There are two arms of flesh I feel you still have too much respect for. One is the scholarly team that has attempted to reconstruct the original scriptures. The other is your own reasoning ability to work with the tools that scholarly team has provided.
These same two arms of flesh I too spent some time in trusting, and I was as disappointed as you were as you described your experiences with a few schools of thought.
We all have to identify SOME flesh source of God?s Word, and our own understanding of it. I tried the one you have described and was disappointed. I went back to an earlier one that worked better, when I finally realized how much I had drifted for it.
It was our trust in the TVT, which differed more and more from PFAL, that was our disappointment in TWI. All my posting is focused on this fact, that we never really got PFAL, not fully. It was quickly watered down and changed in our heads, and we ended up with a close but disappointing counterfeit.
I?ve placed my bet, and after 5 years I?m more and more convinced that it is right.
The song "Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!" was written by Povel Ramel. Translated it means "I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts!". He has written over 800 songs usually with very witty lyrics and double entendres. Yet when you hear them a second time they seem to be just a simple and almost childish song.
This song reminds me of this thread because Mike has read into cryptic remarks by VPW and lauded his writings above scripture. This is clearly idolitry and something that I myself have heard VPW preach against. This whole scenario is as goofy as the song.
My own personal thoughts are that Dr. Wierwille is dead and God only works through living leadership. This precedent is found in both the Old and New Testaments. So why should I take my time and master teachings from a dead man or from a class that is no longer available? This is as foolish and nutty as the outlandish lyrics of the song.
You mean I have to wait for them to run out gas before I can start cleaning up all this clutter and get back to topic?
I can cull through the clutter later. I sometimes wonder what non-posting readers think who might come here for the topic and are hit with these kinds of distractions. I guess they'll have to wade through it all too.
Mike:
Surely you've figured out by now that your opinion is not going to go unchallenged! By all means, don't wait for those who disagree with you to "run out of gas" before launching into a continuation of your one-note theme.
I can see why you, someone who is on a "mission" of sorts, might think that anything that doesn't support your opinion is "clutter" and therefore a distraction, but many others do not think so.
What might non-posters who come here for "the topic" think? Maybe that GreaseSpot is a hodgepodge of ideas and filled with an eclectic collection of ex-Ways who by no means agree on what the Way experience was all about.
Nuttin' wrong wit' dat :D-->
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
quote:My own personal thoughts are that Dr. Wierwille is dead and God only works through living leadership. This precedent is found in both the Old and New Testaments. So why should I take my time and master teachings from a dead man or from a class that is no longer available? This is as foolish and nutty as the outlandish lyrics of the song.
The person who invented the piano is dead too, so why take time to learn how to master playing the piano?
Although I am far from conluding, PFAL="THE GOD BREATHED WORD", PFAL contains tools to help one master the Word of God, which in turn gives one a greater mastery of life. I believe PFAL is still the greatest assemblage of those tools, even if VPW did take them from various sources.
A workman only becomes skillful when he continues to make use of the tools of his trade. That is his or her choice. If I choose to quit playing the piano, then my skills begin to suffer and I am no longer as skillful at playing the piano as I was once before. It's the: "either you use it or lose it" principle at work.
I don't have a problem with the "Master PFAL" message Mike is bringing to the table. The only problem I have would be with allowing PFAL to master me, not me mastering it. I can't argue the fact there were many leaders in TWI who used PFAL just to become the masters over people. And yes, the true God only works through living leadership, not dead ones. Spiritually, the leadership who used PFAL merely for the purpose of mastering others are worse than those who are physically dead!
I think many people got lazy and allowed TWI/LEADERSHIP/PFAL to master them. The best thing they could have done was get tired of it and leave that brand of leadership. I think that is why many here are sick and tired of hearing what Mike has to say. Yep - I'd hate playing the piano too if someone kept forcing me into doing it. So unlike Mike, I ain't forcing anybody into mastering PFAL. It's their choice if they want to or not.
quote:Although I am far from conluding, PFAL="THE GOD BREATHED WORD", PFAL contains tools to help one master the Word of God, which in turn gives one a greater mastery of life. I believe PFAL is still the greatest assemblage of those tools, even if VPW did take them from various sources.
