Mark - "OLG" is Mike's acromyn for "older leader grad", anyone who held an official or unofficial leadership position in the Way between the time of Wierwille's retirement and the time of his death. OLGs are the target market in Mike's promotional effort.
Mike - I have read EVERY ONE of your posts on this thread. I have been doing it all along. How do you think I come up with so many contradictions :-)
You wrote, Mike, "Solving this detection problem would sure be a boon, wouldn't it!"
Then you wrote, "You avoid the data and details of what I post, EVEN TO YOU, and just chug along with your cheap imitation of Peter Faulk's 'Columbo'."
I take that as a high compliment, Mike! I admire Peter Faulk as an actor and I like the "Columbo" character. The writing on that show is so good, it's one of the few that I can enjoy watching over and over.
Love,
Steve Lortz, OLG Extraordinaire
Oh... One more thing... How can we master the 5-senses meaning of PFAL if we don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote?
All and Sundry - Mike wrote, "Steve... You are the TWI-2 spirit that we all know we don't want. You are what went wrong with the ministry. You are the many villians that ruined things on the field thousands of miles from root locations."
Well, everybody, have I, or have I not, earned the right to add "extraordinaire" to my "OLG" title?
Love,
Steve Lortz, OLG Extraordinaire
Oh... Just one more thing... I only live about 125 miles from HQ. That's one of the reasons I knew what was going on there during 1986-7. So you see, you can't hold ME responsible for ruining "things on the field thousands of miles from root locations".
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 13, 2003 at 14:51.]
Mike, the only *tearing* down I am interested in doing is the false illusion that you are engulfed in.
I gotta ask Mike, if you were *only* a tc why is it you think you know more of vp`s character and intent than the people here who lived and worked with him on a daily basis?
The people here that were seduced into fullfilling his *needs* and then dumped like so much garbage ... The girls who DIDN`T fullfill his needs and were thrown out of the ministry and declared posessed for their lack of willingness to *bless* the mog....the fellows here who were thrown out of the ministry because their research of the scriptures proved uncategorically that vp was wrong in areas?
How is it that you personally know so much more than they, about a man you had so very few personal *dealings* with?
There are many here at gspot that have a much more intimate knowledge of the true character of vp, and the heart behind his *ministry*
Heck even his poor wife was quoted as saying immediatly after his funeral that he was a "mean, mean, man"
You shouldda read the letter his old buddy ha posted on wd once gloating about how a bunch of ohio dirt farmers had managed to fleece alla us fools outta our money....had s------ our wives and daughters...and laughed their as--s off all the way to the bank, (written much fouler than that) and all we could do was whine about it..... nice guys eh?
VP and his ministry have given God a very bad name....there are so many people that have been destroyed by what they thought was a Godly group....many cannot seperate God and this monster, because he hid his evil behind scriptures and *principles*.... they cannot bear to hear the bible or anything about God because it ALL feels like the same big scam.
VP, and the ministry HE set up has had more destructive impact on christian believers lives than any other character I have ever read of in history.... and you want to elevate him to *prophet* status? Give his words honor and respectability? Naw...
Damn right I am *angry* with him....he hurt a lot of really good people... Damn right I *hate* what he did to the folks who believed him when he said that he had the answeres to ALL of lifes questions..... I do not believe that hate and anger in this context, and feeling repugnance for such a man`s lies ...constitute a sin....or see any way in which it places me off the word...
On the contrary, God`s word is quite clear about the manner of dealing with those such as he.
Mike sure, I know that parts of pfal worked....but those are the parts that vp learned from truly spiritual men men who lived a holy lifestyle and sought after things of the spirit......that does not make HIM a man after the spirit...or consecrate the REST of the words HE wrote and added......I am sorry.
It is a shame, I hate that you harbor such a misconception of me, and the posters here who really are trying to help.... it blinds you to the truth that could help you resume your spiritual growth...
'Steve, your modus operundi is out in the open. You will take in everything I say, and you will maneuver everything you write to either overtly or covertly (this latest was covert) say that I'm possessed or oppressed. Did you learn this from Craig Martindale? You are imitating him to the ?T? and it stinks. A lot of other people have smelt what you have dealt here, and you should be ashamed. You are the TWI-2 spirit that we all know we don?t want. You are what went wrong with the ministry. You are the many villains that ruined things on the field thousands of miles from root locations.'
I wouldn't see steve as a villain. I haven't seen him name call. I think he is calling a spade a spade.
Originally posted by Mike:
karmicdebt,
'If you had been spiritually minded back then you?d have successfully fought against the abuses as they occurred. But you were no Nathan and neither was anyone else.'
