You will notice I edited my post after I found the phrase perfectly renewed mind in the PFAL book.
Please read my edited post for my comment on the renewed mind.
As far as your statement regarding the translations of the bible:
You wrote -
?In the film class (segment 16, page 127 in the book) Dr. says:
"No translation, no translation, and I want you to listen
very carefully; for no translation, and by the way that's
all we have today at best are translations. No translation
may properly be called The Word Of God... ..no translation!"
Then a minute later he repeats:
"Now I said that no translation, no translation, let alone
a version, no translation may properly be called The Word
Of God..."
Then several minutes later he hits it again:
"And in this class on Power For Abundant Living, when I
refer to The Word Of God I may hold the King James Version
or I may hold some other version and point to it; I do not
mean that version. I mean that Word of God which was
originally given when holy men of God spake as they were
moved by the Holy Spirit."
The paragraph I posted earlier was the next paragraph after this statement. Since you present this as proof of your assertions I will let VPW respond to you.
Page 128 -
"Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word - which I am confident we can - then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord."
You have repeatedly confused my devotion to the scriptures as being a devotion to KJV. I have NEVER asserted such a thing.
In PFAL VPW states that 85-90% of the Word of God can be interpreted in the verse from Genesis to Revelation. You have taken one thing he has said and used it as an excuse to discount the scriptures (versions, translations et al?) as being "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants ?. Never mind the other two ways we have of interpreting the scriptures, in the context and where it has been used before.
Even if we don?t have 100% of the original Word of God using VPW?s own statistics we could still have at least 90-95% of it right within the versions you have slandered. 90-95% is not unreliable nor is it tattered, Mike.
And yet VPW himself says that in order to get the Word OUT of any translation or version we have to study those translations and versions. You state the translations and versions are "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants?, VPW writes that God?s Word is still in those documents IF we study them. You can?t take something OUT if it is not IN there to begin with. Remember, ?Search the scriptures??
I am going to keep reminding you what you have said because I never heard or read VPW assert that the scriptures we have in any translation were "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants?. If he ever heard someone make such a statement he would have blown a gasket. These are your words no one else?s. If PFAL is the Word of God as you have asserted then why not just speak the Word? Why add your own words to it? Why make statements that are not supportable? You are either lazy or propounding an agenda.
If time were more abundant I?d love to get into all the points you made. Some will have to wait, though. For the few I can deal with this morning, I will have to resort to pasting in pre-written material.
One point is this: there is a difference between OBTAINING God?s Word and RIGHTLY DIVIDING it.
You wrote: ?In PFAL VPW states that 85-90% of the Word of God can be interpreted in the verse from Genesis to Revelation.?
If I had the time now I?d find the exact quote. Once we HAVE the Word, we can THEN see that it interprets itself 85-90% of the time. But, what about where we DON?T have the Word. There?s no guarantee that it all survived the first century reprobate copyists and the second century persecutions, nor a guarantee that any lost or distorted portions would get derived or straightened out by working the portions that did get handed down relatively intact.
Dr did sometimes talk about the non-authoritativeness of the existing manuscripts, and he even occasionally mentioned that academic collection of fragments is neither authoritative nor complete.
Here is a section of a recent e-mail with a friend.
*************
>Having served at HQ and as a region leader, and having participated in
>numerous research sessions, a statement like "someday we'll find a text that
>substantiates this" was VERY rare, and always in the context of the Word
>interpreting itself, not Dr W prophesying without an obvious solid biblical
>basis. Do you have any of these statements that would show otherwise?
>
Yes. But it requires MASTERING the material, not just being familiar with it, before these page references will have the authority of proof in your eyes.
It wasn't all THAT rare Dr said those kind of things. I was NEVER in a research meeting with Dr, yet I heard statements like "someday we'll find a text" several times, even on SNS tapes. I think he was dropping hints for now, when we are supposed to be mastering the books. He was always dropping hints like "I didn't write the book" that could easily be associated with his books as the Bible.
For him to even ONCE say "someday we'll find a text" should have arrested the attention of all those around him. I remember being embarrassed or angry when I heard him say it the several times I did. I thought there was something wrong. It never fit for me. Now it does.
I have MANY, many statements in print and on tape that will fit into this picture of WHY we should be mastering the PFAL writings. Regardless if I succeed in proving to you this reason WHY we should master the PFAL writings, it's STILL THE CASE that Dr told us all to do it, and we all disobeyed.
****************
Back to you, diz.
You see, there is NO authoritative texts in Greek or Aramaic. Even if there were, there?s still no official authoritative Greek scholar (or team) that?ll give us the last word on what was written. It?s all guesswork, often right, but wrong in unknown places, and incomplete in other unknown places.
Dr did teach us to work our 5-senses on what IS available. The KJV is a VERY good place to start. It?s approximate, and Dr tells us that often, and to change it in places, or ?scratch out? something that crept in. He did often tell us that this approximation was pretty good at times. We ALL knew the KJV was far from authoritative. Some of us knew that the ancient manuscripts were devoid of authority. It wasn?t talked about much.
.
**************
Here?s another area where Dr indicated that the existing manuscripts were not good enough for those who wanted to go all the way with God. This is a paste from a previous post
It's obvious that I laid some pretty incredible ideas on you. These
things will become clearer as we obey Dr's final instructions and get down
to mastering those collateral books that came with the class. And who are
we to refuse Dr's dying last words to us?
The grand summary of all that I've attempted to communicate to you is
that those PFAL books are much bigger than we had ever dreamed, MUCH MUCH
bigger! They really are directly from God and far surpass what the King
James translation committee were able to come up with. That mere version,
and all versions are NOT really the Bible.
Versions can be close in some places, far in other places. Without PFAL,
the KJV and all man-made versions are powerless and flawed. Counterfeits
will, of necessity, contain some positive truths, but when the power is most
needed it will not be found. PFAL is God's way of making limp, opinionated
versions of the Bible come to life.
This same recognition of the man-made status of all versions applies to
translations as well, and even to the existing ancient manuscripts.
Remember that those manuscripts are not really copies of the originals,
they're mis-copies. They were made and preserved mostly by a reprobate
church, having all forsaken Paul, and they were all made under very extreme
pressures of persecution. The reason for the "critical" texts is to sort
through the massive differences in all the ancient manuscripts.
Even if we had THE original manuscripts, we'd still be subject to the
massive satanic influences residing in the teachers and schools of the
ancient languages which we'd depend on. Add to that dilemma all the devilish
evolution of languages and idioms and cultual, plus the overwhelming
religious bias we are all born into.
So when Dr said in "The Way Living In Love" page 179 (right after the
page on the 1942 promise), that the Word is buried, he meant that the real
Bible is NOT available outside that audible promise from God. He uses that
word "buried" there THRICE. Other phrases in that section include phrases
like "terrific need" and "so far from hearing" and "no one around to teach."
It's believing an illusion to think that we have a choice between the
Bible and PFAL. We simply don't have the Bible, only counterfeits. Just
because a traditionally respected book has the label "Bible" on the outside,
that doesn't change the pickles on the inside. And we really are in a
pickle ourselves if we are immersed in existing man-made versions of the
Bible without prior PFAL mastery.
************************
Here?s the text of those cited pages in
?The Way ... Living In Love?
by Elena Whiteside,
with my ALL CAPS
pp. 178-181
"Then Rosalind left. It was the fall of the year. Kids were back in school already. It must have been September. I was sitting in my office, an old dentist's office just around the corner from the church where I served ? I'll show you that too when we get there. I bet you it's still there, though I haven't been back here since I left.
?I was praying. And I told Father that He could have the whole thing, unless there were REAL GENUINE ANSWERS THAT I WOULDN'T EVER HAVE TO BACK UP ON.
"And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. HE SAID HE WOULD TEACH ME THE WORD AS IT HAD NOT BEEN KNOWN SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY IF I WOULD TEACH IT TO OTHERS.
"Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me." He shakes his head slowly smiling. "It's just too fantastic. People won't believe it. But He spoke to me just as plainly as I'm talking now to you.
"But really, why is it so strange? When you think about it, you see in the Bible that all through the ages God talked to people. God talked to Moses, to all the prophets. God talked to Paul. All through the centuries, God has talked to people in times of great need. And that's what we have today ? a terrific need. People are just so far from hearing and believing the Word of God.
?You don't get it in the theological schools. The Word is BURIED, just like it was in the time of Jeremiah. Oh, they had their priests, their higher echelons, their temples, their rituals. It all looked so religious, you know. But the Word of God was BURIED. Oh, they were teaching the people something -- they called it the Word of God maybe, but the Word was BURIED. God spoke directly to Jeremiah.
"The Word is BURIED today. If there's no one around to teach it, God has to teach it Himself. You see, I am a product of my times. God knew me before the foundations of the world, just like He knew you and everyone else. We were all in God's foreknowledge from the beginnings.
?God knew I would believe His Word. And every day I am more and more deeply convinced of this ministry which teaches people the accuracy and integrity of God's Word. Without this ministry the world would be in far greater spiritual darkness about His Word. There would be less light in the world. Where else but in this ministry do you find the Word of God so living and real? This is truly a time of terrific need." Doctor nods his head abruptly, as if to punctuate his urgency.