What other works, if any, have you read or studied that lead you to conclude that PFAL is the greatest of these? I have heard this statement made by other PFAL fans before, but after a bit of probing, it was pretty clear that many had never ventured outside of PFAL and Bullinger to even know what was out there - much less study them. If you haven't studied other works then you have no way to make a fair and honest comparison. Maybe you have, but I kind of doubt it.
quote:I think many people got lazy and allowed TWI/LEADERSHIP/PFAL to master them. The best thing they could have done was get tired of it and leave that brand of leadership. I think that is why many here are sick and tired of hearing what Mike has to say. Yep - I'd hate playing the piano too if someone kept forcing me into doing it. So unlike Mike, I ain't forcing anybody into mastering PFAL. It's their choice if they want to or not.
I think laziness has little to do with why folks are sick and tired of Mike's message. Mike is not trying to force anyone. He is just offering his opinion which he takes much too seriously. What Mike is also doing though, is exalting PFAL, the work of a man, above the real Word of God and then saying that "mastery" of PFAL is the "only" true way to know God.
Mastery of PFAL is not necessarily a bad thing, and mastery of certain parts of PFAL would in my opinion be time very well spent, but not because it is the Word of God, but rather because it teaches some pretty good remedial keys on how to come to a greater understanding of the real Word of God which is revealed through scripture.
Unfortunately, the very scriptures that PFAL itself refers to as the "Revealed Word of God", Mike refers to as "unreliable remnants". So it is very clear that what Mike refers to as "mastery of PFAL" really means something quite different than learning and skillfully applying the real information that PFAL tries to convey to those that study it.
What Mike says and what PFAL says are in many places - diametrically opposed. So, in a nutshell, what Mike is really saying is nothing more than "follow me".
CoolWaters - You asked, "So there is not a spiritual realm and a physical realm? Is that what you are saying?
Essentially, yes, to both questions.
I believe that there *are* normally invisible intelligences who try to influence human decisions, but I don't think this requires the existence of a seperate "spirit realm".
From John 14:30 we learn that demons are limited in space. From Daniel 10:13 we learn that angels also are limited in space. From the truth that the mystery was not known until it was first revealed to Paul, we learn that demons and angels are limited in time. I think angels and demons both inhabit the same space/time continuum that we do.
True, they appear to have access to some "laws" of physics that we don't yet understand, but that doesn't mean they aren't subject to the same physics as ourselves.
We were taught that there are two seperate "realms", the physical and the spiritual, and that the laws of the spiritual supercede the laws of the physical. I no longer believe that to be the case. Just as figures of speech are legitimate uses, even though they appear to violate the laws of grammar, I believe miracles are physically legitimate, even though they appear to violate classical physics.
Angels are able to pull off some astounding things because they are working at the direction of, and with power provided by the Creator. Demons try to appear spectacular, but when you look at what they can actually do, they are pretty much blowhards. Even the demonic power to inflict sickness is over rated. If they were so hot at it, why didn't they just kill off the whole human race a long time ago?
Demons are con men, grifters, swindlers, scam artists. And here is one of their most widespread, dare I say "ubiquitous", scams. They tell a person that there is a seperate spiritual realm, or astral plane, or dreamtime, or heaven, or shamanistic "other world", and that the laws of this spirit realm supercede the laws of the natural realm. If a person could learn the "laws" of the spirit realm, then he would be able to manipulate things and events in the natural realm. The demons present themselves as guides to the spirit realm. As long as a person is willing to believe and obey the "spirit guides", they will continue to string that person along, tantalizing him with promises that are somehow never quite fulfilled.
I speak from first hand experience.
Deliverance from the demons came when I admitted that God is God, and I am not. I called on God to help me in the name of Jesus Christ, and He delivered me. It has taken a long time for me to overcome magical thinking, though. Wierwille didn't help, with his "christianized" law-of-believing sorcery.
True, they appear to have access to some "laws" of physics that we don't yet understand, but that doesn't mean they aren't subject to the same physics as ourselves.
I get you now...and I think I agree with you.
From what I've learned and experienced and seen written, the "spirits" must use what is already there...i.e., atoms, molecules, etc. A good example of this is ectoplasm, I think.
CoolWaters - I think you are "getting" me. I've found the best assessments of what "demons" can and cannot do to be described in the writings of Jacques Vallee, "Messengers of Deception", "Passport to Magonia", etc.
