laleo - You wrote, "Figures of speech are pictures painted with words that create images in the reader's mind which bypass reason to evoke emotion."
That's one valid definition of figures, but it isn't the only one. There are rules of language. For instance, when giving a list with three or more elements, all of the elements are connected by commas, except for the next to the last and the final elements, which are connected with a conjunction.
"The woods were full of dangerous animals; lions, tigers and bears." (You have to imagine this sentence being read in the monotones of a middle-school lit class student.)
To write the sentence "The woods were full of dangerous animals; lions, tigers, bears." would be a violation of the rule, but it is the valid figure of speech "asyndeton" or "no ands". It doesn't draw attention to the danger presented by the particular animals, it just illustrates that there are animals and they are dangerous.
If we were to write "The woods were full of dangerous animals; lions and tigers and bears." this also would violate the rule (picture Judy Garland delivering this line in "The Wizard of Oz" Oh my!). However, this is a use of the figure "polysyndeton" or "many ands". It draws attention to each of the particular animals, and that animal's particular danger.
So, figures of speech can be apparent violations of the rules of grammar, even though they are actually valid uses. The author of the Word (God, if you are so inclined to believe) included figures to draw attention to the things HE wanted emphasized.
Now to the "laws of nature". Physics is a description of human experience stated in the language of mathematics. Newton didn't "discover" gravity. He invented (and/or developed, depending on your point of view) calculus, which he used to describe the "action at a distance" of gravity guiding the motions of the planets. The culture of the time found this very profitable, because calculus could also be used to describe the motion of cannonballs. A useful art indeed!
Newton's laws, which are called "classical" physics, were "deterministic". That is, there was an unbroken chain of cause and effect that linked every entity in the universe into an unalterable, predictable, lock-step dance, from the creation of the universe to its destruction. There was no room under Newtonian mechanics for God to influence anything after He initially set the universe in motion. This gave rise to the theology known as deism that viewed God as a clockmaker who doesn't interfere with the operation of His creation. The occurance of actual miracles became inconceivable. Eventually theologians could declare that "God is dead."
Yet, in the early- to mid-twentieth century, classical physics was displaced by quantum mechanics, which are *not* deterministic. Rather, the new "laws" are probabilistic. When a system changes its quantum state, there is *no* single pre-determined outcome. There is instead a set of possible outcomes with probabilities attached to each. Miracles are not "violations" of the laws of nature. They are instances where systems experience highly improbable outcomes to changes of state.
I believe God causes miracles, apparent violations to the "laws" of nature, in order to draw attention to things in our experience that He wants us to particularly observe; the same way He uses figures of speech, apparent "violations" to the rules of grammar, to draw our attention to particular things in His Word.
I no longer believe that miracles are the result of "spirit-realm laws" superceding "senses-realm laws".
I believe it does, as God said what He created was good and the devil is able to kill steal and destroy...
YET...
We say "that is an evil person" when talking about a person who murdered who did some horrible act yet we are not all capable of these behaviours and then sometimes we can for the "good " for example God ordered His people to kill the enemy etc.
so it has to be a thinking thing as you state Steve. murder is sin but not al murder is sin if you go by the bible standards ..
so it may not be the devil or a demon but it could be a demon ...
I think it is spiritual in a mind thinking areana as well ..
"THEY opened their mind to it"" remember that??
I was taught we can open our mind to thoughts that invite evil behaviour to generate within then once allowed to operate as a thinking part it is impossible to ask those thought to leave , (more come back to the house) if the person enjoys the behaviour and its rewards.
What we allow may be from birth , and I suppose a medical link can be noted as in the imbalance , again it may be an evil spirit but handed down from previous generations and not willing to leave a person alone geneticly it may have a huge physical stronghold.. ( like the bible states your fathers sins are handed down at times)
I think God can heal these situations but it would be very difficult for a person to recognize the problem without expert advice and care in the physical matters of what is wrong in the flesh , what the demon has destroyed etc.
Damage is done to unborn children by demons , damage can be done in the mental realm as well it does not always mean the person is possessed with a demon it to me means destruction has happened some where in the genetic makeup of that persons family and carried on down..
Behaviours are interesting to me, because we assume all folks can see that is wrong but we do not do we honestly not when it comes to Gods standards, and how many times does denial play along???
Something we tolerated growing up may be very much a knowing demon we can be comfortable with , such as alcohol or drug abuse, yet to others it is not tolerated and fought off and not to be tolerated in the least.
We often do not recognize demons untill another person can not put up with what we seem to be comfortable with and that is why the bible is needed to set the standard against evil and good.
Frankly I do think we would know the difference satan has a beautiful contenence that is appearing wonderful or in the least not a problem when we can not see the illusions he generates.
I have dealt with a demon and I did ask him to leave the person alone and it point blank told me he didnt have to leave, although I believe the power of God could have done it , it didnt leave because the person living with it enjoyed the rewards of its power.
this person knew he had a demon and had grown so accustomed to the behaviour it gnerated within him he was not sure he wanted to live without the pleasure . the demon knew it and stayed.
God warned me if I pushed the matter any further it would leave and be allowed to come back seven times worse for the person and those he was destroying with his power. I didnt play around .
I learned we do have alot of say when it comes to demons but they also have the ability to manipulate how people think. the choice is up to the person whether deliverence is possible and if they can not chose to live without its position in their life it must stay.
sometimes they cause so much physical damage or even mental damage the person is not healthy enough to chose to fight them .. Myexample was a christian man very very well read in the bible so I am not so sure education or instruction helps either.
But I know I can hold them back from hurting me ,to me this was a miricle.from God to me.
I have spoken to devil spirits and that one had a stronghold of power within my life , but he had the right to do what he was doing from the person who thought what he was doing was ok.. But not in My life because I didnt ok the behaviour , yet it meant getting rid of the person as well in this case.. I actualy saw this freak come and go and recognized it . I asked the person why he didnt want to have it leave and he sounded very righteous in his reason it should stay , I think this is the case with many demons and I think this is the reason we are asked to get together with one another and not forsake one another so when thoughts begin to creep in they can not get a foot hold to the point people become comfortable with them.
mj412 - It appears from what you write that you have drawn lessons from your experiences with demons similar to the lessons I've drawn from my own exposures. I found your post very interesting.
laleo - You wrote, "You mentioned that you found peace with Jesus Christ after reading Matthew 11:28-30. When I read those verses, I see a paradox..."
That's not exactly what happened. I wrote "When I renounced my commitment to the error I had been taught... The noose I had constructed of my own commitment was gone."