"Well, I couldn't believe that God talked to me right then. You see, God's right here. He always has been here. He is still here. And God is willing and able to reveal everything to anyone or everyone. But we are just unable to receive it. We don?t believe it. It's like, you can't pour a gallon of water in a teacup. It's just not big enough to receive it, take it all in. You have to make the cup bigger first. You build up the container, and then you fill it little by little. He fills us a little bit at a time as we can take it. He knows how much we can take because God knows everything. God doesn't waste His revelation on people who cannot believe it.
"Paul had to be tremendously built up to believe ?receive ? the mystery that had been hidden since before the foundations of the world. John, too, had to be built up to receive the revelation set forth in the book of Revelation. It's taken many years and a lot of trips and searching to build my believing to this point also. But God knows our hearts.
?Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by the next day where I said to myself ? maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I really know, so that I can believe.'
***************************
The sign we have comes from our obedience to master the books we were told to master.
quote: ...He was always dropping hints like "I didn't write the book" that could easily be associated with his books as the Bible.
For him to even ONCE say "someday we'll find a text" should have arrested the attention of all those around him. I remember being embarrassed or angry when I heard him say it the several times I did. I thought there was something wrong. It never fit for me. Now it does.
Oh, Mike, you don't really think he was talking about the PFAL BOOK when he said, "I didn't write the book," do you? And that he was hinting that the texts we are going to "find" were HIS? Mike, dude, you gotta get out more.
I was in on Corps meetings when he said, "someday we'll find a text," and it was always about some minor detail of Biblical accuracy. (I'd agree with your "region leader friend" on that one.) And he'd say, "I didn't write the book" right after quoting a passage in the KJV that proved the point he was making.
Mike, you gave me a chuckle today on that one. Thanks for the laugh. Now, go stake your life on something important.
As far as finding the exact quote look on pages 145-148. You will find I quoted it quite accurately.
Your long prose is not convincing.
I can still show someone from the scriptures how to become born again, manifest that Holy Spirit, understand the hope and all of the things that go along with it. Just as VPW did in PFAL. "The Scriptures tell us the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, and about God: this is doctrine - it is right believing."
The "versions" we have still get the job done and still provides for man a way to be reconciled to God. Believe it or not I have not thrown the baby out with the bathwater and have taken VPW's encouragement very seriously.
You have conveniently ignored what VPW said on page 128 of PFAL.
"To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself."
You are trying to back peddle away from this statement by saying now that "Dr did sometimes talk about the non-authoritativeness of the existing manuscripts, and he even occasionally mentioned that academic collection of fragments is neither authoritative nor complete." You don't have the quote, you cannot prove he ever said this so until you do don't assert this is what he thought. He may have said things like this but what he said in PFAL is that "To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses."
I have shown you what was written in PFAL and you have ignored it, and attempted to muddle the statement by throwing in a long email you had with someone else.
You wrote:
"He was always dropping hints like "I didn't write the book" that could easily be associated with his books as the Bible."
Are you assuming this or do you know this is what he meant when he said it? If you don't know then don't give your assumptions. If it's God's Word he will say what he means and mean what he says.
OK so we need to master those books. This does not make the case that the scriptures we have no longer contain the Word of God.
Everyone - I have to admit, I haven't paid as much attention to what Mike has written as I should have. This morning, I was reading through things he has posted concerning the "Christ formed in you/perfectly renewed mind" business, and I came across this beaut of a passage (April 28, 2003, 19:48, about half-way down page 13 of this thread).
**********
"I describe this topic as 'advanced' for a few reasons. One is that this 'Christ' within (a la Gal. 4:19) is NOT the same as the familiar foundational topic 'Christ in you the hope of glory.' The Col. 1:25 type of 'Christ in' is pneuma hagion, holy spirit, the gift that does not affect the mind, because this 'Christ in' is in the spirit catagory, while the mind is in the soul catagory.
"'Christ in you the hope of glory' is a free gift requiring believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead. Prior to this believing, people received this gift with a nautili [sic - Steve] man's mind. After this believing it's STILL a natural realm oriented mind. This Christ is created in a man.
"Christ FORMED within the mind is something spiritual happening in the natural realm. This Christ is formed and grows in a renewed mind according to the accuracy of God's Word. This Christ formed within is the new man, the self like Jesus Christ, It's Jesus Christ like, it's a love self, a Jesus Christ self, and it's found only in Jesus Christ men and women. This Christ is FORMED within a man's soul.
"This new man is advanced. He's God's REAL masterpiece. From the 5-senses perspective, receiving pneuma hagion where there was none before is a masterful stroke of grace on God's part. But the 5-senses view cannot contain the advance Christ Formed. From God's perspective, the REAL masterpeice is this Christ formed in the soul. It's the NEW spirit mentioned in the 'Are You Limiting God?' chapter in the Blue Book.
"The advanced Christ formed within fits well (while Christ in the hope does not) with this phrase from Part I of 'The Love Way' posted last week: 'Your spirit must have the privilege of meditating in the Word.' This indicates that it's not 'pneuma hagion' Dr is talking about, but the 'spirit of God' that's born into the SOUL catagory, a different, later process from that created spirit we were first taught. This spirit is capable of 'meditating' in the Word, a mental process, not in the spiritual catagory of holy spirit. This advanced Christ formed within is the NEW man and the NEW spirit. It's one notch away from the spiritual body.
"Notice also from Part I of 'The Love Way' above that the REAL man is described as 'your spirit.' Again this can't be pneuma hagion, but something even bigger. This spirit is fed by the Word, not SIT."
**********
Well, what can we learn from this?
First, Mike's "advanced Christ formed within" is a spirit, but it isn't the gift of holy spirit. It never even claims that it IS holy.
Mike's "advanced Christ formed within" is "God's REAL masterpiece", not that puny Pentecost stuff. It makes one a NEW man, a self like Christ, Jesus Christ like, a love self, a Jesus Christ self. It will make one a superman, an ubermensch. One of the devil's first lies was "...ye shall be as gods." Now he's up-graded to "...ye shall be as Jesus Christ."
But it's not for everyone. Ordinary Christians don't have the "advanced Christ formed within." It's found only in "Jesus Christ men and women." Do you see how the spirit dwelling in Mike's mind inspires his noted air of condescension?
Christ in you, the hope of glory, is a free gift. Not so, the "advanced Christ formed within." Mike describes receiving this other spirit, "...it's not 'pneuma hagion'... but the 'spirit of God' that's born in the SOUL catagory, a different, later process from that created spirit we were first taught."
There is a process involved with receiving the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit that is different from, and comes later than does the process of receiving holy spirit. Mike doesn't give the specifics of this process, but he does write, "This Christ is formed and grows in a renewed mind." A person receives the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit by mentally committing himself to a particular way of thinking.
Mike wrote, "This spirit is capable of 'meditating' in the Word, a mental process not in the catagory of holy spirit... This spirit is fed by the Word, not SIT."
From some of Mike's postings on earlier threads, we know that his conception of "meditation" does not include the use of critical thinking. One gets comfortable and quiet and allows the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit to whisper its interpretations, bizarre interpretations with only tenuous connections to reality. It appears to have an aversion to holy spirit and speaking in tongues.
I believe Mike's "advanced Christ formed within" spirit is a demon or demons, exercising influence over those who accept their twisted interpretations.
But it's still not too late, Mike. If you turn back to God's truth through the Lord Jesus Christ, and stop playing around with those demons' perverse ideas, they will have to leave you, in the name of Jesus Christ!
Mike you have made the case that the scriptures are not God's Word anymore.
Being bound by them is no longer an issue, you can say anything you like and based on what you believe God has worked in you, you will declare.
I believe what you are endeavoring to do here is the same thing the adversary has attempted to do since the fall of man. Steal, kill and destroy God's Word. Get people to doubt God's Word and subsequently believe it is no longer valid.
You have asserted PFAL is the replacement for the scriptures but PFAL itself declares the inportance of the scriptures. And you can twist it anyway you want but you cannot change what was written in the PFAL book about God's Word.
You write very LITTLE of the scriptures in your million word march through this forum. God has a reason for everything he says and he says it in a way that even a child need not err therein. Your posts are long, and have little scripture to back them up.
As a WOW surely you remember being trained to open the Word and provide chapter and verse for what you witnessed to people. It is a shame that this lesson has been lost on you here in this forum.
You can't go into a store or library and put "The Scriptures" into your hands, ESPECIALLY if you aren't fluent in Aramaic of Greek.
?The Scriptures,? as taught in PFAL, are an abstract entity. The originals have been lost. What we buy in stores or read in libraries or are taught in a class are APPROXIMATIONS. In some situations they will do us well, in others not.
I am very much bound to recognize an authority bigger than me: the PFAL writings. In every specific practical case, the same bounds you see in your ?authoritative? scriptures, I see in PFAL or the KJV verses printed within. I cannot say anything I want; I?m bound to what is printed in PFAL, which is in most cases identical to KJV Bibles.
I am no longer bound to any theologians or scholars! Hallelujah!
What I am endeavoring to do here is NOT the ?same thing the adversary has attempted to do since the fall of man. Steal, kill and destroy God's Word. Get people to doubt God's Word and subsequently believe it is no longer valid.?
Just the opposite, I?m saying that the small doubts that should have plagued every PFAL grad scholar (or near scholar) for decades are now gone.
God has not only given us an authoritative reissued set of His Words, but He ALSO has, from within these inspired PFAL writings, verified that the Biblical remnants we have had handed down to us WERE INDEED all along God?s perfect Word, before being cut up with men?s knives and thrown into the fire for 2000 years.