What the Word of God calls "demons" have appeared throughout human history in disguises that are comfortable to the dominant culture. In the first century they were called "demons", and were not necessarily regarded as evil. In fact, Graeco-Roman depictions of demons are nearly identical with present day illustrations of "angels". The red suits, tails and horns didn't come until the middle ages.
They have also presented themselves as ancestral spirits, elemental spirits, animal spirits, the djinn, the fairy folk, saints, Mary, archtypes of the collective unconscious, and a multitude of other apparitions. Today, they frequently appear as space aliens, the inhabitants of ufos.
I know the leader of one TWI splinter group who is teaching things in opposition to what's clearly written in the Word. He claims that the Holy Spirit is teaching him. If he isn't just lying to sound more impressive, and he really *is* getting help from a spirit, that spirit is a demon palming itself off as the Holy Spirit.
If we don't ground our understanding of spiritual matters in the same Word of God as Jesus Christ did, we are leaving ourselves open to being deceived and snared.
As far as ectoplasm goes, it has almost always been cheesecloth manipulated by a "medium". Wierwille taught many of the things he did about "devil spirits" and their "hookey-pook" because he had been taken in himself by "spiritual" frauds.
Steve what you write about demons is what I think as well and the manner in which twi used those titles are very wrong...
Recently I heard a man who is still believing all of pfal as a life source explain to me why he lied and cheated and went nuts....
He said "Well it was devil spirits".. Like it had nothing what so ever to do with what actions he actualy did "..
He knew what he did was wrong and hurt people alot yet somehow this guy managed to sit in fornt of my face and say "well this area has alot of demons always has so they manipulated the situation".
I said they??? I would use the word YOU!!
No because they take over your mind and change the way you see things and the way you hear things, ...
Like these demons were in a play all by themselves this guy went on like he knew what happened and yet somhow those devil spirts were totaly responsible for it!!!!
that is when I knew twi was a cult and was a twisted way of thinking of never ever taking responsibility for your own actions just blame the devil spirts ya know???
I just read over your posts on this thread from the past few days and you've made some interesting (if not radical) claims. If you don't mind explaining a little more of your thinking on a few points, I'd like to hear more about how you arrived at your beliefs about the natural vs. spiritual world (or realms). (Incidentally, for whatever it's worth, I think your posts are completely on-topic since the idea of the natural vs. spiritual realm was introduced in the initial post to define Wierwille's "ubiquitously hidden" teaching.)
While you've given an interesting history of the origins of the "natural vs. spiritual" teaching, I'm almost certain that the idea of the four kingdoms -- plant, animal, man, God -- was part of early Hebrew religious beliefs. I think you offered a refutation of this view at some point by suggesting that since animals eat plants, and man eats animals, then, if these kingdoms supersede each other, spirit would eat man. While that's an interesting perspective, I don't think the Hebrew beliefs centered around eating customs, but domination. In other words, plants are subject to animals, animals to man, and man to God. I think you're right to question that view. I don't necessarily think that because something is written in the Bible it is automatically true, but there does seem to be plenty of biblical evidence supporting this, beginning in Genesis. Which brings me to my next point . . .
I think it's possible (preferable, even) to take the Bible seriously without taking it literally. I also think that there is a progression of religious thought in the Bible, which reflects the changing influences of other cultures and religions. Religions are, after all, manmade. Maybe there is something true or genuine or real about the concept of God, and maybe religion is man's effort to express or ritualize or rationalize what is experienced of God by man. For instance, you have mentioned the influence of demons, but that is a concept that didn't make its debut until much later in the writings. I'm sure evil influences have been experienced since the beginning of man, but there was no formalized belief system to explain these influences until much later. Same with the resurrection. For much of the Bible, the dead remain dead -- forever. For instance, Job's reward for a life of faith came in this life. There is no promise of a future life. So, anyway, is a concept less biblical, less Christian, if it is introduced at a later date? Do the earliest writings in Judaism, for instance, define Judaism, or is it also defined by later biblical writers who may be introducing new concepts?
You mentioned that you found peace with Jesus Christ after reading Matthew 11:28-30. When I read those verses, I see a paradox. If his yoke is easy and his burden light, why does he use the words "yoke" and "burden" to describe something that is "light" and "easy"? I thought of other verses in Matthew (if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out; judge not that ye be not judged; if you look on a woman with lust, you've already commited adultery; turn the other cheek; love your enemies) and what I see is an impossible ethical standard that Jesus demands of us, which is far from "easy" or "light." That's not to say we shouldn't aspire to it, just that Jesus seemed to understand the paradoxical nature of following God.
