I think one key is understanding scripture is getting away from the KJV and trying the newer ones. The New International Version is a great Bible and there a plethora of types out there that appeal to almost any demographic.
The New Living Translation is a great version as well and brings the scriptures alive.
KJV0-only types are almost cultic in their admiration of the book. There were several versions of KJV from 1611-1753. One book said to covet your neighbor's wife, another said the unrighteous will inherit the earth.
And the KJV is based on faulty newer manuscripts, unlike NIV which is based on older, more reliable manuscripts.
Wierwille's definition of ????? (agape) was hooey.
An overwhelming number of the words translated "love" are ????? (agape), with only a small amount translated from other Greek words. In fact ????? is even used of "loving" darkness in I John.
So many times in teachings, Wierwille or others would come to the word "love" and pronounce solemnly that it was ????? (agape), like it was unique or something, when it was the normal, usual, Koine word for "love".
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
In a much earlier post above, you wrote: ?...I would presume that the subtleties of the natural/spiritual dichotomy need be mastered before progressing to the possibly salacious subtleties.?
Actually, this document HELPS in getting to see how important natural/spiritual dichotomy is. It is a teaching aid for this thread.
You wrote: ?As you can see from the questions I posted above, I don't understand what Wierwille meant when he wrote about natural and spiritual "realms". There are probably others in the same boat. Is it wise to post your possibly salacious material before you have led us into mastery of the natural/spiritual dichotomy??
I can?t lead anyone into this mastery, that?s the Master?s job. I can point it out. I myself have not yet mastered it, so I?m not the teacher here, really. I?m just a student with a little head start, and I?ve joined the cheer leading squad.... er... as a ... ...as A COACH!....? Yeah! That?s the ticket. I?m just pointing out what?s been pointed out to me and some of the veracity of it. It speaks for itself better than I can, but it just involves a little adjustment of the meekness mode for reading.
I cant lead anyone into mastery, but I AM willing to share my notes, like some of the 81 page references, AND pass on what I?ve learned like the stuff from the record, but this mastery thing is all a part of the one-on-one relationship with the Father, and with His Son. It?s got to be a personal thing with you and the Father, knowing that He is the real author as you read for mastery. I can?t do that for anyone else, but myself, and that?s a big enough job for me. I?m not qualified to be the teacher here.
**********
Then in a more recent post you wrote: ?Thanks for responding to my questions, and thanks for admitting that you don't have answers for all of them. I believe our style of interacting is improving, even though we don't agree.?
Thanks. I cherish the less emotions discussions. It?s quite easy to get edgy when dealing with several unfriendly as all get out posts, and then run into a friendly one, and not see it. It?s easy for us all to both read hostility into something addressed to us when it?s not intended to be there, AND it?s also very possible to write something with NO INTENDED venom, but somehow the words chosen, and the cadence, just rub the someone raw that?s addressed to. Typing heart by ASCII characters can lead to a host of miscommunications. Maybe that?s what happened with the insult Oakspear felt earlier.
You then wrote : ?Shortly after leaving TWI in 1987, I began re-examining PFAL, asking the questions I was so subtly discouraged from asking while involved. I would read the material, or listen to the tape, and ask three questions: what did he say? what does that mean? and how does that line up with other things I know about the Word of God??
I know how you felt about those who discouraged asking questions. Did you see the post I did about me hounding Dr at the 1972 Rock with several pages of questions? He was VERY gracious about it. In later years I saw those who discouraged it, and I mini M&Ad them when it came to my questions. I sought out the thinkers to ask, and often found them. They were usually NOT in positions of dealing with hundreds and thousands of people. They weren?t high profile leaders who were always on stage at the Rock. I still keep in touch with some of them.
You then wrote: ?I came to the conclusion that some things were right, and some things were just wrong; some things Wierwille taught lined up with the Word of God, and some did not. That is still my conclusion.?
Same with me, for 1986 to ?98, until I came across Dr?s last teaching and some grads who were into the mastery thing for a few years already. Then EVERYTHING changed as they showed me the same things I?ve showed here, and more.
Having some exposure to philosophy, I can see better where you?re coming from. These disciplines make a good show of banging words together as if they were algebraic objects, or Euclidean proofs. But, since they lack God?s hand of guidance, they fail miserably in being as practical as they promise. I suggest you look at Dr?s use of these words, natural/spiritual/realms and such, on a MUCH simpler level than philosophy books treat these items. The grad audience of Dr?s were not all treated with the meat and potatoes of academic philosophy, but more the fine wines from the wedding in Cana of Galilee. Remember too, that the class was designed so that a 12 year old could take it. Like a course in genetics it was not, PFAL was not trying to outdo or augment high brow philosophy. It's supposed to be simpler than that, so we can use it everyday.
**********
You then wrote: ?You gave the following loose definitions for the two "realms": natural realm... all that the 5-senses can detect and interact with; spiritual realm... all that can be detected and interacted by way of manifestations of the spirit.?
First of all, thanks for recognizing the looseness of those definitions. I?m still working a lot of this.
Directly adjoining the above, you the wrote: ?Here is another honest question: How can a person distinguish between information that is coming from the holy spirit and information that is coming from demonic sources? Or in other words, how can a person detect counterfeit manifestations of the spirit??
Add a third possibility to holy and unholy manifestations: 5-senses guesses! Now it?s even MORE complicated.
This question plagued me for DECADES! I thought that the upper leadership had this nut cracked, and they could tell the difference, but I knew I had NO handle on it whatsoever. Then, starting in 1983, one by one, all the top leaders I knew or knew of, all of them demonstrated to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were faking the receiving of revelations from the Father. This total lack of a handle on telling the difference was MOST unpleasantly displayed in how they all handled (or didn?t handle) the ministry meltdown. I was flabbergasted with each and every such letdown over a decade?s time. Each one utterly surprised me, because all of them had been such great believer leaders in the years prior to 1982. Their sense knowledge language and leadership skills had well served many thousands of us grads, so I mistakenly thought they'd do well again in the meltdown crisis. But as they drifted into their own thing, and then 1982 came when God changed the course of His guidance to the ministry, their decreased insight and effectiveness became open and obvious. This question of yours is at the heart of why things went so wrong in TVT and the meltdown and the early splinters, when so many good and powerful people had holy spirit and a lot of knowledge, yet were powerless to handle it. Solving this detection problem would sure be a boon, wouldn?t it!
Ok, now here?s the good news! This question of yours was finally answered for me these recent years. I haven?t fully implemented the answer, but that?s what life is all about, fun learning. I have posted a little on this situation, and I have written several friends about it. To save time I?m going to paste in some of those discussions, and then we can talk about it later.
These pasted in paragraphs are from e-mails of recent years, so please forgive the sudden lurches in context in the way they open:
***
One of the greatest errors of all us grads (me included)
was that we often mislabeled 5-senses hunches as revela-
tion. We haven't learned to operate all nine that well.
This is humbling, but I know we're just not that super-
natural...yet.
