In the years to come we?ll see if your destructive work stands or if my work stands. We will stand before a man who is God?s appointed judge. Some will be ashamed of their work. Some will be rewarded.
You wrote: ?My approval comes from God and him alone, not you Mike.?
Yes, and you stand approved before Him as you rightly divide His Word.
As a Body, we can help each other rightly divide His Word.
As far as how well I document EXACTLY what Dr said versus MY paraphrasing, you may be basing your judgement on more recent posts of mine. Before you came I posted many of his exact words, but they?re scattered all over GS.
I just recently found out how easy it is to post an active URL here, so I may collect together a table of contents of the pages these lengthy quotes of Dr?s are on.
Dr did indeed say much on our study habits, and if any of it was by revelation, I'd value them highly. One of his later magazine articles was totally devoted to a highly detailed suggested study plan. Besides that one article, there are many more things he said.
In another set of magazine articles titled ?Masters of the Word? and ?How the Word Works? (May/June 1979) he gets into less specific but deeper suggestions. I posted both of those articles with extensive commentary on ?News Flash For Older Grads...? page 4 at:
You also wrote: ?I just listened to a tape last night on righteousness that VPW did in the late 70's, I found it very enlightening as I have been studying righteousness recently, including an extensive study from the collaterals and Kenyon.?
I thank God for the gift of righteousness.
Recognizing all the reality of this gift may take some effort.
I thank God for the good Bible aids we have had over the centuries, and teachers like Kenyon and many more.
I also thank God that He intervened in a way with Dr?s printed Bible aids that is bigger than anything He was able to do for 2000 years. I call PFAL a God-breathed Bible aid. I?m MORE thankful for this, and now spend much more time with it.
You lastly wrote: ?I don't disagree with PFAL I disagree with your conclusions about PFAL.?
I can?t blame you and I don?t mind. I can suggest that if you do what DOCTOR said to do, you?ll be blessed more than you can guess now.
"What I HAVE done is get your attention. Dr?s final instructions were totally ignored."
"IF it?s the case that God gave Dr revelation in those dying last words, then we are 17 years late in exciting that PFAL mastery that's twice insisted upon in that last teaching. Such a situation might very well deserve a shift in study habits to make up for lost time."
I did not need you to get my attention, and I did not ignore his instructions.
You might be surprised at the amount of time I have spent over the last 12 years studying the PFAL materials and other teachings. I hope by now you have seen that I have at least a working knowledge of the material.
I am not the only one either. Many of us did not throw the baby out with the bathwater and our understanding of God's Word has grown greatly because of it.
You wrote: ?Stop assuming I haven't followed Dr's directions.?
Again, it?s not my assumption, it?s an complex observation.
When you see Dr?s specifications as to what HE means by ?master? then you will see that you have only partially done what he said to do in his last teaching.
I?ve posted some of those specifications in Dr?s vocabulary here, and some can be found at the URL I posted above. Here is one that?s short enough to post again.
1979 Advanced Class segment #5:
I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.
So, now I AM ASSUMING that you were an Advanced Class grad in 1979, and Dr sez ALL AC grads, ?even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.?
It?s only a small assumption on my part that since 1979 you haven?t done the above with RHST.
It?s only a small assumption on my part that you?ve never done a word study in any of Dr?s books like we were taught to do them in the KJV. There?s no concordance available yet on Dr?s books, but someone obeying Dr?s final commands in detail should be able to find a bunch of things manually. I?ve been doing that for five years now on occasion, with a few words.
In ?How the Word Words? (URL above) Dr sez word studies in his books and magazine articles are available to do. I?m paraphrasing here. See if you can find the exact text. It?s only a short ?Our Times? editorial.
There were no PFAL mastery programs set up by leadership after Dr?s final instructions were issued, only ?review the basics? exercises from time to time.
No one has REALLY mastered PFAL like Dr told us to do in his dying last/lost words.
If you or anyone you know think you came close, and you still retain what you?ve mastered (recently is best) then I?d like to compare notes with you and learn from your mastery efforts too.
Anyone here who thinks they came close to obeying Dr?s final instructions AFTER he issued them (no fair counting mastery before) THEN I want to learn from you.
.
.
P.S. THe reason I say no "fair counting mastery before" is because in his last teaching Dr was telling his TOP leadership first, and every born again believer as well, that their present (1985) state of mastery was not good enough.
He also said the same thing in his last Emporia teaching (posted here) and his last Limb Meeting.
I am not concerned about whether you think I am falling short in some area of my study of God's Word. Your repeated badgering of whether I am mastering the PFAL materials or not is not based on anything of substance other than your suspicions.
If you think I have fallen short then you would not be the first. I have made that observation about myself many times and have NEVER claimed to have mastered anything. What I said is that I heard VPW's instructions and have studied the materials diligently for the last 12 years.
As I said before I am responsible to God and God alone as to whether I am a workman who needs to not be ashamed. I am not.
Obviously you do not approve of my attitude toward these things, and at the moment I am none too fond of yours.