How do you know or not that Karmic was spiritually minded back then? You are coming from the thought that it is all our faults that twi went down because we were not 'spiritual' enough. Why blame? That sounds like what twi did. The whole concept that the original twi was good and spiritual was built on sand mike. Sure there were a lot of great things happening and there were a lot of miracles and such. But it was because of what the christians were believing. They took the simple believing of what the Word of God and people were healed. Twi did not heal them. Vpw did not heal them. The roots of the tree did not heal them. It was God who healed them through the christians that believed that these miracles could happen. The evil part was vpw and his crowd taking over because they wanted their part and wanted the power, the recognition, and the money. You take that away and you have the simple believing joe and mary.
You are taking vpw's writings and beliefs and telling us that this is the Word of God. Not the bible. You are taking his life and his writings exhalting him to your highest.
Mike you can accept His Word or not accept it. That is up to you. But to accept God's Word you have to learn to be meek. God doesn't want us to accept mans word for it. Men can lie. Which you can see through vpw's works and life. His whole life was a crock with evil men to help and guide and take all the money. Vpw saw this ministry as a way for him to live an opulent life style. Take for instance the motorcycle in one of the threads. He told people his brother harry loved him so much he got him a motorcycle. When it was all said and done what happened was he had taken the money earmarked for twi and spent it on a motorcycle. Vpw was a habitual liar. His writings, yes while had some truth in them, was made for you and I to become puppets for him. That is why this whole thing stinks. That is why the early 70's fell was because vpw wanted all the credit.
I am not going to tell you what to believe mike. You are the one that has to deal with it. Your whole life is set up for bondage. Its almost like you want to be a martyr for Jesus. You want us to say as OLG's that we did wrong because we weren't spiritual enough. Bull Sh$t!!!! Where do you think that is coming from? I certainly don't believe my Father in heaven would say that to me. It is only to knock us down and feel guilty. I for one will never feel guilty for the ruination of twi. Twi did it itself by its whole set up and the people that set it up. They set it up to go among the sheep as wholes to devour us so they could become fat in riches. This is why it fell. Not because we weren't doing enough. It was not Godly from the beginning. If your not willing to accept this then that is your right. But you will continually not get it for the rest of your days because of it. Your setting yourself up for being in bondage for the rest of your life. Your in your fifties mike. Not a kid anymore. Stop blaming us and yourself for past mistakes that wasn't our fault!!!!!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
quote:You are the TWI-2 spirit that we all know we don?t want. You are what went wrong with the ministry. You are the many villains that ruined things on the field thousands of miles from root locations.
you really should join that other psychoprophet Chr*s G**r
Before you started posting on Grease Spot Cafe we used to have Wierwille apologists that would occasionally post on this forum. They would say in essence that he was a good bible teacher and that in spite of his sins and weaknesses that he helped some people with his ministry. Well Mike, I think you might have chased them away because I don't see them or rarely see them on Grease Spot Cafe anymore. How did I do this you ask? Mike, your posts are so full of obvious idolatry that even Wierwille apologists see it. They don't even like it. Everyone that is except for you. This is actually a great contribution to this forum Mike. This is what many of us have tried to do here. However, only you could do it so effectively with your carnage of religious writings. Mike, I want to tell you again that I do appreciate your contributions to Grease Spot Cafe. However, some of us would like to see you delivered from the religious reasoning that afflicts you now. We would like to see you actually grow in a knowledge of Jesus Christ the Lord and Son of God. We would like to see you contribute in other ways on this forum other than being a guinea pig for everything that is wrong with PFAL infatuation. Nevertheless, if you feel that you must. Carry on. And thank you again for your contributions here.
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on June 13, 2003 at 17:36.]
Dang it if this thread doesn't grab my imagination - as well as a couple of other parts of my anatomy.
Oh, it has done so in so many ways.
For one thing - no, I can't start counting for this is a forever thread because Mike is involved in a forever task.
I said earlier that Mike reminded me of the sorcerers apprentice in the movie, Fantasia. Remember Mickey Mouse having been given his marching orders by the sorcerer to take out the water. Poor Mickey has this little bucket & the water keeps coming in until Mickey is like trying to empty the ocean in a hurricane?
I forget what statement of Mike's first reminded me of the sorcerer's apprentice, & I'm not going to go back & look it up - Mike, you're not doing anything, & I'm on break - or have you delivered some knowledge to me now that I'm responsible for, so I'm on the job again? One aspect of your job description seems to be telling others about responsibilities they are not fulfilling, so let me know.