The deliverance came when I made the decision to turn away from the foolish commitments I had made, commitmnents to promoting error. I quoted Matthew 11:28-30 in my post to contrast the nature of laboring for the Lord with the nature of laboring for error.
When a person is drawn away from the Word of God by his own over desires, demons can dangle bait in front of that person. If the person goes for the lure, he doesn't actually get what he's going after, he gets his head caught in a figurative noose. The demons keep the bait just beyond reach. The harder the person strives to reach the bait, the tighter the noose becomes.
Laboring for error is working for diminishing returns. The harder you work, the more difficult it becomes. It brings frustration, disappointment and bitterness. It burns a person out. The thing around the persons neck is a noose, not a yoke.
Laboring for the Lord isn't always a cake-walk, but He never puts a task before us that we cannot do, if we pull together with Him. Yoking a pair of oxen together allows them both to pull, and actually get something done.
Mike - You wrote, "There are two arms of flesh I feel you still have too much respect for. One is the scholarly team that has attempted to reconstruct the original scriptures. The other is your own reasoning ability to work with the tools that scholarly team has provided."
The Word of God says that God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Rationalization of error is not the product of a sound mind. It may be the product of a deceiving mind. It may be the product of a deceived mind. But rationalization of error is *never* the product of a sound mind.
Something that I have realized after dumping my twi-tainted glasses when reading the bible...
quote:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. -Galations 5:19-21(KJV)
To me, this is setting a difference between what is of the flesh and what is of the spirit. To me, if these things were "of demons", would it not say as much?
CoolWaters - Good point! The Word of God contrasts walking according to the spirit with walking according to the flesh. Wierwille contrasted walking according to the spirit with walking according to the senses. We didn't learn *anything* about what the Word of God means when it uses the word "flesh". More very good food for thought. Thanks!
YW, Steve. I just remember vpw (and others) always saying, "You have to be possessed to commit murder." I believed it then...because it explained why my father would murder my mother...but now that I've grown up a little bit, I wonder if the OT folks were possessed when they were told to murder others. Things like that make me think...
I now understand your FOS/physics analogy, although it's been a long, long time since I've heard Wierwille's definition (or, more likely, Bullinger's) of figures of speech. While I won't take you to task on it, you may want to consider that if a writer (inspired by God or not) wishes to place emphasis on a point, repetition is a more effective tool than images. Consider how many times the Bible states that "the Lord our God is one Lord." No lofty language. No figures of speech. No grammatical hand stands. Just straightforward prose. Over and over again. And we get the point. Only God is God. It's a message that's repeated. For emphasis. Consider also that while Bullinger has a far keener mind than mine, and is much more skilled at identifying and categorizing figures of speech in the Bible, his conclusion (or maybe Wierwille's) for why they are there isn't absolute. Read a poem, any poem, and you'll probably conclude that figures of speech are employed to give focus to the message, to narrow the meaning. Not because those particular lines are more important, or even emphasized, just more dense, more textured, more vivid. While it might be interesting to follow the pattern of asyndeton and polysyndeton in the Bible (I forgot about those), what I wonder more is how much of the Bible is metaphor.
Regarding God, miracles, and physics, let me say first that I often envy people of faith, and admire those with religious convictions (Mike: Please note that I said convictions, not illusions). If I've understood your point, it is that miracles, which seem to defy natural law, operate within it. Just as God, angels, and demons operate within it. Now, here's where I'm unclear. Because you often refer to the Bible as "the Word of God" and seem to respect the authority of the Bible as a vehicle to transport God into human consciousness, I've made some assumptions about who you understand God to be. So correct me if I'm wrong.
The God that I was introduced to in The Way, the God I thought I knew, isn't the Universal Oneness, the Eternal Self, the Unity of Creation, the Brotherhood of Man, who exists in the physical world, maybe as some sort of energy field, who can be found in flowers and suffering and rainbows and meditation and children. He is a God with personality. He is loving, and angry, and jealous, and merciful, and powerful. He responds to human need. He hates injustice, hypocrisy, and arrogance. He won't tolerate disobedience. If you get into a battle of wills with him, you will surely lose, but He will admire you for the effort, and even reward you for putting up a fight. He likes spunk. If you don't like the outcomes in your life, you can plead your case to Him, and, if you've managed to persuade Him that you've been treated unfairly, He will rearrange the universe to set things right. He is interactive. He is present. Is this the God you say exists in the physical world? If so, where? Even Jesus, when he referred to the Kingdom of God, indicated that it originated in heaven. If heaven is actually on earth, why haven't scientists been able to detect it with, say, a seismograph of the spirit, like they've been able to detect even the smallest eruptions within the earth? If demons are limited in space and time, why is there no ruler to measure their height, their influence, their presence? It's not for lack of trying, Steve. Scientists have labored to detect God since the beginning of science, since the beginning of God. Lately, they've given up on finding Him, and are focusing their efforts on finding other clues to His presence ? by measuring the influence of prayer, by quantifying psychic phenomena, by chasing after miracles. So far, nothing. Scientists have been able to detect life, and energy, the origins of wind, the components of fire, and the effects of love. If this is the God you are describing ? the God of life and energy and wind and fire and love ? then, yes, I agree, that God (who is as impersonal as nature itself) is present and accounted for. But that isn?t the Christian God, as I understand it.
Take care, Steve. I?m glad to hear you and your wife have found some solutions to her illness. And I?m also glad you?ve had your faith to rely on, too.
that whole body soul and spirit thing got twisted in the way .
The big cram down my throat was the verse No condemation for those in the spirt of christ thing.
Well let me tell you the next EXCUSe was well the devil goes after the ones working for the Lord .
Mike has taken this position as well I think it is crap.
So you have the power of God now the devil will force you to do evil things , because your working for HIm but there is no condemation in Christ Jesus ..so do not worry or think about it
That is the philosphy of TWI!!!!
Think about it!!!
it truly was taught that way whenever issue were metioned.
I absolutly believe christians can and do get possessed by devil spirits and NOT because demons like to attack them anymore than anything eles but because they begin to play the first sin all over again and begin to knowing better than God for their life and lose the humility of Christ and the cross He asks us to bear as His heirs.
Satan plays hard ball and entices with beauty and huge power , listen he would have been out of business from the very beginning if he didnt have the ability to attract people. God has a plan to end this game but in the process I need to learn over and over what we are fighting for and if it is the "good" then I must learn to be "good" as God defines life to be.
