Mike buddy, we have it all OVER you in *spiritual* understanding.... that is why your wrong presuposition is so abhorrant to us.
You know, God will work in our lives in whatever capacity we allow. He can and will work within the confines and restrictions that we set for him in whatever form our religion will permit him.
Sure he works for you in you understanding of pfal....thing is we have ALL seen that he can work so much better without the strictures of pfal pfal and only mastery of pfal provides...
We have moved on to bigger and better things spiritually, seen God work clearly even BETTER since dumping twi, we are enjoying our continued education......
Mike, it`s like you are stagnate, still in spiritual *kindergarten*, and resent the fact that the rest of your class has learned, graduated and moved on to higher grades... Sure we all have fond memories of our early years in kindergarten....but the heck wants to go back?
quote: I'm not so concerned about how people are thinking right now
You got that right. Maybe that's why people are not concerned about how you are thinking right now.
quote: I answer lots of your posts, when I can. Can't you see I'm swamped with other posters to respond to here besides you? Come on, give me a break
Sure, I'll cut you a break. Let me know when you want to answer my questions & objections. It's called communication. Till then, it's officially break time. I suspended disbelief for over 25 years, and my inaction allowed evil to move unchallenged.
Now, you want me to suspend critical thinking till you finish your shpeal?
quote: All your comments on the bad reception here of my invitation to come back to PFAL are based on the POSTERS here
How silly of us! To base conclusions on all the evidence at hand. How 5-senses! Not going to fool you Mike.
If my fading memory serves, Jesus was amazed that the people could read the signs of the weather, but couldn't tell spiritually what was going on (apparently Jesus didn't see the dichotomy).
He might be amazed that you might understand anything spiritual since you can't even utilize your 5-senses properly. Go inside out of the rain, Mike.
quote: And it?s not just the posters, it?s the ACTIVE ?mike thread? posters only. That?s a small subset
Ah, it's the silent majority.
quote: The phrase ?spiritual understanding? came up a lot in the ministry and I NEVER knew what it meant as opposed to 5-senses understanding. It?s fairly new to me what I DO know about it
And this is supposed to give us confidence that you can offer us something?
Actually, Mike, there are a lot of things that I'm thankful for from PFAL. But if you worked PFAL for 5 years, I have been thinking through what was true from the Word, what was the evil doctrines in PFAL & TWI that allowed such evil to prevail.
VP taught us that continued wrong practice has to develop into wrong doctrine.
And it did. That's what I would call The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW. You've certainly absorbed its character. It would be nice if you were open to honest discussion in the presence of the body of Christ as the Word directs you to submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God, so that you could hold fast to the good and hold the evil far off from you.
But the pride (hidden under false humility) you've inherited from your "father in the Word (I should stick a finger down my throat)" prevents you from that just as it did him.
Instead, you turn off your critical thinking processes and swallow the whole load. And you do so without shame, but with the vacant smile of the religious or political zealot. And ask us to do the same.
A little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump. It is the leaven, the doctrine of the Pharisees, that eventually leavened the whole lump of TWI and brought it down.
It is the leaven that is in PFAL. But, contrary to the direction of the Word, you won't listen. Willfully blind, you ask us to be blind also.
You may have to share that cigar with vickles, because you're pretty close.
Proper "spiritual understanding" of God's Word is hearing what the Holy Spirit, the Author, tells you it REALLY means, even if it contradicts what's we THOUGHT it actually meant.
Sometimes a clever writer wil chose to impregnate his work with double meanings, one surface meaning that is picked up by all readers, and the other hidden, known for sure only by the author until divulged.
Take a break, by all means! There are SO many details for me to respond to that I must pick and chose the ones I can answer the fastest, and/or the ones that I think are most crucial.
When I have a lot of time and energy (best case scenario) I still estimate that I only can get to half of the points in response that I WANT to get to.
With time, I'd like to think, every point will get coverage. It may be the case than you and none of the current active posters here have ever dealt with the constant barrage of post replies that are expected of me daily. I'm doing my best.
Take a break, by all means! There are SO many details for me to respond to that I must pick and chose the ones I can answer the fastest, and/or the ones that I think are most crucial
That's cool, Mike. Please excuse the uncruciality of the details of my concerns. I thought that my more than abundant life was in the details. But, I understand. I AM allowed to understand things, right? Just not as well as the first century believers - and you.
You're busy. My more than abundant life can wait. I've gone 54 years without a knowledge of the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century. I can certainly go on for...oh, there's another good question - how long. Maybe you'll get to it sometime.
I'm just glad I'm not among the 50 % of the people who never get their questions answered by you.
quote: When I have a lot of time and energy (best case scenario) I still estimate that I only can get to half of the points in response that I WANT to get to
Or am I? Now that's a scary thought. What would I do then? It reminds me of Craig's teachings where he said that it was inevitable that some people would fall through the cracks in the body of Christ.
Think of that. Isn't that just one cold freakin' shot? Man, Jesus would roll over in his grave to hear that - if he were still there.
What if the response to your posting was like the day of Pentecost? Man, wouldn't that be a ...
Listen, Mike. I really do understand. You've got a lot of responsibility, & only so much time. It's a conundrum.
I really do understand. You've set for yourself and impossible task.
Moses had a similar problem. And so did Dr. Wierwille. Now seems like a good time for Jethro to show & suggest that you set the people in order - you remember - leaders of 10s, & leaders of 100s, & leaders of 1,000s.
But I have a problems with that. For one thing, this is not the old testament. Moses' word (read VP's word (read Mike's, aka PFAL,s word)) is not law. That revelation (the Way Tree) worked for VP and kept his word as law only long enough to bring TWI down.
But, we don't have to worry about that. You don't have millions. You don't have leaders of 10's. Heck, you don't have 10.
You estimate you can't get to half the people now, but hope you can get to all of them later. And you want US to do the math?