You seem bound to a theology that says God is forbidden to get anything in writing when it comes to these modern centuries. Your dogma cannot tolerate God?s intervention to reissue any or all of His Word. Your dogma will not allow God to inspire perfect writing, even to assist His children as they try to sort through which theologians or scholars they can trust THIS decade to be their necessary middlemen to the ancient scriptures.
Dr wrote of these attempts by men to forbid God such license in the Introduction to the Appendices in RHST. Look closely because it?s deliberately ambivalent as to whether Dr is referring to PFAL as ?Scripture? or the traditional Bible :
?If we believe that throughout the Scriptures we have the words of God
and not of man, many difficulties will disappear. We must allow the
Divine Author the rights and privileges claimed and operated by every
human author?that He may quote, adapt, or repeat in varied forms His
own previously written or spoken words. God could have used other
forms had He chosen to do so, but it has pleased Him to repeat His own
word or words, introducing them in different contexts, with new applica-
tions and connotations. Thus it obligates us to study the context, the para-
graph, and the section where the same word appears, and where it was
used previously, to see if it is used in a different sense or not.?
If you simply admit that there are SOME unknowns, difficulties, and uncertainties in the hand-me-down scriptures (and your Wide Margin notes will testify to this), then you may allow yourself to try on for fit a solution where God makes a major move in 1942 to correct what scholars have not been able to correct. If you are able to temporarily don this set of beliefs, and do as Dr suggests and master PFAL, then many difficulties will disappear.
If we believe that throughout the PFAL writings we have the words of God and not of man, many difficulties will disappear.
.
.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 04, 2003 at 18:31.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 04, 2003 at 18:32.]
Please wake up. Steve and Dizzy are trying to help you. Please listen to them and read their posts. I can tell by your answers that you are not listening to them. For example, Steve told you clearly in his last post that you have a religious demonic spirit of pride and arrogance that is affecting your judgement and ability to think rationally. I agree with Steve. It is time to put off your religious pride and arrogance in the name of Jesus Christ. In the first place your religious rationale is not going to work here. There are to many people here that are very wise to your brand of religious idolatry. Some are actually spending the time to try to help you in God's love. Please wake up.
To all those reading this thread. Mike needs prayer. I don't know if he wants healing, but he still needs prayer. Mike if you are reading this I command in the name of Jesus Christ that any religious spirit of pride and arrogance be lifted from your mind and way of thinking. That you can think rationally and with great meekness towards Jesus Christ the Son and God his Father. That you can truly interact with love and humility towards your brothers and sisters in Christ and to all people regardless of what they believe about God, the bible or religion in general. This is my public prayer for Mike and confession of faith.
I am thinking of you out of love and concern. I have no fear. Your subject matter is a broken cistern and full of idolatry.
Well, at least I prayed for you. If you don't want to believe my prayer that is your choice. The name of Jesus Christ is not a phony command. And I want to be very honest with you. This is what I believe about you. That you need deliverance. I say this without any anger towards you. Perhaps you don't want this deliverance. I have seen this all before.
Furthermore, the fact that you reject my simple prayer with such a hard hearted attitude speaks volumes about you. If someone were to pray for me for greater humility and meekness I would thank them. Instead you curse me.
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on June 04, 2003 at 20:26.]
Mike - You wrote, "We can meet on the phone or in person anytime."
No, Mike, we will keep our discussion public, where everyone can witness what transpires.
You also wrote, "I am not a devil nor do I have one."
Your description of the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit fits demonic influence to a "T". And remember, Mike, you yourself wrote, "You're definitely onto something. Remember that the Pentecost stuff is only a token."
Yes, but a token of what? The Word of God says it's a token of the spirit of resurrection life in the age to come, not a token of "advanced Christ formed within" demonic influence.
Mike wrote, "If you are able to temporarily don this set of beliefs, and do as Dr suggests and master PFAL, then many difficulties will disappear."
If you are able to temporarily don this set of beliefs, and do as "Dr" suggests and "master" PFAL, then you too can open your mind up to "advanced Christ formed within" demons, who will gladly whisper sweet nothings in you ear, and tickle your fancies of becoming super-Christians... better yet, even, Christ himself! Not only will you will be blinded to many difficulties, you'll also be blinded to the light of the glorious gospel of Christ.
Praise God for His mercy and goodness! Praise God for His glory and grace!
I have no hatred to people here, I only hate the error that's torn up our family.
I?ve gone over all of your objections to my doctrine for 5 years before posting here.
I simply maintain to you folks that you never really finished taking the class. You got a skewed version of it, and missed mountains of truth. I?ll just keep posting the evidence. Soon I?ll be posting the Natural/Spiritual page references and some samples of the hotter texts.
It?s because I love you folks and want to see you all healed and SOON that I post these things we ALL missed. I simply offer it as an alternative healing method to the Grease Spot managerie of methods.
My method is simple: Master PFAL in it?s pure book form to straighten out all the many twisted TVTs you all are stuck in, broken cicterns that can hold no water.
The objections to my method are myriad, and require much time and writing to unravel. Fine, I can discuss lots of details as I post my data.
What I won?t tolerate is TWIish bully tactics like Steve and Mark recently displayed, with ds discernment as the ultimate weapon.
I faced down lots of clergy and Corps henchmen who were so logic starved they had to resort to intimidation techniques like you guys just tried on me. Save it. I?ve been through those hysterics many times.
Not only are you vying for the Craig Clone Awards, but you?ve all resorted to the EXACT same techniques trinitarians would resort to on me in the 1970?s, when I?d come up with verses they could answer. You're pitiful!
Since the early 70?s I?ve been through the being prayed for AT LEAST 20 time! Devil spirits diagnosed 10 times.
Pretty soon one of you spiritual cowboys are going to do a razzle dazzle Six Gun twirling act: the BORN OF THE WRONG SEED act!
Who will be the first to try THAT one? You amateurs dismay me. Go start your own threads with your own solutions. I?ll just continue posting my solutions here. I?ve got a backlog of HUNDREDS of posts from all you folks to still answer, so feel free to just go your own way, and I?ll continue posting my way here.
If I have to I?ll resort to my James Bond hi tech Dodge Gadgetry keeping one step ahead of your comic book spiritual attacks. Chick Tracts could use a few writers like you.
****************************
Now where WAS I before the exorcists started jumping up and down and burning incense?
Oh yeah, we were discussing if my message is contradicting what Dr said.
My contention is that you all have a dim memory of what Dr said,
and a deficient memory of EXACTLY what Dr said.
Just to refresh those stagnant memories,
lets look at something we all once not only believed,
but dedicated our lives to.
These are all the three appearances of I Thess 2:13 in the PFAL class.
In all three Dr makes a link between the his own authority to teach the Word,
and Paul's authority to teach the Word as mentioned in I Thess 2:13.
Plus, in two of these three links between Dr's authority and Paul's authority, the PFAL class is specifically mentioned as Dr's Paul-like teaching. These quotes are from the film class soundtrack:
**********************************************
Session 12
And, in my classes on Power For Abundant Living, nobody ever gets missed, because, if you're in this class, you've heard the Word, you've believed God's Word, God is always faithful. And nobody ever misses, if you'll do exactly what I tell you to do, right down to the minute detail.
It's like, in I Thessalonians, chapter 2, verse 13. Remember where the Apostle Paul said:
"I thank my God, that, when you received the Word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of man, but as it is in truth, the Word of God."
Now, if you'll be as honest with God as that Word of God says, you too can walk into the greatness of the manifestation of the power of God.
But, if you think this is just V.P. Wierwille talking, you'll never get it.
But if you know that what I am saying -- it's V.P. Wierwille saying it, but these are words which the Holy Ghost has spoken and is utilizing and speaking to you through my ministry and my life, then you too will manifest forth the greatness of the power of God.
You see very few of us have gone back to the Word, we have gone back to men. And we have said well what did Kant say, what did Plato say, what did Aristotle say, what did this theologian say, what did this man say, what did this other person say? Class, back to the Word! The Word and nothing but the Word! For it's this Word which is the Will of God! That's right, bless your heart.
Look at I Thessalonians, I Thessalonians chapter two; Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians; the same trouble tonight I had before, this India paper is just a little to thin to find all these scriptures so quickly; but they're in here.
I Thessalonians 2:13 listen to this:
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,...
You see they received the Word of God which they heard of Paul it was Paul's vocabulary but what he was speaking was God's Word.
But to the senses ears the people could have said, "well that's Paul talking, that's just Paul, yeah that's just Paul."
Like they say, "oh, that's just Dr. Wierwille, yeah..." I've heard that, no, no, no.
I Thessalonians 2:13:
...thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually [which effectually] worketh also in you that [do one thing--go to church every Sunday morning, sit in the front pew and shout glory hallelujah, believe in all the social action programs; no a thousand times no. Works effectually in those who do one thing. What?] believe [believe].
Let me show you something from I Thessalonians two thirteen, listen to this:
I Thessalonians 2:13:
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
You know, you may have the Word of God, you may know the Word of God but it does not work effectually in people. It does not work effectively with power until we do one thing. Believe. You believe that Word and lo and behold you speak that Word and it produces the same results today that it has produced at any time in the history of civilization since that Word has been given.
You know, the Bible says that we are to abide in the Word. We are to abide in the Word and we're to let this Word abide in you. To the end that we abide in the Word this Word takes the Master's place in our lives through our renewed mind and then it becomes our vocabulary but it is God's Word. We speak, this is our vocabulary, we speak the Word but as we speak the Word it is God's Word. "I thank my God that when ye received the Word which ye heard of us ye received it not as the word of man," sounds like it, "but as the Word of God which worketh effectually in those that believe."