What is your point here Mike? Do you just want to fight? The way you act I wouldn't compare shopping lists with you let alone my notes. As I said before you come off belittling and you just did it again. I have tried very hard to be respectful of you and honestly and lovingly discuss these things with you and you continue to be offensive.
As I said, I don't trust you and I am not interested in your ideas about PFAL, not because of your lack of knowledge but because of your lack of respect toward me.
Rather sad really. I am sure you are a wealth of knowledge with regard to those materials and would love to be able to have access to that much data. I won't open myself to your agenda however. The Word will speak for itself, I don't need your interpretation of it.
I dunno Mike, MY *destuctive works* by the farthest stretch of anyones imagination could NEVER hold a candle to vp (pmof)`s destructive works...EVER!
Lol he probably was more destructive during any given week of his *ministry* (maybe even a single day) than I could EVER concieve of being in my entire life time...
Buddy YOU are the one proposing we revere this destroyer of souls ... as well as give credence to his false doctine... I`d say that in and of itself is mighty destructive.
So spare me Mike, I am not afraid to meet God on that day, HE knows the score :-)
[This message was edited by rascal on June 06, 2003 at 16:11.]
he writes the above quote in the conclusion of a series.
schneider@bibel is the address I think.
this series is titled
"the certainity of Gods promises"
I like his teaching , yet my point to you was that it isnt vpw God needs Mike it is His children who are called all of His children can and do work with a holy spirit for all of eternity.
Vpw was not special or even very good at writing about God or the holy spirit , if you just try to get out and read other folks you will be much more inspired to hear the teachings we have available today.
Jesus Christ did not fall off the throne when vpw died, And God can get the job done because of His promise not because a man like vpw did anything at all except make a few million dollars from some stupid kids willing to give him a listen for a few years...
With the net , I doubt he would have sold much today, not because of the negative but because we have so much more to seek weird and strange ideas from. we can check to see if it is valid much easier today as well.
I have read you have dedicated many years to pfal , why are you unable to look at other teachings from other speakers? You will find it really shows vpw true colors on his inability to spread the good news of Jesus christ without many many hidden agendas and problems with the actual texts.
What are you so afraid of if you give it up and look at another man who can teach the bible? do you feel unloyal to a man you admire? Are you fearful they may make more sense than He ever did? that would mean facing the posibility your life is wasted on a very simple cult like idea that you cant get over . I am not trying to be mean but red flags really come up in my life if I just refuse or can not even consider a mutitude of conselors and teachers that align teachings with scripture .
what bad thing will happen if you do admit vpw could be wrong about some of his stuff? why are you unable to understand he was far from the only one then or now who has great answers from the bible perspective?
I read your recent post and then went back to your original inventory of summaries of my stated positions, up near the top of this page. I?m no where near done working on these two long posts, but here is the beginning.
I must commend your itemization thoroughness in the earlier post. You collected a lot of detail. Unfortunately, each item is both over-abbreviated and spun wrong, but otherwise that was a good job.
I did notice the each category was missing a last item. To each I?d add this: ?Feels it?s been handled sufficiently already?
As to Steve?s question, I am using my aloofness to motivate others to find and report citings of the Physical/Spiritual dichotomy in Dr?s writings. Unfortunately my clever ploy seems t not be working. Maybe there are a few non-posting readers finding a few, though.
I?m making progress in digitizing my notes and collecting text samples for posting. Soon I?ll post them and we?ll see if Steve can find his answer in the data. I?m still not sure if Steve?s question is meaningful.
While we?re waiting for my notes to be completed, can you, WordWolf, tell me why YOU want to see Steve?s question answered? Do you think such an answer would be useful in some other area? Or do you think there is no answer, and Dr was just printing nonsense? Do you have even a tiny inkling about what Dr was getting at on those pages of the Blue Book (22-24) or do you too think Steve?s answer is necessary to understand those Blue Book pages.
You could set the example of a good internet debater and answer all my questions above. The more thorough your supplied answers are, the more you?ll make me squirm in my hotseat over me not supplying Steve?s answer.
I have seen that many of us have used a double standard regarding mastery levels. The levels we would work our KJVs was much more rigorous that the way we ?mastered? PFAL. None of us worked the actual PFAL text very carefully like we worked the KJV text.
What we DID do is pick up a few tools and techniques from PFAL and then APPLY them to KJV and other texts. I?m not talking about a high UTILIZATION of PFAL principles here. I don?t doubt that you utilized PFAL tools and techniques a lot.
I?m talking about a high level of examining the PFAL text itself with PFAL tools and techniques. When we come back to read, absorb, and obey the actual text of PFAL we will see MUCH greater treasures than we did the first time we read and utilized PFAL.
I?m very glad you did spend years working PFAL. This means that you?ll more quickly see the hidden treasures contained within these writings when you come back and read with the special kind of meekness I am suggesting.