This is tough, Mike. Man, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Okay, look. Maybe Jesus Christ can function in the body in a bigger way than you realize. Maybe we are competely complete in HIM.
That would be, you know, that would work, but where would that leave PFAL.
Okay, look. I know this is really very far out, but you said that you have spoken to Jesus Christ. That's cool. I'm not arguing with you. Maybe you could get him to take PFAL. Then he could be the head of the body, really, & it would all work. Well, we'd have to get rid of things like the Way Tree & the MOG concept (Jesus Christ being the MOG & all).
Hey, what do I know? I'm just playing around - really great benefit of being on break. You're...
Right, you're working the ministry (I almost said you were the MOG - feels really cold in here without a MOG - almost like you're naked)
Surely SOMEONE has to bridge the gap!
Okay, somebody got a smoke? Anybody want to pitch quarters?
Mike - You wrote, "Steve, I come to this thread to post some information I think will help people. I have a positive message of 'Master PFAL and see good results.' You come here with your message of 'Don't listen to PFAL' and your message is a negative one of "Don't do this.'"
I have no doubt whatsoever of your sincerity, Mike, or of the truth that you are determined to post here because your intention is to do good. However, the alien spirits that handle you and your friends who have "gone back to PFAL" are liars through and through, whose only intentions are to steal, kill and destroy through deception.
*****
I John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already it is in the world."
*****
How are we to try the spirits? We do it by comparing the meanings of their words with the meanings of the words God had written.
In John's day, many alien spirits were promoting the gnostic idea that Jesus Christ couldn't have come in the flesh, because the "spiritual realm" is true, and the "natural" realm is evil. Jesus Christ only *appeared* to be flesh, because he wouldn't have actually associated himself with anything so base as a material body.
Yet the meanings of these spirit's words contradicted the meaning of John 1:14a, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."
"Beloved, believe not every spirit..." Don't trust every spirit... Is *this* a negative message, Mike? Does it bring harm to those who heed it?
There are antichristian spirits all over the place, Mike. Not antichristian in the sense of "The Omen" et al., or even in the sense of spirits saying "That Christ, you don't want to have anything to do with him!" They are antichristian in the sense that they say, "*You* ARE Christ, and *you* can manifest the POWER if you will only believe us, and obey us without question."
How can I say this? In 1968 or so, I set out to explore the astral plane. I figured if I could hack into the akashic record, I could gain some kind of control over my life. There were plenty of alien spirits offering their services to me as guides. Nearly all of them told me I was the soul of Jesus Christ reincarnated, all I had to do was to heed them, and they would show me what to do, and how to do it. I have been told that I am Christ more times than I have been told I am an ancient soul from Atlantis!
There came a time in 1973 when my life was spiralling out of control. I wasn't religious, and was in an environment hostile to discussion of the things of God. But I was going crazy, and as a last resort, without any expectation of results, I called out, "God help me..." As I did so, I remembered from what little religious instruction I *had* received, that Jesus Christ said he would do whatever we asked, if we asked in his name.
So I finished up, "...in the name of Jesus Christ." Immediately I recovered my physical composure, and the Lord started teaching me how to change the things that were in my heart.
In the two weeks following that incident, the alien spirits who had formerly been my guides tried to kill me on several occasions. It was only God's mercy and grace, through Jesus Christ, that preserved me alive.
I had to change the things that were in my heart by changing the things I habitually thought. I had to break the thinking habits the alien spirits had nurtured in my mind.
When a person starts playing around with doctrines of demons, entertaining their thoughts on a regular basis, it's as if that person has lit the fuse on a keg of gunpowder in his mind. "Try it, you'll like it." That sparkly fuse sure is pretty... until it reaches the keg.
There is a part of me that would love to believe what you're saying, Mike, and to jump on the bandwagon with you. How great it would be to learn secret things, to manifest great power, and to participate in bringing about the turn of the age!?! It would be better than "The Lord of the Rings"! ...or "Harry Potter"!
BUT... there is a more experienced part of me, a wiser part, that recognizes the same tactics and techniques that almost brought me to ruin so many years ago.
Yesterday, my two-year old grand-nephew started to run out into the street. I shouted, "Patrick, don't run out into the street!"
Was that a negative message, Mike?
I am really beginning to like *you*, Mike. I just don't care for the spiritual company you are presently keeping. Not only do the meanings of the words they feed you contradict what God had written in His Word, they also contradict the meanings of the words Wierwille actually wrote in PFAL.
Love,
Steve
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 11, 2003 at 14:54.
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 11, 2003 at 14:57.]
It's my contention that "the meanings of the words ...written in His Word" have eluded our exact awareness, due to the fact that "the meanings of the words Wierwille actually wrote in PFAL" have not been carefully mastered.
We just don't KNOW exactly what Dr wrote becaused so much slipped past us, so much has leaked out, and so much other stuff has been allowed in.
The prupose of this thread is to raise the level of awareness to Dr's specialized vocabulary SO THAT we can finally see what God taught him by various sense knowledge methods and spiritual revelation, and that he taught us in written form.
I may be wrong here but I thought the point of a web site such as Gs was to learn how to let pfal "leak out", to be able to get "past it' and to allow other "stuff" like real life in.
could be wrong tho.
where am I ??
The point of grease spot cafe is to prove what Martindal predicted about those who left the way is wrong.
GS is a support group on the net for those who have left or were thrown out Mike .
Do you think your the gs moses now rounding us up in the wilderness of the net taking us into the new promised land?
mike did you mean intention or contention? Is your explaining of these writings your intention or is it to cause contention?
Can you explain what vpw's specialized vocabulary is? I find it a rather odd way of saying things. I have not found his writings to be specialized in any way shape or form. I find his writings to be very normal. In fact they are writings of others. So how special is that?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Mike - You wrote, "We just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote because so much slipped past us, so much has leaked out, and so much other stuff has been allowed in."