This Word of God cannot be broken, that's right. Just cannot be broken, not one iota of it can be broken, for what God promised He is not only able but willing to perform and that whole Word fits like a hand in a glove.
You see it is this Word of God that really thrills a man. In Luke chapter twenty-four. Matthew, Mark, Luke, let me just check this with you. Luke twenty-four listen to verse thirty-two:
Luke 24:32:
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
This was speaking about Jesus on the road to Emmaus after the resurrection as he spoke to these men. He opened unto them the scriptures. You see how their hearts thrilled, how their hearts burned within them because he opened to them the scriptures.
I've never seen a man or a woman or a boy or a girl in these classes on Power for Abundant Living whose soul just has not thrilled with an effervescence and with an abundance and with a glow when this Word of God started to unfold, started to fit like a hand in a glove. It made sense and how their hearts burned within them. How they thrilled at the greatness of God's Word!
I mentioned a few times I?ve found about 90 ?Thus saith the Lord statements? of Dr?s that he put into the record. I count this set of passages as three. There?s 85 to go. Most are pretty subtle. Either we never heard them, or we gradually got talked out of them. We all heard these words many times.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 05, 2003 at 2:32.]
With all due respect, I think a few here are beginning to sound rather off-the-wall and frayed around the edges on this thread...except for maybe Garth, who's kept his sense of humor.
:)-->
Now it's come down to Mike having a "demon" (!?)
I don't particularly care nor agree with many if any of Mike's ideas or opinions, or of his approach/zeal/stubbornness - no more than I agree with others or they with me here - but such is life in America, and in an exway forum.
Yet if it be assumed that Mike is spinning his brain in Wierwillian delusions (and of his interpretations thereof), then are you (we) really being any further away from the orbit of Wierwille with this demon stuff?
Step back and take a breather guys. You're much better than this, I think.
Mike - I can only reiterate the idea I offered earlier several pages back - out of respect to others and to yourself - and in view of the considerable volume and length of writing you pour into these posts - you should seriously consider starting your own website. Perhaps you might be able to organize and present your views and ideas more comprehensively than what you're attempting here.
Danny
[This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on June 05, 2003 at 3:02.]
Doing an "exorcism" on-line seems a bit much, and I think Mike's reaction would be the same (indignation) whether the diagnosis was correct or not, so his rejection of that "solution" doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
Ad hominem attacks are unneccessary and add nothing to the discussion, nor do accusations of possession or mental illness. On the other hand, some of the assumptions and allegations from Mike's side could be done without also.
That all being said, Steve's and Mark's rebuttals of Mike's positions and assertions are the best that I've seen in a while. They use Mike's own words, as well as Wierwille's words, (which Mike reveres) to make their points. Instead of attacking Mike's premise with logic, which many of us have tried in the past, Mark and Steve have been utilizing Mike's premise to attack his conclusions. It's all very logical.
No surprise that Mike isn't buying it though.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
I'm for a breather. As for a lone website, that would miss my point. I see HERE a lack of awareness of many details of what happened to us all. I want to address that lack where it occurs. THIS is where PFAL grads congregate to talk. If I have to I'd do it, but this is where my family of grads meets and talks. There's no other place like this.
Thanks Oakspear,
Good logic. I don't mind challenges to what I say. I wish I had the time to deal with all of them. One at a time. But not to get bogged down and miss data posting time.
be a "lone" one, - nor would it be necessary to abandon forums -because there are a number of ways you could make known your site, such as providing a link to it beneath your screen name, along with any topics.
If you haven't worked on webpages before, it's quite easy and not difficult at all, esp. if you have Word or Wordperfect.
And you can add to it each week. And it's a lot of fun. If you decide to give it a go, you may wonder why you hadn't done it much sooner.
I don't even believe a person can be born of the wrong seed. I think that is one of the errors in Wierwillian theology so that argument won't work with me. I have taken a fresh look at a lot of scriptures over the years since leaving TWI and it has been very helpful.
Really Mike, I don't think you are purposely evil. However, it is obvious that you rarely listen to anyone on this thread even though many people have brought in many good points both with scripture and with logical reasoning. All this, at least to my eyes, does not seem to have helped you. What are we on the 19th page of this and we are still on square one. Thus at least Steve and I think it is a demonic spirit that has you in your religious rut and is hindering you from seeing the scriptural help and understanding that many people here have offered you. I don't say this out of malice. And if you want help all you need to do is pray to God for deliverance in the name of Jesus his Son.
I really have no new answers for you other than what I and others have already stated. Apparently, you don't even think you have a problem that others have seen. People here have been very patient with you, yet you continue in your religious ways. If we did not care and this includes Steve and I, we would not say anything to you at all. However, we really do care and are trying to help you, but you seem to have rejected it all. Your choice. I am not one to try to convince someone of something against their will.
Dittos to what Mark said, except I reserve the right to continue backing your advanced Christ formed within "spirit" into any corner appropriate.
My experiences with demons and their influence came long before my exposure to PFAL. They came because I was trying to explore the astral plane to find the akashic record. God delivered me when I reached the end of my rope and, out of desperation, called on the name of the Lord. When I did that, I was alone, not involved *any* kind of active Christianity.
You yourself described the advanced Christ formed within "spirit", Mike. All I did was call a spade a spade.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - I notice you've derailed your own thread again. If you had spent the time you've been gassing about Dr's (a lie in itself) authority and Paul's authority on winnowing your 80 or so supporting passages, you might have found at least one to post by now.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
82
119
656
81
Popular Days
Jun 15
86
Jul 3
73
Jul 12
50
Mar 31
49
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 82 posts
mj412 119 posts
Mike 656 posts
Steve Lortz 81 posts
Popular Days
Jun 15 2003
86 posts
Jul 3 2003
73 posts
Jul 12 2003
50 posts
Mar 31 2003
49 posts
Popular Posts
Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
dizzydog
Mike,
You will notice I edited my post after I found the phrase perfectly renewed mind in the PFAL book.
Please read my edited post for my comment on the renewed mind.
As far as your statement regarding the translations of the bible:
You wrote -
?In the film class (segment 16, page 127 in the book) Dr. says:
"No translation, no translation, and I want you to listen
very carefully; for no translation, and by the way that's
all we have today at best are translations. No translation
may properly be called The Word Of God... ..no translation!"
Then a minute later he repeats:
"Now I said that no translation, no translation, let alone
a version, no translation may properly be called The Word
Of God..."
Then several minutes later he hits it again:
"And in this class on Power For Abundant Living, when I
refer to The Word Of God I may hold the King James Version
or I may hold some other version and point to it; I do not
mean that version. I mean that Word of God which was
originally given when holy men of God spake as they were
moved by the Holy Spirit."
The paragraph I posted earlier was the next paragraph after this statement. Since you present this as proof of your assertions I will let VPW respond to you.
Page 128 -
"Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word - which I am confident we can - then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord."
You have repeatedly confused my devotion to the scriptures as being a devotion to KJV. I have NEVER asserted such a thing.
In PFAL VPW states that 85-90% of the Word of God can be interpreted in the verse from Genesis to Revelation. You have taken one thing he has said and used it as an excuse to discount the scriptures (versions, translations et al?) as being "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants ?. Never mind the other two ways we have of interpreting the scriptures, in the context and where it has been used before.
Even if we don?t have 100% of the original Word of God using VPW?s own statistics we could still have at least 90-95% of it right within the versions you have slandered. 90-95% is not unreliable nor is it tattered, Mike.
And yet VPW himself says that in order to get the Word OUT of any translation or version we have to study those translations and versions. You state the translations and versions are "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants?, VPW writes that God?s Word is still in those documents IF we study them. You can?t take something OUT if it is not IN there to begin with. Remember, ?Search the scriptures??
I am going to keep reminding you what you have said because I never heard or read VPW assert that the scriptures we have in any translation were "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants?. If he ever heard someone make such a statement he would have blown a gasket. These are your words no one else?s. If PFAL is the Word of God as you have asserted then why not just speak the Word? Why add your own words to it? Why make statements that are not supportable? You are either lazy or propounding an agenda.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
dizzydog,
If time were more abundant I?d love to get into all the points you made. Some will have to wait, though. For the few I can deal with this morning, I will have to resort to pasting in pre-written material.
One point is this: there is a difference between OBTAINING God?s Word and RIGHTLY DIVIDING it.
You wrote: ?In PFAL VPW states that 85-90% of the Word of God can be interpreted in the verse from Genesis to Revelation.?
If I had the time now I?d find the exact quote. Once we HAVE the Word, we can THEN see that it interprets itself 85-90% of the time. But, what about where we DON?T have the Word. There?s no guarantee that it all survived the first century reprobate copyists and the second century persecutions, nor a guarantee that any lost or distorted portions would get derived or straightened out by working the portions that did get handed down relatively intact.
Dr did sometimes talk about the non-authoritativeness of the existing manuscripts, and he even occasionally mentioned that academic collection of fragments is neither authoritative nor complete.
Here is a section of a recent e-mail with a friend.
*************
>Having served at HQ and as a region leader, and having participated in
>numerous research sessions, a statement like "someday we'll find a text that
>substantiates this" was VERY rare, and always in the context of the Word
>interpreting itself, not Dr W prophesying without an obvious solid biblical
>basis. Do you have any of these statements that would show otherwise?
