at times with al the fussing to get everything physically just right with his accommodations, but he allowed them to carry on because it was the love they had for the Word and the thankfulness to him AND God that they were expressing. The fact that the expression was at times overboard and embarrassing to him was only a small glitch compared to NOT having that love and thankfulness for the Word.
There are a lot of VERY good stories out there about Dr that don?t get typed up on this board, but GOD remembers.
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excathedra
i doubt it
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excathedra
uh what's foul sex ?
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