We haven't yet fully utilized key #4 of walking in the
spirit: Study the Word much; what you can learn by the
5-senses God expects you to learn. We all got on ego trips
of getting revelation and it sunk us. When you can go to
the races and get all ten horses right by revelation, let me
know and I'll be very interested in your hunches possibly
being revelation. We have not yet learned to distinguish
between revelation and 5-senses hunches, or worse yet, rev-
elations from the adversary (See page 93 of Vol.III) That's
why we need to master by the 5-senses what God gave us
in those PFAL books, and THEN we can start to see things
spiritually.
***
Jesus Christ received revelation from the devil in the desert. See "The Word's Way" page 93 at the bottom of the page. Because he had mastered God's written Word he recognized that these revelations were from the wrong source and rejected them. Jesus Christ got revelation from the devil through the oppression process, not by possession. They tried to push his buttons, but he shook them off and they failed.
***
It depends on our mastery of all nine manifestations. If I could go to the races, like Dr mentions in the Advanced Class, and get all ten horses correct by revelation, then I'd feel confident enough to consider that it's the true God telling me in a more important situation, and not a counterfeit revelation from splitfoot, or a dumb 5-senses hunch.
Did you know that we can receive revelation from the adversary too? Jesus Christ did, in the desert. Dr mentions this in Vol.III page 93 with emphasis. Jesus could tell it was not from his Father because he had mastered the Word. The visions he had there were not like the traditional artwork of the adversary being red skinned, horns and tail. It was probably a BEAUTIFUL vision, designed to fool Jesus in to thinking it was from God. Jesus saw through it by the words that the vision spoke. Jesus had mastered the written Word. The OT was much more protected from corruption than the NT was for many reasons.
Until we've obeyed what God told Dr to tell us in his last teaching and master the books, we can't tell the difference between 5-senses hunches, Godly revelation, or the counterfeit MOST of the time. I realize we can operate the revelation manifestations SOME of the time, but it's hit or miss. We can't get all ten horses correct...yet. If anyone tells you he can, he's lying. A lot of the top ministry leaders allowed us to think they were skilled at getting revelation. They lied. We're ALL still beginners, and that's why Dr told us to master what he taught us.
***
In this case I think George's policy may have well originated with God. Once in a while we all seemed to get accurate revelations. Because I saw lots of profit from his refusal, and God is getting the glory, he may very well have hit a spiritual home-run THIS time.
However, until he gets serious about mastering Dr's books, his ability to get revelation will be as sporadic and shaky as it always was, before Dr died in the good old days. This is the case for us all. None of us have grown up into our full potential, but as we really work those books, and refuse distraction, we will certainly grow.
There are hidden truths in Dr's books. You already saw some in the form of foretelling of the ministry meltdown, and our return to the Fountain as you were reading the PFAL book last month. There are many more.
Dr's books are the ideal arena for learning revelation. Hearing from God means hearing or seeing something the 5-senses can't hear or see. Out in the world we face many devilish 5-senses situations that confuse us. These situations contradict God's Word and will. Turning to God's direct voice in that contaminated environment is very difficult.
In reading Dr's books we are again in a 5-senses environment, but this one is NOT confusing, because it is God-breathed. It does NOT contradict God's Word. As we master and learn the 5-senses messages in those books, with repeated and thorough readings, we can then turn our attention to hear God whisper to us the hidden messages HE, GOD, put in there that our 5-senses would never pick up. Also the 5-senses readings help us build protection against devilish doctrines that are all around out there. Our adversary can and will attempt at times to whisper wrong meanings to us as we work the Word.
((((((( Did you know that it's very possible to receive a revelation from the devil, and not be possessed? Jesus Christ heard a voice and saw a vision, but he recognized the contradictions with the written Word. Dr says on page 93 of Vol.III that this was a revelation to Jesus from the wrong god. It wasn't like the devil looked ugly, with red skin, a tail and horns. He probably was the most beautiful thing Jesus had ever seen in his life! But Jesus wasn't fooled or distracted because he had spent so much time with the written Word. They had some excellent texts available back then. Jesus never spent any documented time correcting the texts because they didn't need it. Dr said we aren't responsible for thoughts that occur to us (devil revelations), but we ARE responsible for not letting them lodge (take up residence) in our hair. We're also responsible for mastering the excellent texts God has provided us: Dr's books )))))))
If we only dabble with the 5-senses message in Dr's books, then our attention is required in each reading to focus on the surface meaning, and this necessary focus on the 5-senses message can distract us from operating the revelation manifestations and God's direct voice. Besides, why should God tell us these hidden meanings if we've not yet been faithful stewards of the open 5-senses message?
If we only dabble with the 5-senses message in Dr's books, and then go out into the devil's world, or even to the KJV, we could hear from the wrong god and not recognize his contradictions with the PFAL book material, because it's not yet mastered. That's why it's hard to hear God's voice in the world.
But Dr's books are the perfect place to learn.
Step one: master the 5-senses message.
Step two: keep reading, and hear the secrets.
Dr wrote some things on this conjunction of subjects (secrets, receiving revelation, and mastery of God's Word) in The High Calling" (Vol II p. 182).
In a race or in a track meet, the finish line deter-
mines the winner. Paul says he will press toward the
finish line which will culminate in the prize of the
high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Verse 15:
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus
minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise
minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
The word ?perfect? means ?initiated ones,? those
who have been brought into the inner secrets of the
great mystery, that mystery which was kept secret
from the foundation of the world and was first made
manifest unto the Apostle Paul as recorded in Ephe-
sians 3:3. Paul here is talking to those who know that
mystery, the initiated ones, those who have gone
further with the Lord than just being pledges or
neophytes or carnal Christians. ?Let us therefore, as
many as be perfect [initiated], be thus minded? ? be
intent on reaching the finish line. ?And if in anything
ye be otherwise minded,? ? if you have any
other goal ? ?God shall reveal even this unto you? by
a continued accurate study and right dividing of The
Word or by revelation.
It takes time, and patience for us to attain this 5-senses mastery, and that's only half the task, because the spiritual mastery is then required. The changes this demands of our thinking processes can be the most difficult things we ever have to do, but they're the most important also. This is why Dr put the "master the books" instructions for all us dabblers as the most important item in that most important last teaching of his. And this is why these instructions were so hidden by the adversary. Dr's MOST important message to us is in that teaching.
These two pages are an astounding addition to the subject of ALRI, the Arena for Learning Revelation and Impartation: H.S. book (7th ed) pages 8 and 212. I urge you to look them up.
On page 8 it's the bottom paragraph, midway:
"opening up the Word by divine revelation."
On page 212 it's the second paragraph, midway:
"Will you read it under the guidance of the
Holy Spirit, in the light of it's own statements."
Well, Steve, that was a long answer to a short paragraph, and there?s more, but it?ll have to wai until next time.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 24, 2003 at 22:57.]
You mentioned ?The Septuagint uses the word "agape" a bunch of times in it's translation of the Hebrew OT into Greek.?
There?s a very vague memory of mine to that effect... I think... but I can?t remember if there was a mitigating factor. This should be looked into further. What are your sources for this?