Did you really do any thinking before your wrote that? Do you really *not* understand what a foolish statement it is, even in your own terms?
I thought you said God had Wierwille write PFAL so the gospel could be stated in modern language, bypassing the need for translators and interpreters. I thought you said we could trust PFAL because the errors have all been cleaned up except for a few minor typos. Now you say "...we just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote..."
What good is it for me, then, to read Wierwille's books? Aren't they "exactly what Wierwille wrote"?
When I pick up my copy of one of Wierwille's books and read a chapter, have some of the pages somehow slipped out? I don't think so. The pages are still numbered in sequence. I wore out my old Bible to the point where pages fell out, and I had to get a new one, so I know what it looks like when pages slip out. No pages have slipped out of my PFAL books.
"...so much has leaked out..." What do you mean by that? How could anything "leak out" of my copies of the PFAL books. When I dust the shelves, I don't find little piles of letters laying around.
"...and so much other stuff has been allowed in..." I will grant you that I've pencilled some notes onto the margins and blank pages in my PFAL books, but I haven't scratched anything out. I can still see exactly what Wierwille wrote.
How can the statement "we just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote" be anything other than a lie? The PFAL books ARE exactly what Wierwille wrote!?!
The alien spirits have manipulated people into believing "we just don't KNOW what Wierwille wrote" by suggesting that words don't really mean what they mean, and grammar doesn't really work the way grammar really works.
Show me what parts of my PFAL books have slipped out, show me what parts of my PFAL books have leaked, show me how other stuff has been allowed to intrude into the printed text.
Mike(the Great PFAL Communicator): Now, Steve, there you go again... if you would refer back to secret decoder ring manual 1-Ab.23.c, you could have answered your own question and become a REAL grown-up OLG-type fella....excuse me, what was the question again???.......
Im ....ed . ( I think I will have to go the emotional thread and post now!)
All I got was HOLY Spirit power from on high. that the Saviour Jesus Christ will teach me all things.
Why MIke is it what Jesus Christ says is not good enough for you anymore?? What He has promised us as solutions to lifes many complex somhow now has to be put to waste and twisted because vpw wrote a orange book.
Mike do you think pfal is more important than the holy bible and what Jesus said as truth for our life?
geez Mike maybe you were in a cult like situation and something bad happen to your ability to sort truth from reality , maybe the fact you never succeeded in that said cult twisted your mind and now your obseessed with taking the news to a new hieght where even the leader of that group can not hurt you anymore , because you will do more than he ever could for God.
I know you were writing about things leaking from the mind, and "other stuff" like knowledge of Gods words written to us being bad for us.
Mike , few will go with you on this one it is just to cult like thinking man Mike so you dedicated to helping others see some thing that is not real. Mike
I do not want a secret that only your chosen few will understand , the secret is in the stars, it has been revealed , it is that now we can believe Jesus Christ died and was saved from the
dead so we can live eternaly with Him and the father as His children.
the power trip your on is alot like the one satan must have took with God in heaven , somehow you can be like God . Mike nothing good will happen to you with this type of thinking and if we go with the scrpitures or even what vpw said well you could burn yourself real bad with this type of stuff!
My relationship with Jesus Christ is doing fine, thank you. What?s not good enough for me is what OTHER people say about him. I only want to know what GOD says about him, and I base my relationship on that.
When I brought up our relationship (5-senses vs. spiritual) with Jesus Christ it was ignored. It seemed that most people wanted to talk more about me or Dr or sex or plagiarism or ANYTHING other than a relationship with Jesus Christ.
So is that what you want to talk about now? Or is it ?me? or some other less inspiring topic that is on your mind.
BTW, the "secret" decoder ring is in the Advanced Class
By READING the set of PFAL books (as opposed to remembering them, or hearing someone else remember them) for a masterful 5-senses understanding, you then put yourself in the position for God to reveal more.
Here?s the secret decoder from the AC?s ?16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit?
It?s key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by your 5-senses God expects you to know.
Yes. SOMEONE has to supply us with physical mnaterials with God's Word written on it to get started.
We all have to make decisions as to WHO is going to be our Word supplier. I have come to reject the traditional suppliers as I have learned more and more about their limitations.
Likewise, as I have learned more and more of the quality of the Word supplied by the team of God and Dr, I feel that my BEST supply of God's Word is form this source.
There were years and years that I applied key #4 above to my KJV.
Actually, it was a little more than my kjv. It was a combo of my KJV plus my wide margin notes plus a lot of Word I had in my head, plus some scattered material of other authors plus my interlinear and Youngs. It?s this combo that slowly became a broken cistern as PFAL drifted from my central focus in the 80?s and 90?s.
This combo I had is similar to the combo most grads use as their ?Word? in some ways, the ways it was generated. HOWEVER, every grad has a slightly (sometimes no so slight) different set of beliefs in their combo Word. Like mindedness is IMPOSSIBLE under these circumstances.
I saw this difficulty in like mindedness long before I came back to PFAL and found the solution in 1998. Like mindedness is CRUCIAL for the power to be fully manifested. Remember that 7 of the 9 manifestations are for OTHER people.
When I looked at this problem years ago I started to believe that like-mindedness was no longer available. In the first century
like-mindedness or "speaking the same thing" was stated as a command from God, but it WAS possible then for everyone to have the same reading base in their beliefs.
It seems that in these modern times every grad had a slightly different combo Word they were working from. As I pondered this huge problem, I thought for a few years that this would straighten out and we?d all eventually come to greater and greater unity. But just the opposite happened! Everyone?s combo Word got farther and farther apart.