Anyway, this latest sorcerer's apprentice allusion is too appropriate. Here is Mike studying the blue book like we all should. Let me get this straight - aww heck, I'm on break, so I'm not going to look it up, but the pint is that Mike said that it would take some number of years - seven maybe? - to really work the blue book, & that there are all those other books and mag articles, and by the time that the seven years was up, that was enough time for the knowledge to already start leaking out. So here is Mike, six years from now, still working the blue book - but what he has worked is already leaking out, & he hasn't even started the other books yet.
I'm still on break, on the inhale, Mike doubts he will be able to answer more than 1/2 the concerns posted here, & on the exhale, he hopes he will get to everyone.
Now this is totally rich! E.W. Bullinger shows up & certifies that Steve has earned the right to the appellation "O.L.G. extrordinare".
The man behind the curtain, the true sorcerer (true sorcerer, hmm) is dead, never having bestowed the appellation "O.L.G. extrordinare" on Mike.
The wicked witch hasn't even been identified, nevermind defeated (although several participants in this thread have been accused of being possessed).
I'm relegated to the poppy field for an indeterminant time period while Mike attempts to carry the ocean from the household bucket by bucket - seven years + time for leakage + the other books + the magazines + the other half of the questions that will not have been addressed + plus all the questions that will have been posed in all those years.
I don't know, Mike, but you seem to be heavy laden. Maybe it is my lazy OLG self, but I think you need to turn in your Lord for a saviour whose burden is light & easy who will give you rest.
Hey, what do I know, my leaky self hanging out in this poppy field?
The reason that I confirmed that Steve was an "OLG extrordinere" is that he asked if he was worthy of the title. I thought that his careful reading of Mike's confusing infomercial and his patient waits for Mike's circular replies earned Steve the right to that appellation.
Since British Victorians loved to give titles can I give one to you? On the previous page you ended a post with "ditch diggers anonymous", but that is sort of hard to work into a name. In your last post you made references to two 1930's movies. What do you think about "1930's movie OLG"?
EWB - Thank you for your assessment of my efforts. Personally, I thought the fact that I am the spirit of TWI-2, that I am what went wrong with the ministry, and that I am "many villians" who wreaked ruination over thousands of miles should make me pretty extraordinary. But I'll accept your judgment, instead.
Danny - It's always good to hear from you. Do you read "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"? If you are an OLG, we could start the League of Extraordinary OLGs. Being invisible should certainly qualify you!
Mike, Mike, Mike! It's always such a hoot to read the things you write!
You wrote, "I don't look to spirits (there's that sneaky 'You're possessed!' line of yours again) for the spiritual understanding of PFAL, I ask THE Holy Spirit, my Daddy."
Please give us the citations for any places where I wrote "You're possessed!" Use the search function if you like. You won't find any because I've never written that.
How about this, "Did you know that it's very possible to receive a revelation from the devil, and not be possessed? Jesus Christ heard a voice and saw a vision, but he recognized the contradictions with the written Word... It wasn't like the devil looked ugly, with red skin, a tail and horns. He probably was the most beautiful thing Jesus had ever seen in his life! But Jesus wasn't fooled or distracted because he had spent so much time with the written Word."
YOU wrote that, Mike! It's about 3/4 of the way down page 12.
You also wrote, "Dr said we weren't responsible for thoughts that occur to us (devil revelations), but we ARE responsible for not letting them lodge (take up residence) in our hair."
ANY message from ANY spirit purporting that PFAL is God-breathed is devilish revelation, Mike, and you are responsible for letting it lodge in your hair. When you so longingly implore OLGs to "come back to PFAL" and to "master PFAL", you are asking them to let the lie take up residence in their minds, also.
You may very well be asking THE Holy Spirit, your Daddy, for understanding, Mike, but whose answers are you listening to?
You wrote, "As we master and learn the 5-senses messages in those books [PFAL, et al.], with repeated and thorough readings, we can then turn our attention to hear God whisper to us the hidden messages HE, GOD, put in there that our 5-senses would never pick up. Also the 5-senses readings help us build protection against devilish doctrines that are all around out there. Our adversary can and will attempt to whisper wrong meanings to us as we work the Word."
So... you can have TWO spirits whispering different meanings to you as you work the Word, Mike, God's and the devil's. How can you tell which whispering voice is whose? "...the 5-senses readings help us build protection against devilish doctrines..."
Wierwille wrote, "It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille's writings, or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, 'Search the Scriptures...' because all Scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; nor what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed."