You continued: ?It is clear that the word "agape" was in common use some 300 or so years before Pentecost. Agape "love" was not absent before Pentecost.?
How sure are you that it?s not words SIMILAR to agape? I have another vague and old memory that Paul coined the term himself? I remember it like a Bible dictionary or something non-TWI.
You then wrote: ?Prior to Pentecost, Jesus used the word agapao quite a few times.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth [agapôn] me: and he that loveth [agapôn ] shall be loved [agapêthêsetai] my Father, and I will love[agapêsô] him, and will manifest myself to him.
The tense is clearly in the present at the time that Jesus said these words.?
It?s also the case that John has a few ?flash-forwards? to Pentecost in that Jesus speaks of being born again. One such flash-forwards in John is accompanied with explicit text that Jesus was talking about the future when the spirit was to be given.
You closed with: ?The notion that folks cannot "agape love" without being born again and renewing their mind is unbiblical and nonsensical.?
Well, I don?t know about the Septuagint or other use of the WORD agape (or however it?s spelled), but here is something I do know. Let?s look closely at the text under question.
?The Love Way? has this in it?s opening sentences:
?As we understand this new kind of love, we come to the great realization
that there really never was any love before the day of Pentecost, that the
love that came with the day of Pentecost is a spiritual thing on the inside,
and it only comes into concretion, in manifestation, as we put it on in our
mind and manifest it forth.?
Now, the purpose of this thread is to help us read these materials AS THEY WERE INTENDED to be understood. Dr?s use of vocabulary gives us two clues as to what he REALLY means in this sentence. Do you see the two words? In earlier posts I mentioned that certain words were used exclusively by Dr to emphasize the spiritual.
Remember in the class, when teaching I Cor.12 and one of it?s earlier verses, Dr summarizes the verse by saying ?No man can REALLY say that Jesus is Lord, but by pneuma hagion!? The two spiritually hot words in the sentence above are found in ?great realization? or ?great REALization? and the word really.
I don?t know if the word agape, or something like it, was floating around prior to Paul.
I don?t know if Paul?s USE of this word, his own usage, his own definition, his use of it was a historical first or not.
I seriously doubt that Paul?s definition (really God?s) was floating around at the time of the Septuagint. That?s impossible.
I know that the sentence above, in Dr?s vocabulary, means this:
As we SPIRITUALLY understand this new kind of love, we come to
the great SPIRITUAL realization that there never SPIRITUALLY was
any love before the day of Pentecost, that the love that came with the
day of Pentecost is a SPIRITUAL thing on the inside...
There may have been five senses similarities to agape in some rare people?s lives, some of the time, like super phileo, but Pentecost made the real stuff, the SPIRITUAL stuff available for the first time, to anybody and everybody on a full time, lifetime basis.
No, the words are not simply "similar". My source is the Septuagint as posted by ccel.org
Jesus was not speaking in a "flash forward" in the verse I quoted. He was speaking in "real time" as is evidenced by the Greek morpohology. It is Greek 101 and not arguable.
quote:I don?t know if the word agape, or something like it, was floating around prior to Paul.
Well you do now Mike. Unless you choose to reject the "data" that I have just given you.
I could care less what the "Love Way" has in it's opening sentences unless it lines up with scripture.
What Penecost made "available" was the holy spirit.
You wrote: ?I think one key is understanding scripture is getting away from the KJV and trying the newer ones. The New International Version is a great Bible and there a plethora of types out there that appeal to almost any demographic.?
I agree with you about that key. Their appeal is part of their problem. I agree that reading other Bibles is very useful, and I did do that a lot. Prior to 1982 we were supposed to study the available Bible as best as possible. Reading other translations is a KEY part of Bible mastery.
But one inherent problem in these appealing Bibles is that their producers DO THINK about demographics. If they didn?t automatically think that way they?d never get into the publishing business, or they would last long there. The theology of the demographics affects the non-inspiration part of their end product.
Remember, if one word is changed, then it?s no longer God?s Word, at least not in that area. In a translation almost ALL the words are changed. Translation itself is a somewhat subjective process, and when the subject matter is near and dear to the translators, their emotions and connectivity to their church?s tradition will guarantee many such places where the Word is lost. The adversary engineers such subtle effects on a very high priority basis when the passage deals with the power. Thwarting the power is essential to his smooth operation. Revealing that power again was the calling Dr answered.
***
You wrote: ?The New Living Translation is a great version as well and brings the scriptures alive.?
I like that one. I?ve also spent a lot of time in the NASB and The New English Bible.
***
You wrote: ?KJV0-only types are almost cultic in their admiration of the book.?
I have met people who are not only that type, but their whole denomination is based on the KJV being God-breathed. I have a books titled ?Which Bible?? and it?s put out by The ?Which Bible?? Society. Not joking.
***
You wrote: ?There were several versions of KJV from 1611-1753. One book said to covet your neighbor's wife, another said the unrighteous will inherit the earth.?
Those sound like mistakes in early printings, and not so much deliberate versions.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 25, 2003 at 0:09.]
This ?Love Way? teaching was put on the radio and played over and over all over the country in the 70?s, plus it was sold in the bookstore on cassette. I?ve never seen it in written form from Dr?s day, but the tape sounds very much like it was being read by Dr from a prepared written script. It was radio, with little dead air, and a lot of information was being packed into many other mini teachings like it in format.
I wonder how many people never heard it or never saw it until now? Or how many haven?t thought of it for decades.
Here?s the next part.
*********************************
The Love Way
Victor Paul Wierwille
The Teacher Broadcast
Part II
You know, that the greatest thing in the world today is the manifestation of the love of God in the renewed mind. To the end that we are born again of God's spirit and have renewed our mind on what we have in Christ Jesus, and we manifest forth this love of God, we really become new men and women in concretion in the senses realm.
In the great chapter of I Corinthians 13, in the first verse of that chapter, we read: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels," and that's tremendous, "and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal". The word "charity" is the word agapao. There are three words used, three different Greek words used, and translated "love." One is the word agapao, the other is phileo, and the other is eros. Both phileo and eros were in the world, practiced and operated before the day of Pentecost, and still are, but these basically are nothing more than sex love or sex attraction, or animal love, that's all. But the word agapao has a new connotation. It signifies and means the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation. And though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, which you do when you speak in tongues, but if I do not have the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, there's nothing wrong with the speaking in tongues of men and of angels, but I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
We have forgotten that love will make a man a success. It will put him over where nothing else will make him a victor. Love never fails, it is the Master's rule. It will lead a man out of selfishness, out of weakness and failure, into the very strength and ability of Christ. There is no force in the world that it cannot dominate. It makes us wanted, it makes us a blessing, it enables us to take the place of Jesus Christ here upon earth. I have sometimes wondered what would happen if a man really dared to go all the way out to the limit of love. Some have neglected it, acting as though it did not exist, even in those who are born again of God's spirit, utterly ignoring its very existence, and yet, somehow or other they want the Father's help in time of need. Ladies and gentlemen, love must be enthroned in our lives in manifestation. It must govern our lives. You know, Paul's friends had challenged him one day, saying that he was off his rocker. They accused him of being beside himself. But he wasn't. Why? Because the love of God had so set him on fire that he was an extension, a manifestation in the senses realm, of the man who goes all out with the love of Christ. His very being was saturated with the passion that sent Jesus to the cross.