Here?s what Dr said about this in the Advanced Class, segment 6:
"Such as I have, I give" such as you have, you give. You can't give, class, beyond what you've got. First Corinthians, one, ten - such an important verse of scripture, maybe so many of them are - I should all - have all of them put on charts but only put on, I guess, what I feel in my heart I'd like to have. First Corinthians, one, ten: "Now I beseech . . ." The word "beseech" means to implore - lovingly beg you. We have it here on this chart.
". . . [implore - lovingly beg] you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, [Number one:] that ye all speak [and the word "speak" is lalao - it literally means "running off of the mouth" - so that we should all have the running off of the mouth - talking about] the same [what?] (thing), [Number two:] . . . that there be no [what?] divisions among you; [And number three:] but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind [nous] and in the same [what?] (judgment)."
And class, that can only be when we all speak the same thing on God's Word. No one will ever qualify for first Corinthians one, ten, unless they get their heads and their hearts into the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God's Word. How will we ever speak the same thing unless we study the same thing, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself. If you and I do not rightly divide the Word of God, there's gonna be division among us.
When Dr says something like ?the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God's Word? rest assured he is NOT talking about the KJV, NIV or any other version for our common reading. There was one set of common books we all had, PFAL, that he was talking about us reading for like-mindedness. Our KJVs are all different, combo wise.
In the previous AC segment Dr said this about reading and studying PFAL materials:
?I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.?
(1979 Advanced Class segment #5)
[This message was edited by Mike on June 12, 2003 at 12:58.]
BTW, the "secret" decoder ring is in the Advanced Class
By READING the set of PFAL books (as opposed to remembering them, or hearing someone else remember them) for a masterful 5-senses understanding, you then put yourself in the position for God to reveal more.
Here?s the secret decoder adapted from the AC?s ?16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit?
It?s key #4 - Study the PFAL much. What you can know by your 5-senses God expects you to know.
what about the fact Jesus Christ states the comforter, the holy spirit will teach us ALL things MIke?
do you think He was just referring to those people at that time hearing His vioce?
If not then how is it we even need a teacher when He says we need no other teacher?
Reference the bible not pfal.
when you talk you speak down at people, like you have arrived somwhere they can only try to achieve with your help, like your the ones with the answer and we need you to find the true meaning of God.
what a freaking lie, YOU make this topic about YOU MIKE.
Mike - You wrote, I'm still reading and pondering your posts, and when time permits I will respond..."
Thank you, Mike. You *do* have a powerful mind, and I'm heartened to know you are turning it toward consideration of some of the things we've set before you. Meanwhile, here's some related information to ponder.
You wrote, "We just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote because so much slipped past us, so much has leaked out, and so much other stuff has been allowed in."
When I first read that, I was taken aback. Here I sit, with a copy of the Blue Book beside the computer, and you're telling me we can't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote. All I have to do is open my copy of the Blue Book and I can SEE exactly what Wierwille wrote!
Then it struck me, you have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to you through a spirit... ANY vagrant spirit... that you no longer trust your sense perceptions, or your ability to understand them.
God hasn't given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Let's use our sound minds to think a few things through.
God designed the kosmos. God designed man. God designed man to experience the kosmos, and operate within it, by means of his senses. God designed man to have access to observable data, through his senses, and to organize that sensible data through his reason. Why did God do these things? What was His purpose?
An observable datum is a "fact". Facts are not contrary or inferior to "truth". In judicial and scientific investigations, which are merely formalized expressions of the reasoning process, people use sensible "facts" to ESTABLISH "truths".
God designed man with 5-senses and reason so that man could use sensible data... *facts*... to ESTABLISH the *truth* of God's good, and acceptable, and perfect will!
Wierwille wrote, "Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true." This is exactly what Wierwille wrote, as recorded near the bottom of page 23 in "The Bible Tells Me So". None of this sentence has slipped past us, none of this sentence has leaked out, no other stuff has been allowed into this sentence. Yet it is wrong.
We know from the sensible data of God's written Word that spirits can lie, deceive and seduce. Not everything that comes from the "spirit world" is true.
Which brings us back to the question I asked in my post of April 24, 2003, 11:17, about half-way down page 12 of this thread, "How can a person distinguish between information that is coming from the holy spirit and information that is coming from demonic sources? Or in other words, how can a person detect counterfeit manifestations of the spirit?"
You replied a few hours later, "This question plagued me for DECADES!... This question of yours is at the heart of why things went so wrong... Solving this detection problem would sure be a boon, wouldn't it!"
You went on to write, "Jesus Christ received revelation from the devil in the desert... Because he had mastered God's written Word he recognized that these revelations were from the wrong source and rejected them."
When Jesus Christ was in the desert, he was able to recognize and reject the source of his temptations because he used his human reason to compare the sensible facts of his situation with facts he had learned by reading God's sensible Word. Jesus used his 5-senses and his reason to ESTABLISH the truth, and thereby distinguish the false.
False spirits don't want us to be able to distinguish the true from the false, because then, we would recognize them for what they are, false spirits. So they do everything they can to undermine our confidence in our God-given 5-senses and our God-given ability to reason.
Mike, you didn't get into this five years ago to get tied up in irrational knots. You got into this so you could have something to be sure of. It's difficult to be certain of something that was written 2000 years ago in a foreign language to a foreign culture. We have to rely SO heavily on translators and interpreters. We ought to be able to KNOW something that was written in our own language, and our own culture, less than a lifetime ago!
How did it get to this place, Mike, where you can't even KNOW what's plainly written in front of your face, without alien spirits to translate and interpret for you?
Love from your fellow OLG,
Steve
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 12, 2003 at 15:00.
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 12, 2003 at 15:03.]
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
rascal
Mike buddy, we have it all OVER you in *spiritual* understanding.... that is why your wrong presuposition is so abhorrant to us.
You know, God will work in our lives in whatever capacity we allow. He can and will work within the confines and restrictions that we set for him in whatever form our religion will permit him.