Clearly satans and his demons have power over the flesh of man..
that is why I say it is a choice and not neccesarily one I would chose for my life this knowing Jesus as Lord.
A lord is one who tells me, it is a wonderful thing that He can consider us friends out of love but that does not in the least upsurp His authority on Earth or in the Kingdom some day. God had one begotten Son and it was Jesus and He EARNED it by dying . for us. truly that is a Love I am incapable of.
none of has died obeying God . We can feel good and die for someone but was it Gods will or our own doing ? A choice of our flesh? Jesus christ the man didnt want to die at all and begged for another as metioned earlier.
The bottom line of the story we have no chance of being the messiah due to the whole story of redemption etc.
the only reason I can trust Jesus is because He is the only one who has proven Himself to be right all the time forever.
the rest of us were born into sin, which brings up a nawing question about the God and the birth of Jesus christ NONE of us had a mom who claims to have had the experience Mary did in conceiving Jesus..
So we are sinner born into the world with a choice to accept Jesus as Lord or not, Jesus as Lord does not make us able to obey we need a ton of work and deliverence and the ability to learn right from wrong and CHOSE the correct way..
Using twi terms I look at it like this now
Body and soul are the same thing and God can and does work within these . An animal has only body yet God did use animals in the bible stories ok the soul is the same and God does use "natural man to further his causes . so does satan and demons .
spirit is itself a spirit can be a good spirit or a bad spirit but it is the same just a spirit that can come and go ...
God is Spirit , but we do not know God we know the Spirit of Jesus Christ who is one with God a place we can not be , a relationship that He is working out for us someday we can notnow "know God" or be his only beloved Son becase we still have alot of sin nature born into us. Jesus did alot for us by listening and doing more than any of us could ever.
but God created us so He will and does perform in the manner of loving us in the world we live in that is now dominated by satan and his workers. He (GOD THE FATHER) tells and loves Jesus Christ how it needs to be done and the Christ of mankind is in the spirit we recognize as we grow into a relationship of making Him Lord.
God wants all men to be saved.
Fleshy men are sinners as we all seem to be born of men not from God as Jesus was, this does not make us evil as twi liked to twist it. Just what we are as the bible states ..
Now a person can be full blown possessed , yet the "flesh has a particular life within that it must play out its work in , and a person can also have a spirit of Christ within and It will at times chill out the spirit of evil .
I have heard people say Christ cleans us from sin yeah sure He does, but never completly till the return of His body till then the flesh and possibly devil spirits that house there as well live until we die in the flesh.
All knees must bow to Jesus christ but who on this earth has the perfect will of God all the time?
no one it isnt possible today that is why it is called grace becase we play in all three areanas and hope so mightly for the end of the time when satan would not even be a factor and the flesh will be gone. that is our only hope..
People begin to think spirit are more than they are as steve states...
It is true the more I recognize jesus christ the more I get the chance to speak to evil spirits or just spirits not of God the Father.. some are just laughable to me now they are so common in our culture and allowed to run rampant.
sure they will leave while I am talking to them if I tell them to but without the power of God the "flesh looks rather bewildered without them and blames the confusion on me or illness or something.. lol
If a person has prayed for deliverence and is ready to submit to the Power of God it takes to "renew your mind to what He determines is good then by all means it happens they can and will leave for good I have seen it happen and let me say the Love that person has for me is never ending and I give the glory to God Almighty . I do not EVER consider Me to be the one casting out devils it is truly the power of God and the fact I have made Jesus my Lord that it can happen..
But mostly devil spiritis just play with my head hurt my feelings make me angry. I long for fellowship with other strong christians who have sound minds on a daily base because ds are freaking draining and exhausting to have to live with . but we have to now and that is why I seek the Lord as much as I can for my life, to not be one who is so draining and using and destructive.
But I can be and I lay my head in shame as a "friend who knows The FRIEND and Lord of us all walks in the room and I thank God I remember what we are doing here once again.
on the good side does not mean I like it it is just the way it is. Sometimes I dam well enjoy sin . It is easier now to submit and realize I must obey HIS WILL , because I have become more accustomed to being with Jesus than being without HIM and I am a bit of a wreck without Him and so many freaking recognize the difference in me I give up. really.
He will never leave or forsake me that I am very very certain of.
We all all just waiting for it to be over , and the kingdom to be built, in the meantime I believe all I can do is love as much as I can and wait till He shows up to tell me what to do next . Such is my Lord.
I never assume deliverence you as Rottie says in another post we can be disappointed in thinking God will answer prayer and then not understand the big picture of what life is here...
The idea that we walk around as mighty men and women of God casting out the evil of this world is enticing and why many cling to pfal .
I submit knowing Jesus as The Lord is so much more than that, as a servant more good is to be done than playing around with what has the right to be here and now meaning natural man and demons.
I believe the focus is the redemption of what Jesus accomplished and the HOPE of His return and Life eternal.
The bible states the Kingdom is the answer to everything not today . Christians get caught up in the quick fix of this world and expect it from God as well.. I do not think He looks at our life in terms of the temporary flesh we give to His Son to help now..
Again it comes down to the grace idea.
We didnt earn anything Jesus Christ is the KING not us.. and His kingdom is still being built it is not finished HIS WORK is finished not ours.
Demons can and do have a right to play with Gods people because we use them to live here until we are perfect in Christ. to me this is not difficult to understand nor does it make people "evil" workers that God doesnt Love .
He loves us so much He gave of His Son.
See???
it isnt about us as much as twi wants us to think it is, it just isnt. Well the fact Jesus loves us to such a capacity it is. yet the power is in the Lord not our flesh or our education of what Gods bible may say.
does jesus love someone who gets healed more?
no. then why some and not another? The devil plays here, that is why, and it is a very personal relationship with the Lord each person is a unquie child of God that has work to do to be His best for HIM.
some can and do work on this more than others, but this does not give them more power or grace .
So the idea of heirarchy is crap as well in other words oo I knew a clergy He had the power of God!!!
CRAP I say we are called to do work , by God if we chose to do it we do. If we do not we do not it makes no differece on who God is or isnt to our life , He wants us to be perfect!
Jesus speaks a great deal more on loving one another than any type of deliverence and often times it was not even His followers He healed .
It was to show us the power of God, so we can understand the idea of Him being a KIng of that power.
I know I believe God gave Him the authority to be King over us only and the "war of spirits is not the focus till the very end.. when death will be destroyed. He has always said it is Love that conquers evil not some special zapping power .
