Mike, Steve Lortz is really trying to help you here on this thread. Do yourself a favor and please listen to him. I have known him on these threads for a few years now. He is not one to lie and I can see from his posts that he is being very patient with you.
You wrote: ?what about the fact Jesus Christ states the comforter, the holy spirit will teach us ALL things MIke? do you think He was just referring to those people at that time hearing His vioce??
I did answer these questions on page 21, about quarter of the way down, posted June 09, 2003 23:20. It was RIGHT after you asked it. My response was long, and right after you asked. My answer to THIS first question was that the INFORMATION and TEACHING was guaranteed by Jesus, but how direct or indirect that is depends on God?s decisions. I think he was referring to everyone hearing, but not to everyone hearing it DIRECTLY by manifestation of holy spirit or phenomena. I think most people get it by reading it. God directs us to which writings we should trust and there could be a lot of supernatural interaction there, but I think God designed the 5-senses to be an EXCELLENT way for the beginning student to get to know His heart. He then wants His children to grow up to His level of spiritual understanding. The way He does this most often is He favors those who have done their best with the 5-senses learning. This is Key #4 I mentioned above from the AC.
What I?ve just written stands in great agreement with a section of Steve Lortz?s latest post.
*****************
You wrote: ?If not then how is it we even need a teacher when He says we need no other teacher?? Well if that?s true then you shouldn?t have to teach me anything here. Reference the bible not pfal.?
But mj isn?t a KJV Bible actually a teaching from a set of teachers? From the translators and fragment catalogers?
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You wrote: ?when you talk you speak down at people, like you have arrived somwhere they can only try to achieve with your help, like your the ones with the answer and we need you to find the true meaning of God.?
Mj, I?m trying my best to not get deep about myself, but the material I?m promoting is VERY deep and VERY correct. When I proclaim this deep correctness that?s in PFAL, the attitude I have towards PFAL may appear like that?s how I feel about myself. It?s not, HONEST! I?m quite ashamed at how I totally blew it all those years on MANY things that Dr taught. I wish I was back then the man I know to be now, but at the same time, IT?S NOT TOO LATE to become the man I know to be.
I am often abrupt and sometimes harshly to the point (when I?m not horsing around), but sometimes my abruptness is due to the brevity of the time I have for typing at that particular time.
But regarding my tone ESPECIALLY try to keep in mind that I?m PRIMARILY talking to OLGs, who should know better. We OLGs blew it, me included. We?ve got to face our errors and fix them with ego and feelings shoved aside for a while. We?re 20 years late, and there?s no time to .....
If you?re not an OLG (and I think you?re not, if you are who I think you are) then YOU?RE INNOCENT!
I don?t mean to address all these harsh facts and truths to YOU, but to the leaders like me who blew it in 1985.
Where were you in 1985? I don?t think you were a ministry leader then, a witness to God being at work in Dr?s ministry to the point that you forsook career and fame and fortune to dedicate you life to PFAL. My harshness is addressed to THEM.
When I act uppity about the information I have it?s because I really do have some hot stuff that all OLGs need to hear. If you can?t relate to what I?m doing for OLGs here I UNDERSTAND, and I?m answering this now to help you understand. I don?t think that PFAL is going to work for everybody right now, but for OLGs I think it?s CRUCIAL.
Please, mj, when you look at my posts, try to think of them as letters addressed to someone else. You can learn from them, but when you think they?re addressed TO you, it can then get confusing and unnecessarily charged emotionally.
Now I just spent a lot of time answering these things, when I have a backlog of unanswered posts for others here from yesterday and the day before, plus some new ones from today. I just thought it was important that I not antagonize you. That?s NOT my heart at all, not now and not when you first contacted me. I?m only trying to help, and I hope I?m learning every day how to help better and not accidentally step on anyone?s toes.
Since I spent this time here with you, can you do me a favor? If you see these guys here who are lined up waiting for me to wrestle with pages of posts from them, if you see them getting down on me finger pointing for me not answering, can you sneak up behind them and crouch down on all fours right behind real close, so I can give them a gentle push backwards? This trick worked real good in Jr. High.
You wrote: ?Yet you never refer to the bible only pfal.?
Mj, remember that EVERY page of PFAL has Bible verses on it.
So every time I refer to PFAL, indirectly I?m referring to this VERY large collection of Bible verses.
It?s a collection larger than number of verses many people read in a number of year.
If I spend 2 hours reading PFAL, that means I?ve just read about 20 minutes of Bible verses and many more minutes going over the details of those verses.
So in this way when I refer to PFAL, I?m ALSO referring to the KJV Bible.
When I recommend reading PFAL, I?m recommending Bible reading.
There are a few places here where I?ve posted a large list of verses from the KJV.
quote:When Dr says something like ?the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God's Word? rest assured he is NOT talking about the KJV, NIV or any other version for our common reading. There was one set of common books we all had, PFAL, that he was talking about us reading for like-mindedness. Our KJVs are all different, combo wise.
BS Mike,
He was talking about the Word revealed through the Bible when the keys taught in PFAL were applied. PFAL was written to show folks how to get to God's Word that was in the BIBLE. This is why he said that "The greatest secret in the wold today is that the Bible IS the revealed Word and will of God. PfAL was provided as the standard by which to approach the Bible/scriptures in order fror THEM to reveal the Word that they held. VPW believed (presumed? ) that if everyone applied the keys the same that they would all come to the same interpretation of the scriptures and thus be doctrinally like-minded.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
You wrote: ?All I have to do is open my copy of the Blue Book and I can SEE exactly what Wierwille wrote!?
Yes, but don?t forget that there?s 6 other full size books, 1 booklet, and lots of magazine articles that comprise the written PFAL record, plus 3 other large dense books that deserve my consideration. If I?m REAL current and up on all that?s in the Blue book, then there?s some other books I haven?t had much time for lately. I?ve seen the practicality of ?lately? to be on the order of years. That?s time for leakage.
Another thing to keep in mind. It?s a phenomenon I saw repeatedly when discussing One God with trinitarians. They can read their KJVs, and I can show them a verse that contradicts their theology, but they?ll read it with a godawful twist and/or a blanked recognition. They can read it but at the same time they CAN?T read it! I?ve seen it dozens of times in others. Then when I came back to PFAL I saw it in me. I saw how attitudes of MINE can mis-color or even blank out altogether many passages in PFAL. I?ve found that we ALL at many times, when he was speaking and when he wrote, said to ourselves ?That?s jut Dr. He didn?t mean that.? Many people have testified EVEN HERE that they did this at times, especially after 1982.