I'm a little puzzled by this analogy: "Just as figures of speech are legitimate uses, even though they appear to violate the laws of grammar, I believe miracles are physically legitimate, even though they appear to violate classical physics." Figures of speech are pictures painted with words that create images in the reader's mind which bypass reason to evoke emotion. I'm not sure why you say they "violate the rules of grammar." If they did, they would be a nonsensical sequence of words whose meaning is indecipherable. Additionally, the "laws of grammar" have no authority. They aren't immutable. They are simply a tool for communication. A poorly constructed sentence lacks meaning, but it doesn't defy the order of the cosmos. If a miracle occurs, it more than violates "classical physics." It redefines it. If, for instance, a person flies up instead of down after jumping off a plane, no matter what the cause, then gravity is no longer a law. Sentences make sense when the "laws of grammar" are obeyed. Physical laws exist with or without obedience, with or without understanding.
You said: "I believe that there *are* normally invisible intelligences who try to influence human decisions, but I don't think this requires the existence of a separate 'spirit realm.'"
But if something is "invisible" how can it exist in the physical world? When I first read this, I thought of things like ecstasy or tranquillity or terror which also do not follow the laws of physics in that none of these responses are guaranteed. While most of us might feel terror after free-falling out of that plane, there are a few who might feel tranquillity or ecstasy. There is no "law" governing our responses. But then the more I thought about it, these responses do exist in the physical world as a conglomeration of neurotransmitters traveling through our brains, originating in genetics, experience, and who knows what else. Intelligence, too, exists in chemical form. Are gods and demons products of our brain chemistry? If not, what form do they take if they exist in the physical world?
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
Steve,
There are two arms of flesh I feel you still have too much respect for. One is the scholarly team that has attempted to reconstruct the original scriptures. The other is your own reasoning ability to work with the tools that scholarly team has provided.
These same two arms of flesh I too spent some time in trusting, and I was as disappointed as you were as you described your experiences with a few schools of thought.
We all have to identify SOME flesh source of God?s Word, and our own understanding of it. I tried the one you have described and was disappointed. I went back to an earlier one that worked better, when I finally realized how much I had drifted for it.
It was our trust in the TVT, which differed more and more from PFAL, that was our disappointment in TWI. All my posting is focused on this fact, that we never really got PFAL, not fully. It was quickly watered down and changed in our heads, and we ended up with a close but disappointing counterfeit.
I?ve placed my bet, and after 5 years I?m more and more convinced that it is right.
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E. W. Bullinger
The song "Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!" was written by Povel Ramel. Translated it means "I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts!". He has written over 800 songs usually with very witty lyrics and double entendres. Yet when you hear them a second time they seem to be just a simple and almost childish song.
This song reminds me of this thread because Mike has read into cryptic remarks by VPW and lauded his writings above scripture. This is clearly idolitry and something that I myself have heard VPW preach against. This whole scenario is as goofy as the song.
My own personal thoughts are that Dr. Wierwille is dead and God only works through living leadership. This precedent is found in both the Old and New Testaments. So why should I take my time and master teachings from a dead man or from a class that is no longer available? This is as foolish and nutty as the outlandish lyrics of the song.
EWB
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Oakspear
Mike:
Surely you've figured out by now that your opinion is not going to go unchallenged! By all means, don't wait for those who disagree with you to "run out of gas" before launching into a continuation of your one-note theme.
I can see why you, someone who is on a "mission" of sorts, might think that anything that doesn't support your opinion is "clutter" and therefore a distraction, but many others do not think so.
What might non-posters who come here for "the topic" think? Maybe that GreaseSpot is a hodgepodge of ideas and filled with an eclectic collection of ex-Ways who by no means agree on what the Way experience was all about.
Nuttin' wrong wit' dat
:D-->
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mike
Oky Doky Oaky. You talked me into it. I'll graciously allow the tangential discussion, and await my turn to turn to ubiquity.
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CoolWaters
There's only one other place I've ever heard this phraseology used...hmmmmm....
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Mike
(...hmmm. The force is strong in this one... and I've got to protect my secret identity at all costs...)
