People are born with breath...so they are indeed alive. Then people can get "born again" and have "spirit", which is a "spiritual life".
People who have breath but no "spiritual life" go on ahead and live out their breath life and then die. People who have "spiritual life" do the same thing, but at some point they are brought back into a new life that is a mixture between breath and "spiritual life"? Is that what is meant when the body that housed breath is resurrected?
I'm really trying to get this...it made no sense to me in PFAL or at any time in twi, so I'm not being argumentative...I really don't get it.
Thanks for all of your help and patience, though. It makes a difference! :D-->
It may be that many other peoples, pagan peoples, were aware of the physical/spiritual dichotomy, besides the men God revealed details of it to. God will work with the vocabulary of the men He selects to receive His revelations. They, in turn, must somewhat work within the vocabularies of the people they serve.
Certainly in our culture, and with almost the same certainty with the ancient Greek culture, there is an easily discernable distinction between observable/measurable entities verses unobservable/immeasurable entities. With Paul and with Victor Paul, God spoke and directed their writings to reflect this dichotomy. It is a useful distinction. Ignoring it, like the TVT did, clouds the ultimate meaning of these revelations.
This forum is about what happened in the Way to us and with us. This thread is about what Dr put into the record.
Regardless of the correctness of your thesis, I think it belongs in the Doctrinal forum. This thread is in this ?About the Way? forum because I contend and demonstrate that this distinction is something Dr taught and he taught it very often, but like so many things that are right under our noses, it got ignored or misunderstood. This misunderstanding gave rise to many of the problems in The Way.
May I suggest that you start a thread of your own so that you can entertain all the people who find this thesis of yours interesting? There are still many more on topic items I'd like to place here when the time is right.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 12, 2003 at 15:41.]
CoolWaters - The body/soul/spirit thing *was* fundamental to PFAL. I no longer believe it to be compatible with things taught in the Word of God. I don't believe the Word of God uses "spirit" to refer to the substance of some mystical, other "realm".
Mike - You are right that VP's teaching about the natural realm/spiritual realm dichotomy was ubiquitous and hidden. However, I believe it was an error, and the more I learn about things, the more convinced of that I become. The idea of a natural realm/spiritual realm dichotomy doesn't come from the Word of God. It comes from Pythagoras by way of Plato's human reasoning. It entered into Christian thinking through neoplatonism, most notably Augustine's. The version Wierwille taught was also strongly influenced by Victorian spiritualism.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - If we read back through this thread, I think we'll see that my posts have been more consistently on topic than many of the others, and my posts have been the result of intelligent reflection, not knee-jerk emotional responses.
I don't believe the Word of God uses "spirit" to refer to the substance of some mystical, other "realm"...The idea of a natural realm/spiritual realm dichotomy doesn't come from the Word of God.
Oh boy. Now I am really confused. Are you saying that it is inherent error to separate a "spiritual" realm from a "natural" realm?
quote:P.S. - If we read back through this thread, I think we'll see that my posts have been more consistently on topic than many of the others, and my posts have been the result of intelligent reflection, not knee-jerk emotional responses.
Well if you want my opinion, I think you?re ignoring Paul?s use of the spiritual physical dichotomy in I Corinthians 15 and many other places. They were Greek people he addressed. They thought that way. God didn?t mind that paradigm one bit at all, and God didn?t give Paul revelation to fight against it. Why are you?
Fine, karmicdebt. You and Steve go and start that exciting thread, and I'll (..yawn..) be sure to read it. I'm sure if you're nice to him, Paw will allow you to keep it in this "About the Way" forum, but I suggest you do it quietly so no one else points out it belongs in the Doctrinal forum.
May I suggest that you start a thread of your own so that you can entertain all the people who find this thesis of yours interesting? There are still many more on topic items I'd like to place here when the time is right.
Mike:
As much as you would like the threads you start to be exclusively about promoting your position, dissent is allowed.
Steve is not changing the subject, nor derailing, but he is disagreeing with you and presenting his reasons why.
The fact that YOU are not convinced by Steve's argument is not relevant. The fact that YOU have decided that YOUR mind is made up is not enough.
Sorry
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
[This message was edited by Oakspear on May 16, 2003 at 22:46.]
Yup....ain`t it a bi---? lol...this sight isn`t like a meeting in twi where you control everything.