Sure he works for you in you understanding of pfal....thing is we have ALL seen that he can work so much better without the strictures of pfal pfal and only mastery of pfal provides...
We have moved on to bigger and better things spiritually, seen God work clearly even BETTER since dumping twi, we are enjoying our continued education......
Mike, it`s like you are stagnate, still in spiritual *kindergarten*, and resent the fact that the rest of your class has learned, graduated and moved on to higher grades... Sure we all have fond memories of our early years in kindergarten....but the heck wants to go back?
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Tom
You got that right. Maybe that's why people are not concerned about how you are thinking right now.
Sure, I'll cut you a break. Let me know when you want to answer my questions & objections. It's called communication. Till then, it's officially break time. I suspended disbelief for over 25 years, and my inaction allowed evil to move unchallenged.
Now, you want me to suspend critical thinking till you finish your shpeal?
How silly of us! To base conclusions on all the evidence at hand. How 5-senses! Not going to fool you Mike.
If my fading memory serves, Jesus was amazed that the people could read the signs of the weather, but couldn't tell spiritually what was going on (apparently Jesus didn't see the dichotomy).
He might be amazed that you might understand anything spiritual since you can't even utilize your 5-senses properly. Go inside out of the rain, Mike.
Ah, it's the silent majority.
And this is supposed to give us confidence that you can offer us something?
Actually, Mike, there are a lot of things that I'm thankful for from PFAL. But if you worked PFAL for 5 years, I have been thinking through what was true from the Word, what was the evil doctrines in PFAL & TWI that allowed such evil to prevail.
VP taught us that continued wrong practice has to develop into wrong doctrine.
And it did. That's what I would call The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW. You've certainly absorbed its character. It would be nice if you were open to honest discussion in the presence of the body of Christ as the Word directs you to submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God, so that you could hold fast to the good and hold the evil far off from you.
But the pride (hidden under false humility) you've inherited from your "father in the Word (I should stick a finger down my throat)" prevents you from that just as it did him.
Instead, you turn off your critical thinking processes and swallow the whole load. And you do so without shame, but with the vacant smile of the religious or political zealot. And ask us to do the same.
A little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump. It is the leaven, the doctrine of the Pharisees, that eventually leavened the whole lump of TWI and brought it down.
It is the leaven that is in PFAL. But, contrary to the direction of the Word, you won't listen. Willfully blind, you ask us to be blind also.
Ditch diggers anonymous
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Mike
Steve,
You may have to share that cigar with vickles, because you're pretty close.
Proper "spiritual understanding" of God's Word is hearing what the Holy Spirit, the Author, tells you it REALLY means, even if it contradicts what's we THOUGHT it actually meant.
Sometimes a clever writer wil chose to impregnate his work with double meanings, one surface meaning that is picked up by all readers, and the other hidden, known for sure only by the author until divulged.
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Mike
Thomas,
Take a break, by all means! There are SO many details for me to respond to that I must pick and chose the ones I can answer the fastest, and/or the ones that I think are most crucial.
When I have a lot of time and energy (best case scenario) I still estimate that I only can get to half of the points in response that I WANT to get to.
With time, I'd like to think, every point will get coverage. It may be the case than you and none of the current active posters here have ever dealt with the constant barrage of post replies that are expected of me daily. I'm doing my best.
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mj412
the author is dead been dead will stay dead.
not up to divulging at this point either what with being very dead .
what an ugly word divulging is that a word? well Im saying He Never said any hidden meaning was in his books Mike .
How can you have such a fantasy ? only because he is dead and cant tell you your wrong.
well vpw must have really ....ed you off that is all I can say.
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Tom
That's cool, Mike. Please excuse the uncruciality of the details of my concerns. I thought that my more than abundant life was in the details. But, I understand. I AM allowed to understand things, right? Just not as well as the first century believers - and you.
You're busy. My more than abundant life can wait. I've gone 54 years without a knowledge of the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century. I can certainly go on for...oh, there's another good question - how long. Maybe you'll get to it sometime.
I'm just glad I'm not among the 50 % of the people who never get their questions answered by you.
Or am I? Now that's a scary thought. What would I do then? It reminds me of Craig's teachings where he said that it was inevitable that some people would fall through the cracks in the body of Christ.
Think of that. Isn't that just one cold freakin' shot? Man, Jesus would roll over in his grave to hear that - if he were still there.
What if the response to your posting was like the day of Pentecost? Man, wouldn't that be a ...
Listen, Mike. I really do understand. You've got a lot of responsibility, & only so much time. It's a conundrum.
I really do understand. You've set for yourself and impossible task.
Moses had a similar problem. And so did Dr. Wierwille. Now seems like a good time for Jethro to show & suggest that you set the people in order - you remember - leaders of 10s, & leaders of 100s, & leaders of 1,000s.
But I have a problems with that. For one thing, this is not the old testament. Moses' word (read VP's word (read Mike's, aka PFAL,s word)) is not law. That revelation (the Way Tree) worked for VP and kept his word as law only long enough to bring TWI down.
But, we don't have to worry about that. You don't have millions. You don't have leaders of 10's. Heck, you don't have 10.
You estimate you can't get to half the people now, but hope you can get to all of them later. And you want US to do the math?
This is tough, Mike. Man, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Okay, look. Maybe Jesus Christ can function in the body in a bigger way than you realize. Maybe we are competely complete in HIM.
That would be, you know, that would work, but where would that leave PFAL.
Okay, look. I know this is really very far out, but you said that you have spoken to Jesus Christ. That's cool. I'm not arguing with you. Maybe you could get him to take PFAL. Then he could be the head of the body, really, & it would all work. Well, we'd have to get rid of things like the Way Tree & the MOG concept (Jesus Christ being the MOG & all).
Hey, what do I know? I'm just playing around - really great benefit of being on break. You're...
