I have one question, though. You wrote, "God loved and sorrowed over the damage, and destruction wrought in EACH believer that vpw betrayed..."
How do you know this? (Not trying to be coy or aggressive...trying to work out things in my mind...things like how do I know that god had anything to do with my life or the lives of others...) Thanks. :)-->
I disagree with your characterization of my stand, and therefore the conclusions you draw do not apply to my, not to my intentions, nor to my message.
You got me wrong on so many details.
You wrote: ?God would NEVER sacrifice a SINGLE much less 100s maybe thousands of sweet pure hearted believers to a sick mans lusts....just to allow HIS word to succeed....for you to lay THAT callous disregard at God?s feet Mike.....is just sick.?
Well I agree that God would never do that, not even to a single person! For you to lay that mischaracterization at my feet is sick and callous.
What?s worse? Sexual lust or the lust for revenge? Or the hate that?s nurtured here toward Dr, and now towards me. Do you think Jesus Christ is all bent out of shape over making sure he gets out all the right words to characterize evil. No. He focuses on love, and light dispels the darkness. You who focus on evil, thinking YOU?RE going to be the savior to root out the evil, you have a surprise coming: you become what you look at. I?d rather focus on the good in God?s Word that He taught Dr and Dr taught us, IN SPITE OF the objection of those who chose to constantly focus on evil.
Dr did a lot of good, and it?s in writing. It?s surviving a huge onslaught.
My God is capable of forgetting sin; is yours?
How long do you evil focusers think your words are going to last?
If you took the time to read ALL of what I?ve written on this subject, you?d have a different picture. Instead you have in mind only my most recent posts, mixed in with what OTHER posters have mischaracterized me by.
The most glaring concussion you jumped to was in regard to TWI failing. In recent posts I was talking NOT about TWI, the corporation, the company. I was talking about how thousands of INDIVIDUALS were hurt in any number of a myriad of ways, financially, educationally, family, sex, heath. Sometimes the hurt was in promises unfulfilled about the relief we would someday get from many woes. Great frustrations are hurts in themselves, and they lead to other hurts.
I was talking about how individuals, not the corporation missed the boat.
How the corporation missed the boat is a WHOLE other story.
So, please read my most recent post again in that light.
What hurt so many was not paying close attention to God's Word. We didn't arm ourselves sufficiently. We didn't go to GOD sufficiently. Dr wasn't responsible for the massive breakdowns in trust and communication that occurred on all remote field locations starting slowly the day after he stepped down as president, linearly increased until a year after his death, after which have sporadically broken out all over in exponential proportions.
Mike, I gotta step in here (since I've now read this thread with only a few mild panic spasms). I will no longer shoulder the blame for what VP and twi did to me or anyone else. My lack of performance in twi was not a license to rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy".
That's like saying Jesus would not have needed to die if mankind had done things right in the first place. (Which I know is the twi-think about what happened.)
Do you seriously want to blame the folks who were hurt?
quote:Many people, especially in the Corps, developed an attraction for the man VPW, or something about him. The attraction to God?s Word and the fine details of what we were taught were often last on the list of many who were more socially minded in their Corps activities.
Let me see if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that there were those who worshipped the man and not the presented god? If so, are you releasing the man from responsibility for his actions as a worshipped icon?
quote:It?s NOT so much disobedience to advanced teachings like The Love Way and Christ Formed In You that messed things in general. It was more an IGNORANCE of the fine details of the KJV Bible, and what God had taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL.
Stop here! As soon as it becomes 3rd party ("and what God had taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL"), all information must be qualifiable with the originator of that information and by applying the information systematically and getting the same results. To learn the theory of relativity, you gotta know what Einstein said about it...since it was his theory. Einstein left information in his own hand. Einstein's work can be applied systematically and you will get the same results. The bible's originator is not qualifiable...holy men spoke on god's behalf. The bible's results are not qualifiable...tithing doesn't make everybody rich, praying doesn't make everybody peaceful, studying doesn't make everybody acceptable, etc.
If information is not qualifiable, then it is suspect.
The fact that many of us squelched our suspicions shows the depth of the training, not the ignorance of the trainee. The first party testimony here, on other such boards and in many lives in 3d is that the suspicions were there, but the training was to squelch the suspicion...or M&A the suspicious.
quote:I?m talking about the everyday people on the field, the thousands and tens of thousands. I lived at HQ, and I?m specifically NOT talking about HQ here. I?m talking the majority. It was ignorance of love that soured the collective effort, that had worked so well ten years earlier.
I used to think like this...until I got out of the mindset and realized that having 3somes with my twig leader and his chippy when I was only 16yo was not love at all...and neither was the pedophile ring that preyed at children's fellowship.
Mike, twi never worked properly. Never.
quote:People were ignorant because their focus was the social scene with their peers and inappropriate Dr worship.
People were not ignorant. People were silenced. People were ridiculed and mocked and scorned. People were terrorized and terrified. People were threatened. People were isolated.
quote:Now the disobedience comes in where we were specifically told to master PFAL (?79 Advanced Class, Sound OUt?84, and Last/Lost Teaching) but we blew it off.
We blew off the simple easy instructions to master.
Mike, you can't say "we" and expect it to fly. You don't know who did and who did not blow it off. If you've read any of the threads here or at any other forum, you will know that the vast majority of folks did their darnedest to master the subject material. The subject material was flawed and could not be mastered...unless one wanted to leave one's brains in formaldehyde.
quote:We never sufficiently heard enough of the detailed, deep revelation placed in the PFAL books to rise up, up to the spiritual realm from the physical.
That's because there wasn't sufficient detailed, deep revelation placed in the PFAL books...or anywhere in twi.
quote:That?s where we?d have been protected from this wrath that hit us all. We ALL got hurt in one way or another, some spectacularly, due to a breakdown in the grad COMMUNITY BELIEVING.
Notice the rotten community believing that Joseph, son of Israel suffered unjustly in. His believing was never thought ill of in God?s Word. His brothers community believing was rotten, and he was unjustly thrown in a prison. God released Joseph form his prison. Again, Joseph is unjustly hit, and again God delivered him AND his tormentors.
We disobeyed the simple easy instructions to master.
We were relatively ignorant of the advanced armor Dr taught us.
We engaged in a serious war with the adversary, and we tried to wing it.
Just like Eve we all got creamed.
Have you ever heard of "magical thinking"? An over-simplified definition can be found in this glossary. There's a little more info at this site. You can do your own search to learn more.
Basically, although experienced as normal in certain stages of childhood, magical thinking is associated with mental illnesses in adults. Believing=Receiving is magical thinking. It is recognizing this flaw...this illness...that can, in and of itself, denude PFAL and twi.
quote:This great defeat was widespread, in all places remote for HQ and root locations. This grand defeat started gradually much earlier, but by 1986, one year after Dr died, it was way out of control and passed the point of no return. It had nothing to do with Dr, and everything to do with a lack of the pure Word in our minds.
Mike, is the "pure word" even around?
quote:It?ll never be a return to old past hurts that heals the hurts.
Taking care of a wound always heals the wound.
quote:I see a community that can return to this Word and believe it, and see the progressively complete deliverance God has provided us in those books.
I'll never believe them again...and my life is none-the-worse and far the better. The vast personal testimony from others with the same results as mine negate your above statement.
quote:VP didn?t write the books! The books are bigger than VPW, bigger than the entire team who worked with Dr, the books are bigger than we ever guessed, because they are of God.
Just in case I wasn't clear (and I suspect I wasn't or I wouldn't be posting this), I am NOT saying you're mentally ill. I AM saying that the teachings of PFAL, VPW, et al was based in something that is now associated with mental illness.