Another think to keep in mind is a phenominon we?ve been taught about and that I?ll bet you?ve seen examples of. This is where an academic unbeliever comes to study the Bible as literature, and because of the attitude that the author was disjointed and very human, this academic is PRONE to miss things in the Bible. Not only in PFAL, but in many of the Google sites explaining ?Bible Contradictions? to be only apparant, OFTEN it?s the case that the report of a contradiction is due to the reporter?s attitude of disrespect for the ultimate Author.
The same happens with reading PFAL. If you have the attitude the best characterization of Dr?s heart was that of a sex pervert, then your reading will be skewed thusly. If you have the attitude that Dr was a pretty decent guy, and PFAL is a pretty decent Bible aid, then your reading will be affected again. I?m saying that if you read your Blue Book with the attitude that Dr was only a willing agent of the Real Author Who is The Holy Spirit, then you?re going to have a different reading experience.
I?m saying that a lot slipped by back then AND it slips by you right now TODAY when you read the Blue Book, because you have not made the proper attitude adjustments.
******************
You wrote: ?Then it struck me, you have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to you through a spirit... ANY vagrant spirit... that you no longer trust your sense perceptions, or your ability to understand them.?
Please, this is 100% off the mark! I was schooled as a scientist. I?ve detailed this much here. The reason I did NOT read PFAL with the attitude I recommended above is because I HIGHLY valued the 5-senses approach, EXCLUDING spirit. Science has rigorously and vigorously excluded spiritual ideas and data because it?s fraught with fraud. I viewed Dr with skepticism for 27 years, until I noticed that his public teachings EVENTUALLY passed EVERY 5-senses test I could devise. Some took years, but eventually he earned my 5-senses respect.
You need to completely re-tool your analysis of my situation. That Key #4 applies to GS too you know? If it?s possible for you to get 5-sense data on me, God expects you to do that before He gives you revelation. Doing computer searches is probably within your abilities, and you could have seen from the data I?ve posted that this guess was totally off the mark. What you just posted about me (?been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to you through a spirit?) is SOOOO off the mark, that I hope for your sake it was just a 5-senses goof. If you think you got revelation on that one, the vagrant spirit you mentioned may have found a believer and it?s not me.
****************
The next big chunk of you post was wrong about it?s guess on me, but accurate in bringing out the good points for the 5-senses realm. Remember, the only reason the 5-senses realm was bad was because Adam handed it over to the adversary. That was only temporary though. Jesus Christ bought it back. Some of my agreement with the contents of this section of yours is reflected in my post above to mj412.
I see the 5-senses realm as very good in the first heaven and earth, and good again in the third. Sense knowledge has a very good place in God?s creation: interacting with the garden and the animals. But when that realm is messed up, and we want to REALLY know God, then we must graduate from 5-senses understanding to spiritual. This is why Dr told his top leaders to master PFAL. They were operating on the 5-senses level and eventually the adversary, because he controls that realm, overpowered them like he did with Eve. It was slow, but eventually all us OLGs added a word to PFAL, then subtracted a word, and then changed a word. By the time 1986 rolled around we were primed for the frontal assault and we contradictd PFAL openly. It was slow.
***************
You wrote: ?Which brings us back to the question I asked in my post of April 24, 2003, 11:17, about half-way down page 12 of this thread, "How can a person distinguish between information that is coming from the holy spirit and information that is coming from demonic sources? Or in other words, how can a person detect counterfeit manifestations of the spirit?"?
Let me answer in a nutshell, again, even though I?ve gone into this several times here.
By mastering the written word with our 5-senses abilities, we THEN can also get into the spiritual. I am advocating here that we go the 5-senses route to read the facts in PFAL. This is step one. It?s not the end of this curriculum, though.
**************
You wrote: ?When Jesus Christ was in the desert, he was able to recognize and reject the source of his temptations because he used his human reason to compare the sensible facts of his situation with facts he had learned by reading God's sensible Word. Jesus used his 5-senses and his reason to ESTABLISH the truth, and thereby distinguish the false.?
I almost TOTALLY agree. I?d deviate slightly on WHEN he did the 5-senses work. I think that was PRIOR to going into the desert. Once there he was operating manifestation, having just come from John?s baptism and receiving spirit.
*************
You wrote: ?False spirits don't want us to be able to distinguish the true from the false, because then, we would recognize them for what they are, false spirits. So they do everything they can to undermine our confidence in our God-given 5-senses and our God-given ability to reason.?
Yes, and the primary way the accomplish this is by casting aspersions on the Word of God. They?ll take something God has worked, and say it?s only man?s work, and then they?ll dredge up all the man?s sins who worked 40 years with God to get His revelations into written form for others? benefit. Those spirits are good at that I?ll agree. They?re so subtle they can get you to think I have been listening to them.
*************
You wrote: ?It's difficult to be certain of something that was written 2000 years ago in a foreign language to a foreign culture. We have to rely SO heavily on translators and interpreters. We ought to be able to KNOW something that was written in our own language, and our own culture, less than a lifetime ago!?
AMEN! That?s PFAL!
**************
You wrote: ?How did it get to this place, Mike, where you can't even KNOW what's plainly written in front of your face, without alien spirits to translate and interpret for you??
Well, Steve, this is where I came in here. I started this post showing you how YOU can think you know the Blue Book form long ago, yet with the attitude you?ve been tricked into now, you can?t read it and see it.
So, the end of all this round and round is that you think I?ve heard spirits of error, and I think you?ve heard spirits of error. If your next post is just another thinly veiled literary maneuvering for you to lay aside the huge volume of data I?ve posted and point your finger at me and say the internet equivalent of ?You?re possessed!? then forget it. It bores me. Let?s talk about the data and not me, ok?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 2:40.]
I just had a quick question: Do you only read my posts that are addressed to you? If so, that would explain a lot as to how you mis-read me so intensely last post.
It seems you read into me the attitudes YOU had prior to PFAL. Honest, I was very much into avoiding spiritual knowledge, except for a short psychedelic fling in the 60's. I was a total sense knowledge feek.
I posted this several times, but it was in posts not addressed to you, so I thought maybe that's why you missed it.
You wrote: ?What the heck is "combo wise?" KJVS are the same version of the bible. That's why it's called a version. Again, what the heck is "combo wise?" Please don't tell me it's one of YOUR code words to get to Dr.'s code words.?
First of all, what it is NOT:
The "wise" in this is NOT in reference to wisdom. It's in the sense of a type or style. "Combo wise" means "with reference to combo" or "in the style of a combo" and NOT "wisdom towards combo."