>
Yes. But it requires MASTERING the material, not just being familiar with it, before these page references will have the authority of proof in your eyes.
It wasn't all THAT rare Dr said those kind of things. I was NEVER in a research meeting with Dr, yet I heard statements like "someday we'll find a text" several times, even on SNS tapes. I think he was dropping hints for now, when we are supposed to be mastering the books. He was always dropping hints like "I didn't write the book" that could easily be associated with his books as the Bible.
For him to even ONCE say "someday we'll find a text" should have arrested the attention of all those around him. I remember being embarrassed or angry when I heard him say it the several times I did. I thought there was something wrong. It never fit for me. Now it does.
I have MANY, many statements in print and on tape that will fit into this picture of WHY we should be mastering the PFAL writings. Regardless if I succeed in proving to you this reason WHY we should master the PFAL writings, it's STILL THE CASE that Dr told us all to do it, and we all disobeyed.
****************
Back to you, diz.
You see, there is NO authoritative texts in Greek or Aramaic. Even if there were, there?s still no official authoritative Greek scholar (or team) that?ll give us the last word on what was written. It?s all guesswork, often right, but wrong in unknown places, and incomplete in other unknown places.
Dr did teach us to work our 5-senses on what IS available. The KJV is a VERY good place to start. It?s approximate, and Dr tells us that often, and to change it in places, or ?scratch out? something that crept in. He did often tell us that this approximation was pretty good at times. We ALL knew the KJV was far from authoritative. Some of us knew that the ancient manuscripts were devoid of authority. It wasn?t talked about much.
.
**************
Here?s another area where Dr indicated that the existing manuscripts were not good enough for those who wanted to go all the way with God. This is a paste from a previous post
It's obvious that I laid some pretty incredible ideas on you. These
things will become clearer as we obey Dr's final instructions and get down
to mastering those collateral books that came with the class. And who are
we to refuse Dr's dying last words to us?
The grand summary of all that I've attempted to communicate to you is
that those PFAL books are much bigger than we had ever dreamed, MUCH MUCH
bigger! They really are directly from God and far surpass what the King
James translation committee were able to come up with. That mere version,
and all versions are NOT really the Bible.
Versions can be close in some places, far in other places. Without PFAL,
the KJV and all man-made versions are powerless and flawed. Counterfeits
will, of necessity, contain some positive truths, but when the power is most
needed it will not be found. PFAL is God's way of making limp, opinionated
versions of the Bible come to life.
This same recognition of the man-made status of all versions applies to
translations as well, and even to the existing ancient manuscripts.
Remember that those manuscripts are not really copies of the originals,
they're mis-copies. They were made and preserved mostly by a reprobate
church, having all forsaken Paul, and they were all made under very extreme
pressures of persecution. The reason for the "critical" texts is to sort
through the massive differences in all the ancient manuscripts.
Even if we had THE original manuscripts, we'd still be subject to the
massive satanic influences residing in the teachers and schools of the
ancient languages which we'd depend on. Add to that dilemma all the devilish
evolution of languages and idioms and cultual, plus the overwhelming
religious bias we are all born into.
So when Dr said in "The Way Living In Love" page 179 (right after the
page on the 1942 promise), that the Word is buried, he meant that the real
Bible is NOT available outside that audible promise from God. He uses that
word "buried" there THRICE. Other phrases in that section include phrases
like "terrific need" and "so far from hearing" and "no one around to teach."
It's believing an illusion to think that we have a choice between the
Bible and PFAL. We simply don't have the Bible, only counterfeits. Just
because a traditionally respected book has the label "Bible" on the outside,
that doesn't change the pickles on the inside. And we really are in a
pickle ourselves if we are immersed in existing man-made versions of the
Bible without prior PFAL mastery.
************************
Here?s the text of those cited pages in
?The Way ... Living In Love?
by Elena Whiteside,
with my ALL CAPS
pp. 178-181
"Then Rosalind left. It was the fall of the year. Kids were back in school already. It must have been September. I was sitting in my office, an old dentist's office just around the corner from the church where I served ? I'll show you that too when we get there. I bet you it's still there, though I haven't been back here since I left.
?I was praying. And I told Father that He could have the whole thing, unless there were REAL GENUINE ANSWERS THAT I WOULDN'T EVER HAVE TO BACK UP ON.
"And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. HE SAID HE WOULD TEACH ME THE WORD AS IT HAD NOT BEEN KNOWN SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY IF I WOULD TEACH IT TO OTHERS.
"Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me." He shakes his head slowly smiling. "It's just too fantastic. People won't believe it. But He spoke to me just as plainly as I'm talking now to you.
"But really, why is it so strange? When you think about it, you see in the Bible that all through the ages God talked to people. God talked to Moses, to all the prophets. God talked to Paul. All through the centuries, God has talked to people in times of great need. And that's what we have today ? a terrific need. People are just so far from hearing and believing the Word of God.
?You don't get it in the theological schools. The Word is BURIED, just like it was in the time of Jeremiah. Oh, they had their priests, their higher echelons, their temples, their rituals. It all looked so religious, you know. But the Word of God was BURIED. Oh, they were teaching the people something -- they called it the Word of God maybe, but the Word was BURIED. God spoke directly to Jeremiah.
"The Word is BURIED today. If there's no one around to teach it, God has to teach it Himself. You see, I am a product of my times. God knew me before the foundations of the world, just like He knew you and everyone else. We were all in God's foreknowledge from the beginnings.
?God knew I would believe His Word. And every day I am more and more deeply convinced of this ministry which teaches people the accuracy and integrity of God's Word. Without this ministry the world would be in far greater spiritual darkness about His Word. There would be less light in the world. Where else but in this ministry do you find the Word of God so living and real? This is truly a time of terrific need." Doctor nods his head abruptly, as if to punctuate his urgency.
"Well, I couldn't believe that God talked to me right then. You see, God's right here. He always has been here. He is still here. And God is willing and able to reveal everything to anyone or everyone. But we are just unable to receive it. We don?t believe it. It's like, you can't pour a gallon of water in a teacup. It's just not big enough to receive it, take it all in. You have to make the cup bigger first. You build up the container, and then you fill it little by little. He fills us a little bit at a time as we can take it. He knows how much we can take because God knows everything. God doesn't waste His revelation on people who cannot believe it.
"Paul had to be tremendously built up to believe ?receive ? the mystery that had been hidden since before the foundations of the world. John, too, had to be built up to receive the revelation set forth in the book of Revelation. It's taken many years and a lot of trips and searching to build my believing to this point also. But God knows our hearts.
?Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by the next day where I said to myself ? maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I really know, so that I can believe.'
***************************
The sign we have comes from our obedience to master the books we were told to master.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Mike,
"The sign we have comes from our obedience to master the books we were told to master."
Uhh, I thought that the sign was the snow on the gas pumps.
-->
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Garth,
It's from mastering the materials that WE get OUR proof.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Oh, Mike, you don't really think he was talking about the PFAL BOOK when he said, "I didn't write the book," do you? And that he was hinting that the texts we are going to "find" were HIS? Mike, dude, you gotta get out more.
I was in on Corps meetings when he said, "someday we'll find a text," and it was always about some minor detail of Biblical accuracy. (I'd agree with your "region leader friend" on that one.) And he'd say, "I didn't write the book" right after quoting a passage in the KJV that proved the point he was making.
Mike, you gave me a chuckle today on that one. Thanks for the laugh. Now, go stake your life on something important.
shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dizzydog
As far as finding the exact quote look on pages 145-148. You will find I quoted it quite accurately.
Your long prose is not convincing.
I can still show someone from the scriptures how to become born again, manifest that Holy Spirit, understand the hope and all of the things that go along with it. Just as VPW did in PFAL. "The Scriptures tell us the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, and about God: this is doctrine - it is right believing."
The "versions" we have still get the job done and still provides for man a way to be reconciled to God. Believe it or not I have not thrown the baby out with the bathwater and have taken VPW's encouragement very seriously.
You have conveniently ignored what VPW said on page 128 of PFAL.
"To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself."
You are trying to back peddle away from this statement by saying now that "Dr did sometimes talk about the non-authoritativeness of the existing manuscripts, and he even occasionally mentioned that academic collection of fragments is neither authoritative nor complete." You don't have the quote, you cannot prove he ever said this so until you do don't assert this is what he thought. He may have said things like this but what he said in PFAL is that "To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses."
I have shown you what was written in PFAL and you have ignored it, and attempted to muddle the statement by throwing in a long email you had with someone else.
You wrote:
"He was always dropping hints like "I didn't write the book" that could easily be associated with his books as the Bible."
Are you assuming this or do you know this is what he meant when he said it? If you don't know then don't give your assumptions. If it's God's Word he will say what he means and mean what he says.
OK so we need to master those books. This does not make the case that the scriptures we have no longer contain the Word of God.
Speak the Word Mike not your ideas or feelings.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Everyone - I have to admit, I haven't paid as much attention to what Mike has written as I should have. This morning, I was reading through things he has posted concerning the "Christ formed in you/perfectly renewed mind" business, and I came across this beaut of a passage (April 28, 2003, 19:48, about half-way down page 13 of this thread).