It is a shame that you cannot recognise the significance and importance of what others patiently post to you Mike..... your blindness prevents you from recognising the wisdom and merit of what you blown off as clutter.....
That link you posted leads to some very interesting questions about Paul...some of the very same questions I had over 18 months ago. I took my questions to my pastor (an extwi corpse person who mimics twi in every way possible). Instead of going through my questions with me, he mocked me and belittled me.
***********************
Since twi (and PFAL by inference...because PFAL was the indoctrination tool of twi) based its beliefs on an "absent christ", it is especially interesting to note that in PFAL it was encouraged to "read only the epistles for the next 3 months" and "you will not know your own life" (or something to that effect). In the branch where I was involved immediately after taking PFAL, it was common for the response to any question to be, "Have you read the epistles for 3 months? No? Then your questions are not valid because you don't have enough word in your mind to understand the answers."
I've always felt that Paul departed from the teachings of Jesus. Looking back, it makes sense that PFAL would lead to a departure from Jesus.
Not really. I just thought it would be fun for ME to moan and groan about postings, like it's usually directed at me.
I can cull through the clutter later. I sometimes wonder what non-posting readers think who might come here for the topic and are hit with these kinds of distractions. I guess they'll have to wade through it all too.
Now the epistles of Paul are under question. This happens all over in the world of churchianity. Paul was rejected in the first century and now too.
Hey Steve, did you think you were going to inspire this? In my travels I've seen many denominational types who think that Acts and Paul's epistles are not doctrinal. That's just Paul's opinions, they say.
It's kind of interesting how this is coming out into the open. Usually it's pretty well hidden, this rejection of Paul.
Gee what a shame we are interfereing with your *ministry* with our clutter...
So as I understand it....This isn`t a topic or thread for dicussion?....you just want to use gspot exclusively to procyletise (sp?) your material unchallenged.. I think that it is a bit unrealistic ....... seeing as we have spent so many years struggeling to be healed from the damage wrought by the implementation of vp`s teachings.
[This message was edited by rascal on May 13, 2003 at 12:31.]
Do you think the healing is working when people are questioning whether Paul's epistles are of God?
Is it legitimate for me (who was also horribly hurt, maybe more than you) to propose a different healing method? Or is the moan and groan method the only one approved?
Mike - You wrote, "...I think you are ignoring Paul's use of the spiritual physical dichotomy in I Corinthians 15 and many other places."
I take it you are referring to I Corinthians 15: 44&46,
44 "It is sown a natural ['psuchikos'= 'soulish'] body; it is raised a spiritual ['pneumatikos' = 'spiritual'] body. There is a natural ['psuchikos' = 'soulish'] body, and there is a spiritual ['pneumatikos' = 'spiritual'] body."
46 "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual ['pneumatikos' = 'spiritual'], but that which is natural ['psuchikos' = 'soulish']; and afterward that which is spiritual ['pneumatikos' = 'spiritual']."
The word translated "natural" in these verses is "psuchikos" ("soulish") rather than "phusikos" ("physical"). Paul is *not* making use of a "spiritual physical dichotomy" in I Corinthians 15. He is contrasting the pre-resurrection "soulish" body with the post-resurrection "spiritual" body. The pre-resurrection body is "soulish" because it is possible to become a "dead soul". It is *not* possible to become a "dead spirit" in the sense of the resurrection spirit, therefore the post-resurrection body is "spiritual". Spirit is not the substance of some mystical, other "realm".
Regarding Plato's theory that there is a senses "kosmos aisthetos" and an invisible "kosmos noetos", Mike, you wrote, "They were Greek people he [Paul] addressed. They thought that way."
Unfortunately for your thesis, the predominant cosmology at the time Paul wrote was Stoicism, not Platonism. According to Stoic cosmology there is only one unitary cosmos. Spirit was considered to be the element air set in motion through its combination with the element fire. The predominant Graeco-Roman worldview at the time Paul wrote did *not* consider spirit to be the substance of some mystical, other "realm". Platonism didn't begin to overtake Stoicism until the catastrophes of the third century struck the population of the Roman empire, two hundred years *after* Paul wrote.
You also wrote, "God didn't mind that paradigm one bit at all, and God didn't give Paul revelation to fight against it. Why are you?"