Now for what it IS:
When we say the original Bible is our only rule for faith and practice, of course we don?t mean our KJV. What we mean is an abstract notion of the originals. This is not a printed book we can buy and put into our hands. It?s something we?ve built more in our head than have printed on paper. SOME of it is printed in our own handwriting in our wide margins, correcting and augmenting the KJV. SOME of it is in our heads from much working of Youngs, Bulinger, interlinears and other versions over the years. SOME of it is in other books like Kenyon or others who have explained things for us better than KJV and we keep track of these secondary sources of knowledge on God?s Word in our head. SOME of it is in the books like interlinear or Youngs but it?s FUTURE knowledge that we haven?t attained yet, but we?re fairly confident we can find it if and when we need it.
This combo of ways we access the abstract ?Only Rule? are subject to our human frailties and therefore only approximate, but we can tune it up at times. We don?t access God?s Word vial a printed book or set of books. We access it through this complex combo, and EVERYONE?S ?combo Word? is a little different. As time goes by these ?combo Word of God?s we build (broken cisterns they are) grow in different directions due to differences in our human frailties.
I sometimes challenge friends to consider the following. I have presented the notion that Dr's books are authoritative, and that they are just as good as having God Almighty standing before us speaking the same words. If this is not true, then it's the sad case that you do not have a single book in your library that is bigger than you. All your books, and every passage in them are subject to new "discovery" as being not quite true. You can white-out and change ANYTHING that is in print if you happen to come across some other evidence that convinces you otherwise. Then, that very same evidence is subject to similar challenges in the future, and so on.
Can you to find in your library one single book that's "bigger" than you? Can you find one that you dare not alter or disagree with, but that you can rise up to because it's bigger than you? I think you can, that is, if you still have your PFAL books.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 2:12.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 2:41.]
I?m not saying that the Bible, as handed down through centuries, is worthless. I?m saying that with the principles of the class MASTERED, then we can see these quite decent remnants come to life, GREATER LIFE that any human translators or human Bible teachers could ever do.
This was a very valuable exercise that many OLGs did successfully do, hence their commendable commitment prior to the 1982?-85 period.
Now, IN ADDITION to that, there was a next chapter in our adventure, but that was one we missed. What we should have seen in 1982-85 but missed, was that in addition to God supplying us grads all these great remnant repair principles in PFAL, HE, He God, also supplied us grads WITH remnant repair principles, many words added (that were not in the originals), like in Jer.36, because IT?S TIME!
We missed it, that our ?Bible aid? in PFAL was not a mere human device, a man-breathed Bible aid, but was God?s great revelation to His kids that it?s time to come UP, it's time to get a spiritual view from God?s perspective. It?s time to meet the lord in the air. It's time for learning the perfectly renewed mind. These are things I have NOT posted very much on yet. I?ve only hinted in a minimal way at this, but it seems to slip by people.
As you said, IF everyone applied the keys we?d be like minded. Unfortunately none of us really thoroughly MASTERED ALL the keys, so instead we came up with fatal differences by 1986. When we all master PFAL (like Dr undeniably told us to do) then we?ll be like minded, and not until.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:29.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:31.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:33.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:34.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:35.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:38.]
I was a test driver for a moped company for a few months in the early 1980's, and did long distance trips along the California coast to San Francisco. I might have stayed there, but most of those memories are leaking out fast. I do have a lot of photos from those high adventures to hang on to, though.
But other than possibly me, I know of no other. I may have fallen asleep on the lawn there. I did a lot of that.
But that brings up the question of ?Why would you ask??
Goey - I agree with your post of June 13, 2003, 00:57, one hundred percent.
Mike - You wrote, "...They [trinitarians] can read their KJVs, and I can show them a verse that contradicts their theology, but they'll read it with a godawful twist and/or a blanked recognition. They can read it but at the same time they CAN'T read it."
This from the man who writes to me, as I sit with a copy of the Blue Book open in my hand, "We just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote..." Talk about your godawful twists and/or blanked recognition!
I wrote, "It's difficult to be certain of something that was written 2000 years ago in a foreign language to a foreign culture. We have to rely SO heavily on translators and interpreters. We ought to be able to KNOW something that was written in our own language, and our own culture, less than a lifetime ago."
To which you replied, Mike, "AMEN! That's PFAL!"
If that's truly the case, then why do we need spirits to reveal meanings of words and grammar that contradict the meanings of the words and the grammar ACTUALLY WRITTEN in PFAL?
Mike, you will never have the likemindedness you promote, because noone will ever be sucked into believing that pfal was the 20th centuries replacement for the bible....not even the most ardent vp fans will swallow THAT one.
Mike the folks trying to *educate* you here imo, are really perceptive.... some, more tactfully than the rest of us. The simple fact that you cannot leave off your agenda long enough to consider the wisdom of their posts, speaks volumes about the true state of your mental/spirutual acuity......To all appearances, (yeah that pesky 5 senses thing again lol) you have closed your ears to God
Your willingness to dismiss the first hand accounts of vp`s personal treachery and villainy to your brothers and sisters right here in the forums, as *regretably necessary* (so that the rest of us could all recieve God`s new and improved word).. clearly displays how you have hardened your heart....
closed mind ... closed heart... dicey doctrine (from a matf).... I wish you could see how your *mission* is destroying you Mike.
p.s. Though I see that you have relegated me once again to the *low priority file* I want you to understand THIS .... that *GOD* doesn`t EVER view me or anybody else here as *low priority*
I think I`m gonna sign myself off as an oPg (older peon grad) though a grad from the *early* days as you refer to them, I never climbed higher than a tc up twi`s food chain.
Rascalrescued oPg extraodinaire:-)
[This message was edited by rascal on June 13, 2003 at 11:47.]
I was trying to be nice to you, and to let you know that my harsh words on GS were NOT directed at you.
My calling you "innocent" was a figure of speech to describe how I don't have ANY feelings toward you of you having blown it in 1985 and hurt thousands of people. My use of the word "innocent" was NOT a judicial pronouncement on my part. It was NOT condescension toward you in any way.
I didn?t tell you to shut up. What I did suggest is that you remind yourself that when I sound tough, it?s NOT because I?m want you to feel bad. When I sound tough here it?s because the group of people I AM trying to address are very tough themselves and the only way to get their attention is with a ?ball bat.? That?s a figure of speech again, not advocating violence.
Far from shutting up, I was asking you to LIGHTEN UP, and not take my posts as talking about you.