I think you should look into magical thinking so that you can consider how PFAL, VPW et al used it to control the masses.
But Mike...You DID say that...you SAID that God covered vp`s transgressions so he could get his message out...therefore...LOGICALLY it didn`t MATTER what he did to other children of God......God didn`t let him get caught...he didn`t CARE about the bievers that were hurt...vp had to be covered at all cost...
Mike I HAVE read all that you wrote....your statement to the contrary is inacurate...I am not a focuser of evil...that is a lie as well.....
YOU are the one trying to focus on evil, by your adamant promotion of a wicked, VILE man who was able to wreak much havoc because he hid behind the illusion he created of being a spiritual, Godly man...
He used GOD for heavens sake... to perpetrate his evil...I hope that he pays DEARLY some day.
YOU want to drag folks back into the dark pit of bondage and legalism that we so desperatly fought to leave....
I`M telling you ... that we aren`t having any of it, and I will continue to do EVERYTHING within my power to expose this evil charlatan who masqueraded as a Man of God .....just as LONG as you continue to keep trying to present his illusion of spirituality ....and suck folks back into his false doctrine.
Has nothing to do with us focusing on evil...it has EVERYTHING to do with leading folks out of the darkness that vpw manufactured.
Victoria you are correct, I cannot back up my statement.... Many different situations in my life these last years has led me to this impression, I am sorry, that is all that it is...an impression, I would HOPE that IF there is a God...and IF he cared about us...He WOULD sorrow at our being heinously used and mistreated ..........placed in the most stifeling of bondage in HIS name.
So far, I?ve only read the first paragraph of your post, but it was so far off, I though I?d respond now to it, and the rest as time permits.
You wrote: ?I will no longer shoulder the blame for what VP and twi did to me or anyone else. My lack of performance in twi was not a license to rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy".?
First of all, the word blame needs to be mitigated. As far as blame goes, I've been using the word "blame" in this discussion as a poor abbreviation for something much more loving and elegant. I'm all for forgiveness. Heck I'm a member of this group that I'm blaming! I forgive me. When I use the word ?blame? it?s more directed AT the misguided actions or lack of action, and not at people. I use ?blame? in the process of identifying bad techniques and replacing them with good techniques. I intend NOT in my use of ?blame? to use it in a process of identifying people to receive the blame. The adversary gets that, ultimately, but in the meantime it?s good for us al to identify the things that we can do better. THAT?S my emphasis whenever I use the crude abbreviation: blame.
**************
Second of all your immensely misguided reading of me lost the TARGET of this ?soft blame? I?ve defined above.
The target of your focus, the ?rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy? was a tiny percentage of all the events that went on. I hardly EVER witnessed first hand any of the things in your focus list.
I was NOT talking of connecting the OLGs soft blame with ?rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy? at all. That list is not the overall hurt that happened. The overall hurt was a bit milder in overt intensity, but MUCH more common than your list of rarities. There are 30 year staffers who never saw any of that. You list involves a tiny circle of tens of people at most. I?m talking about the thousands who were hurt mentally, financially, emotionally, and a few others not including rape and physical attack.
I know relatively nothing of the your list of horrors. Few do, first hand. When you say ?twi folks? you are referring to a small subset of the total.
I connected this OLG soft blame to the massive hurts that directly affected thousands in the areas MOSTLY of their hurt relationship with God as their Father and their relationship and fellowship with Jesus Christ.
I have read your post, your pointless, endless drivel-filled posts. Posts that never go anywhere and if they do, point back to VPW as a god.
I too have no first-hand knowlege of sexual indescretions by vpw. I have seen the plagiarism. Heard the bold claims, checked his teachings of the bible and its history and found them wanting.
Your glorification and oversimplification of twi is astounding and poor scholarship.
You refer only to vpw in all your posts and use him as the only source. I got news for you, he used other people.
A good news story has many sided to get the whole picture. You just say regurgitated (at best) crap and out and out lies at worst.
How are we supposed to trust you and what you says vpw meant to say? What are your credentials.
You posted about people not understanding the fine KJV. People of 21st century aren't supposed to understand it. People of the 17th century didn't either, that's why there were at least seven revisions. And the men who translated it weren't so sure of its veracity either.
You said "i forgive me." Well that's very white of you! What did you do wrong to other people?
VPW stepped away from true Christianity with his own patchwork theology and came out with a piece of spiritual claptrap.
I called you gutless and a coward once. I do not apologize. You have no integrity. You have no honor.
Get some intestinal fortitude and get your head out of your backside and see the light!
quote:No. There's LOTS of other ways it's been confirmed! To us OLGs, that is.
I can see non-OLGs saying that there's little to none substantiation of the 1942 promise, other than Dr and his helpers saying it was so, that God contacted him. It would be a miracle to me if a non-OLG really took up with what I'm saying. Hey! Miracles do happen! But I'm not holding my breath waiting for one here.
Duh! Mike, wake up! This place is loaded with "OLG's". Do you see any agreeing with you, that there are "lots of other ways" that VPW's claim of the 1942 promise is confirmed? Not only are "non-OLG's" not taking up with what you are saying, neither are the "OLG's". It should tell you something.
Mike, If I claimed that God spoke directly to me and promised that He would teach me the Word if I would teach others. And then I went and studied the Bible and the works of some pretty good Bible scholars. And then I put in a book what I had studied, copying quite a bit of it from others and then began teaching it. And as a result of that teaching, thousands of folks learned about God and Christ and many got "blessed". But all the while, I was using my position as a respected teacher to trick and coerce women into having sex with me. And I taught that the loving thing to do was to cover it up and keep quite about it so no one get hurt and that the ministry is not blamed.
Does the fact that folks "got blessed" confirm my claim that God spoke to me and made me a promise? Of course it doesn't. Does the fact that some, if not a lot of what I taught was scripturally sound, mean that God gave it to me directly or that it is worthy of being canonized? Again, no. Neither do the facts that I copied much of what I taught from others and that I was a sex abuser necessarily mean that God did not speak to me, but it certainly would raise some very serious doubts. But the bottom line is that the claim is unsuportable and unprovable.
Your whole thing here is based on the unsupportable claims that God made a covenant with Wierwille in 1942 and that PFAL is God-breathed. Furthermore, you have offered nothing of substance either in the senses realm or in the spiritual to convince anyone to dedicate their life to the "mastery" of PFAL as you suggest. You have not mastered PFAL yourself. You yourself are not "doing all nine all the time." Even die hard Wierwille supporters reject your claim of the "God-breathedness" of PFAL and those collaterals that you deem worthy.
Mike, why should anyone believe anything that you say, much less act upon it? Why do you suppose that you are probably the only person in the entire world, out of billions of people, that sees what you see concerning VPW and PFAL? What makes you so special Mike?
quote: The fact that many of us squelched our suspicions shows the depth of the training, not the ignorance of the trainee.
Well said, CoolWaters. I wish I could say so much with so few words.
Mike, you said, ?I hardly EVER witnessed first hand any of the things in your focus list.?
What did you witness? Was it a one-time occurrence, or did it happen over and over again? Were the hurt told, ?You just need to grow-up spiritually, it is ONLY flesh. The Christ in you hasn?t been touched. Loosen up. It?s grace.? What was your response to the things YOU hardly ever witnessed?
Oh, by the way, TWI is allowed by statute to seek $150,000 punitive damages for each of those two copyrighted works you published, Mikey. Hope you either have 300 grand lying around somewhere, or aren't really that fond of your house...
Toodles!
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
No. There's LOTS of other ways it's been confirmed! To us OLGs, that is...