Right, you're working the ministry (I almost said you were the MOG - feels really cold in here without a MOG - almost like you're naked)
Surely SOMEONE has to bridge the gap!
Okay, somebody got a smoke? Anybody want to pitch quarters?
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Steve Lortz
Mike - You wrote, "Steve, I come to this thread to post some information I think will help people. I have a positive message of 'Master PFAL and see good results.' You come here with your message of 'Don't listen to PFAL' and your message is a negative one of "Don't do this.'"
I have no doubt whatsoever of your sincerity, Mike, or of the truth that you are determined to post here because your intention is to do good. However, the alien spirits that handle you and your friends who have "gone back to PFAL" are liars through and through, whose only intentions are to steal, kill and destroy through deception.
*****
I John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already it is in the world."
*****
How are we to try the spirits? We do it by comparing the meanings of their words with the meanings of the words God had written.
In John's day, many alien spirits were promoting the gnostic idea that Jesus Christ couldn't have come in the flesh, because the "spiritual realm" is true, and the "natural" realm is evil. Jesus Christ only *appeared* to be flesh, because he wouldn't have actually associated himself with anything so base as a material body.
Yet the meanings of these spirit's words contradicted the meaning of John 1:14a, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."
"Beloved, believe not every spirit..." Don't trust every spirit... Is *this* a negative message, Mike? Does it bring harm to those who heed it?
There are antichristian spirits all over the place, Mike. Not antichristian in the sense of "The Omen" et al., or even in the sense of spirits saying "That Christ, you don't want to have anything to do with him!" They are antichristian in the sense that they say, "*You* ARE Christ, and *you* can manifest the POWER if you will only believe us, and obey us without question."
How can I say this? In 1968 or so, I set out to explore the astral plane. I figured if I could hack into the akashic record, I could gain some kind of control over my life. There were plenty of alien spirits offering their services to me as guides. Nearly all of them told me I was the soul of Jesus Christ reincarnated, all I had to do was to heed them, and they would show me what to do, and how to do it. I have been told that I am Christ more times than I have been told I am an ancient soul from Atlantis!
There came a time in 1973 when my life was spiralling out of control. I wasn't religious, and was in an environment hostile to discussion of the things of God. But I was going crazy, and as a last resort, without any expectation of results, I called out, "God help me..." As I did so, I remembered from what little religious instruction I *had* received, that Jesus Christ said he would do whatever we asked, if we asked in his name.
So I finished up, "...in the name of Jesus Christ." Immediately I recovered my physical composure, and the Lord started teaching me how to change the things that were in my heart.
In the two weeks following that incident, the alien spirits who had formerly been my guides tried to kill me on several occasions. It was only God's mercy and grace, through Jesus Christ, that preserved me alive.
I had to change the things that were in my heart by changing the things I habitually thought. I had to break the thinking habits the alien spirits had nurtured in my mind.
When a person starts playing around with doctrines of demons, entertaining their thoughts on a regular basis, it's as if that person has lit the fuse on a keg of gunpowder in his mind. "Try it, you'll like it." That sparkly fuse sure is pretty... until it reaches the keg.
There is a part of me that would love to believe what you're saying, Mike, and to jump on the bandwagon with you. How great it would be to learn secret things, to manifest great power, and to participate in bringing about the turn of the age!?! It would be better than "The Lord of the Rings"! ...or "Harry Potter"!
BUT... there is a more experienced part of me, a wiser part, that recognizes the same tactics and techniques that almost brought me to ruin so many years ago.
Yesterday, my two-year old grand-nephew started to run out into the street. I shouted, "Patrick, don't run out into the street!"
Was that a negative message, Mike?
I am really beginning to like *you*, Mike. I just don't care for the spiritual company you are presently keeping. Not only do the meanings of the words they feed you contradict what God had written in His Word, they also contradict the meanings of the words Wierwille actually wrote in PFAL.
Love,
Steve
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 11, 2003 at 14:54.
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 11, 2003 at 14:57.]
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Mike
Steve,
It's my contention that "the meanings of the words ...written in His Word" have eluded our exact awareness, due to the fact that "the meanings of the words Wierwille actually wrote in PFAL" have not been carefully mastered.
We just don't KNOW exactly what Dr wrote becaused so much slipped past us, so much has leaked out, and so much other stuff has been allowed in.
The prupose of this thread is to raise the level of awareness to Dr's specialized vocabulary SO THAT we can finally see what God taught him by various sense knowledge methods and spiritual revelation, and that he taught us in written form.
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mj412
I may be wrong here but I thought the point of a web site such as Gs was to learn how to let pfal "leak out", to be able to get "past it' and to allow other "stuff" like real life in.
could be wrong tho.
where am I ??
The point of grease spot cafe is to prove what Martindal predicted about those who left the way is wrong.
GS is a support group on the net for those who have left or were thrown out Mike .
Do you think your the gs moses now rounding us up in the wilderness of the net taking us into the new promised land?
omg hahahahahaha geez louise
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excathedra
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vickles
I was leaking? I thought I was past that stage.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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vickles
mike did you mean intention or contention? Is your explaining of these writings your intention or is it to cause contention?
Can you explain what vpw's specialized vocabulary is? I find it a rather odd way of saying things. I have not found his writings to be specialized in any way shape or form. I find his writings to be very normal. In fact they are writings of others. So how special is that?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Steve Lortz
Mike - You wrote, "We just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote because so much slipped past us, so much has leaked out, and so much other stuff has been allowed in."
Did you really do any thinking before your wrote that? Do you really *not* understand what a foolish statement it is, even in your own terms?
I thought you said God had Wierwille write PFAL so the gospel could be stated in modern language, bypassing the need for translators and interpreters. I thought you said we could trust PFAL because the errors have all been cleaned up except for a few minor typos. Now you say "...we just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote..."