I maintain that no matter how well you read and studied PFAL in the past, and no matter how well you study other Biblical materials, and no matter how well you work your personal relationship with God, there is going to STILL be something fundamentally missing if you don?t come back and work PFAL. God has invested something unique in PFAL and you can?t find it anywhere else. That?s what I fully believe from what I?ve seen in 5 years of such study.
But mike how would you know that there is nothing else out there if you only study pfal with meekness? As mj stated there are plenty of other materials that are better written than what vpw ever wrote. And you don't even have to study to find the 'hidden messages'.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Concerning (E) I have often posted how I think the others who Dr learned from had ALSO gotten revelations or partial revelations. Dr had to get revelation as to WHICH of these men he should go to, and then he had to get revelation as to which things to believe and which to reject from each one. I?ve also seen it?s the case that Dr had to fine tune texts such as these, and that had to involve revelation.
As for the books he burned, I don?t know when that happened, but I think it was around 1942. The others he learned from was from personal visits, and these were well after 1942.
There is a good account of this by Dr and is posted at:
Item (F) bothers me. I?ve said many thing about what it means to master. It?s not nearly the undefined term you insist on. It?s a learn-as-you-do thing. Start by reading. Read a lot, read it all. As you read God will help you organize a way to get it better every day.
Dr used the term ?ALMOST memorize? regarding master.
It?s only in the last 5 years that I decided to reject all other authors as centers of reference and focus exclusively on PFAL. This is a personal choice, and I violate it at will. When I consider that I was more than a decade late in starting my PFAL mastery project, then I get re-motivated to exclude all else. HECK! I still read a lot here at Grease Spot!
I just answered some of your question above in my WordWolf response.
In the 70's I was not like other grads in that I sampled lots of other sources back then. I went to churches often and had long discussions with the leaders. I went to colleges and bookstores and got into discussions. I collected many books not al all related to The Way or PFAL. I continued this to the mid 80?s and then I INCREASED my outside sampling of sources. I did learn a lot. I learn more in PFAL now, though.
It?s not that I?m afraid to give up PFAL. In many ways I DID give it up in the 80?s and 90?s, but I decided to come back to it. It?s not a fear thing, it?s the love I see in the text. It?s God?s love.
My decision to come back to PFAL was very deliberate, and NOT a response to any kind of pressure at all. Just the opposite, I was pressured to NOT come back. I had good reasons to come back, and those who wanted to prevent this had lousy reasons. I came back to PFAL of my own deliberate will.
mike, I don't think you realize this but a lot of us did the opposite of what you have done and doing. I know for myself PFAL is all I studied and I mean really studied inside and out while I was in twi. Now I'm studing other things. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong just a different place in our lives. Do you understand?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Maybe for some here I'm just settinng the stage for a future return to PFAL, after other things are sampled, and they've had a chance to compare things with PFAL.
For the OLGs who left in the late 80's, I'd like to think their sampling outside PFAL is done. I'd like to think OLGs are ready to come back to this Word we were taught in PFAL.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 06, 2003 at 22:35.]
on staff is what I read and I assumed that meant you were quite loyal even then I assumed you always studiedpfal and not much eles.
never the less as vickles stated it may be different places but the way you word this is nutty to me to come back like it was a long lost source of deep revelation that will change your life.
no it is only an orange book , and a few more teachings on the bible. What is there to come too exactly?
I do not get it , a book , I have read thousands of books and occasionly I may reread a book but I do not go back to it . I sometimes think you really believe it is like the only book we should read ever.
Even if I thought it was written so understanding was possible (which it isnt) the holy spirit book is not a fun good read Mike it isnt, in contrast to many books that thrill people and actualy inspire them to seek the Lords will for their life. without the cult stigma and the authors rep now rather muddy to say the least .
It just isnt that good. not even a half a star if you ask me :)-->
It's not just the orange book, it a whole set of them.
The orange book is the organizer. Most people (including me) have developed an irritation reaction to this book because of the great number of times they sat through the class (sometimes an unpleasant experience due to the people running it). It?s a ?familiarity breeds contempt? thing I think. This irritation with the orange book went away after I started finding treasures, but I have to admit some of the feelings you described still linger in my head too. They are much less that they were 5 years ago when I came back, but I can relate to this feeling of negativity towards the orange book. I regard it in me as a bad habit I?m breaking.
The Holy Spirit Book is the encyclopedia, but it also has a heart felt opening section that is far less detailed. It was from reading this section, before I took the class, that I SIT for the first time.
The Blue Book, Green Book, etc. are the heart of the class. It?s in these simple chapters that I see MUCH light streaming daily. Many topics in these chapters NEVER come up in the film class. Some I found I had never read or never carefully read. There are vast unexplored regions in these books for MOST grads.
Then there are Way Magazine articles. A subscription to the magazine was given to every student, and a first issue was part of the written materials they received with the class. These articles are very similar to the collateral chapters mentioned above.