The 5-senses meaning of this passage, according to all the laws of grammar, is as follows: Wierwille's words fall into the same catagory as the words of Shakespeare, Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, Roberts and denominational writings; the words in this catagory are different from the words in the catagory we call "Scripture" because ALL of the words in the Scripture catagory are necessarily God-breathed, while NOT ALL of the words in the other catagory are necessarily God-breathed.
So what happens, Mike, if I'm studying this passage of PFAL, and two voices whisper to me. One whispers, "Wierwille meant exactly what he wrote."
The other whispers, "We can't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote. The spiritual meaning of this passage is actually that some of what Wierwille wrote HAS TO BE God-breathed."
Remember, "...the 5-senses readings help us build protection against devilish doctrines..." Which whispering voice is whose, Mike? Which whispering voice is whose?
In respects with getting a straight answer from Mike I think you are beating a dead horse. In the twenty three (23!) pages of this thread I see very few clear answers from Mike. I also want to complement you for your honest discussion of your personal life a few pages ago. I too came from a spiritualist background and I know the siren call of ?the inner voices'.
I have a suggestion, why don't we give Mike a nickname? I suggest "horse whisperer OLG". Horse whisperers believe that they can communicate with animals and get answers or results that no one can duplicate. In the bible horses are often associated with idolatry. What are your thoughts?
Now, now, Ethelbert. My goal is not necessarily to get a straight answer out of Mike. Only time will tell if that is going to happen. I would be happy if Mike admits the truth, even if only to himself, that the line of thinking he has staked his life on for the past five years is false.
That's a humbling thing to do, in itself. I don't think we need to generate any artificial humiliation.
Hey EWB, I think that you have the wrong idea about *horse whisperes* (possibly from a really stupid movie)
If you read *the man who listens to horses* by Monty Roberts... (really a great read.....contains a whole lot more than just horse communiction skills:-) you will understand that the Horse whisperer simply comprehends horse body language and knows how to communicate with them accordingly.
I personally raise and train my horses using these very effective methods.... nothing *spiritual* about it.... your just using body position ... stance .. and eye contact to communicate with the animal in a manner that they comprehend:-)
Due to a poor understanding of true nature of the situation, an inability to communicate in a manner that is comprehensible .. and a noted lack of sensitivity .... I believe the title of *horse whisperer in this case to be totally inapropriate ....sorry
[This message was edited by rascal on June 14, 2003 at 18:07.]
[This message was edited by rascal on June 14, 2003 at 18:09.]
I'm getting some data ready so's this thread's topic steers away from me and back onto items that slipped passed us years ago.
We're witnessing now one on the mechanisms by which things slipped passed us then. It's not focusing on the Word but on personalities.
Looking with the 5-senses all about we can conclude that God Almighty is a mean, mean, mean God. Sure, just look at how devoted to His laws He is. When a baby falls out of a 20 story building and hits the sidewalk it DIES! Don?t you think a loving God would suspend His laws, like gravity, for a innocent baby!? But NO! Innocents are mercilessly killed every day!
The above paragraph is HEARTILY believed by a significant percentage of the population, and they think they have a lot of proof supporting their belief. I don?t believe it because I?ve seen that there is are spiritual laws and there are natural laws that God has set up, that IN THE LONG RUN will be best. In the meantime, those who are unaware of His ultimate plan are prone to think He is a mean, mean, mean God.
Ditto for the job Dr was given to do. It was a job that necessitated going against the god of this world in a way he hasn?t been challenged for 2000 years. Tough generals in wars MUST be mean, mean, mean or they lose the war.
Volunteers who join the generals staff should be prepared for a rough ride. Anyone who thinks it?s going to be a sweet fellowship picnic is not paying attention to the spiritual realities. We?ve got to look at the spiritual side of what happened to us in our Way experience.
When it finally dawns on you folks just exactly what Dr was sent to do for God and us, and that he succeeded, then all these perplexing situations that did arise will melt away. They?ll be GONE!
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Steve Lortz
Mark - "OLG" is Mike's acromyn for "older leader grad", anyone who held an official or unofficial leadership position in the Way between the time of Wierwille's retirement and the time of his death. OLGs are the target market in Mike's promotional effort.
Mike - I have read EVERY ONE of your posts on this thread. I have been doing it all along. How do you think I come up with so many contradictions :-)
You wrote, Mike, "Solving this detection problem would sure be a boon, wouldn't it!"
Then you wrote, "You avoid the data and details of what I post, EVEN TO YOU, and just chug along with your cheap imitation of Peter Faulk's 'Columbo'."