When someone cares about me and truly loves me I listen more alot more than a bravodo of destruction that many twi and off shoot people claim as power from God. What good does that do to say well big freaking deal a demon is here surprized ?? of course they are they rule this freaking place and have every right to determine the course of events, for me I try to listen to "a better way". but .... it isnt easy for me or Jesus Christ that is why we need the Love of God towards one another. I believe that and the hope is the only path to peace.
But instead I see His followers sitting at the table trying to decide who is best and by what means, today. The same as it was when He was here in the flesh . it doesnt surprize me that Jesus knows us so well we are in a very limited space thinking and doing what we have always done. He does know how to fix everything we just do not want it done His way.
His way isnt what He would chose either ya know this is why I have such a tender heart towards Jesus and can and do consider Him so precious to my life, He does know what this world is like, what being human is like , what obeying God is like for us. It is not easy( life here and now) He makes it easy with His love. not perfect but worth it. well I bought the program so long ago I just do not want to live a day without His ability to show me how to cope anymore. I also believe in life here after so I hope for better days with Him to come.
When I get nervous for the return and sick of waiting to live a life without demons or problems I remember He waits for me longer and still loves us. also our children. How sweet is that??
I had an experience where I realized He does know our pain, but we will never know His completely because he was innocent from birth, and He does love and care for us and always will.
Everyone - I'm going to have to go off-line for a few days. I'm looking forward to getting back, because I think this has become a profoundly interesting discussion. See you real soon!
It seems quite baffling to me as to why you are so fiercely possessive of this thread. The GreaseSpot cafe is open to all who want to talk about their experiences about the Way International. I am appalled that you stoop to fart comments when Oakspear makes the prophetic comment that ?he feels a filibuster coming on'.
You do not ?own' this thread and if people want to interrupt your infomercial....then they are entitled to do so.
Dear Lalao, MJ, CoolWaters and especially Steve Lortitz:
I find this whole topic of the interplay of the physical and spiritual realms to be very interesting. Before I came to the Way I was involved in spiritualism. It is my opinion that they have the best explanation for this whole area of scripture. I am forever thankful to the Way for answering my questions about this stuff and getting me to quit playing around with spiritualism.
Maybe you need to recalibrate your ?fierce possessiveness? detector. I made my rightful comment that Steve?s thesis was far from what I set out to do here, and then I backed off. If you had been following my saga here in greater detail, you?d have seen the heartfelt plea Ginger Tea made to me to give people a chance to rest a little from my barrage of new information. I agreed with her and have backed off quite a bit lately.
Now, these recent posts here of mine have been both in a light hearted area that I think Oakspear and I got a good chuckle from. Fart jokes are an excellent way of discerning just who are the type of uptight pinhead theologians I don?t ever want to take seriously. Breaking wind is a great way to break the ice, so just hold your nose and enjoy the warmth.
I also think it totally appropriate for me to have taken this opportunity to show Steve just how it feels to have a train of thought infiltrated with other unrelated trains of thought. I too think some of his points are interesting, but they aren?t going to help us find out what Dr REALLY taught us and that we missed.
When it comes to the science of miracles, I have 30 years of research I did in the area of quantum physics INCLUDING THE MATH. It?s real easy to b.s. in this area, but when it gets right down to the Schroedinger Equation the men are separated from the boys.
As long as we are to go into this area, I can add Godel?s Theorem as another related area of inquiry that fits in greatly with the truly interesting topics Steve has touched on. Roger Penrose, one of the world?s top mathematicians, wrote a book called ?The Emperor?s New Mind? which delves deeply into this spiritual/physical connection involving Godel and quantum. This book and others like it I have spent many years looking into. I?m VERY familiar with Steve?s topic. I just don?t think it belongs in this thread.
If I had the time (lately I don?t), and if I hadn't been in a "back off" mode, I?d have MUCH more aggressively run circles around his derailments and brought the thread right back to my intended focus every time he posted. I know the subject he is posting on MUCH better than he, so I have no doubt in my abilities to do such steering. Because of time and the need too cool it for others here I didn?t. I said my peace once, then backed off. Then I took Oakspear?s cue and cut the cheese with him. I think you need to lighten up and pay better attention to the bigger picture before you criticize me for being fiercely possessive.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 27, 2003 at 2:25.]
Well karmicdebt, your kind of ?actual? dialog ain?t the same as my kind of ?actual? dialog.
Are you suggesting that you have the monopoly on actuality?
I didn?t deny how interesting Steve?s topic was, I studied it for years with great interest, but it?s not the topic I started on this thread, and it won?t help you get out of the spiritual hole you dug yourself into when you rejected this Word that God taught Dr and Dr taught us in written form.
And if you think this or my other post was over the top, please let me remind you that I?m in my restrained vacation mode here.
I thoroughly expect plenty more derailment when Steve gets back, but when someone is ?appalled? at my derailing Steve?s derailment with the literary equivalent of a loud fart, I have a right to let them know they are dead wrong, just like I?m telling you right now that you are dead wrong.
Until we rightly divide in the PFAL writings how Dr utilized certain key words to designate the human-physical perspective from the Godly divine-spiritual perspective, it is the sad case that we have NOT finished taking the class.
When we come back to PFAL and DO rightly divide these precious writings this way, THEN we will finally see the treasure of the Godly spiritual perspective that God taught Dr and Dr taught us in written form.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 27, 2003 at 0:35.]
No vickles, it was farts in Steve's topic that the guy from the Victorian age, EWB, was appalled at. Remember, this is a rightfully executed derailment of Steve's we're on here.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
82
119
656
81
Popular Days
Jun 15
86
Jul 3
73
Jul 12
50
Mar 31
49
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 82 posts
mj412 119 posts
Mike 656 posts
Steve Lortz 81 posts
Popular Days
Jun 15 2003
86 posts
Jul 3 2003
73 posts
Jul 12 2003
50 posts
Mar 31 2003
49 posts
Popular Posts
Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Steve Lortz
laleo - You wrote, "Figures of speech are pictures painted with words that create images in the reader's mind which bypass reason to evoke emotion."
That's one valid definition of figures, but it isn't the only one. There are rules of language. For instance, when giving a list with three or more elements, all of the elements are connected by commas, except for the next to the last and the final elements, which are connected with a conjunction.
"The woods were full of dangerous animals; lions, tigers and bears." (You have to imagine this sentence being read in the monotones of a middle-school lit class student.)
To write the sentence "The woods were full of dangerous animals; lions, tigers, bears." would be a violation of the rule, but it is the valid figure of speech "asyndeton" or "no ands". It doesn't draw attention to the danger presented by the particular animals, it just illustrates that there are animals and they are dangerous.