Plus, mj412, there?s the presentation of these things. Most leaders (OLGs) have not themselves seen the spiritual beauty in these PFAL writings, and hence, they are never presented to the rest of us in a positive and loving light. These same leaders, in previous decades, were EXPERTS at presenting PFAL but we all drifted away from it slowly, and leadership totally failed to show us the treasures in mastering PFAL. So far it looks like I may have failed to show these treasures, but this thread does have many items of interest. Maybe I should do a review of all the hidden PFAL treasures just this ?Ubiquitous? thread has discussed. I?m not ready to give up trying, so maybe I will do such a review or summary, kinda like the summaries WordWolf did for me, only this time with my authoritative spin.
quote: It?s only in the last 5 years that I decided to reject all other authors as centers of reference and focus exclusively on PFAL. This is a personal choice, and I violate it at will. When I consider that I was more than a decade late in starting my PFAL mastery project, then I get re-motivated to exclude all else
How can you read PFAL, nevermind study it, not to say master it, & not realize that the above statement is a close paraphrase to what VP said about giving up all other writings except God's Word? Dr. Wierwille said that the Word was to be our only center of reference for learning and not what men wrote about it, including himself
I believe that in certain special PFAL writings, though they have VPW's name on them, their REAL author is God.
The "scriptures" we buy in bookstores that say "Holy Bible" on the outside are NOT God?s Word, but scholarly approximations of it, reconstructions of it, translations of it.
What I say here is consistent with a very close reading of PFAL, but not a loose decades old memory of PFAL. As you compare your memory of what Dr teaches in there, as you compare you memory with what is actually in the WRITTEN text, you?ll see I?m right.
Most people?s memory is of the SPOKEN class on film, video, and tape.
Most people?s memory has faded.
Most people?s memory was originally only partially accurate or complete.
The reason I can say what I say is because I have gone back to the actual written text of PFAL and fixed my erroneous memory.
These are subtle things we?re talking about here. MUCH has been posted already that you?ve missed. You seem to have been away for a while.
BTW, I like what you just posted on the ?Casting Out Spirits? thread. I too was in Manhattan in those same days, early 70?s, seeing the same things you reported. I worked with Ken Barden for Western Union then. Did you know him? He became the Bronx branch leader around ?73. Did you know Plot in Rye back then? I remember you from then. I was with the Burke Brothers in Suffolk.
Here?s take two, another attempt to answer your question.
I believe your estimate has slowly drifted up too high of how God-breathed the KJV, NIV, Critical Greek texts, and ancient fragments really are.
I also believe you estimate of how God-breathed some of Dr?s writings really are has drifted down from your initial exposure to PFAL. We all used to believe God gave abundant revelations to Dr, and I do AGAIN believe this.
As a result, you?re amazed that I can say what I say because you?ve forgotten that when Dr refers to ?God?s written Word? it could be two different things he means.
(1) It could mean the original first century writings in their pristine perfection and the UNDERSTANDING of same in the original, languages, times, and cultures. This is a highly abstract item, and can?t be bought in bookstores, found in libraries, or placed within one book or set of books. It only approximately exists in people?s heads, and it approximately exists in greater degrees in scholar?s heads. When it gets put into paper form it becomes even more a mere approximation. The KJV is a fairly good approximation of God?s Word in written form.
(2) It could mean the modern 20th century writings of PFAL which are the fulfillment of the 1942 promise to Dr where God said He?d teach Dr His Word like it had not been known since the first century if he?d teach it to others. What came off the printing presses is FAR closer to the pure Word of God than the received scriptures and their translations and English versions.
Not everything Dr wrote was God-breathed but SOME was, and still is!
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
82
119
656
81
Popular Days
Jun 15
86
Jul 3
73
Jul 12
50
Mar 31
49
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 82 posts
mj412 119 posts
Mike 656 posts
Steve Lortz 81 posts
Popular Days
Jun 15 2003
86 posts
Jul 3 2003
73 posts
Jul 12 2003
50 posts
Mar 31 2003
49 posts
Popular Posts
Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
rascal,
In the years to come we?ll see if your destructive work stands or if my work stands. We will stand before a man who is God?s appointed judge. Some will be ashamed of their work. Some will be rewarded.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
dizzydog
You wrote: ?My approval comes from God and him alone, not you Mike.?
Yes, and you stand approved before Him as you rightly divide His Word.
As a Body, we can help each other rightly divide His Word.
As far as how well I document EXACTLY what Dr said versus MY paraphrasing, you may be basing your judgement on more recent posts of mine. Before you came I posted many of his exact words, but they?re scattered all over GS.
I just recently found out how easy it is to post an active URL here, so I may collect together a table of contents of the pages these lengthy quotes of Dr?s are on.
Dr did indeed say much on our study habits, and if any of it was by revelation, I'd value them highly. One of his later magazine articles was totally devoted to a highly detailed suggested study plan. Besides that one article, there are many more things he said.