I take that as a high compliment, Mike! I admire Peter Faulk as an actor and I like the "Columbo" character. The writing on that show is so good, it's one of the few that I can enjoy watching over and over.
Love,
Steve Lortz, OLG Extraordinaire
Oh... One more thing... How can we master the 5-senses meaning of PFAL if we don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote?
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Steve Lortz
All and Sundry - Mike wrote, "Steve... You are the TWI-2 spirit that we all know we don't want. You are what went wrong with the ministry. You are the many villians that ruined things on the field thousands of miles from root locations."
Well, everybody, have I, or have I not, earned the right to add "extraordinaire" to my "OLG" title?
Love,
Steve Lortz, OLG Extraordinaire
Oh... Just one more thing... I only live about 125 miles from HQ. That's one of the reasons I knew what was going on there during 1986-7. So you see, you can't hold ME responsible for ruining "things on the field thousands of miles from root locations".
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 13, 2003 at 14:51.]
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rascal
Mike, the only *tearing* down I am interested in doing is the false illusion that you are engulfed in.
I gotta ask Mike, if you were *only* a tc why is it you think you know more of vp`s character and intent than the people here who lived and worked with him on a daily basis?
The people here that were seduced into fullfilling his *needs* and then dumped like so much garbage ... The girls who DIDN`T fullfill his needs and were thrown out of the ministry and declared posessed for their lack of willingness to *bless* the mog....the fellows here who were thrown out of the ministry because their research of the scriptures proved uncategorically that vp was wrong in areas?
How is it that you personally know so much more than they, about a man you had so very few personal *dealings* with?
There are many here at gspot that have a much more intimate knowledge of the true character of vp, and the heart behind his *ministry*
Heck even his poor wife was quoted as saying immediatly after his funeral that he was a "mean, mean, man"
You shouldda read the letter his old buddy ha posted on wd once gloating about how a bunch of ohio dirt farmers had managed to fleece alla us fools outta our money....had s------ our wives and daughters...and laughed their as--s off all the way to the bank, (written much fouler than that) and all we could do was whine about it..... nice guys eh?
VP and his ministry have given God a very bad name....there are so many people that have been destroyed by what they thought was a Godly group....many cannot seperate God and this monster, because he hid his evil behind scriptures and *principles*.... they cannot bear to hear the bible or anything about God because it ALL feels like the same big scam.
VP, and the ministry HE set up has had more destructive impact on christian believers lives than any other character I have ever read of in history.... and you want to elevate him to *prophet* status? Give his words honor and respectability? Naw...
Damn right I am *angry* with him....he hurt a lot of really good people... Damn right I *hate* what he did to the folks who believed him when he said that he had the answeres to ALL of lifes questions..... I do not believe that hate and anger in this context, and feeling repugnance for such a man`s lies ...constitute a sin....or see any way in which it places me off the word...
On the contrary, God`s word is quite clear about the manner of dealing with those such as he.
Mike sure, I know that parts of pfal worked....but those are the parts that vp learned from truly spiritual men men who lived a holy lifestyle and sought after things of the spirit......that does not make HIM a man after the spirit...or consecrate the REST of the words HE wrote and added......I am sorry.
It is a shame, I hate that you harbor such a misconception of me, and the posters here who really are trying to help.... it blinds you to the truth that could help you resume your spiritual growth...
Rascalrescued oPg...
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TheInvisibleDan
Steve wroteth:
"Oh... Just one more thing..."
(LOL!) "Columbo" is one of my all time favorite detective shows too.
Danny
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excathedra
thank you rascal
and mike...
i might blow a gasket here, you little sh!t
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vickles
'Steve, your modus operundi is out in the open. You will take in everything I say, and you will maneuver everything you write to either overtly or covertly (this latest was covert) say that I'm possessed or oppressed. Did you learn this from Craig Martindale? You are imitating him to the ?T? and it stinks. A lot of other people have smelt what you have dealt here, and you should be ashamed. You are the TWI-2 spirit that we all know we don?t want. You are what went wrong with the ministry. You are the many villains that ruined things on the field thousands of miles from root locations.'
I wouldn't see steve as a villain. I haven't seen him name call. I think he is calling a spade a spade.
Originally posted by Mike:
karmicdebt,
'If you had been spiritually minded back then you?d have successfully fought against the abuses as they occurred. But you were no Nathan and neither was anyone else.'