You know, you can understand I Corinthians 10:24 where the Word of God declares, "Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good." When love, the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, is at white heat, selfishness stops reigning. Selfishness, my friend, is a deadly poison. It is poison to the spirit, it is poison to the Body of Christ, it causes practically all the diseases in the human body. It is a strange thing how selfishness has never been feared by man. He fears it in another man, but he never fears it within himself. Selfishness is the cause of all the wars that have come, and of all the strikes, the battle between labor and capital, the strifes in politics, and in every other realm.
The epistle of I John, chapter 4, verse 16, was one of the most difficult verses of scripture that I ever had to face up to. It didn't seem to me that I could ever master it or understand it or bring it into concretion. This is what it says, "And we know and have believed the love which God has..." In our case, God is love, and he that abideth in love abideth in God and God abideth in him. Here are some great truths. First I have come to believe in love. I believe that the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation is the best there is to allow to govern my life. I have come to believe that the best method of ruling a home, a business, a government, is the love of God in the renewed mind. There are very, very few people who ever believe in love. They believe in force, they believe in intrigue, they believe in self and sense-knowledge judgments and arguments, but do they believe in love?
If in your heart, the innermost part of your being manifested in the renewed mind, you believe that love is the way and that it is the best way, then you must act it. Not only is it best, but it is the only way. It is the way that you are going to walk regardless of how anyone else walks. You're going to walk the love way. If you renew your mind, and when you do, you discover that you are living in the love realm. Your home is in love. And whenever you step out of love, you step into darkness and unhappiness. And so you must learn to stay put, to live in the love way. You have found that living in love is actually living in the highest and sweetest fellowship with the Father, it is actually living with Him. He has come into your body to make it His home.
And in I John 4:17, which is the verse following 16 which I read a moment ago, it says, "Herein is love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, even so are we in this world." Isn't that wonderful? What does that mean? It means that love is perfect in itself. But it also means that this love of God, the agapao, which is ours at the time of the new birth, must now be put on in our minds, and we have to walk in this newness of love, and it must gain the ascendancy in our life. When this love of God in the renewed mind becomes the rule of my life, I grow up into it until my life is dominated, it is ruled, it is governed by it, and that gives me a quiet fearlessness in His presence as well as in everybody else's.
You see, God is love and I am a love child if I'm born again by the spirit of God, and as I renew my mind I walk in the realm of love. I think in the terms of love. I act according to the rule of love and my whole life is pitched to the key of love. Then you can understand that there is no fear in love. There is fear in everything else, but the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation has no fear. And when you're out of love, everybody says and does things that they are basically afraid to face up to. You think things outside of love that you wouldn't want to become public property. But this perfect love in the renewed mind casts out all fear, because fear has punishment. You know, my friend, the Word of God says he that feareth is not made perfect in love. He's made perfect spiritually on the inside, this is a work of God, but not on the outside because this man has not put on the mind of Christ, he has not renewed his mind and manifested forth the greatness of this wonderful love of God.
So you see, you can understand that if we walk the love way, and the love life, we will say nothing, we will do nothing, we will resolutely refuse to think anything outside of the love of God. Can't you see what a fearless life that would be? No matter what happens, you know you're walking in love. When you speak you know it is love. Ephesians 4:15 illustrates this great truth where we read, "But speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things unto him, who is the head, even Christ." Speaking out of love is speaking out of tune and off key. It breaks the harmony. It jars the ears of men and women who are walking and endeavoring to walk in love.
So our whole life swings into the orbit of this new kind of love, this new creation life, when we manifest forth the greatness of the love of God which we have spiritually, in our walk, by renewing our minds and manifesting it forth as the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation. This is why Christian workers, when they are born again of God's spirit and manifest forth the greatness of the power of God, it just melts the men and women with whom they walk and talk and to whom they minister. What soul winners we are! What mighty men and women of God we are, when we manifest forth the greatness of the love of God in the renewed mind! This is the great walk, the great privilege of being so dynamically different and powerful in this our day and in our time.
?...we REALLY become new men and women in concretion in the senses realm.?
.
?We have forgotten that love will make a man a success. It will put him OVER where nothing else will make him a victor.?
.
?There is no force in the world that it cannot DOMINATE.?
.
?...it ENABLES us to TAKE THE PLACE of Jesus Christ here upon earth.?
.
?I have sometimes wondered what would happen if a man REALLY dared to go all the way out to the limit of love.?
.
?They accused him of being beside himself. But he wasn't. Why? Because the love of God had so set him on fire that he was an extension, a manifestation in the senses realm, of the man who goes ALL OUT with the love of Christ. His very being was saturated with the passion that sent Jesus to the cross.?
.
?When love, the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, is at WHITE HEAT, selfishness stops reigning.?
.
?It is a strange thing how selfishness has never been feared by man. He fears it in another man, but he never fears it within himself.?
.
?There are very, very few people who ever believe in LOVE. They believe in force, they believe in intrigue, they believe in self and sense-knowledge judgments and arguments, but do they believe in LOVE??
.
?It is the WAY that you are going to walk regardless of how anyone else walks. You're going to walk the love way.?
.
?If you renew your mind, and when you do, you discover that you are living in the love realm. Your home is in love. And whenever you step out of love, you step into darkness and unhappiness. And so you must learn to stay put, to LIVE in the love way.?
.
?...this love of God, the agapao, which is ours at the time of the new birth, must now be put on in our minds, and we have to walk in this newness of love, and it must gain the ASCENDANCY in our life.?
.
?And when you're out of love, everybody says and does things that they are basically afraid to face up to. You think things outside of love that you wouldn't want to become public property.?
.
?So you see, you can UNDERSTAND that if we walk the love way, and the love life, we will say nothing, we will do nothing, we will resolutely refuse to think anything outside of the love of God.?
.
?Speaking out of love is speaking out of tune and off key. It breaks the HARMONY. It jars the ears of men and women who are walking and endeavoring to walk in love.?
.
?So our whole life swings into the ORBIT of this new kind of love...?
.
?What MIGHTY men and women of God we are, when we manifest forth the GREATNESS of the love of God in the renewed mind!?
.
*******************************************
(I should do this for Part I someday too. Maybe I?ll add them in here, or at the end of Part I.)
*******************************************
.....Steve Lortz, here?s a good ?realm? definer.
?Selfishness is the cause of all the wars that have come, and of all the strikes, the battle between labor and capital, the strifes in politics, and in every other realm.?
This is something I wrote last year, and it seems to fit the context here. It fits with the big question you asked about detecting the conterfeit, and it fits with the thread topic.