Far from shutting up, I was asking you to FIGURATIVELY help me deal with a lot of others who are ?tap tap tapping? and demanding answers of me, like you were a few posts ago. I thought if I showed you how I DID answer you post and it just slipped by you, then you?d feel grateful and help me with the line of posters. So, just the opposite of shutting you up, I was asking you to consider ?going to bat? (another baseball figure of speech) for me a little, kinda like the way Ginger Tea did last night. A few others have done it at times and no one threw them out of the game (baseball again).
When I brought up that Jr. High prank mind picture, it was to get a laugh. Come on, mj, let?s be friends.
Did you see how reading PFAL means reading the Bible?
Did you see how I DID answer your question about Jesus and holy spirit teaching?
Please look at my heart, and don?t think I?m up to evil.
The 5-senses mastery is the first step (AC Key #4). This gives us the 5-senses meaning that God intended.
THEN, after we do that, God has other things to reveal. I don't look to spirits (there's that sneaky "You're possessed!" line of yours again) for the spiritual understanding of PFAL, I ask THE Holy Spirit, my Daddy.
Steve, your modus operundi is out in the open. You will take in everything I say, and you will maneuver everything you write to either overtly or covertly (this latest was covert) say that I'm possessed or oppressed. Did you learn this from Craig Martindale? You are imitating him to the ?T? and it stinks. A lot of other people have smelt what you have dealt here, and you should be ashamed. You are the TWI-2 spirit that we all know we don?t want. You are what went wrong with the ministry. You are the many villains that ruined things on the field thousands of miles from root locations.
Let?s see how many more ploys you mount to avoid dealing with the data and concentrate on my ?spiritual problems.?
You didn?t answer my question about whether you read my other posts not addressed to you. When you started that idiotic thread to pry some admission from me months ago it looked to be the case that you were entirely unaware of the gist of what others were saying and about why I was keeping silent. You?re myopic and stuck in a tunnel vision where you cannot err in your reading but I can. Yet you avoid the mass of 5-senses details to the contrary.
You have no comment on your HUGE recent error in thinking I was turned off to the 5-senses approach?
You avoid the data and the details of what I post, EVEN TO YOU, and just chug along with your cheap imitation of Peter Falk?s ?Columbo.?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 13:36.]
I was never higher on the totem pole that a tc also.
I don?t have a heart to ignore you, but when you say things we already talked about and/or that are so off the wall, then, yes, I refrain from responding to the words you post. I read them, wish I had the time to go into ALL the details to set you straight, and then make a decision to move on or not. I have to do this dozens of times whenever I sit down and deal with a handful of posts. You are not alone in the filtering process time demands of me. I do read them.
I find your attitude toward Dr repugnant and sinful and off the Word.
There is only one thing manifesting itself from your heart in your posts and it?s not love to God or appreciation as to how master4fully He arraigned for us to hear the Word in the richness we did.
There is only one thing manifesting itself from your heart in your posts and it?s bitterness/revenge/hatred.
I suggest you consider dedicating your life to something positive, rather than defining yourself by what you hate.
Like my suggestion to Steve, try starting a thread ADVOCATING something positive like ?...whatsoever things are of good report, think on THESE things...?
If you try, you will quickly see that you HAVE no positive message to offer, not REALLY.
You are not building up anything, except a literary skill for tearing down.
Try building up something. It?s a much more useful skill.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 13:34.]
The only time Mike seems to show scripture is when he is trying to use it against someone to make their motivations evil or ungodly or unloving...Jesus taught us to confront abuses of the truth. We don't need to whitewash it with love and god bless yous and niceties. Jesus didn't. Neither will some of us.
It is not bitter to say the truth. Some of us are not bitter at all. We accept that we have learned from our mistakes and are helping others. We are just on the opposite side of reality than you, Mike. We are as convinced as you are convinced. How long will this battle rage on? As long as you keep waving the PFAL banner I guess...
If you had been spiritually minded back then you?d have successfully fought against the abuses as they occurred. But you were no Nathan and neither was anyone else.
So now 20 years later you get real spiritual, doing all kinds of detective work to uncover what supposedly went on right under your noses. It?s obvious you didn?t have a lick of genuine spiritual insight then, and there?s nothing but a lot of moaning and groaning that?s happened since then, so I wouldn?t put any stock into your spiritual insight now. It?s all 5-senses, and under the supervision of that god who got control of the Natural Realm from Adam.
All your ?rooting out error and evil? is 20 years late, and the adversary has blinded the effort to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I?ve painstakingly shown here that the system of TVTs that developed in the late 70?s and early 80?s was extremely counterfeit and devilish. THAT?S where you should be rooting out things.
Rascal is not defining herself by what she hates, she is pointing it out and identifying it...two different things. She is a wife and a mother (of a large brood, btw) and therefore has plenty to occupy her life besides her opinion of Wierwille.
Rascal's attitude toward "Doctor" is only sinful, etc. if he was "The Man of God", which there is scant evidense for, and which she does not believe ( as I do not) . You, of course, are entitled to your opinion.
You can only be "thankful for how God has materfully arranged for us to hear the Word" via Wierwille and PFAL if you believe that God did in fact do the arranging. There is plenty of evidense to indicate that God did not have anything to do with it, but that Wierwille copied the works of others.
By saying this, I am not trying to change your mind, which is, as you have said, made up on the subject, just to put things in perspective regarding those of us who don't see things the way you do
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
If you had been spiritually minded back then you?d have successfully fought against the abuses as they occurred. But you were no Nathan and neither was anyone else.
Oh, horse.... Mike.
Anyone who fought against the abuses was driven out, both under Wierwille and Martindale. The record is pretty clear (TWI1, TWI2, TWI3 thread for starters)
I'll grant that for many, the abuses are seen with 20/20 hindsight, and were missed as they were occurring, but many others spoke up and were thrown out on their ears...it was Wierwille's game all along.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Oakspear
Combo-Wise © is a variety of snack whereby several types of Wise © potato chips are included in the same multi-bag package.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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mj412
I think Mike believes he is above the combo wise chips of this day . haha
He supercedes any lowly bible verse with the all powerful abundnt living book!!!
please answer my question Mike I am on pins and needles waiting for what page this could be on...
oops I lied about the pins and needles part but please do answer me about the verse I quoted from Jesus Christ.
or ignore it and twist things around to make it look like it is all about you once again.
waiting tap tap tap .....
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Mark Sanguinetti
Mike, Steve Lortz is really trying to help you here on this thread. Do yourself a favor and please listen to him. I have known him on these threads for a few years now. He is not one to lie and I can see from his posts that he is being very patient with you.