...I had tons of reasons to be very confident with PFAL all through the 70's and 80's, while NOT taking Dr's word for anything. One by one, item by item, Dr proved himself to me as having the cutting edge answers. In those days I NEVER took Dr's word for anything UNTIL I had checked it out to the best of my ability. I checked it out enough to believe God really did contact him and work on a secret project with him. I believe they succeeded...
It's so because Wierwille said it was so.
Why believe Wierwille? Because God made a promise to him, and Mike believes it.
How do we know that God made this promise?
Because Wierwille said so, and Mike is convinced, therefore, it is so.
The abuses Wierwille either perpetrated or inspired are not important because he "taught us the Word", and Mike believes that God covered it all up.
How do we know it was "The Word"?
Because Wierwille said so, Mike believed it and that settles it.
And if you don't believe everything that Mike said and therefore what Wierwille said, you are not spiritual enough, or aren't an OLG (overweight, lazy, goober???), or some such crap - if you come to different conclusions than Mikey, you are just plain wrong...NO DISCUSSION!!!!
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
[This message was edited by Oakspear on May 01, 2003 at 2:24.]
quote:In Dr?s case, it seems that during his life, God did cover for him, in that it was some pretty inept (5-senses wise) individuals who supposedly did the master covering for him on the natural level. How did they succeed so perfectly? God always kept Dr ten steps away from these (exaggerated?) scandals because of Dr?s believing to do the job that God called him to, bringing forth His Word.
Sorry if I jumped to "concussions" but that's about the biggest crock of b.s. I've ever heard and then you try to pretend like you never said it. Time for a reality check.
By the way, "doctor" (gag) was not always "ten steps away" from the scandals. He was confronted to his face at times, but pre-internet. What means did people have to broadly deseminate information, and more importantly, compare notes, during those days?
Individuals who spoke up had no support group like we have today.
Factor in Wierwille's complete control over the "Way Tree" and you see how God wasn't covering anything.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Ok, I'll stand corrected on the number of steps, but only at the bema, and only if Jesus Christ thinks it's a worth while subject to discuss.
Until then, you MUST see my point that something changed a year or two after Dr died, where large numbers of people suddenly were up in arms. It was very disruptive of good things and hurtful to learning babes and grads.
These large crowds never were before all abuzz before, when Dr was alive. Thousands of them were happy learning God's Word.
Whatever incidents of confrontation you reported, I wasn't there, and they happened 20 years ago. I don't have the ability to sort thorough everyones's old memories, only my own, and even THAT'S shaky. I wont attempt it with others recollections. It's just TOO complicated, and unresolvable.
As for Dr's control over the Way Tree, aren't you confusing Craig's control for Dr's? Dr was out of the guidance role in '82. When did you take the class?
I experienced a GREAT amount of flexibility in the Way Tree outside HQ during the 70's and early 80's. HQ was tough, but I expected that.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 01, 2003 at 4:43.]
You wrote: "Mike, so far nearly everybody is getting the same thing from reading you."
If this were someone else?s thread, I?d just back off at a majority vote like that. But this is my thread, and I don't care what the vote is.
I've seen some glaring mischaracterizations of me and what I say here, and I know my own intentions, having very carefully selected them 5 years ago. I knew this stand was going to be unpopular, so that drove me to REALLY think it through, a lot more than you do with your fundamental paradigms, I?ll bet.
One reason that a large number of people are reading me wrong is because they are emotional and angry with me. And I don't blame many of them them. I think they'll calm down as they eventually see I'm not going to do anyone harm. If I were in their shoes I'd be emotional too.
But then there are a few who (I think) deliberately misconstrue what I say. Why would they do that?
Two reasons:
#1. to deflect and derail my train of thought.
#2. to stoke my fires and built up my steam pressure so that I blow a gasket.
Then there are the slightly less sadistic among you who want to mitigate #2 by only stoking me to the point of me venting steam. Then they can play PopPsychologist of the Internet Airwaves, like Dr Laura, and get me to switch my one track mind off to their special spur truth track with a personalized "t" in truth.
This must be obvious to the non-posting readers out there who are following this soap opera from hour to hour. I'll betcha you readin folks, whether your proPFAL or con, are having a ball watching all this!
Well, I've got some sad news for the popcorn industry, sirguessalot, the rainy season is ending soon in San Diego. That means I'll be able to work more and pay the bills I didn't pay this recent winter because I was posting so much these 4 months. So, this means I'll be cutting back on the frequency of these food fights.
I have an idea how we might do it though. I want to suggest a change in format.
Right now, on my threads ONLY, there's another repeating pattern happening. That makes the third lately, first being the "fake friend" routine, and then the above
deliberate misconstruals that bring in so many of the fans the carneasadage.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot! It's the one that happens so often that it was ubiquitously hidden there from memory for a bit. It's the Colombo Quiz, like what WordWolf did, then Steve Lortz, and now maybe? Schwaigers.... we'll see. Steve Lortz got extra credit for combining several techniques in his "Let's be friends, Mike. Hey! Watch me pull a rabbit out of your hat, Mike. Oops! It's a devil spirit! Sorry about that. Maybe you could subscribe to my Bible newsletter and we could take care of that little critter for you."
So there's all these repeating cycles, and I think we all need to slow down a little, just to think of some different approaches.
Like here's how my threads go:
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
................and so on and so on.
.
.
.
.
So here's the suggested change in format.
I do better when discussing something with only one person at a time.
When I'd go to those trinity churches and discuss the Bible with them, they'd all try to argue at once against everything I said. In the more civil places, they eventually calmed down and let one person speak for them.
It's the same way with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. If they come to the door and I have time to talk, we quickly establish which one is going to be the spokesman.
I think we've reached that point here. When the rains end I'll have less time, the posting frequency won't be so breakneck, and we'll all have more of it to think up better things than "dumbass."
If you folks picked a spokesman, and you're reading on the sidelines, you could wait for a "time out" where no one's posting for a few days, before posting your two cents.
OR, better yet, you could e-mail or private post to the spokesman, some tips and strategies.
OR, you could post them in similarly named side-threads where a public discussion can cruise parallel through the charts with the spokesman's discussion thread.
********************************
Cool Waters,
Back to your letter. Most of the above drifted away from being directly addressed to you, to being addressed to frequent "@mike" posters in general. Sorry about that.
And also, I'm sorry I can't do the private topic thing any more for time reasons. As the rainy season ends and time gets scarce, I don't want to have a third "mailbox" to check every day. I mentioned to you that spreading myself thin was possible, and I now see it's more than that, it's definite. This rainy season thing is very predictable here. I've done this business for 23 years now, and I know what's coming in the next week or so.
So, back to your post. You wrote two similar things, and this is one:
"Maybe you need to try another read...in a few days...after thinking about something totally different."
This is another:
"Have you ever considered that trying to work within the framework of PFAL has an underlying flaw?"
I'll answer the second first, and that will hopefully answer the first, second.
Yes, of course I've considered PFAL to be flawed in various ways and at various times. During those times I was thinking from within the framework, the paradigm, of various non-PFAL approaches. Here's some more detail to this answer I'm giving.
From 1972 to 1985 I often thought about that, and explored other frameworks briefly. Like the trinity. I also visited RC priests, and science circles.
In 1985, after Dr's death, like the next day after he died, I said to myself that it was time too re-think the whole thing, and explore other frameworks, only this time it was to be MORE than briefly. I had held off doing this out of respect to him, but a few years before he died I knew I'd be doing it eventually. It's my nature. I was trained to think this way.