In another set of magazine articles titled ?Masters of the Word? and ?How the Word Works? (May/June 1979) he gets into less specific but deeper suggestions. I posted both of those articles with extensive commentary on ?News Flash For Older Grads...? page 4 at:
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...2722#1526062722
*********
You also wrote: ?I just listened to a tape last night on righteousness that VPW did in the late 70's, I found it very enlightening as I have been studying righteousness recently, including an extensive study from the collaterals and Kenyon.?
I thank God for the gift of righteousness.
Recognizing all the reality of this gift may take some effort.
I thank God for the good Bible aids we have had over the centuries, and teachers like Kenyon and many more.
I also thank God that He intervened in a way with Dr?s printed Bible aids that is bigger than anything He was able to do for 2000 years. I call PFAL a God-breathed Bible aid. I?m MORE thankful for this, and now spend much more time with it.
You lastly wrote: ?I don't disagree with PFAL I disagree with your conclusions about PFAL.?
I can?t blame you and I don?t mind. I can suggest that if you do what DOCTOR said to do, you?ll be blessed more than you can guess now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dizzydog
Mike,
Stop assuming I haven't followed Dr's directions.
You wrote:
"What I HAVE done is get your attention. Dr?s final instructions were totally ignored."
"IF it?s the case that God gave Dr revelation in those dying last words, then we are 17 years late in exciting that PFAL mastery that's twice insisted upon in that last teaching. Such a situation might very well deserve a shift in study habits to make up for lost time."
I did not need you to get my attention, and I did not ignore his instructions.
You might be surprised at the amount of time I have spent over the last 12 years studying the PFAL materials and other teachings. I hope by now you have seen that I have at least a working knowledge of the material.
I am not the only one either. Many of us did not throw the baby out with the bathwater and our understanding of God's Word has grown greatly because of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
little quote of mike
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Mike,
"Dr should have earned your respect."
But he didn't! He lost our respect a long time ago. And he has nobody but himself to blame.
So I share ex's sentiments about the Barf bag. Pardon me whilst I go get the Family Size.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
dizzydog,
You wrote: ?Stop assuming I haven't followed Dr's directions.?
Again, it?s not my assumption, it?s an complex observation.
When you see Dr?s specifications as to what HE means by ?master? then you will see that you have only partially done what he said to do in his last teaching.
I?ve posted some of those specifications in Dr?s vocabulary here, and some can be found at the URL I posted above. Here is one that?s short enough to post again.
1979 Advanced Class segment #5:
I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.
So, now I AM ASSUMING that you were an Advanced Class grad in 1979, and Dr sez ALL AC grads, ?even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.?
It?s only a small assumption on my part that since 1979 you haven?t done the above with RHST.
It?s only a small assumption on my part that you?ve never done a word study in any of Dr?s books like we were taught to do them in the KJV. There?s no concordance available yet on Dr?s books, but someone obeying Dr?s final commands in detail should be able to find a bunch of things manually. I?ve been doing that for five years now on occasion, with a few words.
In ?How the Word Words? (URL above) Dr sez word studies in his books and magazine articles are available to do. I?m paraphrasing here. See if you can find the exact text. It?s only a short ?Our Times? editorial.
There were no PFAL mastery programs set up by leadership after Dr?s final instructions were issued, only ?review the basics? exercises from time to time.
No one has REALLY mastered PFAL like Dr told us to do in his dying last/lost words.
If you or anyone you know think you came close, and you still retain what you?ve mastered (recently is best) then I?d like to compare notes with you and learn from your mastery efforts too.
Anyone here who thinks they came close to obeying Dr?s final instructions AFTER he issued them (no fair counting mastery before) THEN I want to learn from you.
.
.
P.S. THe reason I say no "fair counting mastery before" is because in his last teaching Dr was telling his TOP leadership first, and every born again believer as well, that their present (1985) state of mastery was not good enough.
He also said the same thing in his last Emporia teaching (posted here) and his last Limb Meeting.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dizzydog
Mike,
This is getting tedious.
Let me explain the way you are coming off to me.
I am not concerned about whether you think I am falling short in some area of my study of God's Word. Your repeated badgering of whether I am mastering the PFAL materials or not is not based on anything of substance other than your suspicions.
If you think I have fallen short then you would not be the first. I have made that observation about myself many times and have NEVER claimed to have mastered anything. What I said is that I heard VPW's instructions and have studied the materials diligently for the last 12 years.
As I said before I am responsible to God and God alone as to whether I am a workman who needs to not be ashamed. I am not.
Obviously you do not approve of my attitude toward these things, and at the moment I am none too fond of yours.
What is your point here Mike? Do you just want to fight? The way you act I wouldn't compare shopping lists with you let alone my notes. As I said before you come off belittling and you just did it again. I have tried very hard to be respectful of you and honestly and lovingly discuss these things with you and you continue to be offensive.
As I said, I don't trust you and I am not interested in your ideas about PFAL, not because of your lack of knowledge but because of your lack of respect toward me.
Rather sad really. I am sure you are a wealth of knowledge with regard to those materials and would love to be able to have access to that much data. I won't open myself to your agenda however. The Word will speak for itself, I don't need your interpretation of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I dunno Mike, MY *destuctive works* by the farthest stretch of anyones imagination could NEVER hold a candle to vp (pmof)`s destructive works...EVER!