Oh! Hello Cool Waters,
That's a very lovely dress you're wearing. Did you have to fly all the way to Paris for it?
In case you were wondering, I got that term from.... Trigonometry! Yes, that's the ticket. Trigonometry.
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CoolWaters
Mike! You've got a sense of humor!
I'll be danged...whodda thot? 
:D-->
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CoolWaters
OK, Steve, I'm trying to follow what you're saying...but something's slowing me waaaaaaaayyyyyyy down.
So there is not a spiritual realm and a physical realm? Is that what you're saying?
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Oakspear
Since you were so polite, Mike, I'll forgoe my plan to filibuster your discussion of ubuiquity by quoting the Book of Mormon.
Carry on.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
[This message was edited by Oakspear on May 16, 2003 at 22:45.]
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What The Hay
The person who invented the piano is dead too, so why take time to learn how to master playing the piano?
Although I am far from conluding, PFAL="THE GOD BREATHED WORD", PFAL contains tools to help one master the Word of God, which in turn gives one a greater mastery of life. I believe PFAL is still the greatest assemblage of those tools, even if VPW did take them from various sources.
A workman only becomes skillful when he continues to make use of the tools of his trade. That is his or her choice. If I choose to quit playing the piano, then my skills begin to suffer and I am no longer as skillful at playing the piano as I was once before. It's the: "either you use it or lose it" principle at work.
I don't have a problem with the "Master PFAL" message Mike is bringing to the table. The only problem I have would be with allowing PFAL to master me, not me mastering it. I can't argue the fact there were many leaders in TWI who used PFAL just to become the masters over people. And yes, the true God only works through living leadership, not dead ones. Spiritually, the leadership who used PFAL merely for the purpose of mastering others are worse than those who are physically dead!
I think many people got lazy and allowed TWI/LEADERSHIP/PFAL to master them. The best thing they could have done was get tired of it and leave that brand of leadership. I think that is why many here are sick and tired of hearing what Mike has to say. Yep - I'd hate playing the piano too if someone kept forcing me into doing it. So unlike Mike, I ain't forcing anybody into mastering PFAL. It's their choice if they want to or not.
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Goey
What The Hay,
What other works, if any, have you read or studied that lead you to conclude that PFAL is the greatest of these? I have heard this statement made by other PFAL fans before, but after a bit of probing, it was pretty clear that many had never ventured outside of PFAL and Bullinger to even know what was out there - much less study them. If you haven't studied other works then you have no way to make a fair and honest comparison. Maybe you have, but I kind of doubt it. I think laziness has little to do with why folks are sick and tired of Mike's message. Mike is not trying to force anyone. He is just offering his opinion which he takes much too seriously. What Mike is also doing though, is exalting PFAL, the work of a man, above the real Word of God and then saying that "mastery" of PFAL is the "only" true way to know God.Mastery of PFAL is not necessarily a bad thing, and mastery of certain parts of PFAL would in my opinion be time very well spent, but not because it is the Word of God, but rather because it teaches some pretty good remedial keys on how to come to a greater understanding of the real Word of God which is revealed through scripture.
Unfortunately, the very scriptures that PFAL itself refers to as the "Revealed Word of God", Mike refers to as "unreliable remnants". So it is very clear that what Mike refers to as "mastery of PFAL" really means something quite different than learning and skillfully applying the real information that PFAL tries to convey to those that study it.
What Mike says and what PFAL says are in many places - diametrically opposed. So, in a nutshell, what Mike is really saying is nothing more than "follow me".
Goey
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Oakspear
ubiquity
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Oakspear
...ubiquity
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Oakspear
ubiquity...the word has lost all meaning
:D-->
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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J0nny Ling0
Hi Mike.
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Mike
Howdy.
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J0nny Ling0
How are you?
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alfakat
Jonny--maybe you and mike should get a room....
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Mike
alfakat,
Calm down there. Things are just getting peaceful.
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Steve Lortz
CoolWaters - You asked, "So there is not a spiritual realm and a physical realm? Is that what you are saying?
Essentially, yes, to both questions.
I believe that there *are* normally invisible intelligences who try to influence human decisions, but I don't think this requires the existence of a seperate "spirit realm".