**********
"I describe this topic as 'advanced' for a few reasons. One is that this 'Christ' within (a la Gal. 4:19) is NOT the same as the familiar foundational topic 'Christ in you the hope of glory.' The Col. 1:25 type of 'Christ in' is pneuma hagion, holy spirit, the gift that does not affect the mind, because this 'Christ in' is in the spirit catagory, while the mind is in the soul catagory.
"'Christ in you the hope of glory' is a free gift requiring believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead. Prior to this believing, people received this gift with a nautili [sic - Steve] man's mind. After this believing it's STILL a natural realm oriented mind. This Christ is created in a man.
"Christ FORMED within the mind is something spiritual happening in the natural realm. This Christ is formed and grows in a renewed mind according to the accuracy of God's Word. This Christ formed within is the new man, the self like Jesus Christ, It's Jesus Christ like, it's a love self, a Jesus Christ self, and it's found only in Jesus Christ men and women. This Christ is FORMED within a man's soul.
"This new man is advanced. He's God's REAL masterpiece. From the 5-senses perspective, receiving pneuma hagion where there was none before is a masterful stroke of grace on God's part. But the 5-senses view cannot contain the advance Christ Formed. From God's perspective, the REAL masterpeice is this Christ formed in the soul. It's the NEW spirit mentioned in the 'Are You Limiting God?' chapter in the Blue Book.
"The advanced Christ formed within fits well (while Christ in the hope does not) with this phrase from Part I of 'The Love Way' posted last week: 'Your spirit must have the privilege of meditating in the Word.' This indicates that it's not 'pneuma hagion' Dr is talking about, but the 'spirit of God' that's born into the SOUL catagory, a different, later process from that created spirit we were first taught. This spirit is capable of 'meditating' in the Word, a mental process, not in the spiritual catagory of holy spirit. This advanced Christ formed within is the NEW man and the NEW spirit. It's one notch away from the spiritual body.
"Notice also from Part I of 'The Love Way' above that the REAL man is described as 'your spirit.' Again this can't be pneuma hagion, but something even bigger. This spirit is fed by the Word, not SIT."
**********
Well, what can we learn from this?
First, Mike's "advanced Christ formed within" is a spirit, but it isn't the gift of holy spirit. It never even claims that it IS holy.
Mike's "advanced Christ formed within" is "God's REAL masterpiece", not that puny Pentecost stuff. It makes one a NEW man, a self like Christ, Jesus Christ like, a love self, a Jesus Christ self. It will make one a superman, an ubermensch. One of the devil's first lies was "...ye shall be as gods." Now he's up-graded to "...ye shall be as Jesus Christ."
But it's not for everyone. Ordinary Christians don't have the "advanced Christ formed within." It's found only in "Jesus Christ men and women." Do you see how the spirit dwelling in Mike's mind inspires his noted air of condescension?
Christ in you, the hope of glory, is a free gift. Not so, the "advanced Christ formed within." Mike describes receiving this other spirit, "...it's not 'pneuma hagion'... but the 'spirit of God' that's born in the SOUL catagory, a different, later process from that created spirit we were first taught."
There is a process involved with receiving the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit that is different from, and comes later than does the process of receiving holy spirit. Mike doesn't give the specifics of this process, but he does write, "This Christ is formed and grows in a renewed mind." A person receives the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit by mentally committing himself to a particular way of thinking.
Mike wrote, "This spirit is capable of 'meditating' in the Word, a mental process not in the catagory of holy spirit... This spirit is fed by the Word, not SIT."
From some of Mike's postings on earlier threads, we know that his conception of "meditation" does not include the use of critical thinking. One gets comfortable and quiet and allows the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit to whisper its interpretations, bizarre interpretations with only tenuous connections to reality. It appears to have an aversion to holy spirit and speaking in tongues.
I believe Mike's "advanced Christ formed within" spirit is a demon or demons, exercising influence over those who accept their twisted interpretations.
But it's still not too late, Mike. If you turn back to God's truth through the Lord Jesus Christ, and stop playing around with those demons' perverse ideas, they will have to leave you, in the name of Jesus Christ!
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dizzydog
Mike you have made the case that the scriptures are not God's Word anymore.
Being bound by them is no longer an issue, you can say anything you like and based on what you believe God has worked in you, you will declare.
I believe what you are endeavoring to do here is the same thing the adversary has attempted to do since the fall of man. Steal, kill and destroy God's Word. Get people to doubt God's Word and subsequently believe it is no longer valid.
You have asserted PFAL is the replacement for the scriptures but PFAL itself declares the inportance of the scriptures. And you can twist it anyway you want but you cannot change what was written in the PFAL book about God's Word.
You write very LITTLE of the scriptures in your million word march through this forum. God has a reason for everything he says and he says it in a way that even a child need not err therein. Your posts are long, and have little scripture to back them up.
As a WOW surely you remember being trained to open the Word and provide chapter and verse for what you witnessed to people. It is a shame that this lesson has been lost on you here in this forum.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Steve,
You're definitely on to something.
Remember that the Pentecost stuff is only a token.
I also suggest more thorough reading. It's been obvious that you have been missing many details in my posts.
.
.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 04, 2003 at 18:34.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
dizzydog,
You can't go into a store or library and put "The Scriptures" into your hands, ESPECIALLY if you aren't fluent in Aramaic of Greek.
?The Scriptures,? as taught in PFAL, are an abstract entity. The originals have been lost. What we buy in stores or read in libraries or are taught in a class are APPROXIMATIONS. In some situations they will do us well, in others not.
I am very much bound to recognize an authority bigger than me: the PFAL writings. In every specific practical case, the same bounds you see in your ?authoritative? scriptures, I see in PFAL or the KJV verses printed within. I cannot say anything I want; I?m bound to what is printed in PFAL, which is in most cases identical to KJV Bibles.
I am no longer bound to any theologians or scholars! Hallelujah!
What I am endeavoring to do here is NOT the ?same thing the adversary has attempted to do since the fall of man. Steal, kill and destroy God's Word. Get people to doubt God's Word and subsequently believe it is no longer valid.?
Just the opposite, I?m saying that the small doubts that should have plagued every PFAL grad scholar (or near scholar) for decades are now gone.
God has not only given us an authoritative reissued set of His Words, but He ALSO has, from within these inspired PFAL writings, verified that the Biblical remnants we have had handed down to us WERE INDEED all along God?s perfect Word, before being cut up with men?s knives and thrown into the fire for 2000 years.
You seem bound to a theology that says God is forbidden to get anything in writing when it comes to these modern centuries. Your dogma cannot tolerate God?s intervention to reissue any or all of His Word. Your dogma will not allow God to inspire perfect writing, even to assist His children as they try to sort through which theologians or scholars they can trust THIS decade to be their necessary middlemen to the ancient scriptures.
Dr wrote of these attempts by men to forbid God such license in the Introduction to the Appendices in RHST. Look closely because it?s deliberately ambivalent as to whether Dr is referring to PFAL as ?Scripture? or the traditional Bible :
?If we believe that throughout the Scriptures we have the words of God
and not of man, many difficulties will disappear. We must allow the
Divine Author the rights and privileges claimed and operated by every
human author?that He may quote, adapt, or repeat in varied forms His
own previously written or spoken words. God could have used other
forms had He chosen to do so, but it has pleased Him to repeat His own
word or words, introducing them in different contexts, with new applica-
tions and connotations. Thus it obligates us to study the context, the para-
graph, and the section where the same word appears, and where it was
used previously, to see if it is used in a different sense or not.?
If you simply admit that there are SOME unknowns, difficulties, and uncertainties in the hand-me-down scriptures (and your Wide Margin notes will testify to this), then you may allow yourself to try on for fit a solution where God makes a major move in 1942 to correct what scholars have not been able to correct. If you are able to temporarily don this set of beliefs, and do as Dr suggests and master PFAL, then many difficulties will disappear.
If we believe that throughout the PFAL writings we have the words of God and not of man, many difficulties will disappear.
.
.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 04, 2003 at 18:31.]
[This message was edited by Mike on June 04, 2003 at 18:32.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Mike:
Please wake up. Steve and Dizzy are trying to help you. Please listen to them and read their posts. I can tell by your answers that you are not listening to them. For example, Steve told you clearly in his last post that you have a religious demonic spirit of pride and arrogance that is affecting your judgement and ability to think rationally. I agree with Steve. It is time to put off your religious pride and arrogance in the name of Jesus Christ. In the first place your religious rationale is not going to work here. There are to many people here that are very wise to your brand of religious idolatry. Some are actually spending the time to try to help you in God's love. Please wake up.
To all those reading this thread. Mike needs prayer. I don't know if he wants healing, but he still needs prayer. Mike if you are reading this I command in the name of Jesus Christ that any religious spirit of pride and arrogance be lifted from your mind and way of thinking. That you can think rationally and with great meekness towards Jesus Christ the Son and God his Father. That you can truly interact with love and humility towards your brothers and sisters in Christ and to all people regardless of what they believe about God, the bible or religion in general. This is my public prayer for Mike and confession of faith.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
"If we believe that throughout the PFAL writings we have the words of God and not of man, many difficulties will disappear."
Yeah, difficulties like critical thinking. Ohh such a burden that must be!
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Mark or Steve,
We can meet on the phone or in person anytime.
I?m not a devil nor do I have one.
You are displaying fear. You?re afraid to do what Dr said to do.
Change the subject all you want. Attack the messenger all you want. The message is of God.