CLOSE COUNTERFEITS
Do you remember Dr telling us that the counterfeit is SOOOO close to the genuine that only an expert can tell them apart? He often related this to us, so I'm sure you do remember. He was very adamant about this, and really emphasized just how exceedingly close the counterfeit could be. Yet, I was perplexed about this, in that most counterfeits didn't look all that close to me.
After taking PFAL I thought it was easy to spot where denominations were off the truth. I could see how FEELINGS could be counterfeit in that they could be very convincing, yet totaly off. But I couldn't ever see any of the counterfeit DOCTRINES out there that were extremely close to the truth. Where ARE these tricky fakes!
I'll soon get to what was missing in my logic on that topic, but first I want to digress slightly to my favorite topic: collateral mastery. It is essential that this mastery, which we were repeatedly told by Dr to achieve, begins in the realm of the 5-senses, and NOT spiritually.
This brings up one of the many lame excuses I've seen for NOT obeying Dr's final instructions to master the collaterals. It seems most of us (me included) had such a big ego cooking at the time of Dr's death that we were somewhat "above" going back to such elementary material. I think a lot of us got tricked into thinking that we could master the material spiritually and skip the 5-senses approach. Why crack the books again if God could simply tell us what we need to know when we need to know it?
From the "16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit" Dr taught us in Key #4:
"Study the Word much. What you can know
by the five senses God expects you to know."
First we master the collaterals 5-senses wise, THEN we can master it in our spiritual understanding. It's in our 5-senses study of the collaterals that we learn HOW to recognize the difference between true revelations from our Father and false revelations from the devil. Any attempt to spiritually master, without the 5-senses mastery effort, is not only doomed to failure, it's opening up to devil spirits. Remember, the counterfeit is SOOOO close to the genuine, and versions are too blunt to get us that sharp.
So, now we're back to the topic I questioned earlier: that the counterfeit is so close to the genuine that it takes a master to tell them apart. Why is it that I couldn't see ANY counterfeits out there that were that close. All the ones I could see were FARRRR from the Word we were taught.
Please name for me a close counterfeit; one that takes a MASTER to spot the flaws therein. All the denominations and doctrines out there are laughable in their idiocy. It may be difficult to persuade a person who's swallowed such a counterfeit, but it's not difficult to see that that's what happened. The doctrine is easy to spot as off. WHAT was Dr talking about?
He was talking about us. We hold IN OUR OWN MINDS the close counterfeits.
They're so close that WE can't tell them apart from the genuine, that's why we allowed them to be built in our own heads. This is the reason we have TOTALLY failed at all nine all the time. This is the reason we never have seen a single raising from the dead. I'm not talking about hospital-bed death pronouncements; I'm talking about four-days-buried and stinketh dead, like Lazarus. We've totally failed at that kind power.
Are YOU where you thought you'd be in the power 25 years ago? Would you have continued in all this if someone told you 25 years ago that if you went to the revelation races in 2002 you'd not be able to do any better than chance, even after 25 years of study? We have fallen far from our expectations from way back then, and there has to be a reason. It's because we all fell for the counterfeits. We didn't master what we were told to master, and we were not masterful enough to spot and purge our own error.
God gave the revelation to Dr to write the collaterals so that we can someday saturate our minds with them, and spot the counterfeits we have made for ourselves. We'll NEVER spot them without that mastery. The devil is smarter than us and our approximate understanding from translations, and versions. In fact, the devil had a strong hand in the production of these materials JUST SO THAT they would trick us. They're devoid of authority. They are useful tools at times, for a beginner, but devoid of authority.
The same holds for the critical Greek manuscripts. Most people don't realize that the critical Greek manuscripts are very modern. The oldest is from 1550, the Stevens text. Stevens undertook a project to rate (thus the word "critical") the ancient manuscript fragments exisiting at that time because they were so very inconsistant. All the critical Greeks manuscripts are the 5-senses products of the critics that compiled them. They are useful tools at times, but devoid of authority. Do you include in your research perspective that the critical Greek manuscripts are devoid of authority? That the Greek interlinear is devoid of authority? That Young's Concordance is devoid of authority? All these are useful at times, especially for beginners, but all are devoid of authority.
Many ancient manuscripts were produced by a reprobate church, because they all forsook Paul. They were also under the gun, being heavily persecuted. The copies of the originals they made are very unreliable. The same is the case for the Aramaic and Hebrew manuscripts of the New Testament. This is much less the case for the OT manuscripts we have today, but they don't have the Mystery. Ancient fragments are useful tools at times, but devoid of authority.
So where do we get the pure Word of God to learn His voice accurately enough to spot the counterfeit in our own heads or counterfeit revelations? I know of a set of writings that are bigger than us, in which we dare not change a single word. These are writings of Dr's, which are the final product of the 1942 promise, that we can grow up into.
Outside of this set of writings, all we have are approximations that we feel totally free to change, correct, white-out, and modify whenever we happen hear some convincing reaseach. We need to be able to put in our hand a book that's God's Word line by line, word by word accurate. Otherwise our lives are mere churchianity, with sporadic healings, a few warm fuzzy feelings, and ending with a massacre by the devil.
This is the reason the collaterals were written: God gave us something that's line by line, word by word accurate. Then He told us to master them by way of His same spokesman He had write them.
Did you know that we can get revelation from the devil? Jesus got it in the desert (The Word's Way p.93). If the devil could slip revelation through to Jesus how can we be immune to it?
Jesus learned from the much more accurate scriptures he had available, and from them he learned to tell the difference between the his Father and the adversary. It wasn't red skin and horns that tipped off Jesus in the desert. The adversary comes as an angel of light. If he was smart, he'd have looked just like what the cultural expectations of God's appearance were at that time. Those visions of splitfoot that Jesus saw in the desert must have been spectacularly beautiful. Anyone who seriously explored the psychedelic sixties spiritual scene can testify to this counterfeit beauty.
Remember, Jesus was a novice at having spirit at the time of his recorded desert temptations. How did he know this was not his Father talking to him in the desert? He knew from the devil's deviations from the accuracy of the Word Jesus had mastered at that time. Jesus had mastered the Old Testament scriptures from his youth by way of his five senses. If the OT manuscripts at that time were off, then John the Baptist would have fixed them for him. For several reasons they were extremely accurate at that time. Just like our collaterals.
In order to walk the Word them we must know the Word, not just some parts of it, not just paraphrasings of some parts of it, not just approximations. If you want to FULLY walk the True Word in True Agape Love, you must master the details of God's Word. Otherwise your walk will be SOOOOO close, but stuck in the counterfeit and powerless.
It's ONLY by mastering the collaterals that we are able to really, FULLY love God. Deuteronomy Chapter Six instructed Israel HOW to love God by saturating their lives with His written Word. Mastering the collaterals means we need to saturate our lives with them (and ONLY them) like Deut 6 perscribes.
Once we REALLY love God by loving His Word (collaterals) THEN we can really love others too. I've talked to or written to 200 grads in the past 4 years who have all come up with 201 rationalizations to disobey our clear orders to master what was given to us.