Lol he probably was more destructive during any given week of his *ministry* (maybe even a single day) than I could EVER concieve of being in my entire life time...
Buddy YOU are the one proposing we revere this destroyer of souls ... as well as give credence to his false doctine... I`d say that in and of itself is mighty destructive.
So spare me Mike, I am not afraid to meet God on that day, HE knows the score :-)
[This message was edited by rascal on June 06, 2003 at 16:11.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
For those of you wondering if the tally I
was doing the other day has changed,
here's the latest...
A) Concerning Steve's question, it became a "dishonest"
question again. Mike suggested that an answer to that one
question should be sufficient to convince people to
wildly embrace his viewpoint.
He asked what Steve would do with an answer-
"Drop your present line of research and start mastering
PFAL?"
B) Mike seems to be less insulting, although his trademark
hubris will never change. Still, that's an improvement
of sorts.
C) Concerning vpw's numerous accounts of rape, he
suggested anyone else would have done the same.
After saying vpw said people put in top positions were done
so regardless of whether or not they were qualified, he
said "He often said this of himself, even...
God often had a limited number of flawed men He could
install as leaders: King Saul and Balaam are two extreme
examples discussed here before....All God selected, all got
it screwed up royally. You and I'd done the same in one
category or other had we been tapped to serve God's people."
This, BTW, is on-subject because Mike is convinced that
God appointed vpw in a manner similar to King Saul, and,
apparently, with the similar level of authority.
So, he's still saying anyone else would have done it, and
that, since vpw was "Doctor" and "The Teacher", ruining
people's lives should be overlooked.
D) Concerning the 1942 promise, a stony silence.
E) Concerning the pfal class being a photocopying of the
work of a handful of others, a stony silence.
F) Concerning the "mastering PFAL" "secrets", nothing.
He requoted that thing about memorizing pfal, but won't
say this is supposed to be 1/2 the task. About the abject
refusal to read or consider anything NOT pfal, in a pitiful
attempt to hide from anything that could show up pfal as a
scam, or show that OTHER Christians can and do exceed vpw's
level of skill.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and if anyone is wondering if I'll be adding anything of
substance to the discussion, other than pointing out when
Mike refuses to do so, the answer is "yes."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
Given O Blakely is a teacher on the net.
he writes the above quote in the conclusion of a series.
schneider@bibel is the address I think.
this series is titled
"the certainity of Gods promises"
I like his teaching , yet my point to you was that it isnt vpw God needs Mike it is His children who are called all of His children can and do work with a holy spirit for all of eternity.
Vpw was not special or even very good at writing about God or the holy spirit , if you just try to get out and read other folks you will be much more inspired to hear the teachings we have available today.
Jesus Christ did not fall off the throne when vpw died, And God can get the job done because of His promise not because a man like vpw did anything at all except make a few million dollars from some stupid kids willing to give him a listen for a few years...
With the net , I doubt he would have sold much today, not because of the negative but because we have so much more to seek weird and strange ideas from. we can check to see if it is valid much easier today as well.
I have read you have dedicated many years to pfal , why are you unable to look at other teachings from other speakers? You will find it really shows vpw true colors on his inability to spread the good news of Jesus christ without many many hidden agendas and problems with the actual texts.
What are you so afraid of if you give it up and look at another man who can teach the bible? do you feel unloyal to a man you admire? Are you fearful they may make more sense than He ever did? that would mean facing the posibility your life is wasted on a very simple cult like idea that you cant get over . I am not trying to be mean but red flags really come up in my life if I just refuse or can not even consider a mutitude of conselors and teachers that align teachings with scripture .
what bad thing will happen if you do admit vpw could be wrong about some of his stuff? why are you unable to understand he was far from the only one then or now who has great answers from the bible perspective?
Why must He be the only one for you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
WordWolf,
I read your recent post and then went back to your original inventory of summaries of my stated positions, up near the top of this page. I?m no where near done working on these two long posts, but here is the beginning.
I must commend your itemization thoroughness in the earlier post. You collected a lot of detail. Unfortunately, each item is both over-abbreviated and spun wrong, but otherwise that was a good job.
I did notice the each category was missing a last item. To each I?d add this: ?Feels it?s been handled sufficiently already?
As to Steve?s question, I am using my aloofness to motivate others to find and report citings of the Physical/Spiritual dichotomy in Dr?s writings. Unfortunately my clever ploy seems t not be working. Maybe there are a few non-posting readers finding a few, though.
I?m making progress in digitizing my notes and collecting text samples for posting. Soon I?ll post them and we?ll see if Steve can find his answer in the data. I?m still not sure if Steve?s question is meaningful.