I sat still and stayed quiet while Wierwille fed me a pack of lies and led me into a trap. I sat still and stayed quiet while the leaders of CES fed me a pack of lies and led me into a trap. I sat still and stayed quiet while Dan Toccini fed me a pack of lies and led me into a trap. I sat still and stayed quiet while Dale Sides fed me a pack of lies and led me into a trap. I'll be cursed if I sit still and stay quiet anymore (Jeremiah 17:5).
I trusted those men. I made their fleshly rationalizations of error my arm. As a result, my heart departed far from the Lord. My life, instead of becoming more powerful and "abundant", became exceedingly miserable.
I am not engaging you, Mike, because I think you are deliberately, maliciously trying to entrap people. I don't think that's the case at all. You had some wonderful times while you were involved with the Way. You saw God work in your own life, and you were able to help other people turn to God so He could work in their lives, too. I can identify with you there. Similar things happened to me. I know your desire to replicate those wonderful experiences, but I don't think we can make it happen by replicating PFAL or the Way.
Some person told you that PFAL was God-breathed and we could bring back the good old days by "mastering" it. You trusted that person, Mike, but that person was lying. Apparently, about five years ago, you committed yourself to avoid considering any "data" that contradicted the lie. Since then your own commitment has forced you to resort to fleshly rationalizations. You have made flesh your arm.
You say that an implied Christ is at the heart of everything you are trying to communicate, and I trust that is your genuine belief. But the Word of God tells us that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks". From the things coming out of your "mouth", I would judge that the words of Wierwille dominate in your heart over the words of the Lord. Is your heart truly where you think it is?
When demons decide to go after a person, they do so by dangling a "carrot" in front of that person's nose. They know what we want, and they promise that we can have it if we just trust them and do what they ask. So, when a person falls for their line and starts doing what they ask, that person finds out that the carrot has moved. "You didn't believe hard enough." "You have not yet achieved sufficient mastery."
As the person strives harder and harder to reach the carrot, it becomes more and more addictive. The noose becomes tighter and tighter around his neck, because of his own pulling.
My life became exceedingly miserable because the harder I pulled, the heavier the yoke became. But that wasn't a good indicator for the position of my heart.
Matthew 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
When I renounced my commitment to the errors I had been taught... and taught myself..., God in His mercy and grace allowed me to turn my heart back to Him through Jesus Christ the Lord. The noose I had constructed of my own commitment was gone.
You posed the question, Mike, "God didn't mind that paradigm one bit at all, and God didn't give Paul revelation to fight against it. Why are you?" I hope you now see better why I fight against error.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - How can you be certain, Mike, that God *didn't* give me revelation to fight this paradigm?
(edited to add P.S. - Steve)
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on May 13, 2003 at 15:42.]
Improper implementation my a--....vp was THE implementor of HIS OWN most DESTRUCTIVE teachings...Everybody else just followed his lead down into the depths depravity.
Mike you may have whatever opinion you choose right or wrong friend....however you want us to believe that your opinion is God`s and THAT I don`t accept.
The healing is working when people are once again learning to search and think outside of the box of twi...it is when we get out of that box that we can hear God`s voice and direction again.
Well, said. I too found the great deliverance I always sought when I finally stopped trying to achieve something by the works of my own hands, or mind if that?s the case, and finally realize that the work was finished in Christ.
My identity is now defined as one who was an enemy of God and is now his son by his grace and only by his grace. He loves me, I study his Word now to learn how much and what he is able to do for others if they choose to believe. The manifestations likewise are given to us, as imperfect people, to serve him better.
God is able to create the heavens and the universe. This idea that there is some level of my own mastery that God needs me to do is foolish in any category not just PFAL. I have nothing available to God that he cannot do himself, with one exception. I can call him Father and direct others to him as Father.
The question has been asked repeatedly of Mike what defines mastery of PFAL? A second question could be asked, what would be the benefit of this mastery once attained? How much more can I have for myself by this endeavor that I do not already have by the free gift of God?
It?s all an issue of identity. If I see myself as the son God made me I can live an abundant life. If I see myself as being deficient in some category (I.E. my knowledge of some subject) I will forever be disappointed in my expectations.
I do not anticipate Mike answering this question with any more logic or simplicity than he answers any other questions, if he even bothers to answer them at all.