From 1972-85 I often visited trinitarians, even at their churches and fellowships. This was a small part of my ?brief? looking into of other frameworks, but it was about a hundred more times the intensity that most other grads shopped around at that time.
I also shopped around from 1985-98. In 1987, there was almost no info flowing from leadership, but within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not) to be a part of. With relatively no information, decisions were made back then that have never since been reexamined, only built on, or piled on.
I'm glad I was taught to take it slower. It sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy.
In those early days I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one here in SD county did that but me, except for ONE other person. When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two would always be the ONLY people from the other major camp, the GeerSplinters here in SD, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time. No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers. We two were the only shoppers.
Everyone huddled into a quickly decided upon group, and the the leaders would tell them to M&A all other grad groups. The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digging into their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing. I urge patience and info gathering.
-In summary-
You asked: "Have you ever considered that trying to work within the
framework of PFAL has an underlying flaw?"
My answer: YES! More than most, MUCH more than most, and earlier
than most, MUCH earlier than most.
The reason I?ve now finally finished my searching is because PFAL is it!
It REALLY is from God, and it?s HIS best since the first century.
The adversary hid this from us all. But finally some are seeing.
I?ve placed my bet.
Most GSers are new at the re-think game and they are doing it badly: little shopping around. When it comes to PFAL and Dr?s good works, you all are spoiled. You?ve had essentially NO OPPOSITION up until now. Sure, a few proPFALers blew in here, but because they hadn?t mastered the material, they made no real contribution, and they quickly ran out of bullets. You Grease Spotters have had SO little significant opposition for so long now (15 years for some?) that you?re utterly convinced you?re right. I think you all need to take a rest and re-think your arguments. Do you REALLY want to be this obsessive with evil? Focusing endlessly on bad stuff? Ever want to obey God on this?:
Philippians 4:5-8
Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Let your moderation be known unto all men.
The Lord is at hand [in us]. Be careful [anxious] for nothing;
but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving
let your requests be made known unto God.
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Finally, brethren,
whatsoever things are true,
whatsoever things are honest,
whatsoever things are just,
whatsoever things are pure,
whatsoever things are lovely,
whatsoever things are of good report;
if there be any virtue,
and if there be any praise,
think on these things.
Cool Waters, before I got into PFAL, and during, and after, I?ve regularly done top down re-think projects. I?ve done it more than most. Five years ago I reached the end of this process. Thank you for your suggestion, though. It?s just that I did that starting 30 years ago or more.
My background in science taught me how science had to be regularly re-thunk at various points in history. I have diligently applied ALL the techniques I knew to be available to a human being in seeking truth. They worked! God found me.
.
.
.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 01, 2003 at 5:07.]
Well, here goes, socks posting, winsrv.dll error coming up. Expect thread deterioraton in 15 minutes. All systems go. BSOD pending....Next stop, party at Ground Zero. :D--> "Oaks, play it again, you know the one, 'Sounds of Silence' ".
I have to say that although I'm only reponsible for about 15, tops, of the 25,000+ hits on this thread, everytime I scroll past it I get a little rub at the word "ubiquitously" and the way it's used. This may have already come up. Dunno.
It's a minor irritation, on par with say, that little scratch on the inside of the entryway in to our home. I have it down to address that little scuff this summer, so it's a minor irritation at most. I've wanted to offer this illuminating observation and had it down to do so in my little mental pad so here goes. Hope it's not too petty.
Ubiquitous is an adjective and it means:
Being or seeming to be everywhere at the same time; omnipresent: ?plodded through the shadows fruitlessly like an ubiquitous spook? (Joseph Heller). dictionary.com
Ubiquitously is an adverb. A ubiquitously hidden teaching....? One that was/is hidden everywhere at the same time....I dunno. It reads as if to say that it was "everywhere hidden at the same time" by VPW. It seems to imply further that VPW therefore deliberately hid it from view so no one would see it. Or maybe the teaching was hidden until such a time that someone would "find" it.
Another offering of same: "The Hidden Teaching That Was In Everything Taught"....
Still another: "The Teaching That Was Hidden That No One Could Find".
And yet another: "The Teaching That Was Hidden That No One Could Find But That Didn't Work Because I Found It And Now I Know That It Was Omnipresently Hidden So That It Could Be Found But Not Until Someone Found It And Finding It Is Only Part Of The Story".
There are others, but these are possible options, and perfectly servicable and useable if they fill the bill and fit. I offer them expecting no renumeration or recognition of any kind, financial or otherwise, only the personal satisfaction of a job done, if not well, then well, done.
I'm done.
Which reminds me, that "done" is one of those words that, if said enough times, sort of loses it's meaning. Try it...."I'm done. I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done."
After awhile, it sounds weird. "Duhn". Then you have to try another word. "Finished". But then if you say it enough times, you get this whole Swedish-Norwayish-Finland thing going, or is that just me? Anyway...
I'm finished. (note to self, check thesaurus.com for alternate words....)
Mike, bravo! A little "push back" never hurt anybody. Been looking forward for some time now to getting back to "The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW".
Socks, does this mean you're quitting? Say it ain't so.
GSers in toto, seems at one time the greatest scientific and religious minds on the planet all agreed the earth was flat. What a coincidence!
Pawtucket, this is a really great piece of work you have going here. Thank you very much.
Most GSers are new at the re-think game and they are doing it badly: little shopping around.Most GSers are new at the re-think game and they are doing it badly: little shopping around. When it comes to PFAL and Dr?s good works, you all are spoiled. You?ve had essentially NO OPPOSITION up until now. Sure, a few proPFALers blew in here, but because they hadn?t mastered the material, they made no real contribution, and they quickly ran out of bullets. You Grease Spotters have had SO little significant opposition for so long now (15 years for some?) that you?re utterly convinced you?re right. I think you all need to take a rest and re-think your arguments. Do you REALLY want to be this obsessive with evil? Focusing endlessly on bad stuff? Ever want to obey God on this?:
Mike, you gotta quit tossing around these little daggers of insult...unless you don't mind getting them back.
One thing GSers understand (in general) is that the re-thinking thing is a process. That's why this board works for so many people...it helps the process.
Yeah, some of us do it badly (and gawd, Mike, I worse than others too often), but we do it. And we keep doing it. And we want to do it our own way. We don't want somebody telling us how to get out from under the control of somebody else. That's just trading masters.
Mike, if you think for one minute that there is any truth to this, then you're underestimating everybody here...and assuming us dolts.
OUR OWN MINDS are our biggest opposition.
Hearing those curses twi laid upon us playing over and over again in our heads. Every time we've had a set-back we've wondered if this was the time we'd be dead by midnight. I know folks here (myself included) who have been diagnosed with a life-long medical disorder and the very first thing that happens in our heads is the replaying of the curses twi laid upon us.
Mike, we took a chance against all chances and challenged OUR OWN MINDS.
In our own minds we: took the chance of ending up dead by midnight; took the chance of our children getting possessed or murdered by the adversary; took the chance of ruining ourselves financially; took the chance of feeling fear and giving it it's due space in our lives; and we took the chance of not having sound minds.
It is insulting for you to assume that all we did was get mad at twi and throw a bratty little fit.
Don't try to say that I'm misunderstanding you, either. Your words are there in black and white, plain as day. You said what you meant and you meant what you said. Now own up to it and deal with it.
You owe everybody a PUBLIC apology.
Until you're ready to accept this, you're going to be seen as another twi drone (like the Borg drones) who has come to assimilate.
And you're going to get the SCREW ASSIMILATION response.