While we?re waiting for my notes to be completed, can you, WordWolf, tell me why YOU want to see Steve?s question answered? Do you think such an answer would be useful in some other area? Or do you think there is no answer, and Dr was just printing nonsense? Do you have even a tiny inkling about what Dr was getting at on those pages of the Blue Book (22-24) or do you too think Steve?s answer is necessary to understand those Blue Book pages.
You could set the example of a good internet debater and answer all my questions above. The more thorough your supplied answers are, the more you?ll make me squirm in my hotseat over me not supplying Steve?s answer.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
WordWolf,
Concerning the 1942 promise, are you talking about that thing where it was discussed if the snow physically happened or was it a vision?
I thought I answered "I don't know" to that one. I KNOW I didn't care what the answer was.
Is this what you meant by item (D) above?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
dizzydog,
I have seen that many of us have used a double standard regarding mastery levels. The levels we would work our KJVs was much more rigorous that the way we ?mastered? PFAL. None of us worked the actual PFAL text very carefully like we worked the KJV text.
What we DID do is pick up a few tools and techniques from PFAL and then APPLY them to KJV and other texts. I?m not talking about a high UTILIZATION of PFAL principles here. I don?t doubt that you utilized PFAL tools and techniques a lot.
I?m talking about a high level of examining the PFAL text itself with PFAL tools and techniques. When we come back to read, absorb, and obey the actual text of PFAL we will see MUCH greater treasures than we did the first time we read and utilized PFAL.
I?m very glad you did spend years working PFAL. This means that you?ll more quickly see the hidden treasures contained within these writings when you come back and read with the special kind of meekness I am suggesting.
I maintain that no matter how well you read and studied PFAL in the past, and no matter how well you study other Biblical materials, and no matter how well you work your personal relationship with God, there is going to STILL be something fundamentally missing if you don?t come back and work PFAL. God has invested something unique in PFAL and you can?t find it anywhere else. That?s what I fully believe from what I?ve seen in 5 years of such study.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
But mike how would you know that there is nothing else out there if you only study pfal with meekness? As mj stated there are plenty of other materials that are better written than what vpw ever wrote. And you don't even have to study to find the 'hidden messages'.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
WordWolf,
Concerning (E) I have often posted how I think the others who Dr learned from had ALSO gotten revelations or partial revelations. Dr had to get revelation as to WHICH of these men he should go to, and then he had to get revelation as to which things to believe and which to reject from each one. I?ve also seen it?s the case that Dr had to fine tune texts such as these, and that had to involve revelation.
As for the books he burned, I don?t know when that happened, but I think it was around 1942. The others he learned from was from personal visits, and these were well after 1942.
There is a good account of this by Dr and is posted at:
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=6816064602
**************
Item (F) bothers me. I?ve said many thing about what it means to master. It?s not nearly the undefined term you insist on. It?s a learn-as-you-do thing. Start by reading. Read a lot, read it all. As you read God will help you organize a way to get it better every day.
Dr used the term ?ALMOST memorize? regarding master.
It?s only in the last 5 years that I decided to reject all other authors as centers of reference and focus exclusively on PFAL. This is a personal choice, and I violate it at will. When I consider that I was more than a decade late in starting my PFAL mastery project, then I get re-motivated to exclude all else. HECK! I still read a lot here at Grease Spot!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
vickles,
I just answered some of your question above in my WordWolf response.
In the 70's I was not like other grads in that I sampled lots of other sources back then. I went to churches often and had long discussions with the leaders. I went to colleges and bookstores and got into discussions. I collected many books not al all related to The Way or PFAL. I continued this to the mid 80?s and then I INCREASED my outside sampling of sources. I did learn a lot. I learn more in PFAL now, though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
mj412,
It?s not that I?m afraid to give up PFAL. In many ways I DID give it up in the 80?s and 90?s, but I decided to come back to it. It?s not a fear thing, it?s the love I see in the text. It?s God?s love.
My decision to come back to PFAL was very deliberate, and NOT a response to any kind of pressure at all. Just the opposite, I was pressured to NOT come back. I had good reasons to come back, and those who wanted to prevent this had lousy reasons. I came back to PFAL of my own deliberate will.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
mike, I don't think you realize this but a lot of us did the opposite of what you have done and doing. I know for myself PFAL is all I studied and I mean really studied inside and out while I was in twi. Now I'm studing other things. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong just a different place in our lives. Do you understand?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
vickles,
Yes, I do understand that.
Maybe for some here I'm just settinng the stage for a future return to PFAL, after other things are sampled, and they've had a chance to compare things with PFAL.
For the OLGs who left in the late 80's, I'd like to think their sampling outside PFAL is done. I'd like to think OLGs are ready to come back to this Word we were taught in PFAL.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 06, 2003 at 22:35.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
ok i guess I didnt understand.
on staff is what I read and I assumed that meant you were quite loyal even then I assumed you always studiedpfal and not much eles.
never the less as vickles stated it may be different places but the way you word this is nutty to me to come back like it was a long lost source of deep revelation that will change your life.
no it is only an orange book , and a few more teachings on the bible. What is there to come too exactly?