I care much about grads. I've seen us all decimated and distracted. I'm not just talking about leader goofups. I'm talking about how we haven't seen the dead raised, and how we haven't seen "all nine all the time" in every member of our PFAL family. I've seen us all going for the crums and not the loaf. I exhort you to get serious about the knowledge God wants us to have from those collaterals that He, God Almighty, produced by way of His servant Dr Wierwille.
Here is an early exhortation from Dr about the degree of mastery we needed. This is from the 1979 Advanced Class (seg.5):
I have set for our people, and it?s set in the book on
?Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,? and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven?t, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it?s utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I?ve discovered as I?ve worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.
There are no valid reasons for us to defy this order. We can't really walk in fellowship with God until we obey to master to this degree. "There still are areas where we got to push ourselves."
In a few previous letters I recounted Dr's urgings that we test everything we believe against the Word of God. Why did Dr tell us to do this?
For the same reason Dr so often warned us of the counterfeit being so close. It's because we were WRONG on so many things. Close, but not close enough to raise the dead.
I have learned to only allow teaching to enter my heart that's in print with VPW's name on it. He's the only modern AUTHORITATIVE spokesman for God, since the first century. There's no need for another spokesman because he said it all. Paul was the ONLY authoritative spokesman for God in the first century, being entrusted with the mystery revelation. All other spokesmen for God back then had to line up with Paul. That's what Peter's dying last words were, in the last chapter of his last epistle. The late dates on the Gospels and Revelation are because it took time for Peter and John to get fully on board with Paul.
If you want to be a spokesman for God you better say the EXACT same things Dr wrote or you are on the slippery slope to counterfeit churchianity. You need to get it down so familiar that the page numbers of where you get stuff will be easy for you to produce to prove it's right. I don't trust memory, not yours, not mine, not Eve's. Eve thought an approximate knowledge of God's Word was good enough. It wasn't good enough when it came to the tough battle. She lost.
Our English versions are useful for those who are just starting to get an understanding of the Father, but they wont help us in the big battles. If they could, surely SOMEONE would have risen up with the power of God at HQ to straighten things out. No one did. NOT EVEN ONE !!! When it comes to mastering the "other" six manifestations mere versions are not close enough.
So, wrapping it up for this topic: the close counterfeits are what satisfy, motivate, and block from power every single PFAL grad (who defy Dr's mastery instructions) out there and every single splinter group. Each and every counterfeit, that each and every grad has embraced, is so close that even these grads of the PFAL class can't tell them apart. The more sophisticated the 5-senses skills a grad possesses, the more close the counterfeit the devil can and will fabricate. THAT's why Dr oftened warned us that only a master of the Word can tell them apart, and THAT's why Dr often told us we MUST master PFAL.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 25, 2003 at 4:11.]
quote:I have learned to only allow teaching to enter my heart that's in print with VPW's name on it.
2Corinthians 4:4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
He's the only modern AUTHORITATIVE spokesman for God, since the first century. There's no need for another spokesman because he said it all.
Despite the fact that he plagiarized part of that "all" that he said from other authors... -->
[...] All other spokesmen for God back then had to line up with Paul. That's what Peter's dying last words were, in the last chapter of his last epistle. The late dates on the Gospels and Revelation are because it took time for Peter and John to get fully on board with Paul.
Peter wrote a gospel? -->
If you want to be a spokesman for God you better say the EXACT same things Dr wrote or you are on the slippery slope to counterfeit churchianity.
Except, of course, in those places where you haven't decided which of his books and classes are in the Official Mike Canon™, and which you have to toss out because they contradict you... -->
You need to get it down so familiar that the page numbers of where you get stuff will be easy for you to produce to prove it's right. I don't trust memory, not yours, not mine, not Eve's. Eve thought an approximate knowledge of God's Word was good enough. It wasn't good enough when it came to the tough battle. She lost.
But, but, Monsignor Mike! If we aren't to trust our own memories, where are we to store all these page numbers? -->
Don't quit your day job yet. You'd starve as a preacher, and if you're trying out for a comedy writer job, the jokes are too long and repetitive.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
quote:Remember, if one word is changed, then it?s no longer God?s Word, at least not in that area. In a translation almost ALL the words are changed.
Horse feathers! It does not matter how many words are changed as long as the concept. precept or idea is communicated as it was intended.
The Word of God is not the paper and ink, which btw is in the realm of the 5 senses. It is rather the idea or concept which is able to live in the heart. Dumbass.
Goey: So, if Wierwille's words are the Word of God, then Moses recorded Eve's error correctly, yet John got Jesus wrong in 10:10 of his gospel. ".. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." VPW says "more than abundant", changing a word and adding a word. Yet, the Word of Vic is the Word of God, so burn your bibles immediately. The Holy Blessed Doctor (praise be unto him) will tell you all the verses you need to know. Do not question the Holy Blessed Doctor (praise be unto him). What you would call errors are only holy commandments to master a greater spiritual understanding of the paper contradictions. When you come to a FULL knowledge, you will, of course, realize this. Spiritually. It will still be bull...., five-senses-wise.
Or it may just be that Mike's a dumbass, as you claim. Close call. -->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
Very good. John 10:10 is from an unreliable remnant. Wierwille's revelation is "fresher" and therefore cannot be construed as changing a word. It is a modern day "original".
But, according to Mike, only folks who can understand Wierwillian English have any chance at mastery of the Word of God. Translating PFAL into another language would, according to Mike, render it void of authority and no longer the Word of God. Word changing only applies to PFAL - the true Word. Who cares about those unreliable remnants?
Goey
[This message was edited by Goey on April 25, 2003 at 13:15.]
I have a question. I've forgotten twi's answer on this. How in the world did they get the fruit of the garden and eating the apple that eve was masturbating? Now if that is a change of words I don't know what is!!!! Just my opinion anyways.
quote:Both of these, the phileo love and the sexual love of the eros, are relatively insignificant and never build a certainty within life or within the depth of the soul of a man which is lasting.
i beg to differ..... VERY significant in THE DOKTOR's "walk"
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
def59
I think one key is understanding scripture is getting away from the KJV and trying the newer ones. The New International Version is a great Bible and there a plethora of types out there that appeal to almost any demographic.
The New Living Translation is a great version as well and brings the scriptures alive.
KJV0-only types are almost cultic in their admiration of the book. There were several versions of KJV from 1611-1753. One book said to covet your neighbor's wife, another said the unrighteous will inherit the earth.
And the KJV is based on faulty newer manuscripts, unlike NIV which is based on older, more reliable manuscripts.
l
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Oakspear
Wierwille's definition of ????? (agape) was hooey.
An overwhelming number of the words translated "love" are ????? (agape), with only a small amount translated from other Greek words. In fact ????? is even used of "loving" darkness in I John.
So many times in teachings, Wierwille or others would come to the word "love" and pronounce solemnly that it was ????? (agape), like it was unique or something, when it was the normal, usual, Koine word for "love".
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Trefor Heywood
Attack the King James, the Authorisedversion?