P.S. Mark, Don't .... with the name of Jesus Christ that way. Take your phoney command and shuve it~!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Mike:
I am thinking of you out of love and concern. I have no fear. Your subject matter is a broken cistern and full of idolatry.
Well, at least I prayed for you. If you don't want to believe my prayer that is your choice. The name of Jesus Christ is not a phony command. And I want to be very honest with you. This is what I believe about you. That you need deliverance. I say this without any anger towards you. Perhaps you don't want this deliverance. I have seen this all before.
Furthermore, the fact that you reject my simple prayer with such a hard hearted attitude speaks volumes about you. If someone were to pray for me for greater humility and meekness I would thank them. Instead you curse me.
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on June 04, 2003 at 20:26.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Mike - You wrote, "We can meet on the phone or in person anytime."
No, Mike, we will keep our discussion public, where everyone can witness what transpires.
You also wrote, "I am not a devil nor do I have one."
Your description of the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit fits demonic influence to a "T". And remember, Mike, you yourself wrote, "You're definitely onto something. Remember that the Pentecost stuff is only a token."
Yes, but a token of what? The Word of God says it's a token of the spirit of resurrection life in the age to come, not a token of "advanced Christ formed within" demonic influence.
Mike wrote, "If you are able to temporarily don this set of beliefs, and do as Dr suggests and master PFAL, then many difficulties will disappear."
If you are able to temporarily don this set of beliefs, and do as "Dr" suggests and "master" PFAL, then you too can open your mind up to "advanced Christ formed within" demons, who will gladly whisper sweet nothings in you ear, and tickle your fancies of becoming super-Christians... better yet, even, Christ himself! Not only will you will be blinded to many difficulties, you'll also be blinded to the light of the glorious gospel of Christ.
Praise God for His mercy and goodness! Praise God for His glory and grace!
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
With all due respect to Mark and Steve, I think Mike, you need psychiatric help as much as you need prayer.
Amen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I've heard this all before here.
I have no hatred to people here, I only hate the error that's torn up our family.
I?ve gone over all of your objections to my doctrine for 5 years before posting here.
I simply maintain to you folks that you never really finished taking the class. You got a skewed version of it, and missed mountains of truth. I?ll just keep posting the evidence. Soon I?ll be posting the Natural/Spiritual page references and some samples of the hotter texts.
It?s because I love you folks and want to see you all healed and SOON that I post these things we ALL missed. I simply offer it as an alternative healing method to the Grease Spot managerie of methods.
My method is simple: Master PFAL in it?s pure book form to straighten out all the many twisted TVTs you all are stuck in, broken cicterns that can hold no water.
The objections to my method are myriad, and require much time and writing to unravel. Fine, I can discuss lots of details as I post my data.
What I won?t tolerate is TWIish bully tactics like Steve and Mark recently displayed, with ds discernment as the ultimate weapon.
I faced down lots of clergy and Corps henchmen who were so logic starved they had to resort to intimidation techniques like you guys just tried on me. Save it. I?ve been through those hysterics many times.
Not only are you vying for the Craig Clone Awards, but you?ve all resorted to the EXACT same techniques trinitarians would resort to on me in the 1970?s, when I?d come up with verses they could answer. You're pitiful!
Since the early 70?s I?ve been through the being prayed for AT LEAST 20 time! Devil spirits diagnosed 10 times.
Pretty soon one of you spiritual cowboys are going to do a razzle dazzle Six Gun twirling act: the BORN OF THE WRONG SEED act!
Who will be the first to try THAT one? You amateurs dismay me. Go start your own threads with your own solutions. I?ll just continue posting my solutions here. I?ve got a backlog of HUNDREDS of posts from all you folks to still answer, so feel free to just go your own way, and I?ll continue posting my way here.
If I have to I?ll resort to my James Bond hi tech Dodge Gadgetry keeping one step ahead of your comic book spiritual attacks. Chick Tracts could use a few writers like you.
****************************
Now where WAS I before the exorcists started jumping up and down and burning incense?
Oh yeah, we were discussing if my message is contradicting what Dr said.
My contention is that you all have a dim memory of what Dr said,
and a deficient memory of EXACTLY what Dr said.
Just to refresh those stagnant memories,
lets look at something we all once not only believed,
but dedicated our lives to.
These are all the three appearances of I Thess 2:13 in the PFAL class.
In all three Dr makes a link between the his own authority to teach the Word,
and Paul's authority to teach the Word as mentioned in I Thess 2:13.
Plus, in two of these three links between Dr's authority and Paul's authority, the PFAL class is specifically mentioned as Dr's Paul-like teaching. These quotes are from the film class soundtrack:
**********************************************
Session 12
And, in my classes on Power For Abundant Living, nobody ever gets missed, because, if you're in this class, you've heard the Word, you've believed God's Word, God is always faithful. And nobody ever misses, if you'll do exactly what I tell you to do, right down to the minute detail.
It's like, in I Thessalonians, chapter 2, verse 13. Remember where the Apostle Paul said:
"I thank my God, that, when you received the Word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of man, but as it is in truth, the Word of God."
Now, if you'll be as honest with God as that Word of God says, you too can walk into the greatness of the manifestation of the power of God.
But, if you think this is just V.P. Wierwille talking, you'll never get it.
But if you know that what I am saying -- it's V.P. Wierwille saying it, but these are words which the Holy Ghost has spoken and is utilizing and speaking to you through my ministry and my life, then you too will manifest forth the greatness of the power of God.
****************************************************************
Segment. 11
You see very few of us have gone back to the Word, we have gone back to men. And we have said well what did Kant say, what did Plato say, what did Aristotle say, what did this theologian say, what did this man say, what did this other person say? Class, back to the Word! The Word and nothing but the Word! For it's this Word which is the Will of God! That's right, bless your heart.
Look at I Thessalonians, I Thessalonians chapter two; Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians; the same trouble tonight I had before, this India paper is just a little to thin to find all these scriptures so quickly; but they're in here.
I Thessalonians 2:13 listen to this:
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,...
You see they received the Word of God which they heard of Paul it was Paul's vocabulary but what he was speaking was God's Word.
But to the senses ears the people could have said, "well that's Paul talking, that's just Paul, yeah that's just Paul."
Like they say, "oh, that's just Dr. Wierwille, yeah..." I've heard that, no, no, no.
I Thessalonians 2:13:
...thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually [which effectually] worketh also in you that [do one thing--go to church every Sunday morning, sit in the front pew and shout glory hallelujah, believe in all the social action programs; no a thousand times no. Works effectually in those who do one thing. What?] believe [believe].
****************************************************************
Segment 13
Let me show you something from I Thessalonians two thirteen, listen to this:
I Thessalonians 2:13:
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
You know, you may have the Word of God, you may know the Word of God but it does not work effectually in people. It does not work effectively with power until we do one thing. Believe. You believe that Word and lo and behold you speak that Word and it produces the same results today that it has produced at any time in the history of civilization since that Word has been given.
You know, the Bible says that we are to abide in the Word. We are to abide in the Word and we're to let this Word abide in you. To the end that we abide in the Word this Word takes the Master's place in our lives through our renewed mind and then it becomes our vocabulary but it is God's Word. We speak, this is our vocabulary, we speak the Word but as we speak the Word it is God's Word. "I thank my God that when ye received the Word which ye heard of us ye received it not as the word of man," sounds like it, "but as the Word of God which worketh effectually in those that believe."
This Word of God cannot be broken, that's right. Just cannot be broken, not one iota of it can be broken, for what God promised He is not only able but willing to perform and that whole Word fits like a hand in a glove.
You see it is this Word of God that really thrills a man. In Luke chapter twenty-four. Matthew, Mark, Luke, let me just check this with you. Luke twenty-four listen to verse thirty-two:
Luke 24:32:
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
This was speaking about Jesus on the road to Emmaus after the resurrection as he spoke to these men. He opened unto them the scriptures. You see how their hearts thrilled, how their hearts burned within them because he opened to them the scriptures.
I've never seen a man or a woman or a boy or a girl in these classes on Power for Abundant Living whose soul just has not thrilled with an effervescence and with an abundance and with a glow when this Word of God started to unfold, started to fit like a hand in a glove. It made sense and how their hearts burned within them. How they thrilled at the greatness of God's Word!
************************************************************
This brings the count to about 5 or 6.
I mentioned a few times I?ve found about 90 ?Thus saith the Lord statements? of Dr?s that he put into the record. I count this set of passages as three. There?s 85 to go. Most are pretty subtle. Either we never heard them, or we gradually got talked out of them. We all heard these words many times.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 05, 2003 at 2:32.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
With all due respect, I think a few here are beginning to sound rather off-the-wall and frayed around the edges on this thread...except for maybe Garth, who's kept his sense of humor.
Now it's come down to Mike having a "demon" (!?)
I don't particularly care nor agree with many if any of Mike's ideas or opinions, or of his approach/zeal/stubbornness - no more than I agree with others or they with me here - but such is life in America, and in an exway forum.
Yet if it be assumed that Mike is spinning his brain in Wierwillian delusions (and of his interpretations thereof), then are you (we) really being any further away from the orbit of Wierwille with this demon stuff?
Step back and take a breather guys. You're much better than this, I think.
Mike - I can only reiterate the idea I offered earlier several pages back - out of respect to others and to yourself - and in view of the considerable volume and length of writing you pour into these posts - you should seriously consider starting your own website. Perhaps you might be able to organize and present your views and ideas more comprehensively than what you're attempting here.