I do not get it , a book , I have read thousands of books and occasionly I may reread a book but I do not go back to it . I sometimes think you really believe it is like the only book we should read ever.
Even if I thought it was written so understanding was possible (which it isnt) the holy spirit book is not a fun good read Mike it isnt, in contrast to many books that thrill people and actualy inspire them to seek the Lords will for their life. without the cult stigma and the authors rep now rather muddy to say the least .
It just isnt that good. not even a half a star if you ask me
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
mj412,
It's not just the orange book, it a whole set of them.
The orange book is the organizer. Most people (including me) have developed an irritation reaction to this book because of the great number of times they sat through the class (sometimes an unpleasant experience due to the people running it). It?s a ?familiarity breeds contempt? thing I think. This irritation with the orange book went away after I started finding treasures, but I have to admit some of the feelings you described still linger in my head too. They are much less that they were 5 years ago when I came back, but I can relate to this feeling of negativity towards the orange book. I regard it in me as a bad habit I?m breaking.
The Holy Spirit Book is the encyclopedia, but it also has a heart felt opening section that is far less detailed. It was from reading this section, before I took the class, that I SIT for the first time.
The Blue Book, Green Book, etc. are the heart of the class. It?s in these simple chapters that I see MUCH light streaming daily. Many topics in these chapters NEVER come up in the film class. Some I found I had never read or never carefully read. There are vast unexplored regions in these books for MOST grads.
Then there are Way Magazine articles. A subscription to the magazine was given to every student, and a first issue was part of the written materials they received with the class. These articles are very similar to the collateral chapters mentioned above.
Plus, mj412, there?s the presentation of these things. Most leaders (OLGs) have not themselves seen the spiritual beauty in these PFAL writings, and hence, they are never presented to the rest of us in a positive and loving light. These same leaders, in previous decades, were EXPERTS at presenting PFAL but we all drifted away from it slowly, and leadership totally failed to show us the treasures in mastering PFAL. So far it looks like I may have failed to show these treasures, but this thread does have many items of interest. Maybe I should do a review of all the hidden PFAL treasures just this ?Ubiquitous? thread has discussed. I?m not ready to give up trying, so maybe I will do such a review or summary, kinda like the summaries WordWolf did for me, only this time with my authoritative spin.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
How can you read PFAL, nevermind study it, not to say master it, & not realize that the above statement is a close paraphrase to what VP said about giving up all other writings except God's Word? Dr. Wierwille said that the Word was to be our only center of reference for learning and not what men wrote about it, including himself
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Tom,
I believe that in certain special PFAL writings, though they have VPW's name on them, their REAL author is God.
The "scriptures" we buy in bookstores that say "Holy Bible" on the outside are NOT God?s Word, but scholarly approximations of it, reconstructions of it, translations of it.
What I say here is consistent with a very close reading of PFAL, but not a loose decades old memory of PFAL. As you compare your memory of what Dr teaches in there, as you compare you memory with what is actually in the WRITTEN text, you?ll see I?m right.
Most people?s memory is of the SPOKEN class on film, video, and tape.
Most people?s memory has faded.
Most people?s memory was originally only partially accurate or complete.
The reason I can say what I say is because I have gone back to the actual written text of PFAL and fixed my erroneous memory.
These are subtle things we?re talking about here. MUCH has been posted already that you?ve missed. You seem to have been away for a while.
BTW, I like what you just posted on the ?Casting Out Spirits? thread. I too was in Manhattan in those same days, early 70?s, seeing the same things you reported. I worked with Ken Barden for Western Union then. Did you know him? He became the Bronx branch leader around ?73. Did you know Plot in Rye back then? I remember you from then. I was with the Burke Brothers in Suffolk.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Tom,
Here?s take two, another attempt to answer your question.
I believe your estimate has slowly drifted up too high of how God-breathed the KJV, NIV, Critical Greek texts, and ancient fragments really are.
I also believe you estimate of how God-breathed some of Dr?s writings really are has drifted down from your initial exposure to PFAL. We all used to believe God gave abundant revelations to Dr, and I do AGAIN believe this.
As a result, you?re amazed that I can say what I say because you?ve forgotten that when Dr refers to ?God?s written Word? it could be two different things he means.
(1) It could mean the original first century writings in their pristine perfection and the UNDERSTANDING of same in the original, languages, times, and cultures. This is a highly abstract item, and can?t be bought in bookstores, found in libraries, or placed within one book or set of books. It only approximately exists in people?s heads, and it approximately exists in greater degrees in scholar?s heads. When it gets put into paper form it becomes even more a mere approximation. The KJV is a fairly good approximation of God?s Word in written form.
(2) It could mean the modern 20th century writings of PFAL which are the fulfillment of the 1942 promise to Dr where God said He?d teach Dr His Word like it had not been known since the first century if he?d teach it to others. What came off the printing presses is FAR closer to the pure Word of God than the received scriptures and their translations and English versions.
Not everything Dr wrote was God-breathed but SOME was, and still is!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.