His sole purpose is to have his ego fed by seeing his endless words posted on the internet and the subsequent negative attention he garners with his contrary positions.
dizzydog - Cool handle. Sometimes my nieces still call me "Uncle Dog", even though they're all grown up now! Concerning Mike you wrote, "His sole purpose is to have his ego fed by seeing his endless words posted on the internet and the subsequent negative attention he garners with his contrary positions."
I don't think that is the case. I think Mike has been misled into believing that if he can recruit enough "OLGs" to "master" PFAL, our "believing" will reach some critical mass, and the Way will be supernaturally restored to its former glory days. He has demonstrated a lot of guts and commitment. Unfortunately, it is his commitment to error that will eventually strangle him. If he doesn't turn back to truth, he will wind up as frustrated, disappointed, burnt out and bitter as Wierwille himself wound up.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
CoolWaters
OK...I'm getting it...
So, to tie all of this together in my head...
People are born with breath...so they are indeed alive. Then people can get "born again" and have "spirit", which is a "spiritual life".
People who have breath but no "spiritual life" go on ahead and live out their breath life and then die. People who have "spiritual life" do the same thing, but at some point they are brought back into a new life that is a mixture between breath and "spiritual life"? Is that what is meant when the body that housed breath is resurrected?
I'm really trying to get this...it made no sense to me in PFAL or at any time in twi, so I'm not being argumentative...I really don't get it.
Thanks for all of your help and patience, though. It makes a difference!
:D-->
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Mike
Steve,
It may be that many other peoples, pagan peoples, were aware of the physical/spiritual dichotomy, besides the men God revealed details of it to. God will work with the vocabulary of the men He selects to receive His revelations. They, in turn, must somewhat work within the vocabularies of the people they serve.
Certainly in our culture, and with almost the same certainty with the ancient Greek culture, there is an easily discernable distinction between observable/measurable entities verses unobservable/immeasurable entities. With Paul and with Victor Paul, God spoke and directed their writings to reflect this dichotomy. It is a useful distinction. Ignoring it, like the TVT did, clouds the ultimate meaning of these revelations.
This forum is about what happened in the Way to us and with us. This thread is about what Dr put into the record.
Regardless of the correctness of your thesis, I think it belongs in the Doctrinal forum. This thread is in this ?About the Way? forum because I contend and demonstrate that this distinction is something Dr taught and he taught it very often, but like so many things that are right under our noses, it got ignored or misunderstood. This misunderstanding gave rise to many of the problems in The Way.
May I suggest that you start a thread of your own so that you can entertain all the people who find this thesis of yours interesting? There are still many more on topic items I'd like to place here when the time is right.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 12, 2003 at 15:41.]
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CoolWaters
Isn't the body/soul/spirit thing a basic PFAL teaching? It was when I took PFAL.
Flushing out what exactly is meant by body/soul/spirit could mean that some of us get that "hidden teaching" finally.
Then again, it could mean that the "hidden teaching" was too well hidden for comprehension in the senses realm without being in our new bodies.
Maybe that's what PFAL was all about in the first place...?
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Steve Lortz
CoolWaters - The body/soul/spirit thing *was* fundamental to PFAL. I no longer believe it to be compatible with things taught in the Word of God. I don't believe the Word of God uses "spirit" to refer to the substance of some mystical, other "realm".
Mike - You are right that VP's teaching about the natural realm/spiritual realm dichotomy was ubiquitous and hidden. However, I believe it was an error, and the more I learn about things, the more convinced of that I become. The idea of a natural realm/spiritual realm dichotomy doesn't come from the Word of God. It comes from Pythagoras by way of Plato's human reasoning. It entered into Christian thinking through neoplatonism, most notably Augustine's. The version Wierwille taught was also strongly influenced by Victorian spiritualism.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - If we read back through this thread, I think we'll see that my posts have been more consistently on topic than many of the others, and my posts have been the result of intelligent reflection, not knee-jerk emotional responses.
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CoolWaters
Oh boy. Now I am really confused. Are you saying that it is inherent error to separate a "spiritual" realm from a "natural" realm?
Ayup!
:)-->
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Mike
Steve,
Well if you want my opinion, I think you?re ignoring Paul?s use of the spiritual physical dichotomy in I Corinthians 15 and many other places. They were Greek people he addressed. They thought that way. God didn?t mind that paradigm one bit at all, and God didn?t give Paul revelation to fight against it. Why are you?