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Mike
mj412
You wrote: ?what about the fact Jesus Christ states the comforter, the holy spirit will teach us ALL things MIke? do you think He was just referring to those people at that time hearing His vioce??
I did answer these questions on page 21, about quarter of the way down, posted June 09, 2003 23:20. It was RIGHT after you asked it. My response was long, and right after you asked. My answer to THIS first question was that the INFORMATION and TEACHING was guaranteed by Jesus, but how direct or indirect that is depends on God?s decisions. I think he was referring to everyone hearing, but not to everyone hearing it DIRECTLY by manifestation of holy spirit or phenomena. I think most people get it by reading it. God directs us to which writings we should trust and there could be a lot of supernatural interaction there, but I think God designed the 5-senses to be an EXCELLENT way for the beginning student to get to know His heart. He then wants His children to grow up to His level of spiritual understanding. The way He does this most often is He favors those who have done their best with the 5-senses learning. This is Key #4 I mentioned above from the AC.
What I?ve just written stands in great agreement with a section of Steve Lortz?s latest post.
*****************
You wrote: ?If not then how is it we even need a teacher when He says we need no other teacher?? Well if that?s true then you shouldn?t have to teach me anything here. Reference the bible not pfal.?
But mj isn?t a KJV Bible actually a teaching from a set of teachers? From the translators and fragment catalogers?
****************
You wrote: ?when you talk you speak down at people, like you have arrived somwhere they can only try to achieve with your help, like your the ones with the answer and we need you to find the true meaning of God.?
Mj, I?m trying my best to not get deep about myself, but the material I?m promoting is VERY deep and VERY correct. When I proclaim this deep correctness that?s in PFAL, the attitude I have towards PFAL may appear like that?s how I feel about myself. It?s not, HONEST! I?m quite ashamed at how I totally blew it all those years on MANY things that Dr taught. I wish I was back then the man I know to be now, but at the same time, IT?S NOT TOO LATE to become the man I know to be.
I am often abrupt and sometimes harshly to the point (when I?m not horsing around), but sometimes my abruptness is due to the brevity of the time I have for typing at that particular time.
But regarding my tone ESPECIALLY try to keep in mind that I?m PRIMARILY talking to OLGs, who should know better. We OLGs blew it, me included. We?ve got to face our errors and fix them with ego and feelings shoved aside for a while. We?re 20 years late, and there?s no time to .....
If you?re not an OLG (and I think you?re not, if you are who I think you are) then YOU?RE INNOCENT!
I don?t mean to address all these harsh facts and truths to YOU, but to the leaders like me who blew it in 1985.
Where were you in 1985? I don?t think you were a ministry leader then, a witness to God being at work in Dr?s ministry to the point that you forsook career and fame and fortune to dedicate you life to PFAL. My harshness is addressed to THEM.
When I act uppity about the information I have it?s because I really do have some hot stuff that all OLGs need to hear. If you can?t relate to what I?m doing for OLGs here I UNDERSTAND, and I?m answering this now to help you understand. I don?t think that PFAL is going to work for everybody right now, but for OLGs I think it?s CRUCIAL.
Please, mj, when you look at my posts, try to think of them as letters addressed to someone else. You can learn from them, but when you think they?re addressed TO you, it can then get confusing and unnecessarily charged emotionally.
Now I just spent a lot of time answering these things, when I have a backlog of unanswered posts for others here from yesterday and the day before, plus some new ones from today. I just thought it was important that I not antagonize you. That?s NOT my heart at all, not now and not when you first contacted me. I?m only trying to help, and I hope I?m learning every day how to help better and not accidentally step on anyone?s toes.
Since I spent this time here with you, can you do me a favor? If you see these guys here who are lined up waiting for me to wrestle with pages of posts from them, if you see them getting down on me finger pointing for me not answering, can you sneak up behind them and crouch down on all fours right behind real close, so I can give them a gentle push backwards? This trick worked real good in Jr. High.
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Mike
mj412,
I just found more to you post I didn?t answer.
You wrote: ?Yet you never refer to the bible only pfal.?
Mj, remember that EVERY page of PFAL has Bible verses on it.
So every time I refer to PFAL, indirectly I?m referring to this VERY large collection of Bible verses.
It?s a collection larger than number of verses many people read in a number of year.
If I spend 2 hours reading PFAL, that means I?ve just read about 20 minutes of Bible verses and many more minutes going over the details of those verses.
So in this way when I refer to PFAL, I?m ALSO referring to the KJV Bible.
When I recommend reading PFAL, I?m recommending Bible reading.
There are a few places here where I?ve posted a large list of verses from the KJV.
MJ401020! I?m not guilty of this charge!
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Goey
BS Mike,
He was talking about the Word revealed through the Bible when the keys taught in PFAL were applied. PFAL was written to show folks how to get to God's Word that was in the BIBLE. This is why he said that "The greatest secret in the wold today is that the Bible IS the revealed Word and will of God. PfAL was provided as the standard by which to approach the Bible/scriptures in order fror THEM to reveal the Word that they held. VPW believed (presumed? ) that if everyone applied the keys the same that they would all come to the same interpretation of the scriptures and thus be doctrinally like-minded.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Mike
Steve Lortz,
You wrote: ?All I have to do is open my copy of the Blue Book and I can SEE exactly what Wierwille wrote!?
Yes, but don?t forget that there?s 6 other full size books, 1 booklet, and lots of magazine articles that comprise the written PFAL record, plus 3 other large dense books that deserve my consideration. If I?m REAL current and up on all that?s in the Blue book, then there?s some other books I haven?t had much time for lately. I?ve seen the practicality of ?lately? to be on the order of years. That?s time for leakage.
Another thing to keep in mind. It?s a phenomenon I saw repeatedly when discussing One God with trinitarians. They can read their KJVs, and I can show them a verse that contradicts their theology, but they?ll read it with a godawful twist and/or a blanked recognition. They can read it but at the same time they CAN?T read it! I?ve seen it dozens of times in others. Then when I came back to PFAL I saw it in me. I saw how attitudes of MINE can mis-color or even blank out altogether many passages in PFAL. I?ve found that we ALL at many times, when he was speaking and when he wrote, said to ourselves ?That?s jut Dr. He didn?t mean that.? Many people have testified EVEN HERE that they did this at times, especially after 1982.