Don't misunderstand me...I'm not going to be assimilated. PFAL was wrong from the outset. It was founded on a false premise. To attempt to work within that premise is to attempt to live falsely. You're awfully insulting. You base your insults upon the false premises of PFAL. You're repeating the same behavior of your leader(s).
That's what I think. Period. Now my mind is completely closed to you. I'm not reopening it until I see an honest public apology from you to everybody who has ever been victimized by twi.
PS I don't want to consider anything that your god has to say. I don't worship your god. I don't believe that you even know what god you worship. I do know that in my rethinking process I've chosen to disengage myself from the god presented by twi. Please don't measure me by that standard and think you know me...because that is no longer a valid standard in my life.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
CoolWaters
rascal,
Excellent voicing of duly placed anger!
I have one question, though. You wrote, "God loved and sorrowed over the damage, and destruction wrought in EACH believer that vpw betrayed..."
How do you know this? (Not trying to be coy or aggressive...trying to work out things in my mind...things like how do I know that god had anything to do with my life or the lives of others...) Thanks.
:)-->
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Mike
rascal,
I disagree with your characterization of my stand, and therefore the conclusions you draw do not apply to my, not to my intentions, nor to my message.
You got me wrong on so many details.
You wrote: ?God would NEVER sacrifice a SINGLE much less 100s maybe thousands of sweet pure hearted believers to a sick mans lusts....just to allow HIS word to succeed....for you to lay THAT callous disregard at God?s feet Mike.....is just sick.?
Well I agree that God would never do that, not even to a single person! For you to lay that mischaracterization at my feet is sick and callous.
What?s worse? Sexual lust or the lust for revenge? Or the hate that?s nurtured here toward Dr, and now towards me. Do you think Jesus Christ is all bent out of shape over making sure he gets out all the right words to characterize evil. No. He focuses on love, and light dispels the darkness. You who focus on evil, thinking YOU?RE going to be the savior to root out the evil, you have a surprise coming: you become what you look at. I?d rather focus on the good in God?s Word that He taught Dr and Dr taught us, IN SPITE OF the objection of those who chose to constantly focus on evil.
Dr did a lot of good, and it?s in writing. It?s surviving a huge onslaught.
My God is capable of forgetting sin; is yours?
How long do you evil focusers think your words are going to last?
If you took the time to read ALL of what I?ve written on this subject, you?d have a different picture. Instead you have in mind only my most recent posts, mixed in with what OTHER posters have mischaracterized me by.
The most glaring concussion you jumped to was in regard to TWI failing. In recent posts I was talking NOT about TWI, the corporation, the company. I was talking about how thousands of INDIVIDUALS were hurt in any number of a myriad of ways, financially, educationally, family, sex, heath. Sometimes the hurt was in promises unfulfilled about the relief we would someday get from many woes. Great frustrations are hurts in themselves, and they lead to other hurts.
I was talking about how individuals, not the corporation missed the boat.
How the corporation missed the boat is a WHOLE other story.
So, please read my most recent post again in that light.
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CoolWaters
Mike, I gotta step in here (since I've now read this thread with only a few mild panic spasms). I will no longer shoulder the blame for what VP and twi did to me or anyone else. My lack of performance in twi was not a license to rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy".
That's like saying Jesus would not have needed to die if mankind had done things right in the first place. (Which I know is the twi-think about what happened.)
Do you seriously want to blame the folks who were hurt?
Let me see if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that there were those who worshipped the man and not the presented god? If so, are you releasing the man from responsibility for his actions as a worshipped icon?
Stop here! As soon as it becomes 3rd party ("and what God had taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL"), all information must be qualifiable with the originator of that information and by applying the information systematically and getting the same results. To learn the theory of relativity, you gotta know what Einstein said about it...since it was his theory. Einstein left information in his own hand. Einstein's work can be applied systematically and you will get the same results. The bible's originator is not qualifiable...holy men spoke on god's behalf. The bible's results are not qualifiable...tithing doesn't make everybody rich, praying doesn't make everybody peaceful, studying doesn't make everybody acceptable, etc.
If information is not qualifiable, then it is suspect.
The fact that many of us squelched our suspicions shows the depth of the training, not the ignorance of the trainee. The first party testimony here, on other such boards and in many lives in 3d is that the suspicions were there, but the training was to squelch the suspicion...or M&A the suspicious.
I used to think like this...until I got out of the mindset and realized that having 3somes with my twig leader and his chippy when I was only 16yo was not love at all...and neither was the pedophile ring that preyed at children's fellowship.
Mike, twi never worked properly. Never.
People were not ignorant. People were silenced. People were ridiculed and mocked and scorned. People were terrorized and terrified. People were threatened. People were isolated.
Mike, you can't say "we" and expect it to fly. You don't know who did and who did not blow it off. If you've read any of the threads here or at any other forum, you will know that the vast majority of folks did their darnedest to master the subject material. The subject material was flawed and could not be mastered...unless one wanted to leave one's brains in formaldehyde.
That's because there wasn't sufficient detailed, deep revelation placed in the PFAL books...or anywhere in twi.
Have you ever heard of "magical thinking"? An over-simplified definition can be found in this glossary. There's a little more info at this site. You can do your own search to learn more.
Basically, although experienced as normal in certain stages of childhood, magical thinking is associated with mental illnesses in adults. Believing=Receiving is magical thinking. It is recognizing this flaw...this illness...that can, in and of itself, denude PFAL and twi.
Mike, is the "pure word" even around?
Taking care of a wound always heals the wound.
I'll never believe them again...and my life is none-the-worse and far the better. The vast personal testimony from others with the same results as mine negate your above statement.
Mike, I urge you to learn about magical thinking.
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CoolWaters
Just in case I wasn't clear (and I suspect I wasn't or I wouldn't be posting this), I am NOT saying you're mentally ill. I AM saying that the teachings of PFAL, VPW, et al was based in something that is now associated with mental illness.
I think you should look into magical thinking so that you can consider how PFAL, VPW et al used it to control the masses.
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rascal
But Mike...You DID say that...you SAID that God covered vp`s transgressions so he could get his message out...therefore...LOGICALLY it didn`t MATTER what he did to other children of God......God didn`t let him get caught...he didn`t CARE about the bievers that were hurt...vp had to be covered at all cost...
Mike I HAVE read all that you wrote....your statement to the contrary is inacurate...I am not a focuser of evil...that is a lie as well.....
YOU are the one trying to focus on evil, by your adamant promotion of a wicked, VILE man who was able to wreak much havoc because he hid behind the illusion he created of being a spiritual, Godly man...
He used GOD for heavens sake... to perpetrate his evil...I hope that he pays DEARLY some day.
YOU want to drag folks back into the dark pit of bondage and legalism that we so desperatly fought to leave....
I`M telling you ... that we aren`t having any of it, and I will continue to do EVERYTHING within my power to expose this evil charlatan who masqueraded as a Man of God .....just as LONG as you continue to keep trying to present his illusion of spirituality ....and suck folks back into his false doctrine.
Has nothing to do with us focusing on evil...it has EVERYTHING to do with leading folks out of the darkness that vpw manufactured.
Victoria you are correct, I cannot back up my statement.... Many different situations in my life these last years has led me to this impression, I am sorry, that is all that it is...an impression, I would HOPE that IF there is a God...and IF he cared about us...He WOULD sorrow at our being heinously used and mistreated ..........placed in the most stifeling of bondage in HIS name.
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WordWolf
Mike,
you've got a LOT of nerve invoking Joseph and
vpw in the same sentence.
Joseph suffered quietly for YEARS in prison and
never turned his back on God.
When a female FORCED HER affection on Joseph,
a slave, what did he do?