If we were to write "The woods were full of dangerous animals; lions and tigers and bears." this also would violate the rule (picture Judy Garland delivering this line in "The Wizard of Oz" Oh my!). However, this is a use of the figure "polysyndeton" or "many ands". It draws attention to each of the particular animals, and that animal's particular danger.
So, figures of speech can be apparent violations of the rules of grammar, even though they are actually valid uses. The author of the Word (God, if you are so inclined to believe) included figures to draw attention to the things HE wanted emphasized.
Now to the "laws of nature". Physics is a description of human experience stated in the language of mathematics. Newton didn't "discover" gravity. He invented (and/or developed, depending on your point of view) calculus, which he used to describe the "action at a distance" of gravity guiding the motions of the planets. The culture of the time found this very profitable, because calculus could also be used to describe the motion of cannonballs. A useful art indeed!
Newton's laws, which are called "classical" physics, were "deterministic". That is, there was an unbroken chain of cause and effect that linked every entity in the universe into an unalterable, predictable, lock-step dance, from the creation of the universe to its destruction. There was no room under Newtonian mechanics for God to influence anything after He initially set the universe in motion. This gave rise to the theology known as deism that viewed God as a clockmaker who doesn't interfere with the operation of His creation. The occurance of actual miracles became inconceivable. Eventually theologians could declare that "God is dead."
Yet, in the early- to mid-twentieth century, classical physics was displaced by quantum mechanics, which are *not* deterministic. Rather, the new "laws" are probabilistic. When a system changes its quantum state, there is *no* single pre-determined outcome. There is instead a set of possible outcomes with probabilities attached to each. Miracles are not "violations" of the laws of nature. They are instances where systems experience highly improbable outcomes to changes of state.
I believe God causes miracles, apparent violations to the "laws" of nature, in order to draw attention to things in our experience that He wants us to particularly observe; the same way He uses figures of speech, apparent "violations" to the rules of grammar, to draw our attention to particular things in His Word.
I no longer believe that miracles are the result of "spirit-realm laws" superceding "senses-realm laws".
More tomorrow.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
Does all evil behaviour come from a demon???
I believe it does, as God said what He created was good and the devil is able to kill steal and destroy...
YET...
We say "that is an evil person" when talking about a person who murdered who did some horrible act yet we are not all capable of these behaviours and then sometimes we can for the "good " for example God ordered His people to kill the enemy etc.
so it has to be a thinking thing as you state Steve. murder is sin but not al murder is sin if you go by the bible standards ..
so it may not be the devil or a demon but it could be a demon ...
I think it is spiritual in a mind thinking areana as well ..
"THEY opened their mind to it"" remember that??
I was taught we can open our mind to thoughts that invite evil behaviour to generate within then once allowed to operate as a thinking part it is impossible to ask those thought to leave , (more come back to the house) if the person enjoys the behaviour and its rewards.
What we allow may be from birth , and I suppose a medical link can be noted as in the imbalance , again it may be an evil spirit but handed down from previous generations and not willing to leave a person alone geneticly it may have a huge physical stronghold.. ( like the bible states your fathers sins are handed down at times)
I think God can heal these situations but it would be very difficult for a person to recognize the problem without expert advice and care in the physical matters of what is wrong in the flesh , what the demon has destroyed etc.
Damage is done to unborn children by demons , damage can be done in the mental realm as well it does not always mean the person is possessed with a demon it to me means destruction has happened some where in the genetic makeup of that persons family and carried on down..
Behaviours are interesting to me, because we assume all folks can see that is wrong but we do not do we honestly not when it comes to Gods standards, and how many times does denial play along???
Something we tolerated growing up may be very much a knowing demon we can be comfortable with , such as alcohol or drug abuse, yet to others it is not tolerated and fought off and not to be tolerated in the least.
We often do not recognize demons untill another person can not put up with what we seem to be comfortable with and that is why the bible is needed to set the standard against evil and good.
Frankly I do think we would know the difference satan has a beautiful contenence that is appearing wonderful or in the least not a problem when we can not see the illusions he generates.
I have dealt with a demon and I did ask him to leave the person alone and it point blank told me he didnt have to leave, although I believe the power of God could have done it , it didnt leave because the person living with it enjoyed the rewards of its power.
this person knew he had a demon and had grown so accustomed to the behaviour it gnerated within him he was not sure he wanted to live without the pleasure . the demon knew it and stayed.
God warned me if I pushed the matter any further it would leave and be allowed to come back seven times worse for the person and those he was destroying with his power. I didnt play around .
I learned we do have alot of say when it comes to demons but they also have the ability to manipulate how people think. the choice is up to the person whether deliverence is possible and if they can not chose to live without its position in their life it must stay.
sometimes they cause so much physical damage or even mental damage the person is not healthy enough to chose to fight them .. Myexample was a christian man very very well read in the bible so I am not so sure education or instruction helps either.
But I know I can hold them back from hurting me ,to me this was a miricle.from God to me.
I have spoken to devil spirits and that one had a stronghold of power within my life , but he had the right to do what he was doing from the person who thought what he was doing was ok.. But not in My life because I didnt ok the behaviour , yet it meant getting rid of the person as well in this case.. I actualy saw this freak come and go and recognized it . I asked the person why he didnt want to have it leave and he sounded very righteous in his reason it should stay , I think this is the case with many demons and I think this is the reason we are asked to get together with one another and not forsake one another so when thoughts begin to creep in they can not get a foot hold to the point people become comfortable with them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
mj412 - It appears from what you write that you have drawn lessons from your experiences with demons similar to the lessons I've drawn from my own exposures. I found your post very interesting.
laleo - You wrote, "You mentioned that you found peace with Jesus Christ after reading Matthew 11:28-30. When I read those verses, I see a paradox..."
That's not exactly what happened. I wrote "When I renounced my commitment to the error I had been taught... The noose I had constructed of my own commitment was gone."
The deliverance came when I made the decision to turn away from the foolish commitments I had made, commitmnents to promoting error. I quoted Matthew 11:28-30 in my post to contrast the nature of laboring for the Lord with the nature of laboring for error.
When a person is drawn away from the Word of God by his own over desires, demons can dangle bait in front of that person. If the person goes for the lure, he doesn't actually get what he's going after, he gets his head caught in a figurative noose. The demons keep the bait just beyond reach. The harder the person strives to reach the bait, the tighter the noose becomes.