From John 14:30 we learn that demons are limited in space. From Daniel 10:13 we learn that angels also are limited in space. From the truth that the mystery was not known until it was first revealed to Paul, we learn that demons and angels are limited in time. I think angels and demons both inhabit the same space/time continuum that we do.
True, they appear to have access to some "laws" of physics that we don't yet understand, but that doesn't mean they aren't subject to the same physics as ourselves.
We were taught that there are two seperate "realms", the physical and the spiritual, and that the laws of the spiritual supercede the laws of the physical. I no longer believe that to be the case. Just as figures of speech are legitimate uses, even though they appear to violate the laws of grammar, I believe miracles are physically legitimate, even though they appear to violate classical physics.
Angels are able to pull off some astounding things because they are working at the direction of, and with power provided by the Creator. Demons try to appear spectacular, but when you look at what they can actually do, they are pretty much blowhards. Even the demonic power to inflict sickness is over rated. If they were so hot at it, why didn't they just kill off the whole human race a long time ago?
Demons are con men, grifters, swindlers, scam artists. And here is one of their most widespread, dare I say "ubiquitous", scams. They tell a person that there is a seperate spiritual realm, or astral plane, or dreamtime, or heaven, or shamanistic "other world", and that the laws of this spirit realm supercede the laws of the natural realm. If a person could learn the "laws" of the spirit realm, then he would be able to manipulate things and events in the natural realm. The demons present themselves as guides to the spirit realm. As long as a person is willing to believe and obey the "spirit guides", they will continue to string that person along, tantalizing him with promises that are somehow never quite fulfilled.
I speak from first hand experience.
Deliverance from the demons came when I admitted that God is God, and I am not. I called on God to help me in the name of Jesus Christ, and He delivered me. It has taken a long time for me to overcome magical thinking, though. Wierwille didn't help, with his "christianized" law-of-believing sorcery.
All for now.
Love,
Steve
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CoolWaters
I get you now...and I think I agree with you.
From what I've learned and experienced and seen written, the "spirits" must use what is already there...i.e., atoms, molecules, etc. A good example of this is ectoplasm, I think.
Did I get you? Or not?
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Steve Lortz
CoolWaters - I think you are "getting" me. I've found the best assessments of what "demons" can and cannot do to be described in the writings of Jacques Vallee, "Messengers of Deception", "Passport to Magonia", etc.
What the Word of God calls "demons" have appeared throughout human history in disguises that are comfortable to the dominant culture. In the first century they were called "demons", and were not necessarily regarded as evil. In fact, Graeco-Roman depictions of demons are nearly identical with present day illustrations of "angels". The red suits, tails and horns didn't come until the middle ages.
They have also presented themselves as ancestral spirits, elemental spirits, animal spirits, the djinn, the fairy folk, saints, Mary, archtypes of the collective unconscious, and a multitude of other apparitions. Today, they frequently appear as space aliens, the inhabitants of ufos.
I know the leader of one TWI splinter group who is teaching things in opposition to what's clearly written in the Word. He claims that the Holy Spirit is teaching him. If he isn't just lying to sound more impressive, and he really *is* getting help from a spirit, that spirit is a demon palming itself off as the Holy Spirit.
If we don't ground our understanding of spiritual matters in the same Word of God as Jesus Christ did, we are leaving ourselves open to being deceived and snared.
As far as ectoplasm goes, it has almost always been cheesecloth manipulated by a "medium". Wierwille taught many of the things he did about "devil spirits" and their "hookey-pook" because he had been taken in himself by "spiritual" frauds.
Love,
Steve
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mj412
Can I jump in here ??
Steve what you write about demons is what I think as well and the manner in which twi used those titles are very wrong...
Recently I heard a man who is still believing all of pfal as a life source explain to me why he lied and cheated and went nuts....
He said "Well it was devil spirits".. Like it had nothing what so ever to do with what actions he actualy did "..
He knew what he did was wrong and hurt people alot yet somehow this guy managed to sit in fornt of my face and say "well this area has alot of demons always has so they manipulated the situation".
I said they??? I would use the word YOU!!
No because they take over your mind and change the way you see things and the way you hear things, ...