How do you know or not that Karmic was spiritually minded back then? You are coming from the thought that it is all our faults that twi went down because we were not 'spiritual' enough. Why blame? That sounds like what twi did. The whole concept that the original twi was good and spiritual was built on sand mike. Sure there were a lot of great things happening and there were a lot of miracles and such. But it was because of what the christians were believing. They took the simple believing of what the Word of God and people were healed. Twi did not heal them. Vpw did not heal them. The roots of the tree did not heal them. It was God who healed them through the christians that believed that these miracles could happen. The evil part was vpw and his crowd taking over because they wanted their part and wanted the power, the recognition, and the money. You take that away and you have the simple believing joe and mary.
You are taking vpw's writings and beliefs and telling us that this is the Word of God. Not the bible. You are taking his life and his writings exhalting him to your highest.
Mike you can accept His Word or not accept it. That is up to you. But to accept God's Word you have to learn to be meek. God doesn't want us to accept mans word for it. Men can lie. Which you can see through vpw's works and life. His whole life was a crock with evil men to help and guide and take all the money. Vpw saw this ministry as a way for him to live an opulent life style. Take for instance the motorcycle in one of the threads. He told people his brother harry loved him so much he got him a motorcycle. When it was all said and done what happened was he had taken the money earmarked for twi and spent it on a motorcycle. Vpw was a habitual liar. His writings, yes while had some truth in them, was made for you and I to become puppets for him. That is why this whole thing stinks. That is why the early 70's fell was because vpw wanted all the credit.
I am not going to tell you what to believe mike. You are the one that has to deal with it. Your whole life is set up for bondage. Its almost like you want to be a martyr for Jesus. You want us to say as OLG's that we did wrong because we weren't spiritual enough. Bull Sh$t!!!! Where do you think that is coming from? I certainly don't believe my Father in heaven would say that to me. It is only to knock us down and feel guilty. I for one will never feel guilty for the ruination of twi. Twi did it itself by its whole set up and the people that set it up. They set it up to go among the sheep as wholes to devour us so they could become fat in riches. This is why it fell. Not because we weren't doing enough. It was not Godly from the beginning. If your not willing to accept this then that is your right. But you will continually not get it for the rest of your days because of it. Your setting yourself up for being in bondage for the rest of your life. Your in your fifties mike. Not a kid anymore. Stop blaming us and yourself for past mistakes that wasn't our fault!!!!!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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excathedra
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vickles
hey excie, C*** G**r didn't want it either.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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excathedra
too many kooks spoil the froth
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excathedra
okay, i was ....ed, i'll stay away, i hope
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hello Mike:
Before you started posting on Grease Spot Cafe we used to have Wierwille apologists that would occasionally post on this forum. They would say in essence that he was a good bible teacher and that in spite of his sins and weaknesses that he helped some people with his ministry. Well Mike, I think you might have chased them away because I don't see them or rarely see them on Grease Spot Cafe anymore. How did I do this you ask? Mike, your posts are so full of obvious idolatry that even Wierwille apologists see it. They don't even like it. Everyone that is except for you. This is actually a great contribution to this forum Mike. This is what many of us have tried to do here. However, only you could do it so effectively with your carnage of religious writings. Mike, I want to tell you again that I do appreciate your contributions to Grease Spot Cafe. However, some of us would like to see you delivered from the religious reasoning that afflicts you now. We would like to see you actually grow in a knowledge of Jesus Christ the Lord and Son of God. We would like to see you contribute in other ways on this forum other than being a guinea pig for everything that is wrong with PFAL infatuation. Nevertheless, if you feel that you must. Carry on. And thank you again for your contributions here.
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on June 13, 2003 at 17:36.]
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Steve Lortz:
You have earned the right to use the nickname
"O.L.G. extrordinare".
EWB
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Tom
Dang it if this thread doesn't grab my imagination - as well as a couple of other parts of my anatomy.
Oh, it has done so in so many ways.
For one thing - no, I can't start counting for this is a forever thread because Mike is involved in a forever task.
I said earlier that Mike reminded me of the sorcerers apprentice in the movie, Fantasia. Remember Mickey Mouse having been given his marching orders by the sorcerer to take out the water. Poor Mickey has this little bucket & the water keeps coming in until Mickey is like trying to empty the ocean in a hurricane?
I forget what statement of Mike's first reminded me of the sorcerer's apprentice, & I'm not going to go back & look it up - Mike, you're not doing anything, & I'm on break - or have you delivered some knowledge to me now that I'm responsible for, so I'm on the job again? One aspect of your job description seems to be telling others about responsibilities they are not fulfilling, so let me know.