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karmicdebt
Paul the first heretic
I'll fight against it....
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Mike
Fine, karmicdebt. You and Steve go and start that exciting thread, and I'll (..yawn..) be sure to read it. I'm sure if you're nice to him, Paw will allow you to keep it in this "About the Way" forum, but I suggest you do it quietly so no one else points out it belongs in the Doctrinal forum.
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Oakspear
Mike:
As much as you would like the threads you start to be exclusively about promoting your position, dissent is allowed.
Steve is not changing the subject, nor derailing, but he is disagreeing with you and presenting his reasons why.
The fact that YOU are not convinced by Steve's argument is not relevant. The fact that YOU have decided that YOUR mind is made up is not enough.
Sorry
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
[This message was edited by Oakspear on May 16, 2003 at 22:46.]
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Mike
Oakspear,
You mean I have to wait for them to run out gas before I can start cleaning up all this clutter and get back to topic?
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rascal
Yup....ain`t it a bi---? lol...this sight isn`t like a meeting in twi where you control everything.
It is a shame that you cannot recognise the significance and importance of what others patiently post to you Mike..... your blindness prevents you from recognising the wisdom and merit of what you blown off as clutter.....
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CoolWaters
karmicdebt,
That link you posted leads to some very interesting questions about Paul...some of the very same questions I had over 18 months ago. I took my questions to my pastor (an extwi corpse person who mimics twi in every way possible). Instead of going through my questions with me, he mocked me and belittled me.
***********************
Since twi (and PFAL by inference...because PFAL was the indoctrination tool of twi) based its beliefs on an "absent christ", it is especially interesting to note that in PFAL it was encouraged to "read only the epistles for the next 3 months" and "you will not know your own life" (or something to that effect). In the branch where I was involved immediately after taking PFAL, it was common for the response to any question to be, "Have you read the epistles for 3 months? No? Then your questions are not valid because you don't have enough word in your mind to understand the answers."
I've always felt that Paul departed from the teachings of Jesus. Looking back, it makes sense that PFAL would lead to a departure from Jesus.
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Mike
rascal,
Not really. I just thought it would be fun for ME to moan and groan about postings, like it's usually directed at me.
I can cull through the clutter later. I sometimes wonder what non-posting readers think who might come here for the topic and are hit with these kinds of distractions. I guess they'll have to wade through it all too.
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Mike
Cool Waters,
Now the epistles of Paul are under question. This happens all over in the world of churchianity. Paul was rejected in the first century and now too.
Hey Steve, did you think you were going to inspire this? In my travels I've seen many denominational types who think that Acts and Paul's epistles are not doctrinal. That's just Paul's opinions, they say.
It's kind of interesting how this is coming out into the open. Usually it's pretty well hidden, this rejection of Paul.
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rascal
Gee what a shame we are interfereing with your *ministry* with our clutter...
So as I understand it....This isn`t a topic or thread for dicussion?....you just want to use gspot exclusively to procyletise (sp?) your material unchallenged.. I think that it is a bit unrealistic ....... seeing as we have spent so many years struggeling to be healed from the damage wrought by the implementation of vp`s teachings.
[This message was edited by rascal on May 13, 2003 at 12:31.]
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Mike
rascal,
Do you think the healing is working when people are questioning whether Paul's epistles are of God?
Is it legitimate for me (who was also horribly hurt, maybe more than you) to propose a different healing method? Or is the moan and groan method the only one approved?
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Mike
rascal,
It's the IMPROPER implimentation of Dr's teachings that gave rise to the vast majority of the problems.
May I please have this opinion?
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Steve Lortz
Mike - You wrote, "...I think you are ignoring Paul's use of the spiritual physical dichotomy in I Corinthians 15 and many other places."
I take it you are referring to I Corinthians 15: 44&46,
44 "It is sown a natural ['psuchikos'= 'soulish'] body; it is raised a spiritual ['pneumatikos' = 'spiritual'] body. There is a natural ['psuchikos' = 'soulish'] body, and there is a spiritual ['pneumatikos' = 'spiritual'] body."
46 "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual ['pneumatikos' = 'spiritual'], but that which is natural ['psuchikos' = 'soulish']; and afterward that which is spiritual ['pneumatikos' = 'spiritual']."