Like these demons were in a play all by themselves this guy went on like he knew what happened and yet somhow those devil spirts were totaly responsible for it!!!!
that is when I knew twi was a cult and was a twisted way of thinking of never ever taking responsibility for your own actions just blame the devil spirts ya know???
thanks
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laleo
Hi Steve,
I just read over your posts on this thread from the past few days and you've made some interesting (if not radical) claims. If you don't mind explaining a little more of your thinking on a few points, I'd like to hear more about how you arrived at your beliefs about the natural vs. spiritual world (or realms). (Incidentally, for whatever it's worth, I think your posts are completely on-topic since the idea of the natural vs. spiritual realm was introduced in the initial post to define Wierwille's "ubiquitously hidden" teaching.)
While you've given an interesting history of the origins of the "natural vs. spiritual" teaching, I'm almost certain that the idea of the four kingdoms -- plant, animal, man, God -- was part of early Hebrew religious beliefs. I think you offered a refutation of this view at some point by suggesting that since animals eat plants, and man eats animals, then, if these kingdoms supersede each other, spirit would eat man. While that's an interesting perspective, I don't think the Hebrew beliefs centered around eating customs, but domination. In other words, plants are subject to animals, animals to man, and man to God. I think you're right to question that view. I don't necessarily think that because something is written in the Bible it is automatically true, but there does seem to be plenty of biblical evidence supporting this, beginning in Genesis. Which brings me to my next point . . .
I think it's possible (preferable, even) to take the Bible seriously without taking it literally. I also think that there is a progression of religious thought in the Bible, which reflects the changing influences of other cultures and religions. Religions are, after all, manmade. Maybe there is something true or genuine or real about the concept of God, and maybe religion is man's effort to express or ritualize or rationalize what is experienced of God by man. For instance, you have mentioned the influence of demons, but that is a concept that didn't make its debut until much later in the writings. I'm sure evil influences have been experienced since the beginning of man, but there was no formalized belief system to explain these influences until much later. Same with the resurrection. For much of the Bible, the dead remain dead -- forever. For instance, Job's reward for a life of faith came in this life. There is no promise of a future life. So, anyway, is a concept less biblical, less Christian, if it is introduced at a later date? Do the earliest writings in Judaism, for instance, define Judaism, or is it also defined by later biblical writers who may be introducing new concepts?
You mentioned that you found peace with Jesus Christ after reading Matthew 11:28-30. When I read those verses, I see a paradox. If his yoke is easy and his burden light, why does he use the words "yoke" and "burden" to describe something that is "light" and "easy"? I thought of other verses in Matthew (if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out; judge not that ye be not judged; if you look on a woman with lust, you've already commited adultery; turn the other cheek; love your enemies) and what I see is an impossible ethical standard that Jesus demands of us, which is far from "easy" or "light." That's not to say we shouldn't aspire to it, just that Jesus seemed to understand the paradoxical nature of following God.
I'm a little puzzled by this analogy: "Just as figures of speech are legitimate uses, even though they appear to violate the laws of grammar, I believe miracles are physically legitimate, even though they appear to violate classical physics." Figures of speech are pictures painted with words that create images in the reader's mind which bypass reason to evoke emotion. I'm not sure why you say they "violate the rules of grammar." If they did, they would be a nonsensical sequence of words whose meaning is indecipherable. Additionally, the "laws of grammar" have no authority. They aren't immutable. They are simply a tool for communication. A poorly constructed sentence lacks meaning, but it doesn't defy the order of the cosmos. If a miracle occurs, it more than violates "classical physics." It redefines it. If, for instance, a person flies up instead of down after jumping off a plane, no matter what the cause, then gravity is no longer a law. Sentences make sense when the "laws of grammar" are obeyed. Physical laws exist with or without obedience, with or without understanding.
You said: "I believe that there *are* normally invisible intelligences who try to influence human decisions, but I don't think this requires the existence of a separate 'spirit realm.'"
But if something is "invisible" how can it exist in the physical world? When I first read this, I thought of things like ecstasy or tranquillity or terror which also do not follow the laws of physics in that none of these responses are guaranteed. While most of us might feel terror after free-falling out of that plane, there are a few who might feel tranquillity or ecstasy. There is no "law" governing our responses. But then the more I thought about it, these responses do exist in the physical world as a conglomeration of neurotransmitters traveling through our brains, originating in genetics, experience, and who knows what else. Intelligence, too, exists in chemical form. Are gods and demons products of our brain chemistry? If not, what form do they take if they exist in the physical world?
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