Did he say "well, I've been a slave for years,
I have 'needs', she has 'needs', she's obviously
consenting, and she's hot, so..."?
NO!
He was resolved not to sin against God, and,
when normal methods of reinforcement proved
insufficient, he RAN! He refused to sin against
God, no matter WHO consented.
----------
Compare that to vpw, who insisted on his
creature comforts, and everyhing being EXACTLY
the way he wanted it.
Compare that to vpw, who premeditated sin, who
designated places for sin, figured out targets
for sin, conducted approaches to said targets
(separating sheep from the herd), approached
said targets or sent designates to approach
them, had them sent to places so he could sin,
violated them, then did whatever he "needed" to
gag or silence them when awestruck devotion was
not enough to silence someone who was the victim
of a "Hophni/Phineas" level of sin.
------------
You've got a lot of nerve putting those 2 men
in the same category.
vpw was not fit to loose the sandals of Joseph.
vpw a victim of persecution? Tell that to the
women he violated. Tell that to their families.
Tell that to the people whose lives he ruined
by turning them into accomplices. Tell that to
all the writers that he (and God, you suggest?)
stole from. Tell that to everyone whose
reputation he ruined when they challenged any of
that, and whom he counted on to vanish-before
the internet.
Oh, BTW, their suffering at his DIRECT actions
(not the actions of those who somehow "failed to
follow his teachings") was NOT the result of
their failing to believe or carry out anyone's
instructions. It was the result of being the
victim of someone else's crime. Are you ready
to claim the victims of crimes are generally
responsible for the crimes, since they failed to
believe-away the criminal?
(Edited to correct Joseph's timeline.)
[This message was edited by WordWolf on April 30, 2003 at 19:22.]
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Mike
Cool Waters,
So far, I?ve only read the first paragraph of your post, but it was so far off, I though I?d respond now to it, and the rest as time permits.
You wrote: ?I will no longer shoulder the blame for what VP and twi did to me or anyone else. My lack of performance in twi was not a license to rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy".?
First of all, the word blame needs to be mitigated. As far as blame goes, I've been using the word "blame" in this discussion as a poor abbreviation for something much more loving and elegant. I'm all for forgiveness. Heck I'm a member of this group that I'm blaming! I forgive me. When I use the word ?blame? it?s more directed AT the misguided actions or lack of action, and not at people. I use ?blame? in the process of identifying bad techniques and replacing them with good techniques. I intend NOT in my use of ?blame? to use it in a process of identifying people to receive the blame. The adversary gets that, ultimately, but in the meantime it?s good for us al to identify the things that we can do better. THAT?S my emphasis whenever I use the crude abbreviation: blame.
**************
Second of all your immensely misguided reading of me lost the TARGET of this ?soft blame? I?ve defined above.
The target of your focus, the ?rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy? was a tiny percentage of all the events that went on. I hardly EVER witnessed first hand any of the things in your focus list.
I was NOT talking of connecting the OLGs soft blame with ?rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy? at all. That list is not the overall hurt that happened. The overall hurt was a bit milder in overt intensity, but MUCH more common than your list of rarities. There are 30 year staffers who never saw any of that. You list involves a tiny circle of tens of people at most. I?m talking about the thousands who were hurt mentally, financially, emotionally, and a few others not including rape and physical attack.
I know relatively nothing of the your list of horrors. Few do, first hand. When you say ?twi folks? you are referring to a small subset of the total.
I connected this OLG soft blame to the massive hurts that directly affected thousands in the areas MOSTLY of their hurt relationship with God as their Father and their relationship and fellowship with Jesus Christ.
.
.
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def59
I have read your post, your pointless, endless drivel-filled posts. Posts that never go anywhere and if they do, point back to VPW as a god.
I too have no first-hand knowlege of sexual indescretions by vpw. I have seen the plagiarism. Heard the bold claims, checked his teachings of the bible and its history and found them wanting.
Your glorification and oversimplification of twi is astounding and poor scholarship.
You refer only to vpw in all your posts and use him as the only source. I got news for you, he used other people.
A good news story has many sided to get the whole picture. You just say regurgitated (at best) crap and out and out lies at worst.
How are we supposed to trust you and what you says vpw meant to say? What are your credentials.
You posted about people not understanding the fine KJV. People of 21st century aren't supposed to understand it. People of the 17th century didn't either, that's why there were at least seven revisions. And the men who translated it weren't so sure of its veracity either.
You said "i forgive me." Well that's very white of you! What did you do wrong to other people?
VPW stepped away from true Christianity with his own patchwork theology and came out with a piece of spiritual claptrap.
I called you gutless and a coward once. I do not apologize. You have no integrity. You have no honor.
Get some intestinal fortitude and get your head out of your backside and see the light!
a
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Goey
Mike,
Duh! Mike, wake up! This place is loaded with "OLG's". Do you see any agreeing with you, that there are "lots of other ways" that VPW's claim of the 1942 promise is confirmed? Not only are "non-OLG's" not taking up with what you are saying, neither are the "OLG's". It should tell you something.Mike, If I claimed that God spoke directly to me and promised that He would teach me the Word if I would teach others. And then I went and studied the Bible and the works of some pretty good Bible scholars. And then I put in a book what I had studied, copying quite a bit of it from others and then began teaching it. And as a result of that teaching, thousands of folks learned about God and Christ and many got "blessed". But all the while, I was using my position as a respected teacher to trick and coerce women into having sex with me. And I taught that the loving thing to do was to cover it up and keep quite about it so no one get hurt and that the ministry is not blamed.
Does the fact that folks "got blessed" confirm my claim that God spoke to me and made me a promise? Of course it doesn't. Does the fact that some, if not a lot of what I taught was scripturally sound, mean that God gave it to me directly or that it is worthy of being canonized? Again, no. Neither do the facts that I copied much of what I taught from others and that I was a sex abuser necessarily mean that God did not speak to me, but it certainly would raise some very serious doubts. But the bottom line is that the claim is unsuportable and unprovable.
Your whole thing here is based on the unsupportable claims that God made a covenant with Wierwille in 1942 and that PFAL is God-breathed. Furthermore, you have offered nothing of substance either in the senses realm or in the spiritual to convince anyone to dedicate their life to the "mastery" of PFAL as you suggest. You have not mastered PFAL yourself. You yourself are not "doing all nine all the time." Even die hard Wierwille supporters reject your claim of the "God-breathedness" of PFAL and those collaterals that you deem worthy.
Mike, why should anyone believe anything that you say, much less act upon it? Why do you suppose that you are probably the only person in the entire world, out of billions of people, that sees what you see concerning VPW and PFAL? What makes you so special Mike?
Goey
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JesseJoe
Well said, CoolWaters. I wish I could say so much with so few words.
Mike, you said, ?I hardly EVER witnessed first hand any of the things in your focus list.?
What did you witness? Was it a one-time occurrence, or did it happen over and over again? Were the hurt told, ?You just need to grow-up spiritually, it is ONLY flesh. The Christ in you hasn?t been touched. Loosen up. It?s grace.? What was your response to the things YOU hardly ever witnessed?
Jesse
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Zixar
Oh, by the way, TWI is allowed by statute to seek $150,000 punitive damages for each of those two copyrighted works you published, Mikey. Hope you either have 300 grand lying around somewhere, or aren't really that fond of your house...
Toodles!
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Oakspear
It's so because Wierwille said it was so.
Why believe Wierwille? Because God made a promise to him, and Mike believes it.
How do we know that God made this promise?
Because Wierwille said so, and Mike is convinced, therefore, it is so.
The abuses Wierwille either perpetrated or inspired are not important because he "taught us the Word", and Mike believes that God covered it all up.