Another think to keep in mind is a phenominon we?ve been taught about and that I?ll bet you?ve seen examples of. This is where an academic unbeliever comes to study the Bible as literature, and because of the attitude that the author was disjointed and very human, this academic is PRONE to miss things in the Bible. Not only in PFAL, but in many of the Google sites explaining ?Bible Contradictions? to be only apparant, OFTEN it?s the case that the report of a contradiction is due to the reporter?s attitude of disrespect for the ultimate Author.
The same happens with reading PFAL. If you have the attitude the best characterization of Dr?s heart was that of a sex pervert, then your reading will be skewed thusly. If you have the attitude that Dr was a pretty decent guy, and PFAL is a pretty decent Bible aid, then your reading will be affected again. I?m saying that if you read your Blue Book with the attitude that Dr was only a willing agent of the Real Author Who is The Holy Spirit, then you?re going to have a different reading experience.
I?m saying that a lot slipped by back then AND it slips by you right now TODAY when you read the Blue Book, because you have not made the proper attitude adjustments.
******************
You wrote: ?Then it struck me, you have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to you through a spirit... ANY vagrant spirit... that you no longer trust your sense perceptions, or your ability to understand them.?
Please, this is 100% off the mark! I was schooled as a scientist. I?ve detailed this much here. The reason I did NOT read PFAL with the attitude I recommended above is because I HIGHLY valued the 5-senses approach, EXCLUDING spirit. Science has rigorously and vigorously excluded spiritual ideas and data because it?s fraught with fraud. I viewed Dr with skepticism for 27 years, until I noticed that his public teachings EVENTUALLY passed EVERY 5-senses test I could devise. Some took years, but eventually he earned my 5-senses respect.
You need to completely re-tool your analysis of my situation. That Key #4 applies to GS too you know? If it?s possible for you to get 5-sense data on me, God expects you to do that before He gives you revelation. Doing computer searches is probably within your abilities, and you could have seen from the data I?ve posted that this guess was totally off the mark. What you just posted about me (?been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to you through a spirit?) is SOOOO off the mark, that I hope for your sake it was just a 5-senses goof. If you think you got revelation on that one, the vagrant spirit you mentioned may have found a believer and it?s not me.
****************
The next big chunk of you post was wrong about it?s guess on me, but accurate in bringing out the good points for the 5-senses realm. Remember, the only reason the 5-senses realm was bad was because Adam handed it over to the adversary. That was only temporary though. Jesus Christ bought it back. Some of my agreement with the contents of this section of yours is reflected in my post above to mj412.
I see the 5-senses realm as very good in the first heaven and earth, and good again in the third. Sense knowledge has a very good place in God?s creation: interacting with the garden and the animals. But when that realm is messed up, and we want to REALLY know God, then we must graduate from 5-senses understanding to spiritual. This is why Dr told his top leaders to master PFAL. They were operating on the 5-senses level and eventually the adversary, because he controls that realm, overpowered them like he did with Eve. It was slow, but eventually all us OLGs added a word to PFAL, then subtracted a word, and then changed a word. By the time 1986 rolled around we were primed for the frontal assault and we contradictd PFAL openly. It was slow.
***************
You wrote: ?Which brings us back to the question I asked in my post of April 24, 2003, 11:17, about half-way down page 12 of this thread, "How can a person distinguish between information that is coming from the holy spirit and information that is coming from demonic sources? Or in other words, how can a person detect counterfeit manifestations of the spirit?"?
Let me answer in a nutshell, again, even though I?ve gone into this several times here.
By mastering the written word with our 5-senses abilities, we THEN can also get into the spiritual. I am advocating here that we go the 5-senses route to read the facts in PFAL. This is step one. It?s not the end of this curriculum, though.
**************
You wrote: ?When Jesus Christ was in the desert, he was able to recognize and reject the source of his temptations because he used his human reason to compare the sensible facts of his situation with facts he had learned by reading God's sensible Word. Jesus used his 5-senses and his reason to ESTABLISH the truth, and thereby distinguish the false.?
I almost TOTALLY agree. I?d deviate slightly on WHEN he did the 5-senses work. I think that was PRIOR to going into the desert. Once there he was operating manifestation, having just come from John?s baptism and receiving spirit.
*************
You wrote: ?False spirits don't want us to be able to distinguish the true from the false, because then, we would recognize them for what they are, false spirits. So they do everything they can to undermine our confidence in our God-given 5-senses and our God-given ability to reason.?
Yes, and the primary way the accomplish this is by casting aspersions on the Word of God. They?ll take something God has worked, and say it?s only man?s work, and then they?ll dredge up all the man?s sins who worked 40 years with God to get His revelations into written form for others? benefit. Those spirits are good at that I?ll agree. They?re so subtle they can get you to think I have been listening to them.
*************
You wrote: ?It's difficult to be certain of something that was written 2000 years ago in a foreign language to a foreign culture. We have to rely SO heavily on translators and interpreters. We ought to be able to KNOW something that was written in our own language, and our own culture, less than a lifetime ago!?
AMEN! That?s PFAL!
**************
You wrote: ?How did it get to this place, Mike, where you can't even KNOW what's plainly written in front of your face, without alien spirits to translate and interpret for you??
Well, Steve, this is where I came in here. I started this post showing you how YOU can think you know the Blue Book form long ago, yet with the attitude you?ve been tricked into now, you can?t read it and see it.
So, the end of all this round and round is that you think I?ve heard spirits of error, and I think you?ve heard spirits of error. If your next post is just another thinly veiled literary maneuvering for you to lay aside the huge volume of data I?ve posted and point your finger at me and say the internet equivalent of ?You?re possessed!? then forget it. It bores me. Let?s talk about the data and not me, ok?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 2:40.]
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Mike
Steve,
I just had a quick question: Do you only read my posts that are addressed to you? If so, that would explain a lot as to how you mis-read me so intensely last post.
It seems you read into me the attitudes YOU had prior to PFAL. Honest, I was very much into avoiding spiritual knowledge, except for a short psychedelic fling in the 60's. I was a total sense knowledge feek.
I posted this several times, but it was in posts not addressed to you, so I thought maybe that's why you missed it.
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Mike
Exy,
You wrote: ?yeah well my 5 senses tell me veepee was an a$$hole at times?
I agree.
So am I at times.
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Mike
Thomas Heller,
You wrote: ?What the heck is "combo wise?" KJVS are the same version of the bible. That's why it's called a version. Again, what the heck is "combo wise?" Please don't tell me it's one of YOUR code words to get to Dr.'s code words.?
First of all, what it is NOT:
The "wise" in this is NOT in reference to wisdom. It's in the sense of a type or style. "Combo wise" means "with reference to combo" or "in the style of a combo" and NOT "wisdom towards combo."