Anyway, this latest sorcerer's apprentice allusion is too appropriate. Here is Mike studying the blue book like we all should. Let me get this straight - aww heck, I'm on break, so I'm not going to look it up, but the pint is that Mike said that it would take some number of years - seven maybe? - to really work the blue book, & that there are all those other books and mag articles, and by the time that the seven years was up, that was enough time for the knowledge to already start leaking out. So here is Mike, six years from now, still working the blue book - but what he has worked is already leaking out, & he hasn't even started the other books yet.
I'm still on break, on the inhale, Mike doubts he will be able to answer more than 1/2 the concerns posted here, & on the exhale, he hopes he will get to everyone.
Now this is totally rich! E.W. Bullinger shows up & certifies that Steve has earned the right to the appellation "O.L.G. extrordinare".
The man behind the curtain, the true sorcerer (true sorcerer, hmm) is dead, never having bestowed the appellation "O.L.G. extrordinare" on Mike.
The wicked witch hasn't even been identified, nevermind defeated (although several participants in this thread have been accused of being possessed).
I'm relegated to the poppy field for an indeterminant time period while Mike attempts to carry the ocean from the household bucket by bucket - seven years + time for leakage + the other books + the magazines + the other half of the questions that will not have been addressed + plus all the questions that will have been posed in all those years.
I don't know, Mike, but you seem to be heavy laden. Maybe it is my lazy OLG self, but I think you need to turn in your Lord for a saviour whose burden is light & easy who will give you rest.
Hey, what do I know, my leaky self hanging out in this poppy field?
Umm, for how long?
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Oakspear
I'm going to bed and have to work tomorrow...don't youse guys get all crazy while I'm gone!
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Thomas Heller:
The reason that I confirmed that Steve was an "OLG extrordinere" is that he asked if he was worthy of the title. I thought that his careful reading of Mike's confusing infomercial and his patient waits for Mike's circular replies earned Steve the right to that appellation.
Since British Victorians loved to give titles can I give one to you? On the previous page you ended a post with "ditch diggers anonymous", but that is sort of hard to work into a name. In your last post you made references to two 1930's movies. What do you think about "1930's movie OLG"?
EWB
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Steve Lortz
EWB - Thank you for your assessment of my efforts. Personally, I thought the fact that I am the spirit of TWI-2, that I am what went wrong with the ministry, and that I am "many villians" who wreaked ruination over thousands of miles should make me pretty extraordinary. But I'll accept your judgment, instead.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Danny - It's always good to hear from you. Do you read "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"? If you are an OLG, we could start the League of Extraordinary OLGs. Being invisible should certainly qualify you!
Love,
Steve
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Oakspear
Ubiquity is ubiquitous
piety superfluous
You don't need a blunderbus
To sound wise and mysterious
like the sage Confucious
this stuff is much too serious
and often it doth weary us
when it's supercilious
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
[This message was edited by Oakspear on June 14, 2003 at 21:48.]
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Steve Lortz
Mike, Mike, Mike! It's always such a hoot to read the things you write!
You wrote, "I don't look to spirits (there's that sneaky 'You're possessed!' line of yours again) for the spiritual understanding of PFAL, I ask THE Holy Spirit, my Daddy."
Please give us the citations for any places where I wrote "You're possessed!" Use the search function if you like. You won't find any because I've never written that.
How about this, "Did you know that it's very possible to receive a revelation from the devil, and not be possessed? Jesus Christ heard a voice and saw a vision, but he recognized the contradictions with the written Word... It wasn't like the devil looked ugly, with red skin, a tail and horns. He probably was the most beautiful thing Jesus had ever seen in his life! But Jesus wasn't fooled or distracted because he had spent so much time with the written Word."
YOU wrote that, Mike! It's about 3/4 of the way down page 12.
You also wrote, "Dr said we weren't responsible for thoughts that occur to us (devil revelations), but we ARE responsible for not letting them lodge (take up residence) in our hair."
ANY message from ANY spirit purporting that PFAL is God-breathed is devilish revelation, Mike, and you are responsible for letting it lodge in your hair. When you so longingly implore OLGs to "come back to PFAL" and to "master PFAL", you are asking them to let the lie take up residence in their minds, also.
You may very well be asking THE Holy Spirit, your Daddy, for understanding, Mike, but whose answers are you listening to?
You wrote, "As we master and learn the 5-senses messages in those books [PFAL, et al.], with repeated and thorough readings, we can then turn our attention to hear God whisper to us the hidden messages HE, GOD, put in there that our 5-senses would never pick up. Also the 5-senses readings help us build protection against devilish doctrines that are all around out there. Our adversary can and will attempt to whisper wrong meanings to us as we work the Word."