All I can say is that if the King James was good enough for St Paul then it's definitely good enough for me!
;)-->
Trefor Heywood
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Oakspear
...and if Paul was good enough for King James...
-->
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mike
Zixar,
I repaired a botched post addressed to you above. It's at 4-23-03 at 10:24
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Mike
Steve Lortz
In a much earlier post above, you wrote: ?...I would presume that the subtleties of the natural/spiritual dichotomy need be mastered before progressing to the possibly salacious subtleties.?
Actually, this document HELPS in getting to see how important natural/spiritual dichotomy is. It is a teaching aid for this thread.
You wrote: ?As you can see from the questions I posted above, I don't understand what Wierwille meant when he wrote about natural and spiritual "realms". There are probably others in the same boat. Is it wise to post your possibly salacious material before you have led us into mastery of the natural/spiritual dichotomy??
I can?t lead anyone into this mastery, that?s the Master?s job. I can point it out. I myself have not yet mastered it, so I?m not the teacher here, really. I?m just a student with a little head start, and I?ve joined the cheer leading squad.... er... as a ... ...as A COACH!....? Yeah! That?s the ticket. I?m just pointing out what?s been pointed out to me and some of the veracity of it. It speaks for itself better than I can, but it just involves a little adjustment of the meekness mode for reading.
I cant lead anyone into mastery, but I AM willing to share my notes, like some of the 81 page references, AND pass on what I?ve learned like the stuff from the record, but this mastery thing is all a part of the one-on-one relationship with the Father, and with His Son. It?s got to be a personal thing with you and the Father, knowing that He is the real author as you read for mastery. I can?t do that for anyone else, but myself, and that?s a big enough job for me. I?m not qualified to be the teacher here.
**********
Then in a more recent post you wrote: ?Thanks for responding to my questions, and thanks for admitting that you don't have answers for all of them. I believe our style of interacting is improving, even though we don't agree.?
Thanks. I cherish the less emotions discussions. It?s quite easy to get edgy when dealing with several unfriendly as all get out posts, and then run into a friendly one, and not see it. It?s easy for us all to both read hostility into something addressed to us when it?s not intended to be there, AND it?s also very possible to write something with NO INTENDED venom, but somehow the words chosen, and the cadence, just rub the someone raw that?s addressed to. Typing heart by ASCII characters can lead to a host of miscommunications. Maybe that?s what happened with the insult Oakspear felt earlier.
You then wrote : ?Shortly after leaving TWI in 1987, I began re-examining PFAL, asking the questions I was so subtly discouraged from asking while involved. I would read the material, or listen to the tape, and ask three questions: what did he say? what does that mean? and how does that line up with other things I know about the Word of God??
I know how you felt about those who discouraged asking questions. Did you see the post I did about me hounding Dr at the 1972 Rock with several pages of questions? He was VERY gracious about it. In later years I saw those who discouraged it, and I mini M&Ad them when it came to my questions. I sought out the thinkers to ask, and often found them. They were usually NOT in positions of dealing with hundreds and thousands of people. They weren?t high profile leaders who were always on stage at the Rock. I still keep in touch with some of them.
You then wrote: ?I came to the conclusion that some things were right, and some things were just wrong; some things Wierwille taught lined up with the Word of God, and some did not. That is still my conclusion.?
Same with me, for 1986 to ?98, until I came across Dr?s last teaching and some grads who were into the mastery thing for a few years already. Then EVERYTHING changed as they showed me the same things I?ve showed here, and more.
Having some exposure to philosophy, I can see better where you?re coming from. These disciplines make a good show of banging words together as if they were algebraic objects, or Euclidean proofs. But, since they lack God?s hand of guidance, they fail miserably in being as practical as they promise. I suggest you look at Dr?s use of these words, natural/spiritual/realms and such, on a MUCH simpler level than philosophy books treat these items. The grad audience of Dr?s were not all treated with the meat and potatoes of academic philosophy, but more the fine wines from the wedding in Cana of Galilee. Remember too, that the class was designed so that a 12 year old could take it. Like a course in genetics it was not, PFAL was not trying to outdo or augment high brow philosophy. It's supposed to be simpler than that, so we can use it everyday.
**********
You then wrote: ?You gave the following loose definitions for the two "realms": natural realm... all that the 5-senses can detect and interact with; spiritual realm... all that can be detected and interacted by way of manifestations of the spirit.?
First of all, thanks for recognizing the looseness of those definitions. I?m still working a lot of this.
Directly adjoining the above, you the wrote: ?Here is another honest question: How can a person distinguish between information that is coming from the holy spirit and information that is coming from demonic sources? Or in other words, how can a person detect counterfeit manifestations of the spirit??
Add a third possibility to holy and unholy manifestations: 5-senses guesses! Now it?s even MORE complicated.
This question plagued me for DECADES! I thought that the upper leadership had this nut cracked, and they could tell the difference, but I knew I had NO handle on it whatsoever. Then, starting in 1983, one by one, all the top leaders I knew or knew of, all of them demonstrated to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were faking the receiving of revelations from the Father. This total lack of a handle on telling the difference was MOST unpleasantly displayed in how they all handled (or didn?t handle) the ministry meltdown. I was flabbergasted with each and every such letdown over a decade?s time. Each one utterly surprised me, because all of them had been such great believer leaders in the years prior to 1982. Their sense knowledge language and leadership skills had well served many thousands of us grads, so I mistakenly thought they'd do well again in the meltdown crisis. But as they drifted into their own thing, and then 1982 came when God changed the course of His guidance to the ministry, their decreased insight and effectiveness became open and obvious. This question of yours is at the heart of why things went so wrong in TVT and the meltdown and the early splinters, when so many good and powerful people had holy spirit and a lot of knowledge, yet were powerless to handle it. Solving this detection problem would sure be a boon, wouldn?t it!
Ok, now here?s the good news! This question of yours was finally answered for me these recent years. I haven?t fully implemented the answer, but that?s what life is all about, fun learning. I have posted a little on this situation, and I have written several friends about it. To save time I?m going to paste in some of those discussions, and then we can talk about it later.
These pasted in paragraphs are from e-mails of recent years, so please forgive the sudden lurches in context in the way they open:
***
One of the greatest errors of all us grads (me included)
was that we often mislabeled 5-senses hunches as revela-
tion. We haven't learned to operate all nine that well.
This is humbling, but I know we're just not that super-
natural...yet.
We haven't yet fully utilized key #4 of walking in the
spirit: Study the Word much; what you can learn by the
5-senses God expects you to learn. We all got on ego trips
of getting revelation and it sunk us. When you can go to
the races and get all ten horses right by revelation, let me
know and I'll be very interested in your hunches possibly
being revelation. We have not yet learned to distinguish
between revelation and 5-senses hunches, or worse yet, rev-
elations from the adversary (See page 93 of Vol.III) That's
why we need to master by the 5-senses what God gave us
in those PFAL books, and THEN we can start to see things
spiritually.