Danny
[This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on June 05, 2003 at 3:02.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Doing an "exorcism" on-line seems a bit much, and I think Mike's reaction would be the same (indignation) whether the diagnosis was correct or not, so his rejection of that "solution" doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
Ad hominem attacks are unneccessary and add nothing to the discussion, nor do accusations of possession or mental illness. On the other hand, some of the assumptions and allegations from Mike's side could be done without also.
That all being said, Steve's and Mark's rebuttals of Mike's positions and assertions are the best that I've seen in a while. They use Mike's own words, as well as Wierwille's words, (which Mike reveres) to make their points. Instead of attacking Mike's premise with logic, which many of us have tried in the past, Mark and Steve have been utilizing Mike's premise to attack his conclusions. It's all very logical.
No surprise that Mike isn't buying it though.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Thanks Dan,
I'm for a breather. As for a lone website, that would miss my point. I see HERE a lack of awareness of many details of what happened to us all. I want to address that lack where it occurs. THIS is where PFAL grads congregate to talk. If I have to I'd do it, but this is where my family of grads meets and talks. There's no other place like this.
Thanks Oakspear,
Good logic. I don't mind challenges to what I say. I wish I had the time to deal with all of them. One at a time. But not to get bogged down and miss data posting time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
You're welcome, Mike.
If you started a website, it need hardly
be a "lone" one, - nor would it be necessary to abandon forums -because there are a number of ways you could make known your site, such as providing a link to it beneath your screen name, along with any topics.
If you haven't worked on webpages before, it's quite easy and not difficult at all, esp. if you have Word or Wordperfect.
And you can add to it each week. And it's a lot of fun. If you decide to give it a go, you may wonder why you hadn't done it much sooner.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
For those who missed it,
Mike accused others on this thread of being
"logic-starved". I thought that was too funny
to miss.
--------------
Mike,
I asked a simple question before.
You seemed to say earlier that you were going
to address Steve's question soon. I asked if
that was true, and if so, roughly, when.
About 24 hours later, you were attacking Steve's
character and accusing him of different things.
(I don't mean a few hours ago.) Looked like you
were now saying you WEREN'T going to answer his
question.
Please declare in plain English.
Will you be addressing Steve's question about
realms superceding each other?
If so, roughly when?
-----------------------------
BTW, Mike, for someone who claims to have
"no hatred to people here", you have felt very
free to toss around insults the entire time
you've been here.
Those who've disagreed with you, and presented
LOGICAL, REASONABLE positions, you've called
unfit reasearchers, you've all but called us
all charlatans, you've claimed, sight unseen,
that only YOU have done sufficient amounts of
research on a variety of subjects, mostly
vpw's writings, pfal, Bible research, and
surprise forays into various hard sciences.
You've basically said we're all unable to read,
and that all conclusions we've reached that do
NOT agree with yours are invalid. You've
lumped all disagreements with you, including
logical discourse, into the category of
"personal attacks". Perhaps some were-but so
were many of yours, and you feel yours were
perfectly justified.
It's so much easier to simply claim
"you can agree with me, or you can be WRONG!"
and claim all disagreements with you are parts
of some demonic conspiracy (go back a page-
you DID imply that, buried in a lengthy quote),
since it absolves you of all responsibility to
be intellectually honest.
Since you arrived, you've CLAIMED you examined
everything we object to for "5 years" before
even showing up here. That's a good trick-
especially since much of the evidence has come
out in the past YEAR-including right under your
nose. You closed your investigation before all
the facts were in.
However, your answers to all the objections
that have been raised have largely been
evasions.
Here's a summary of your responses to the
"rape" issue.
A) I don't believe he did it.
B) Whatever he did wasn't a big deal because
we needed him since he's "The Teacher",
and we can excuse him of indiscretions since
he was indispensable.
C) Any other guy would have done the same in
his position.
D) I refuse to let myself be distracted on this
issue.
Here's a summary of your responses to date on
the issue of whether or not vpw got special
revelation in 1942:
A) vpw said he did, so he did.
B) You can't prove he didn't.
C) The proof is that we got results from his
writings-that could not happen if he had
not been assigned the special God-dude.
D) The current proof he did is somewhere in
vpw's writings.
E) I refuse to let myself be sidetracked with
this issue.
On the subject of the pfal class being largely
a re-editing of BG Leonard's class, with
whole sections of JE Stiles' book on the Holy
Spirit and EW Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the
Bible" added, and NOT, as he stated so
unambigiously during that same class, the
result of countless hours between himself and
God with ONLY a Bible as reference, and only
AFTER taking all his other reference books
out to the "town gehenna, where the fires
never go out", and dumping them in the city
dump, where they could NOT be used as
references for the pfal class, you've been
singularly silent.
Whole sentences and paragraphs seem to have
been lifted, word-for-word, out of their works
and EW Kenyon's works. As far as you're
concerned, God dictated the entire thing to
vpw, with no regard to what the other authors
wrote.
Frankly, if I wanted to master pfal in it's
REALLY pure form, I'd do the best job by
memorizing BG Leonard's class, Stiles and
Bullinger's books, and rounding out with EW
Kenyon.
Also, I think it's about time you came clean
about the process of "mastering pfal" you
keep mentioning from time to time.
I asked you about it before, and didn't expect
a straight answer. I got a partial answer, which
surprised me. Your answer was that to reach
mastery, one step was to memorize the pfal
books. OK, not a shocker, but you actually
addressed my question, sort of.
(The real question was not how to get there,
but what the target-goal WAS, what can a
"Master of PFAL" expect?)
The other part of your answer slipped out when
you were addressing Schwaigers.
You took Schwaigers to task about actually
using other materials besides pfal as source
material. You said they should dismiss all
other source material. (Not for a short time,
as advocated in pfal, but for an indefinite
period.)
So, putting the 2 halves together, here's what
the picture looks like.
A person seeking "mastery of PFAL" must
memorize vpw's PFAL books. They must read them
backwards and forwards, and be able to recite
them whole from memory, able to quote them
page-by-page on any subject they address.
A person seeking "mastery of PFAL" must
absolutely eliminate all other sources of input
other than the PFAL books. NO other Christian
writer is to be trusted, no Bible is to ever
be cited-or sighted.
Once those 2 tasks have been accomplished, the
acolyte has now reached a state where he has
discarded ALL information that could possibly
interfere with total devotion to PFAL, and
possibly discredit it at any point. Having now
ruthlessly eliminated any contradicting data,
the acolyte is now ready to dogmatically assert
that PFAL is the be-all and end-all of things.
It's certainly the be-all and end-all of his
life, since he's discarded everything else.
To those of us glad to be thinking for
ourselves, such a process seems remarkably
similar to brainwashing, and indoctrination
into a cult.
But, Mike, go ahead.
If I've misrepresented the process to
"mastering PFAL", please clarify EXACTLY what
I said wrong about it.
Does it NOT involve wholesale memorization?
(That's essentially the answer you gave me
previously.)
Does it NOT involve discarding and dismissing
any and all materials not directly relating to
PFAL, especially anything refuting it?
(That's essentially the answer you gave
Schwaigers before.)
Go ahead-declare it plainly.
Is this exactly what you meant to say? If not,
EXACTLY what's the difference?
No, don't tell me, let me guess...
"You've misrepresented me. You do not wish to
honestly present my side, and so you distort
it. I refuse to address your questions, since
they're intellectually dishonest. I have other
matters, more important, to address, and I'm
too busy. I refuse to discuss this in the
discussion forums I post in."
Well, Mike? Are you going to invoke the same
old cop-outs (see the previous paragraph), or
will you level with your readers?
Those are simple questions, and I KNOW you're
online. This won't require a lot of research,
just a statement of your position.
Are you going to answer, or run away?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Hello Mike:
I don't even believe a person can be born of the wrong seed. I think that is one of the errors in Wierwillian theology so that argument won't work with me. I have taken a fresh look at a lot of scriptures over the years since leaving TWI and it has been very helpful.
Really Mike, I don't think you are purposely evil. However, it is obvious that you rarely listen to anyone on this thread even though many people have brought in many good points both with scripture and with logical reasoning. All this, at least to my eyes, does not seem to have helped you. What are we on the 19th page of this and we are still on square one. Thus at least Steve and I think it is a demonic spirit that has you in your religious rut and is hindering you from seeing the scriptural help and understanding that many people here have offered you. I don't say this out of malice. And if you want help all you need to do is pray to God for deliverance in the name of Jesus his Son.
I really have no new answers for you other than what I and others have already stated. Apparently, you don't even think you have a problem that others have seen. People here have been very patient with you, yet you continue in your religious ways. If we did not care and this includes Steve and I, we would not say anything to you at all. However, we really do care and are trying to help you, but you seem to have rejected it all. Your choice. I am not one to try to convince someone of something against their will.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Dittos to what Mark said, except I reserve the right to continue backing your advanced Christ formed within "spirit" into any corner appropriate.
My experiences with demons and their influence came long before my exposure to PFAL. They came because I was trying to explore the astral plane to find the akashic record. God delivered me when I reached the end of my rope and, out of desperation, called on the name of the Lord. When I did that, I was alone, not involved *any* kind of active Christianity.
You yourself described the advanced Christ formed within "spirit", Mike. All I did was call a spade a spade.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - I notice you've derailed your own thread again. If you had spent the time you've been gassing about Dr's (a lie in itself) authority and Paul's authority on winnowing your 80 or so supporting passages, you might have found at least one to post by now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.