So... you can have TWO spirits whispering different meanings to you as you work the Word, Mike, God's and the devil's. How can you tell which whispering voice is whose? "...the 5-senses readings help us build protection against devilish doctrines..."
Wierwille wrote, "It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille's writings, or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, 'Search the Scriptures...' because all Scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; nor what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed."
The 5-senses meaning of this passage, according to all the laws of grammar, is as follows: Wierwille's words fall into the same catagory as the words of Shakespeare, Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, Roberts and denominational writings; the words in this catagory are different from the words in the catagory we call "Scripture" because ALL of the words in the Scripture catagory are necessarily God-breathed, while NOT ALL of the words in the other catagory are necessarily God-breathed.
So what happens, Mike, if I'm studying this passage of PFAL, and two voices whisper to me. One whispers, "Wierwille meant exactly what he wrote."
The other whispers, "We can't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote. The spiritual meaning of this passage is actually that some of what Wierwille wrote HAS TO BE God-breathed."
Remember, "...the 5-senses readings help us build protection against devilish doctrines..." Which whispering voice is whose, Mike? Which whispering voice is whose?
Love,
Steve
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Steve:
In respects with getting a straight answer from Mike I think you are beating a dead horse. In the twenty three (23!) pages of this thread I see very few clear answers from Mike. I also want to complement you for your honest discussion of your personal life a few pages ago. I too came from a spiritualist background and I know the siren call of ?the inner voices'.
I have a suggestion, why don't we give Mike a nickname? I suggest "horse whisperer OLG". Horse whisperers believe that they can communicate with animals and get answers or results that no one can duplicate. In the bible horses are often associated with idolatry. What are your thoughts?
EWB
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Steve Lortz
Now, now, Ethelbert. My goal is not necessarily to get a straight answer out of Mike. Only time will tell if that is going to happen. I would be happy if Mike admits the truth, even if only to himself, that the line of thinking he has staked his life on for the past five years is false.
That's a humbling thing to do, in itself. I don't think we need to generate any artificial humiliation.
With love, and most Victorian regards,
Your humble and obedient servant,
S. Lortz, OLG Extraordinaire
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Steve:
You truely do deserve the title "Steve Lortz, OLG Extraordinaire"
EWB
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rascal
Pardon me, while I derail a derailing...lol
Hey EWB, I think that you have the wrong idea about *horse whisperes* (possibly from a really stupid movie)
If you read *the man who listens to horses* by Monty Roberts... (really a great read.....contains a whole lot more than just horse communiction skills:-) you will understand that the Horse whisperer simply comprehends horse body language and knows how to communicate with them accordingly.
I personally raise and train my horses using these very effective methods.... nothing *spiritual* about it.... your just using body position ... stance .. and eye contact to communicate with the animal in a manner that they comprehend:-)
Due to a poor understanding of true nature of the situation, an inability to communicate in a manner that is comprehensible .. and a noted lack of sensitivity .... I believe the title of *horse whisperer in this case to be totally inapropriate ....sorry
[This message was edited by rascal on June 14, 2003 at 18:07.]
[This message was edited by rascal on June 14, 2003 at 18:09.]
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Mike
I'm getting some data ready so's this thread's topic steers away from me and back onto items that slipped passed us years ago.
We're witnessing now one on the mechanisms by which things slipped passed us then. It's not focusing on the Word but on personalities.
Looking with the 5-senses all about we can conclude that God Almighty is a mean, mean, mean God. Sure, just look at how devoted to His laws He is. When a baby falls out of a 20 story building and hits the sidewalk it DIES! Don?t you think a loving God would suspend His laws, like gravity, for a innocent baby!? But NO! Innocents are mercilessly killed every day!
The above paragraph is HEARTILY believed by a significant percentage of the population, and they think they have a lot of proof supporting their belief. I don?t believe it because I?ve seen that there is are spiritual laws and there are natural laws that God has set up, that IN THE LONG RUN will be best. In the meantime, those who are unaware of His ultimate plan are prone to think He is a mean, mean, mean God.
Ditto for the job Dr was given to do. It was a job that necessitated going against the god of this world in a way he hasn?t been challenged for 2000 years. Tough generals in wars MUST be mean, mean, mean or they lose the war.
Volunteers who join the generals staff should be prepared for a rough ride. Anyone who thinks it?s going to be a sweet fellowship picnic is not paying attention to the spiritual realities. We?ve got to look at the spiritual side of what happened to us in our Way experience.
When it finally dawns on you folks just exactly what Dr was sent to do for God and us, and that he succeeded, then all these perplexing situations that did arise will melt away. They?ll be GONE!
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