Now for what it IS:
When we say the original Bible is our only rule for faith and practice, of course we don?t mean our KJV. What we mean is an abstract notion of the originals. This is not a printed book we can buy and put into our hands. It?s something we?ve built more in our head than have printed on paper. SOME of it is printed in our own handwriting in our wide margins, correcting and augmenting the KJV. SOME of it is in our heads from much working of Youngs, Bulinger, interlinears and other versions over the years. SOME of it is in other books like Kenyon or others who have explained things for us better than KJV and we keep track of these secondary sources of knowledge on God?s Word in our head. SOME of it is in the books like interlinear or Youngs but it?s FUTURE knowledge that we haven?t attained yet, but we?re fairly confident we can find it if and when we need it.
This combo of ways we access the abstract ?Only Rule? are subject to our human frailties and therefore only approximate, but we can tune it up at times. We don?t access God?s Word vial a printed book or set of books. We access it through this complex combo, and EVERYONE?S ?combo Word? is a little different. As time goes by these ?combo Word of God?s we build (broken cisterns they are) grow in different directions due to differences in our human frailties.
I sometimes challenge friends to consider the following. I have presented the notion that Dr's books are authoritative, and that they are just as good as having God Almighty standing before us speaking the same words. If this is not true, then it's the sad case that you do not have a single book in your library that is bigger than you. All your books, and every passage in them are subject to new "discovery" as being not quite true. You can white-out and change ANYTHING that is in print if you happen to come across some other evidence that convinces you otherwise. Then, that very same evidence is subject to similar challenges in the future, and so on.
Can you to find in your library one single book that's "bigger" than you? Can you find one that you dare not alter or disagree with, but that you can rise up to because it's bigger than you? I think you can, that is, if you still have your PFAL books.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 2:12.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 2:41.]
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Mike
Goey,
I?m not saying that the Bible, as handed down through centuries, is worthless. I?m saying that with the principles of the class MASTERED, then we can see these quite decent remnants come to life, GREATER LIFE that any human translators or human Bible teachers could ever do.
This was a very valuable exercise that many OLGs did successfully do, hence their commendable commitment prior to the 1982?-85 period.
Now, IN ADDITION to that, there was a next chapter in our adventure, but that was one we missed. What we should have seen in 1982-85 but missed, was that in addition to God supplying us grads all these great remnant repair principles in PFAL, HE, He God, also supplied us grads WITH remnant repair principles, many words added (that were not in the originals), like in Jer.36, because IT?S TIME!
We missed it, that our ?Bible aid? in PFAL was not a mere human device, a man-breathed Bible aid, but was God?s great revelation to His kids that it?s time to come UP, it's time to get a spiritual view from God?s perspective. It?s time to meet the lord in the air. It's time for learning the perfectly renewed mind. These are things I have NOT posted very much on yet. I?ve only hinted in a minimal way at this, but it seems to slip by people.
As you said, IF everyone applied the keys we?d be like minded. Unfortunately none of us really thoroughly MASTERED ALL the keys, so instead we came up with fatal differences by 1986. When we all master PFAL (like Dr undeniably told us to do) then we?ll be like minded, and not until.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:29.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:31.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:33.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:34.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:35.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 4:38.]
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Mike
Well, I?m out of gas, and I haven?t even started answering yesterday?s backlog or the day before?s.
IF there are any pressing items there please feel free to repeat or paste them in again.
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Mike
Ginger,
I was a test driver for a moped company for a few months in the early 1980's, and did long distance trips along the California coast to San Francisco. I might have stayed there, but most of those memories are leaking out fast. I do have a lot of photos from those high adventures to hang on to, though.
But other than possibly me, I know of no other. I may have fallen asleep on the lawn there. I did a lot of that.
But that brings up the question of ?Why would you ask??
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mj412
God favors certain people because they study in a certain way ,you can judge who is innocent and who is guilty.
Then you ask me to get on all fours and wait for you to push someone on top of me like junior high school.
You say filthy things to me and ask me to shut up.
because you have more important things to do , like judging who is innocent and who isnt , etc.
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Steve Lortz
Goey - I agree with your post of June 13, 2003, 00:57, one hundred percent.
Mike - You wrote, "...They [trinitarians] can read their KJVs, and I can show them a verse that contradicts their theology, but they'll read it with a godawful twist and/or a blanked recognition. They can read it but at the same time they CAN'T read it."
This from the man who writes to me, as I sit with a copy of the Blue Book open in my hand, "We just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote..." Talk about your godawful twists and/or blanked recognition!
I wrote, "It's difficult to be certain of something that was written 2000 years ago in a foreign language to a foreign culture. We have to rely SO heavily on translators and interpreters. We ought to be able to KNOW something that was written in our own language, and our own culture, less than a lifetime ago."
To which you replied, Mike, "AMEN! That's PFAL!"
If that's truly the case, then why do we need spirits to reveal meanings of words and grammar that contradict the meanings of the words and the grammar ACTUALLY WRITTEN in PFAL?
More later about trying the spirits.
Love,
Steve, OLG extraordinaire
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rascal
Mike, you will never have the likemindedness you promote, because noone will ever be sucked into believing that pfal was the 20th centuries replacement for the bible....not even the most ardent vp fans will swallow THAT one.
Mike the folks trying to *educate* you here imo, are really perceptive.... some, more tactfully than the rest of us. The simple fact that you cannot leave off your agenda long enough to consider the wisdom of their posts, speaks volumes about the true state of your mental/spirutual acuity......To all appearances, (yeah that pesky 5 senses thing again lol) you have closed your ears to God
Your willingness to dismiss the first hand accounts of vp`s personal treachery and villainy to your brothers and sisters right here in the forums, as *regretably necessary* (so that the rest of us could all recieve God`s new and improved word).. clearly displays how you have hardened your heart....
closed mind ... closed heart... dicey doctrine (from a matf).... I wish you could see how your *mission* is destroying you Mike.
p.s. Though I see that you have relegated me once again to the *low priority file* I want you to understand THIS .... that *GOD* doesn`t EVER view me or anybody else here as *low priority*
I think I`m gonna sign myself off as an oPg (older peon grad) though a grad from the *early* days as you refer to them, I never climbed higher than a tc up twi`s food chain.
Rascalrescued oPg extraodinaire:-)
[This message was edited by rascal on June 13, 2003 at 11:47.]
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Mike
mj412,
Please lighten up.
I was trying to be nice to you, and to let you know that my harsh words on GS were NOT directed at you.