How do we know it was "The Word"?
Because Wierwille said so, Mike believed it and that settles it.
And if you don't believe everything that Mike said and therefore what Wierwille said, you are not spiritual enough, or aren't an OLG (overweight, lazy, goober???), or some such crap - if you come to different conclusions than Mikey, you are just plain wrong...NO DISCUSSION!!!!
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
[This message was edited by Oakspear on May 01, 2003 at 2:24.]
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Oakspear
Wait a minute...secret project?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Pirate1974
Earth to Mike. Come in, Mike.
You did write this, didn't you?
Sorry if I jumped to "concussions" but that's about the biggest crock of b.s. I've ever heard and then you try to pretend like you never said it. Time for a reality check.
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Mike
Pirate,
What part do you not like?
What part did I pretend not to say?
Where did I make this pretense?
So, far, just about everyone who?s posted has read what I wrote wrong, very wrong. I?d might suggest you try another read.
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CoolWaters
Mike, so far nearly everybody is getting the same thing from reading you.
Maybe you need to try another read...in a few days...after thinking about something totally different.
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Oakspear
Gimme Ten Steps; Gimme Ten Steps Mister
---------------------------------------------
By the way, "doctor" (gag) was not always "ten steps away" from the scandals. He was confronted to his face at times, but pre-internet. What means did people have to broadly deseminate information, and more importantly, compare notes, during those days?
Individuals who spoke up had no support group like we have today.
Factor in Wierwille's complete control over the "Way Tree" and you see how God wasn't covering anything.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mike
Oakspear,
Ok, I'll stand corrected on the number of steps, but only at the bema, and only if Jesus Christ thinks it's a worth while subject to discuss.
Until then, you MUST see my point that something changed a year or two after Dr died, where large numbers of people suddenly were up in arms. It was very disruptive of good things and hurtful to learning babes and grads.
These large crowds never were before all abuzz before, when Dr was alive. Thousands of them were happy learning God's Word.
Whatever incidents of confrontation you reported, I wasn't there, and they happened 20 years ago. I don't have the ability to sort thorough everyones's old memories, only my own, and even THAT'S shaky. I wont attempt it with others recollections. It's just TOO complicated, and unresolvable.
As for Dr's control over the Way Tree, aren't you confusing Craig's control for Dr's? Dr was out of the guidance role in '82. When did you take the class?
I experienced a GREAT amount of flexibility in the Way Tree outside HQ during the 70's and early 80's. HQ was tough, but I expected that.
[This message was edited by Mike on May 01, 2003 at 4:43.]
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Mike
Ginger Tea,
I sent you two e-mails. One to your profile e-address, and it came back undelivered.
The other on I sent to your older hotmail e-address.
E-mail me.
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Mike
Cool Waters,
You wrote: "Mike, so far nearly everybody is getting the same thing from reading you."
If this were someone else?s thread, I?d just back off at a majority vote like that. But this is my thread, and I don't care what the vote is.
I've seen some glaring mischaracterizations of me and what I say here, and I know my own intentions, having very carefully selected them 5 years ago. I knew this stand was going to be unpopular, so that drove me to REALLY think it through, a lot more than you do with your fundamental paradigms, I?ll bet.
One reason that a large number of people are reading me wrong is because they are emotional and angry with me. And I don't blame many of them them. I think they'll calm down as they eventually see I'm not going to do anyone harm. If I were in their shoes I'd be emotional too.
But then there are a few who (I think) deliberately misconstrue what I say. Why would they do that?
Two reasons:
#1. to deflect and derail my train of thought.
#2. to stoke my fires and built up my steam pressure so that I blow a gasket.
Then there are the slightly less sadistic among you who want to mitigate #2 by only stoking me to the point of me venting steam. Then they can play PopPsychologist of the Internet Airwaves, like Dr Laura, and get me to switch my one track mind off to their special spur truth track with a personalized "t" in truth.
This must be obvious to the non-posting readers out there who are following this soap opera from hour to hour. I'll betcha you readin folks, whether your proPFAL or con, are having a ball watching all this!
Well, I've got some sad news for the popcorn industry, sirguessalot, the rainy season is ending soon in San Diego. That means I'll be able to work more and pay the bills I didn't pay this recent winter because I was posting so much these 4 months. So, this means I'll be cutting back on the frequency of these food fights.
I have an idea how we might do it though. I want to suggest a change in format.
Right now, on my threads ONLY, there's another repeating pattern happening. That makes the third lately, first being the "fake friend" routine, and then the above
deliberate misconstruals that bring in so many of the fans the carneasadage.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot! It's the one that happens so often that it was ubiquitously hidden there from memory for a bit. It's the Colombo Quiz, like what WordWolf did, then Steve Lortz, and now maybe? Schwaigers.... we'll see. Steve Lortz got extra credit for combining several techniques in his "Let's be friends, Mike. Hey! Watch me pull a rabbit out of your hat, Mike. Oops! It's a devil spirit! Sorry about that. Maybe you could subscribe to my Bible newsletter and we could take care of that little critter for you."
So there's all these repeating cycles, and I think we all need to slow down a little, just to think of some different approaches.
Like here's how my threads go:
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
I post a piece of data, and some discussion.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle.
................and so on and so on.
.
.
.
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So here's the suggested change in format.
I do better when discussing something with only one person at a time.
When I'd go to those trinity churches and discuss the Bible with them, they'd all try to argue at once against everything I said. In the more civil places, they eventually calmed down and let one person speak for them.
It's the same way with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. If they come to the door and I have time to talk, we quickly establish which one is going to be the spokesman.
I think we've reached that point here. When the rains end I'll have less time, the posting frequency won't be so breakneck, and we'll all have more of it to think up better things than "dumbass."
If you folks picked a spokesman, and you're reading on the sidelines, you could wait for a "time out" where no one's posting for a few days, before posting your two cents.
OR, better yet, you could e-mail or private post to the spokesman, some tips and strategies.
OR, you could post them in similarly named side-threads where a public discussion can cruise parallel through the charts with the spokesman's discussion thread.
********************************
Cool Waters,
Back to your letter. Most of the above drifted away from being directly addressed to you, to being addressed to frequent "@mike" posters in general. Sorry about that.
And also, I'm sorry I can't do the private topic thing any more for time reasons. As the rainy season ends and time gets scarce, I don't want to have a third "mailbox" to check every day. I mentioned to you that spreading myself thin was possible, and I now see it's more than that, it's definite. This rainy season thing is very predictable here. I've done this business for 23 years now, and I know what's coming in the next week or so.
So, back to your post. You wrote two similar things, and this is one:
"Maybe you need to try another read...in a few days...after thinking about something totally different."
This is another:
"Have you ever considered that trying to work within the framework of PFAL has an underlying flaw?"
I'll answer the second first, and that will hopefully answer the first, second.
Yes, of course I've considered PFAL to be flawed in various ways and at various times. During those times I was thinking from within the framework, the paradigm, of various non-PFAL approaches. Here's some more detail to this answer I'm giving.
From 1972 to 1985 I often thought about that, and explored other frameworks briefly. Like the trinity. I also visited RC priests, and science circles.
In 1985, after Dr's death, like the next day after he died, I said to myself that it was time too re-think the whole thing, and explore other frameworks, only this time it was to be MORE than briefly. I had held off doing this out of respect to him, but a few years before he died I knew I'd be doing it eventually. It's my nature. I was trained to think this way.
From 1972-85 I often visited trinitarians, even at their churches and fellowships. This was a small part of my ?brief? looking into of other frameworks, but it was about a hundred more times the intensity that most other grads shopped around at that time.