What good is it for me, then, to read Wierwille's books? Aren't they "exactly what Wierwille wrote"?
When I pick up my copy of one of Wierwille's books and read a chapter, have some of the pages somehow slipped out? I don't think so. The pages are still numbered in sequence. I wore out my old Bible to the point where pages fell out, and I had to get a new one, so I know what it looks like when pages slip out. No pages have slipped out of my PFAL books.
"...so much has leaked out..." What do you mean by that? How could anything "leak out" of my copies of the PFAL books. When I dust the shelves, I don't find little piles of letters laying around.
"...and so much other stuff has been allowed in..." I will grant you that I've pencilled some notes onto the margins and blank pages in my PFAL books, but I haven't scratched anything out. I can still see exactly what Wierwille wrote.
How can the statement "we just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote" be anything other than a lie? The PFAL books ARE exactly what Wierwille wrote!?!
The alien spirits have manipulated people into believing "we just don't KNOW what Wierwille wrote" by suggesting that words don't really mean what they mean, and grammar doesn't really work the way grammar really works.
Show me what parts of my PFAL books have slipped out, show me what parts of my PFAL books have leaked, show me how other stuff has been allowed to intrude into the printed text.
Love,
Steve
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alfakat
Mike(the Great PFAL Communicator): Now, Steve, there you go again... if you would refer back to secret decoder ring manual 1-Ab.23.c, you could have answered your own question and become a REAL grown-up OLG-type fella....excuse me, what was the question again???.......
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mj412
YOU GOT A DECODER RING???????!!!!
Im ....ed . ( I think I will have to go the emotional thread and post now!)
All I got was HOLY Spirit power from on high. that the Saviour Jesus Christ will teach me all things.
Why MIke is it what Jesus Christ says is not good enough for you anymore?? What He has promised us as solutions to lifes many complex somhow now has to be put to waste and twisted because vpw wrote a orange book.
Mike do you think pfal is more important than the holy bible and what Jesus said as truth for our life?
geez Mike maybe you were in a cult like situation and something bad happen to your ability to sort truth from reality , maybe the fact you never succeeded in that said cult twisted your mind and now your obseessed with taking the news to a new hieght where even the leader of that group can not hurt you anymore , because you will do more than he ever could for God.
I know you were writing about things leaking from the mind, and "other stuff" like knowledge of Gods words written to us being bad for us.
Mike , few will go with you on this one it is just to cult like thinking man Mike so you dedicated to helping others see some thing that is not real. Mike
I do not want a secret that only your chosen few will understand , the secret is in the stars, it has been revealed , it is that now we can believe Jesus Christ died and was saved from the
dead so we can live eternaly with Him and the father as His children.
the power trip your on is alot like the one satan must have took with God in heaven , somehow you can be like God . Mike nothing good will happen to you with this type of thinking and if we go with the scrpitures or even what vpw said well you could burn yourself real bad with this type of stuff!
does anyone have a leaflet?
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Mike
mj412,
My relationship with Jesus Christ is doing fine, thank you. What?s not good enough for me is what OTHER people say about him. I only want to know what GOD says about him, and I base my relationship on that.
When I brought up our relationship (5-senses vs. spiritual) with Jesus Christ it was ignored. It seemed that most people wanted to talk more about me or Dr or sex or plagiarism or ANYTHING other than a relationship with Jesus Christ.
So is that what you want to talk about now? Or is it ?me? or some other less inspiring topic that is on your mind.
Mj, how do you get it so right with JC?
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Mike
Steve and Thomas and Todd,
I'm still reading and pondering your posts, and when time permits I will respond. Thank you for you contribution to this forum.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 12, 2003 at 12:23.]
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Mike
BTW, the "secret" decoder ring is in the Advanced Class
By READING the set of PFAL books (as opposed to remembering them, or hearing someone else remember them) for a masterful 5-senses understanding, you then put yourself in the position for God to reveal more.
Here?s the secret decoder from the AC?s ?16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit?
It?s key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by your 5-senses God expects you to know.
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Oakspear
By "The Word", you apparently mean Wierwille's writings.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mike
Oakspear,
Yes. SOMEONE has to supply us with physical mnaterials with God's Word written on it to get started.
We all have to make decisions as to WHO is going to be our Word supplier. I have come to reject the traditional suppliers as I have learned more and more about their limitations.
Likewise, as I have learned more and more of the quality of the Word supplied by the team of God and Dr, I feel that my BEST supply of God's Word is form this source.
There were years and years that I applied key #4 above to my KJV.
Actually, it was a little more than my kjv. It was a combo of my KJV plus my wide margin notes plus a lot of Word I had in my head, plus some scattered material of other authors plus my interlinear and Youngs. It?s this combo that slowly became a broken cistern as PFAL drifted from my central focus in the 80?s and 90?s.
This combo I had is similar to the combo most grads use as their ?Word? in some ways, the ways it was generated. HOWEVER, every grad has a slightly (sometimes no so slight) different set of beliefs in their combo Word. Like mindedness is IMPOSSIBLE under these circumstances.
I saw this difficulty in like mindedness long before I came back to PFAL and found the solution in 1998. Like mindedness is CRUCIAL for the power to be fully manifested. Remember that 7 of the 9 manifestations are for OTHER people.
When I looked at this problem years ago I started to believe that like-mindedness was no longer available. In the first century
like-mindedness or "speaking the same thing" was stated as a command from God, but it WAS possible then for everyone to have the same reading base in their beliefs.
It seems that in these modern times every grad had a slightly different combo Word they were working from. As I pondered this huge problem, I thought for a few years that this would straighten out and we?d all eventually come to greater and greater unity. But just the opposite happened! Everyone?s combo Word got farther and farther apart.