My calling you "innocent" was a figure of speech to describe how I don't have ANY feelings toward you of you having blown it in 1985 and hurt thousands of people. My use of the word "innocent" was NOT a judicial pronouncement on my part. It was NOT condescension toward you in any way.
I didn?t tell you to shut up. What I did suggest is that you remind yourself that when I sound tough, it?s NOT because I?m want you to feel bad. When I sound tough here it?s because the group of people I AM trying to address are very tough themselves and the only way to get their attention is with a ?ball bat.? That?s a figure of speech again, not advocating violence.
Far from shutting up, I was asking you to LIGHTEN UP, and not take my posts as talking about you.
Far from shutting up, I was asking you to FIGURATIVELY help me deal with a lot of others who are ?tap tap tapping? and demanding answers of me, like you were a few posts ago. I thought if I showed you how I DID answer you post and it just slipped by you, then you?d feel grateful and help me with the line of posters. So, just the opposite of shutting you up, I was asking you to consider ?going to bat? (another baseball figure of speech) for me a little, kinda like the way Ginger Tea did last night. A few others have done it at times and no one threw them out of the game (baseball again).
When I brought up that Jr. High prank mind picture, it was to get a laugh. Come on, mj, let?s be friends.
Did you see how reading PFAL means reading the Bible?
Did you see how I DID answer your question about Jesus and holy spirit teaching?
Please look at my heart, and don?t think I?m up to evil.
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Mike
Steve,
...THAT'S PFAL!
The 5-senses mastery is the first step (AC Key #4). This gives us the 5-senses meaning that God intended.
THEN, after we do that, God has other things to reveal. I don't look to spirits (there's that sneaky "You're possessed!" line of yours again) for the spiritual understanding of PFAL, I ask THE Holy Spirit, my Daddy.
Steve, your modus operundi is out in the open. You will take in everything I say, and you will maneuver everything you write to either overtly or covertly (this latest was covert) say that I'm possessed or oppressed. Did you learn this from Craig Martindale? You are imitating him to the ?T? and it stinks. A lot of other people have smelt what you have dealt here, and you should be ashamed. You are the TWI-2 spirit that we all know we don?t want. You are what went wrong with the ministry. You are the many villains that ruined things on the field thousands of miles from root locations.
Let?s see how many more ploys you mount to avoid dealing with the data and concentrate on my ?spiritual problems.?
You didn?t answer my question about whether you read my other posts not addressed to you. When you started that idiotic thread to pry some admission from me months ago it looked to be the case that you were entirely unaware of the gist of what others were saying and about why I was keeping silent. You?re myopic and stuck in a tunnel vision where you cannot err in your reading but I can. Yet you avoid the mass of 5-senses details to the contrary.
You have no comment on your HUGE recent error in thinking I was turned off to the 5-senses approach?
You avoid the data and the details of what I post, EVEN TO YOU, and just chug along with your cheap imitation of Peter Falk?s ?Columbo.?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 13:36.]
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Mike
rascal,
I was never higher on the totem pole that a tc also.
I don?t have a heart to ignore you, but when you say things we already talked about and/or that are so off the wall, then, yes, I refrain from responding to the words you post. I read them, wish I had the time to go into ALL the details to set you straight, and then make a decision to move on or not. I have to do this dozens of times whenever I sit down and deal with a handful of posts. You are not alone in the filtering process time demands of me. I do read them.
I find your attitude toward Dr repugnant and sinful and off the Word.
There is only one thing manifesting itself from your heart in your posts and it?s not love to God or appreciation as to how master4fully He arraigned for us to hear the Word in the richness we did.
There is only one thing manifesting itself from your heart in your posts and it?s bitterness/revenge/hatred.
I suggest you consider dedicating your life to something positive, rather than defining yourself by what you hate.
Like my suggestion to Steve, try starting a thread ADVOCATING something positive like ?...whatsoever things are of good report, think on THESE things...?
If you try, you will quickly see that you HAVE no positive message to offer, not REALLY.
You are not building up anything, except a literary skill for tearing down.
Try building up something. It?s a much more useful skill.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 13:34.]
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karmicdebt
The only time Mike seems to show scripture is when he is trying to use it against someone to make their motivations evil or ungodly or unloving...Jesus taught us to confront abuses of the truth. We don't need to whitewash it with love and god bless yous and niceties. Jesus didn't. Neither will some of us.
It is not bitter to say the truth. Some of us are not bitter at all. We accept that we have learned from our mistakes and are helping others. We are just on the opposite side of reality than you, Mike. We are as convinced as you are convinced. How long will this battle rage on? As long as you keep waving the PFAL banner I guess...
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Mike
karmicdebt,
If you had been spiritually minded back then you?d have successfully fought against the abuses as they occurred. But you were no Nathan and neither was anyone else.
So now 20 years later you get real spiritual, doing all kinds of detective work to uncover what supposedly went on right under your noses. It?s obvious you didn?t have a lick of genuine spiritual insight then, and there?s nothing but a lot of moaning and groaning that?s happened since then, so I wouldn?t put any stock into your spiritual insight now. It?s all 5-senses, and under the supervision of that god who got control of the Natural Realm from Adam.
All your ?rooting out error and evil? is 20 years late, and the adversary has blinded the effort to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I?ve painstakingly shown here that the system of TVTs that developed in the late 70?s and early 80?s was extremely counterfeit and devilish. THAT?S where you should be rooting out things.
The books are pure.
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Oakspear
Rascal is not defining herself by what she hates, she is pointing it out and identifying it...two different things. She is a wife and a mother (of a large brood, btw) and therefore has plenty to occupy her life besides her opinion of Wierwille.
Rascal's attitude toward "Doctor" is only sinful, etc. if he was "The Man of God", which there is scant evidense for, and which she does not believe ( as I do not) . You, of course, are entitled to your opinion.
You can only be "thankful for how God has materfully arranged for us to hear the Word" via Wierwille and PFAL if you believe that God did in fact do the arranging. There is plenty of evidense to indicate that God did not have anything to do with it, but that Wierwille copied the works of others.
By saying this, I am not trying to change your mind, which is, as you have said, made up on the subject, just to put things in perspective regarding those of us who don't see things the way you do
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hey Steve:
What does OLG stand for?
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Oakspear
Oh, horse.... Mike.
Anyone who fought against the abuses was driven out, both under Wierwille and Martindale. The record is pretty clear (TWI1, TWI2, TWI3 thread for starters)
I'll grant that for many, the abuses are seen with 20/20 hindsight, and were missed as they were occurring, but many others spoke up and were thrown out on their ears...it was Wierwille's game all along.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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