I also shopped around from 1985-98. In 1987, there was almost no info flowing from leadership, but within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not) to be a part of. With relatively no information, decisions were made back then that have never since been reexamined, only built on, or piled on.
I'm glad I was taught to take it slower. It sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy.
In those early days I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one here in SD county did that but me, except for ONE other person. When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two would always be the ONLY people from the other major camp, the GeerSplinters here in SD, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time. No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers. We two were the only shoppers.
Everyone huddled into a quickly decided upon group, and the the leaders would tell them to M&A all other grad groups. The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digging into their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing. I urge patience and info gathering.
-In summary-
You asked: "Have you ever considered that trying to work within the
framework of PFAL has an underlying flaw?"
My answer: YES! More than most, MUCH more than most, and earlier
than most, MUCH earlier than most.
The reason I?ve now finally finished my searching is because PFAL is it!
It REALLY is from God, and it?s HIS best since the first century.
The adversary hid this from us all. But finally some are seeing.
I?ve placed my bet.
Most GSers are new at the re-think game and they are doing it badly: little shopping around. When it comes to PFAL and Dr?s good works, you all are spoiled. You?ve had essentially NO OPPOSITION up until now. Sure, a few proPFALers blew in here, but because they hadn?t mastered the material, they made no real contribution, and they quickly ran out of bullets. You Grease Spotters have had SO little significant opposition for so long now (15 years for some?) that you?re utterly convinced you?re right. I think you all need to take a rest and re-think your arguments. Do you REALLY want to be this obsessive with evil? Focusing endlessly on bad stuff? Ever want to obey God on this?:
Philippians 4:5-8
Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Let your moderation be known unto all men.
The Lord is at hand [in us]. Be careful [anxious] for nothing;
but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving
let your requests be made known unto God.
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Finally, brethren,
whatsoever things are true,
whatsoever things are honest,
whatsoever things are just,
whatsoever things are pure,
whatsoever things are lovely,
whatsoever things are of good report;
if there be any virtue,
and if there be any praise,
think on these things.
Cool Waters, before I got into PFAL, and during, and after, I?ve regularly done top down re-think projects. I?ve done it more than most. Five years ago I reached the end of this process. Thank you for your suggestion, though. It?s just that I did that starting 30 years ago or more.
My background in science taught me how science had to be regularly re-thunk at various points in history. I have diligently applied ALL the techniques I knew to be available to a human being in seeking truth. They worked! God found me.
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[This message was edited by Mike on May 01, 2003 at 5:07.]
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socks
"Change is good. You go first"....dilbert.
Well, here goes, socks posting, winsrv.dll error coming up. Expect thread deterioraton in 15 minutes. All systems go. BSOD pending....Next stop, party at Ground Zero.
:D--> "Oaks, play it again, you know the one, 'Sounds of Silence' ".
I have to say that although I'm only reponsible for about 15, tops, of the 25,000+ hits on this thread, everytime I scroll past it I get a little rub at the word "ubiquitously" and the way it's used. This may have already come up. Dunno.
It's a minor irritation, on par with say, that little scratch on the inside of the entryway in to our home. I have it down to address that little scuff this summer, so it's a minor irritation at most. I've wanted to offer this illuminating observation and had it down to do so in my little mental pad so here goes. Hope it's not too petty.
Ubiquitous is an adjective and it means:
Being or seeming to be everywhere at the same time; omnipresent: ?plodded through the shadows fruitlessly like an ubiquitous spook? (Joseph Heller). dictionary.com
Ubiquitously is an adverb. A ubiquitously hidden teaching....? One that was/is hidden everywhere at the same time....I dunno. It reads as if to say that it was "everywhere hidden at the same time" by VPW. It seems to imply further that VPW therefore deliberately hid it from view so no one would see it. Or maybe the teaching was hidden until such a time that someone would "find" it.
Another offering of same: "The Hidden Teaching That Was In Everything Taught"....
Still another: "The Teaching That Was Hidden That No One Could Find".
And yet another: "The Teaching That Was Hidden That No One Could Find But That Didn't Work Because I Found It And Now I Know That It Was Omnipresently Hidden So That It Could Be Found But Not Until Someone Found It And Finding It Is Only Part Of The Story".
There are others, but these are possible options, and perfectly servicable and useable if they fill the bill and fit. I offer them expecting no renumeration or recognition of any kind, financial or otherwise, only the personal satisfaction of a job done, if not well, then well, done.
I'm done.
Which reminds me, that "done" is one of those words that, if said enough times, sort of loses it's meaning. Try it...."I'm done. I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done.I'm done."
After awhile, it sounds weird. "Duhn". Then you have to try another word. "Finished". But then if you say it enough times, you get this whole Swedish-Norwayish-Finland thing going, or is that just me? Anyway...
I'm finished. (note to self, check thesaurus.com for alternate words....)
-----------------------------
quack
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seaspray
Mike, bravo! A little "push back" never hurt anybody. Been looking forward for some time now to getting back to "The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW".
Socks, does this mean you're quitting? Say it ain't so.
GSers in toto, seems at one time the greatest scientific and religious minds on the planet all agreed the earth was flat. What a coincidence!
Pawtucket, this is a really great piece of work you have going here. Thank you very much.
Party on.
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CoolWaters
Mike, you gotta quit tossing around these little daggers of insult...unless you don't mind getting them back.
One thing GSers understand (in general) is that the re-thinking thing is a process. That's why this board works for so many people...it helps the process.
Yeah, some of us do it badly (and gawd, Mike, I worse than others too often), but we do it. And we keep doing it. And we want to do it our own way. We don't want somebody telling us how to get out from under the control of somebody else. That's just trading masters.
Mike, if you think for one minute that there is any truth to this, then you're underestimating everybody here...and assuming us dolts.
OUR OWN MINDS are our biggest opposition.
Hearing those curses twi laid upon us playing over and over again in our heads. Every time we've had a set-back we've wondered if this was the time we'd be dead by midnight. I know folks here (myself included) who have been diagnosed with a life-long medical disorder and the very first thing that happens in our heads is the replaying of the curses twi laid upon us.
Mike, we took a chance against all chances and challenged OUR OWN MINDS.
In our own minds we: took the chance of ending up dead by midnight; took the chance of our children getting possessed or murdered by the adversary; took the chance of ruining ourselves financially; took the chance of feeling fear and giving it it's due space in our lives; and we took the chance of not having sound minds.
It is insulting for you to assume that all we did was get mad at twi and throw a bratty little fit.
Don't try to say that I'm misunderstanding you, either. Your words are there in black and white, plain as day. You said what you meant and you meant what you said. Now own up to it and deal with it.
You owe everybody a PUBLIC apology.
Until you're ready to accept this, you're going to be seen as another twi drone (like the Borg drones) who has come to assimilate.
And you're going to get the SCREW ASSIMILATION response.
Don't misunderstand me...I'm not going to be assimilated. PFAL was wrong from the outset. It was founded on a false premise. To attempt to work within that premise is to attempt to live falsely. You're awfully insulting. You base your insults upon the false premises of PFAL. You're repeating the same behavior of your leader(s).
That's what I think. Period. Now my mind is completely closed to you. I'm not reopening it until I see an honest public apology from you to everybody who has ever been victimized by twi.
PS I don't want to consider anything that your god has to say. I don't worship your god. I don't believe that you even know what god you worship. I do know that in my rethinking process I've chosen to disengage myself from the god presented by twi. Please don't measure me by that standard and think you know me...because that is no longer a valid standard in my life.
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CoolWaters
Well, I tried. Thank you. But it all got to me in the end. Sigh.
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