Laboring for error is working for diminishing returns. The harder you work, the more difficult it becomes. It brings frustration, disappointment and bitterness. It burns a person out. The thing around the persons neck is a noose, not a yoke.
Laboring for the Lord isn't always a cake-walk, but He never puts a task before us that we cannot do, if we pull together with Him. Yoking a pair of oxen together allows them both to pull, and actually get something done.
More later.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Mike - You wrote, "There are two arms of flesh I feel you still have too much respect for. One is the scholarly team that has attempted to reconstruct the original scriptures. The other is your own reasoning ability to work with the tools that scholarly team has provided."
The Word of God says that God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Rationalization of error is not the product of a sound mind. It may be the product of a deceiving mind. It may be the product of a deceived mind. But rationalization of error is *never* the product of a sound mind.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Something that I have realized after dumping my twi-tainted glasses when reading the bible...
To me, this is setting a difference between what is of the flesh and what is of the spirit. To me, if these things were "of demons", would it not say as much?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
CoolWaters - Good point! The Word of God contrasts walking according to the spirit with walking according to the flesh. Wierwille contrasted walking according to the spirit with walking according to the senses. We didn't learn *anything* about what the Word of God means when it uses the word "flesh". More very good food for thought. Thanks!
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
YW, Steve. I just remember vpw (and others) always saying, "You have to be possessed to commit murder." I believed it then...because it explained why my father would murder my mother...but now that I've grown up a little bit, I wonder if the OT folks were possessed when they were told to murder others. Things like that make me think...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
laleo
Steve,
I now understand your FOS/physics analogy, although it's been a long, long time since I've heard Wierwille's definition (or, more likely, Bullinger's) of figures of speech. While I won't take you to task on it, you may want to consider that if a writer (inspired by God or not) wishes to place emphasis on a point, repetition is a more effective tool than images. Consider how many times the Bible states that "the Lord our God is one Lord." No lofty language. No figures of speech. No grammatical hand stands. Just straightforward prose. Over and over again. And we get the point. Only God is God. It's a message that's repeated. For emphasis. Consider also that while Bullinger has a far keener mind than mine, and is much more skilled at identifying and categorizing figures of speech in the Bible, his conclusion (or maybe Wierwille's) for why they are there isn't absolute. Read a poem, any poem, and you'll probably conclude that figures of speech are employed to give focus to the message, to narrow the meaning. Not because those particular lines are more important, or even emphasized, just more dense, more textured, more vivid. While it might be interesting to follow the pattern of asyndeton and polysyndeton in the Bible (I forgot about those), what I wonder more is how much of the Bible is metaphor.
Regarding God, miracles, and physics, let me say first that I often envy people of faith, and admire those with religious convictions (Mike: Please note that I said convictions, not illusions). If I've understood your point, it is that miracles, which seem to defy natural law, operate within it. Just as God, angels, and demons operate within it. Now, here's where I'm unclear. Because you often refer to the Bible as "the Word of God" and seem to respect the authority of the Bible as a vehicle to transport God into human consciousness, I've made some assumptions about who you understand God to be. So correct me if I'm wrong.
The God that I was introduced to in The Way, the God I thought I knew, isn't the Universal Oneness, the Eternal Self, the Unity of Creation, the Brotherhood of Man, who exists in the physical world, maybe as some sort of energy field, who can be found in flowers and suffering and rainbows and meditation and children. He is a God with personality. He is loving, and angry, and jealous, and merciful, and powerful. He responds to human need. He hates injustice, hypocrisy, and arrogance. He won't tolerate disobedience. If you get into a battle of wills with him, you will surely lose, but He will admire you for the effort, and even reward you for putting up a fight. He likes spunk. If you don't like the outcomes in your life, you can plead your case to Him, and, if you've managed to persuade Him that you've been treated unfairly, He will rearrange the universe to set things right. He is interactive. He is present. Is this the God you say exists in the physical world? If so, where? Even Jesus, when he referred to the Kingdom of God, indicated that it originated in heaven. If heaven is actually on earth, why haven't scientists been able to detect it with, say, a seismograph of the spirit, like they've been able to detect even the smallest eruptions within the earth? If demons are limited in space and time, why is there no ruler to measure their height, their influence, their presence? It's not for lack of trying, Steve. Scientists have labored to detect God since the beginning of science, since the beginning of God. Lately, they've given up on finding Him, and are focusing their efforts on finding other clues to His presence ? by measuring the influence of prayer, by quantifying psychic phenomena, by chasing after miracles. So far, nothing. Scientists have been able to detect life, and energy, the origins of wind, the components of fire, and the effects of love. If this is the God you are describing ? the God of life and energy and wind and fire and love ? then, yes, I agree, that God (who is as impersonal as nature itself) is present and accounted for. But that isn?t the Christian God, as I understand it.
Take care, Steve. I?m glad to hear you and your wife have found some solutions to her illness. And I?m also glad you?ve had your faith to rely on, too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
that whole body soul and spirit thing got twisted in the way .
The big cram down my throat was the verse No condemation for those in the spirt of christ thing.
Well let me tell you the next EXCUSe was well the devil goes after the ones working for the Lord .
Mike has taken this position as well I think it is crap.
So you have the power of God now the devil will force you to do evil things , because your working for HIm but there is no condemation in Christ Jesus ..so do not worry or think about it
That is the philosphy of TWI!!!!
Think about it!!!
it truly was taught that way whenever issue were metioned.
I absolutly believe christians can and do get possessed by devil spirits and NOT because demons like to attack them anymore than anything eles but because they begin to play the first sin all over again and begin to knowing better than God for their life and lose the humility of Christ and the cross He asks us to bear as His heirs.
Satan plays hard ball and entices with beauty and huge power , listen he would have been out of business from the very beginning if he didnt have the ability to attract people. God has a plan to end this game but in the process I need to learn over and over what we are fighting for and if it is the "good" then I must learn to be "good" as God defines life to be.
Clearly satans and his demons have power over the flesh of man..
that is why I say it is a choice and not neccesarily one I would chose for my life this knowing Jesus as Lord.
A lord is one who tells me, it is a wonderful thing that He can consider us friends out of love but that does not in the least upsurp His authority on Earth or in the Kingdom some day. God had one begotten Son and it was Jesus and He EARNED it by dying . for us. truly that is a Love I am incapable of.
none of has died obeying God . We can feel good and die for someone but was it Gods will or our own doing ? A choice of our flesh? Jesus christ the man didnt want to die at all and begged for another as metioned earlier.