The word translated "natural" in these verses is "psuchikos" ("soulish") rather than "phusikos" ("physical"). Paul is *not* making use of a "spiritual physical dichotomy" in I Corinthians 15. He is contrasting the pre-resurrection "soulish" body with the post-resurrection "spiritual" body. The pre-resurrection body is "soulish" because it is possible to become a "dead soul". It is *not* possible to become a "dead spirit" in the sense of the resurrection spirit, therefore the post-resurrection body is "spiritual". Spirit is not the substance of some mystical, other "realm".
Regarding Plato's theory that there is a senses "kosmos aisthetos" and an invisible "kosmos noetos", Mike, you wrote, "They were Greek people he [Paul] addressed. They thought that way."
Unfortunately for your thesis, the predominant cosmology at the time Paul wrote was Stoicism, not Platonism. According to Stoic cosmology there is only one unitary cosmos. Spirit was considered to be the element air set in motion through its combination with the element fire. The predominant Graeco-Roman worldview at the time Paul wrote did *not* consider spirit to be the substance of some mystical, other "realm". Platonism didn't begin to overtake Stoicism until the catastrophes of the third century struck the population of the Roman empire, two hundred years *after* Paul wrote.
You also wrote, "God didn't mind that paradigm one bit at all, and God didn't give Paul revelation to fight against it. Why are you?"
I sat still and stayed quiet while Wierwille fed me a pack of lies and led me into a trap. I sat still and stayed quiet while the leaders of CES fed me a pack of lies and led me into a trap. I sat still and stayed quiet while Dan Toccini fed me a pack of lies and led me into a trap. I sat still and stayed quiet while Dale Sides fed me a pack of lies and led me into a trap. I'll be cursed if I sit still and stay quiet anymore (Jeremiah 17:5).
I trusted those men. I made their fleshly rationalizations of error my arm. As a result, my heart departed far from the Lord. My life, instead of becoming more powerful and "abundant", became exceedingly miserable.
I am not engaging you, Mike, because I think you are deliberately, maliciously trying to entrap people. I don't think that's the case at all. You had some wonderful times while you were involved with the Way. You saw God work in your own life, and you were able to help other people turn to God so He could work in their lives, too. I can identify with you there. Similar things happened to me. I know your desire to replicate those wonderful experiences, but I don't think we can make it happen by replicating PFAL or the Way.
Some person told you that PFAL was God-breathed and we could bring back the good old days by "mastering" it. You trusted that person, Mike, but that person was lying. Apparently, about five years ago, you committed yourself to avoid considering any "data" that contradicted the lie. Since then your own commitment has forced you to resort to fleshly rationalizations. You have made flesh your arm.
You say that an implied Christ is at the heart of everything you are trying to communicate, and I trust that is your genuine belief. But the Word of God tells us that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks". From the things coming out of your "mouth", I would judge that the words of Wierwille dominate in your heart over the words of the Lord. Is your heart truly where you think it is?
When demons decide to go after a person, they do so by dangling a "carrot" in front of that person's nose. They know what we want, and they promise that we can have it if we just trust them and do what they ask. So, when a person falls for their line and starts doing what they ask, that person finds out that the carrot has moved. "You didn't believe hard enough." "You have not yet achieved sufficient mastery."
As the person strives harder and harder to reach the carrot, it becomes more and more addictive. The noose becomes tighter and tighter around his neck, because of his own pulling.
My life became exceedingly miserable because the harder I pulled, the heavier the yoke became. But that wasn't a good indicator for the position of my heart.
Matthew 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
When I renounced my commitment to the errors I had been taught... and taught myself..., God in His mercy and grace allowed me to turn my heart back to Him through Jesus Christ the Lord. The noose I had constructed of my own commitment was gone.
You posed the question, Mike, "God didn't mind that paradigm one bit at all, and God didn't give Paul revelation to fight against it. Why are you?" I hope you now see better why I fight against error.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - How can you be certain, Mike, that God *didn't* give me revelation to fight this paradigm?
(edited to add P.S. - Steve)
[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on May 13, 2003 at 15:42.]
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rascal
Improper implementation my a--....vp was THE implementor of HIS OWN most DESTRUCTIVE teachings...Everybody else just followed his lead down into the depths depravity.