****************************************************
Here?s what Dr said about this in the Advanced Class, segment 6:
"Such as I have, I give" such as you have, you give. You can't give, class, beyond what you've got. First Corinthians, one, ten - such an important verse of scripture, maybe so many of them are - I should all - have all of them put on charts but only put on, I guess, what I feel in my heart I'd like to have. First Corinthians, one, ten: "Now I beseech . . ." The word "beseech" means to implore - lovingly beg you. We have it here on this chart.
". . . [implore - lovingly beg] you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, [Number one:] that ye all speak [and the word "speak" is lalao - it literally means "running off of the mouth" - so that we should all have the running off of the mouth - talking about] the same [what?] (thing), [Number two:] . . . that there be no [what?] divisions among you; [And number three:] but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind [nous] and in the same [what?] (judgment)."
And class, that can only be when we all speak the same thing on God's Word. No one will ever qualify for first Corinthians one, ten, unless they get their heads and their hearts into the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God's Word. How will we ever speak the same thing unless we study the same thing, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself. If you and I do not rightly divide the Word of God, there's gonna be division among us.
****************************************************
When Dr says something like ?the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God's Word? rest assured he is NOT talking about the KJV, NIV or any other version for our common reading. There was one set of common books we all had, PFAL, that he was talking about us reading for like-mindedness. Our KJVs are all different, combo wise.
In the previous AC segment Dr said this about reading and studying PFAL materials:
?I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.?
(1979 Advanced Class segment #5)
[This message was edited by Mike on June 12, 2003 at 12:58.]
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Mike
revised post:
BTW, the "secret" decoder ring is in the Advanced Class
By READING the set of PFAL books (as opposed to remembering them, or hearing someone else remember them) for a masterful 5-senses understanding, you then put yourself in the position for God to reveal more.
Here?s the secret decoder adapted from the AC?s ?16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit?
It?s key #4 - Study the PFAL much. What you can know by your 5-senses God expects you to know.
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mj412
what about the fact Jesus Christ states the comforter, the holy spirit will teach us ALL things MIke?
do you think He was just referring to those people at that time hearing His vioce?
If not then how is it we even need a teacher when He says we need no other teacher?
Reference the bible not pfal.
when you talk you speak down at people, like you have arrived somwhere they can only try to achieve with your help, like your the ones with the answer and we need you to find the true meaning of God.
what a freaking lie, YOU make this topic about YOU MIKE.
Yet you never refer to the bible only pfal.
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Steve Lortz
Mike - You wrote, I'm still reading and pondering your posts, and when time permits I will respond..."
Thank you, Mike. You *do* have a powerful mind, and I'm heartened to know you are turning it toward consideration of some of the things we've set before you. Meanwhile, here's some related information to ponder.
You wrote, "We just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote because so much slipped past us, so much has leaked out, and so much other stuff has been allowed in."
When I first read that, I was taken aback. Here I sit, with a copy of the Blue Book beside the computer, and you're telling me we can't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote. All I have to do is open my copy of the Blue Book and I can SEE exactly what Wierwille wrote!
Then it struck me, you have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to you through a spirit... ANY vagrant spirit... that you no longer trust your sense perceptions, or your ability to understand them.
God hasn't given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Let's use our sound minds to think a few things through.
God designed the kosmos. God designed man. God designed man to experience the kosmos, and operate within it, by means of his senses. God designed man to have access to observable data, through his senses, and to organize that sensible data through his reason. Why did God do these things? What was His purpose?
An observable datum is a "fact". Facts are not contrary or inferior to "truth". In judicial and scientific investigations, which are merely formalized expressions of the reasoning process, people use sensible "facts" to ESTABLISH "truths".
God designed man with 5-senses and reason so that man could use sensible data... *facts*... to ESTABLISH the *truth* of God's good, and acceptable, and perfect will!
Wierwille wrote, "Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true." This is exactly what Wierwille wrote, as recorded near the bottom of page 23 in "The Bible Tells Me So". None of this sentence has slipped past us, none of this sentence has leaked out, no other stuff has been allowed into this sentence. Yet it is wrong.
We know from the sensible data of God's written Word that spirits can lie, deceive and seduce. Not everything that comes from the "spirit world" is true.
Which brings us back to the question I asked in my post of April 24, 2003, 11:17, about half-way down page 12 of this thread, "How can a person distinguish between information that is coming from the holy spirit and information that is coming from demonic sources? Or in other words, how can a person detect counterfeit manifestations of the spirit?"
You replied a few hours later, "This question plagued me for DECADES!... This question of yours is at the heart of why things went so wrong... Solving this detection problem would sure be a boon, wouldn't it!"
You went on to write, "Jesus Christ received revelation from the devil in the desert... Because he had mastered God's written Word he recognized that these revelations were from the wrong source and rejected them."
When Jesus Christ was in the desert, he was able to recognize and reject the source of his temptations because he used his human reason to compare the sensible facts of his situation with facts he had learned by reading God's sensible Word. Jesus used his 5-senses and his reason to ESTABLISH the truth, and thereby distinguish the false.
False spirits don't want us to be able to distinguish the true from the false, because then, we would recognize them for what they are, false spirits. So they do everything they can to undermine our confidence in our God-given 5-senses and our God-given ability to reason.
Mike, you didn't get into this five years ago to get tied up in irrational knots. You got into this so you could have something to be sure of. It's difficult to be certain of something that was written 2000 years ago in a foreign language to a foreign culture. We have to rely SO heavily on translators and interpreters. We ought to be able to KNOW something that was written in our own language, and our own culture, less than a lifetime ago!
How did it get to this place, Mike, where you can't even KNOW what's plainly written in front of your face, without alien spirits to translate and interpret for you?
Love from your fellow OLG,
Steve
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 12, 2003 at 15:00.
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on June 12, 2003 at 15:03.]
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excathedra
i know i know tell me how god gives his revy to a$$holes
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