The bottom line of the story we have no chance of being the messiah due to the whole story of redemption etc.
the only reason I can trust Jesus is because He is the only one who has proven Himself to be right all the time forever.
the rest of us were born into sin, which brings up a nawing question about the God and the birth of Jesus christ NONE of us had a mom who claims to have had the experience Mary did in conceiving Jesus..
So we are sinner born into the world with a choice to accept Jesus as Lord or not, Jesus as Lord does not make us able to obey we need a ton of work and deliverence and the ability to learn right from wrong and CHOSE the correct way..
Using twi terms I look at it like this now
Body and soul are the same thing and God can and does work within these . An animal has only body yet God did use animals in the bible stories ok the soul is the same and God does use "natural man to further his causes . so does satan and demons .
spirit is itself a spirit can be a good spirit or a bad spirit but it is the same just a spirit that can come and go ...
God is Spirit , but we do not know God we know the Spirit of Jesus Christ who is one with God a place we can not be , a relationship that He is working out for us someday we can notnow "know God" or be his only beloved Son becase we still have alot of sin nature born into us. Jesus did alot for us by listening and doing more than any of us could ever.
but God created us so He will and does perform in the manner of loving us in the world we live in that is now dominated by satan and his workers. He (GOD THE FATHER) tells and loves Jesus Christ how it needs to be done and the Christ of mankind is in the spirit we recognize as we grow into a relationship of making Him Lord.
God wants all men to be saved.
Fleshy men are sinners as we all seem to be born of men not from God as Jesus was, this does not make us evil as twi liked to twist it. Just what we are as the bible states ..
Now a person can be full blown possessed , yet the "flesh has a particular life within that it must play out its work in , and a person can also have a spirit of Christ within and It will at times chill out the spirit of evil .
I have heard people say Christ cleans us from sin yeah sure He does, but never completly till the return of His body till then the flesh and possibly devil spirits that house there as well live until we die in the flesh.
All knees must bow to Jesus christ but who on this earth has the perfect will of God all the time?
no one it isnt possible today that is why it is called grace becase we play in all three areanas and hope so mightly for the end of the time when satan would not even be a factor and the flesh will be gone. that is our only hope..
People begin to think spirit are more than they are as steve states...
It is true the more I recognize jesus christ the more I get the chance to speak to evil spirits or just spirits not of God the Father.. some are just laughable to me now they are so common in our culture and allowed to run rampant.
sure they will leave while I am talking to them if I tell them to but without the power of God the "flesh looks rather bewildered without them and blames the confusion on me or illness or something.. lol
If a person has prayed for deliverence and is ready to submit to the Power of God it takes to "renew your mind to what He determines is good then by all means it happens they can and will leave for good I have seen it happen and let me say the Love that person has for me is never ending and I give the glory to God Almighty . I do not EVER consider Me to be the one casting out devils it is truly the power of God and the fact I have made Jesus my Lord that it can happen..
But mostly devil spiritis just play with my head hurt my feelings make me angry. I long for fellowship with other strong christians who have sound minds on a daily base because ds are freaking draining and exhausting to have to live with . but we have to now and that is why I seek the Lord as much as I can for my life, to not be one who is so draining and using and destructive.
But I can be and I lay my head in shame as a "friend who knows The FRIEND and Lord of us all walks in the room and I thank God I remember what we are doing here once again.
on the good side does not mean I like it it is just the way it is. Sometimes I dam well enjoy sin . It is easier now to submit and realize I must obey HIS WILL , because I have become more accustomed to being with Jesus than being without HIM and I am a bit of a wreck without Him and so many freaking recognize the difference in me I give up. really.
He will never leave or forsake me that I am very very certain of.
We all all just waiting for it to be over , and the kingdom to be built, in the meantime I believe all I can do is love as much as I can and wait till He shows up to tell me what to do next . Such is my Lord.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Being born again gives one considerable tools
for doing the will of God. It does NOT make
one immune to committing sinful behaviour, nor
does it make one immune to devilish influence.
What one is SUPPOSED to do is make the
decision to
"make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill the
lusts thereof."
One is SUPPOSED to call on the power of God,
not automatically assume He's zapping every
devil that approaches you.
The idea that leadership could provision places
and times for sinful behaviour, inviting
devilish influence, and expect God to force His
protection on him despite his choices was
profoundly silly, and practiced from the top.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
wordwolf
well said I think I talk to much lol.
I never assume deliverence you as Rottie says in another post we can be disappointed in thinking God will answer prayer and then not understand the big picture of what life is here...
The idea that we walk around as mighty men and women of God casting out the evil of this world is enticing and why many cling to pfal .
I submit knowing Jesus as The Lord is so much more than that, as a servant more good is to be done than playing around with what has the right to be here and now meaning natural man and demons.
I believe the focus is the redemption of what Jesus accomplished and the HOPE of His return and Life eternal.
The bible states the Kingdom is the answer to everything not today . Christians get caught up in the quick fix of this world and expect it from God as well.. I do not think He looks at our life in terms of the temporary flesh we give to His Son to help now..
Again it comes down to the grace idea.
We didnt earn anything Jesus Christ is the KING not us.. and His kingdom is still being built it is not finished HIS WORK is finished not ours.
Demons can and do have a right to play with Gods people because we use them to live here until we are perfect in Christ. to me this is not difficult to understand nor does it make people "evil" workers that God doesnt Love .
He loves us so much He gave of His Son.
See???
it isnt about us as much as twi wants us to think it is, it just isnt. Well the fact Jesus loves us to such a capacity it is. yet the power is in the Lord not our flesh or our education of what Gods bible may say.
does jesus love someone who gets healed more?
no. then why some and not another? The devil plays here, that is why, and it is a very personal relationship with the Lord each person is a unquie child of God that has work to do to be His best for HIM.
some can and do work on this more than others, but this does not give them more power or grace .
So the idea of heirarchy is crap as well in other words oo I knew a clergy He had the power of God!!!
CRAP I say we are called to do work , by God if we chose to do it we do. If we do not we do not it makes no differece on who God is or isnt to our life , He wants us to be perfect!
Jesus speaks a great deal more on loving one another than any type of deliverence and often times it was not even His followers He healed .
It was to show us the power of God, so we can understand the idea of Him being a KIng of that power.
I know I believe God gave Him the authority to be King over us only and the "war of spirits is not the focus till the very end.. when death will be destroyed. He has always said it is Love that conquers evil not some special zapping power .