Mike you may have whatever opinion you choose right or wrong friend....however you want us to believe that your opinion is God`s and THAT I don`t accept.
The healing is working when people are once again learning to search and think outside of the box of twi...it is when we get out of that box that we can hear God`s voice and direction again.
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Mike:
I think this whole thread is best summed up by the famous Swedish novelty song from the late 1940's. Here it is in the orginal text:
Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!
Povel Ramel
När som jag härom dan på hemväg mej befann
mötte mej min son med något underligt i hann'.
Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!
Alla sätt jag prövat har vart fel.
Med en yxa högg jag till jag blev stel.
Bordet fick hack,
parkettgolvet sprack, men nöten, den är hel.
Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!
Nej, inte ens med hammare och spik.
Var vägg nu har små gropar här och var,
det är bara kokosnöten som är sig lik.
Det är bara kokosnöten som är sig lik.
allt det andra verkar bendersk kalabalik.
Minns du flygeln, far? Glöm den, är du rar.
Det är bara kokosnöten som är sig lik.
Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!
Jag försökt att krossa'n mot en dörr.
Hur jag dängde måtte jag ha gjort fel.
Dörren gick upp och mamma kom in,
men nöten, den är hel.
Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!
Trots att den gav min mor en ny mimik.
När du henne ser så tror jag att du ler,
det är bara kokosnöten som är sej lik.
Det är bara kokosnöten som är sej lik.
Allt det andra verkar illa gjord mosaik.
Mammas nos blev grann. Hakorna försvann.
Det är bara kokosnöten som är sig lik.
Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!
Inte ens med nitroglycerin.
När jag hade laddat, mycket omsorgsfullt och väl bortåt jag sprang och sen sa det "Pang", men nöten den är hel.
Far! Jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt!
Jag behärskar ej någon sprängteknik.
Huset du ser, det står där inte mer.
Det är bara kokosnöten som är sej lik.
Det är bara kokosnöten som är sej lik.
Allt det andra verkar mera pyromanik.
Röjningen blir lätt, det enklaste man sett.
Det är bara kokosnöten som är sej lik.
EWB
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Goey
Posted by Mike:
Mike, you can have any opinion you want, but that does not preclude folks from calling it hogwash - which is what this one is.
Goey
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dizzydog
Steve,
Well, said. I too found the great deliverance I always sought when I finally stopped trying to achieve something by the works of my own hands, or mind if that?s the case, and finally realize that the work was finished in Christ.
My identity is now defined as one who was an enemy of God and is now his son by his grace and only by his grace. He loves me, I study his Word now to learn how much and what he is able to do for others if they choose to believe. The manifestations likewise are given to us, as imperfect people, to serve him better.
God is able to create the heavens and the universe. This idea that there is some level of my own mastery that God needs me to do is foolish in any category not just PFAL. I have nothing available to God that he cannot do himself, with one exception. I can call him Father and direct others to him as Father.
The question has been asked repeatedly of Mike what defines mastery of PFAL? A second question could be asked, what would be the benefit of this mastery once attained? How much more can I have for myself by this endeavor that I do not already have by the free gift of God?
It?s all an issue of identity. If I see myself as the son God made me I can live an abundant life. If I see myself as being deficient in some category (I.E. my knowledge of some subject) I will forever be disappointed in my expectations.
I do not anticipate Mike answering this question with any more logic or simplicity than he answers any other questions, if he even bothers to answer them at all.
His sole purpose is to have his ego fed by seeing his endless words posted on the internet and the subsequent negative attention he garners with his contrary positions.
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Steve Lortz
E.W. - OOFDAH!?!
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
dizzydog - Cool handle. Sometimes my nieces still call me "Uncle Dog", even though they're all grown up now! Concerning Mike you wrote, "His sole purpose is to have his ego fed by seeing his endless words posted on the internet and the subsequent negative attention he garners with his contrary positions."
I don't think that is the case. I think Mike has been misled into believing that if he can recruit enough "OLGs" to "master" PFAL, our "believing" will reach some critical mass, and the Way will be supernaturally restored to its former glory days. He has demonstrated a lot of guts and commitment. Unfortunately, it is his commitment to error that will eventually strangle him. If he doesn't turn back to truth, he will wind up as frustrated, disappointed, burnt out and bitter as Wierwille himself wound up.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - I'll be off-line for a few days
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