When someone cares about me and truly loves me I listen more alot more than a bravodo of destruction that many twi and off shoot people claim as power from God. What good does that do to say well big freaking deal a demon is here surprized ?? of course they are they rule this freaking place and have every right to determine the course of events, for me I try to listen to "a better way". but .... it isnt easy for me or Jesus Christ that is why we need the Love of God towards one another. I believe that and the hope is the only path to peace.
But instead I see His followers sitting at the table trying to decide who is best and by what means, today. The same as it was when He was here in the flesh . it doesnt surprize me that Jesus knows us so well we are in a very limited space thinking and doing what we have always done. He does know how to fix everything we just do not want it done His way.
His way isnt what He would chose either ya know this is why I have such a tender heart towards Jesus and can and do consider Him so precious to my life, He does know what this world is like, what being human is like , what obeying God is like for us. It is not easy( life here and now) He makes it easy with His love. not perfect but worth it. well I bought the program so long ago I just do not want to live a day without His ability to show me how to cope anymore. I also believe in life here after so I hope for better days with Him to come.
When I get nervous for the return and sick of waiting to live a life without demons or problems I remember He waits for me longer and still loves us. also our children. How sweet is that??
I had an experience where I realized He does know our pain, but we will never know His completely because he was innocent from birth, and He does love and care for us and always will.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Everyone - I'm going to have to go off-line for a few days. I'm looking forward to getting back, because I think this has become a profoundly interesting discussion. See you real soon!
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Gee! This may be my chance to "steal" back my thread and get it back on the original topic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
ah think ah feel a filibuster comin' on
:D-->
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Oakspear,
Just try leaning from your sitting position a little to one side, and that'll probably let it out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
fart jokes! just what this thread needed
:D-->
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
He who smelt it...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
E. W. Bullinger
Dear Mike:
It seems quite baffling to me as to why you are so fiercely possessive of this thread. The GreaseSpot cafe is open to all who want to talk about their experiences about the Way International. I am appalled that you stoop to fart comments when Oakspear makes the prophetic comment that ?he feels a filibuster coming on'.
You do not ?own' this thread and if people want to interrupt your infomercial....then they are entitled to do so.
Dear Lalao, MJ, CoolWaters and especially Steve Lortitz:
I find this whole topic of the interplay of the physical and spiritual realms to be very interesting. Before I came to the Way I was involved in spiritualism. It is my opinion that they have the best explanation for this whole area of scripture. I am forever thankful to the Way for answering my questions about this stuff and getting me to quit playing around with spiritualism.
EWB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Hi EWB,
Maybe you need to recalibrate your ?fierce possessiveness? detector. I made my rightful comment that Steve?s thesis was far from what I set out to do here, and then I backed off. If you had been following my saga here in greater detail, you?d have seen the heartfelt plea Ginger Tea made to me to give people a chance to rest a little from my barrage of new information. I agreed with her and have backed off quite a bit lately.
Now, these recent posts here of mine have been both in a light hearted area that I think Oakspear and I got a good chuckle from. Fart jokes are an excellent way of discerning just who are the type of uptight pinhead theologians I don?t ever want to take seriously. Breaking wind is a great way to break the ice, so just hold your nose and enjoy the warmth.
I also think it totally appropriate for me to have taken this opportunity to show Steve just how it feels to have a train of thought infiltrated with other unrelated trains of thought. I too think some of his points are interesting, but they aren?t going to help us find out what Dr REALLY taught us and that we missed.
When it comes to the science of miracles, I have 30 years of research I did in the area of quantum physics INCLUDING THE MATH. It?s real easy to b.s. in this area, but when it gets right down to the Schroedinger Equation the men are separated from the boys.
As long as we are to go into this area, I can add Godel?s Theorem as another related area of inquiry that fits in greatly with the truly interesting topics Steve has touched on. Roger Penrose, one of the world?s top mathematicians, wrote a book called ?The Emperor?s New Mind? which delves deeply into this spiritual/physical connection involving Godel and quantum. This book and others like it I have spent many years looking into. I?m VERY familiar with Steve?s topic. I just don?t think it belongs in this thread.
If I had the time (lately I don?t), and if I hadn't been in a "back off" mode, I?d have MUCH more aggressively run circles around his derailments and brought the thread right back to my intended focus every time he posted. I know the subject he is posting on MUCH better than he, so I have no doubt in my abilities to do such steering. Because of time and the need too cool it for others here I didn?t. I said my peace once, then backed off. Then I took Oakspear?s cue and cut the cheese with him. I think you need to lighten up and pay better attention to the bigger picture before you criticize me for being fiercely possessive.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 27, 2003 at 2:25.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
karmicdebt
Actually your entire response was fiercely possessive...
A little over the top as per usual to someone who said he was thankful for the bit of actual dialog that squeezed itself into your infomercial.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Well karmicdebt, your kind of ?actual? dialog ain?t the same as my kind of ?actual? dialog.
Are you suggesting that you have the monopoly on actuality?
I didn?t deny how interesting Steve?s topic was, I studied it for years with great interest, but it?s not the topic I started on this thread, and it won?t help you get out of the spiritual hole you dug yourself into when you rejected this Word that God taught Dr and Dr taught us in written form.
And if you think this or my other post was over the top, please let me remind you that I?m in my restrained vacation mode here.
I thoroughly expect plenty more derailment when Steve gets back, but when someone is ?appalled? at my derailing Steve?s derailment with the literary equivalent of a loud fart, I have a right to let them know they are dead wrong, just like I?m telling you right now that you are dead wrong.
Until we rightly divide in the PFAL writings how Dr utilized certain key words to designate the human-physical perspective from the Godly divine-spiritual perspective, it is the sad case that we have NOT finished taking the class.
When we come back to PFAL and DO rightly divide these precious writings this way, THEN we will finally see the treasure of the Godly spiritual perspective that God taught Dr and Dr taught us in written form.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 27, 2003 at 0:35.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
Farts and pfal? Yea they do kind of go together like two peas in a pod.....
;)-->
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
No vickles, it was farts in Steve's topic that the guy from the Victorian age, EWB, was appalled at. Remember, this is a rightfully executed derailment of Steve's we're on here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
After seeing how you "handled" other scientific
subjects, I openly challenge you having a
degree in physics, qualifying you to do
"30 years of research in quantum physics
INCLUDING THE MATH". (Emphasis yours.)
Furthermore, I'm just a little curious how
someone with a veritable lifetime's worth of
research in physics is not working in anything
vaguely resembling academia, unless he can do
better for himself (like, say, run a
corporation.)
Sorry, Mike, I just don't take anyone's word
that they're well-researched, qualified, or
"THE anything" anymore.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.