***
Jesus Christ received revelation from the devil in the desert. See "The Word's Way" page 93 at the bottom of the page. Because he had mastered God's written Word he recognized that these revelations were from the wrong source and rejected them. Jesus Christ got revelation from the devil through the oppression process, not by possession. They tried to push his buttons, but he shook them off and they failed.
***
It depends on our mastery of all nine manifestations. If I could go to the races, like Dr mentions in the Advanced Class, and get all ten horses correct by revelation, then I'd feel confident enough to consider that it's the true God telling me in a more important situation, and not a counterfeit revelation from splitfoot, or a dumb 5-senses hunch.
Did you know that we can receive revelation from the adversary too? Jesus Christ did, in the desert. Dr mentions this in Vol.III page 93 with emphasis. Jesus could tell it was not from his Father because he had mastered the Word. The visions he had there were not like the traditional artwork of the adversary being red skinned, horns and tail. It was probably a BEAUTIFUL vision, designed to fool Jesus in to thinking it was from God. Jesus saw through it by the words that the vision spoke. Jesus had mastered the written Word. The OT was much more protected from corruption than the NT was for many reasons.
Until we've obeyed what God told Dr to tell us in his last teaching and master the books, we can't tell the difference between 5-senses hunches, Godly revelation, or the counterfeit MOST of the time. I realize we can operate the revelation manifestations SOME of the time, but it's hit or miss. We can't get all ten horses correct...yet. If anyone tells you he can, he's lying. A lot of the top ministry leaders allowed us to think they were skilled at getting revelation. They lied. We're ALL still beginners, and that's why Dr told us to master what he taught us.
***
In this case I think George's policy may have well originated with God. Once in a while we all seemed to get accurate revelations. Because I saw lots of profit from his refusal, and God is getting the glory, he may very well have hit a spiritual home-run THIS time.
However, until he gets serious about mastering Dr's books, his ability to get revelation will be as sporadic and shaky as it always was, before Dr died in the good old days. This is the case for us all. None of us have grown up into our full potential, but as we really work those books, and refuse distraction, we will certainly grow.
There are hidden truths in Dr's books. You already saw some in the form of foretelling of the ministry meltdown, and our return to the Fountain as you were reading the PFAL book last month. There are many more.
Dr's books are the ideal arena for learning revelation. Hearing from God means hearing or seeing something the 5-senses can't hear or see. Out in the world we face many devilish 5-senses situations that confuse us. These situations contradict God's Word and will. Turning to God's direct voice in that contaminated environment is very difficult.
In reading Dr's books we are again in a 5-senses environment, but this one is NOT confusing, because it is God-breathed. It does NOT contradict God's Word. As we master and learn the 5-senses messages in those books, with repeated and thorough readings, we can then turn our attention to hear God whisper to us the hidden messages HE, GOD, put in there that our 5-senses would never pick up. Also the 5-senses readings help us build protection against devilish doctrines that are all around out there. Our adversary can and will attempt at times to whisper wrong meanings to us as we work the Word.
((((((( Did you know that it's very possible to receive a revelation from the devil, and not be possessed? Jesus Christ heard a voice and saw a vision, but he recognized the contradictions with the written Word. Dr says on page 93 of Vol.III that this was a revelation to Jesus from the wrong god. It wasn't like the devil looked ugly, with red skin, a tail and horns. He probably was the most beautiful thing Jesus had ever seen in his life! But Jesus wasn't fooled or distracted because he had spent so much time with the written Word. They had some excellent texts available back then. Jesus never spent any documented time correcting the texts because they didn't need it. Dr said we aren't responsible for thoughts that occur to us (devil revelations), but we ARE responsible for not letting them lodge (take up residence) in our hair. We're also responsible for mastering the excellent texts God has provided us: Dr's books )))))))
If we only dabble with the 5-senses message in Dr's books, then our attention is required in each reading to focus on the surface meaning, and this necessary focus on the 5-senses message can distract us from operating the revelation manifestations and God's direct voice. Besides, why should God tell us these hidden meanings if we've not yet been faithful stewards of the open 5-senses message?
If we only dabble with the 5-senses message in Dr's books, and then go out into the devil's world, or even to the KJV, we could hear from the wrong god and not recognize his contradictions with the PFAL book material, because it's not yet mastered. That's why it's hard to hear God's voice in the world.
But Dr's books are the perfect place to learn.
Step one: master the 5-senses message.
Step two: keep reading, and hear the secrets.
Dr wrote some things on this conjunction of subjects (secrets, receiving revelation, and mastery of God's Word) in The High Calling" (Vol II p. 182).
In a race or in a track meet, the finish line deter-
mines the winner. Paul says he will press toward the
finish line which will culminate in the prize of the
high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Verse 15:
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus
minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise
minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
The word ?perfect? means ?initiated ones,? those
who have been brought into the inner secrets of the
great mystery, that mystery which was kept secret
from the foundation of the world and was first made
manifest unto the Apostle Paul as recorded in Ephe-
sians 3:3. Paul here is talking to those who know that
mystery, the initiated ones, those who have gone
further with the Lord than just being pledges or
neophytes or carnal Christians. ?Let us therefore, as
many as be perfect [initiated], be thus minded? ? be
intent on reaching the finish line. ?And if in anything
ye be otherwise minded,? ? if you have any
other goal ? ?God shall reveal even this unto you? by
a continued accurate study and right dividing of The
Word or by revelation.
It takes time, and patience for us to attain this 5-senses mastery, and that's only half the task, because the spiritual mastery is then required. The changes this demands of our thinking processes can be the most difficult things we ever have to do, but they're the most important also. This is why Dr put the "master the books" instructions for all us dabblers as the most important item in that most important last teaching of his. And this is why these instructions were so hidden by the adversary. Dr's MOST important message to us is in that teaching.
These two pages are an astounding addition to the subject of ALRI, the Arena for Learning Revelation and Impartation: H.S. book (7th ed) pages 8 and 212. I urge you to look them up.
On page 8 it's the bottom paragraph, midway:
"opening up the Word by divine revelation."
On page 212 it's the second paragraph, midway:
"Will you read it under the guidance of the
Holy Spirit, in the light of it's own statements."
Well, Steve, that was a long answer to a short paragraph, and there?s more, but it?ll have to wai until next time.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 24, 2003 at 22:57.]
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Mike
Goey,
You mentioned ?The Septuagint uses the word "agape" a bunch of times in it's translation of the Hebrew OT into Greek.?
There?s a very vague memory of mine to that effect... I think... but I can?t remember if there was a mitigating factor. This should be looked into further. What are your sources for this?
You continued: ?It is clear that the word "agape" was in common use some 300 or so years before Pentecost. Agape "love" was not absent before Pentecost.?
How sure are you that it?s not words SIMILAR to agape? I have another vague and old memory that Paul coined the term himself? I remember it like a Bible dictionary or something non-TWI.
You then wrote: ?Prior to Pentecost, Jesus used the word agapao quite a few times.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth [agapôn] me: and he that loveth [agapôn ] shall be loved [agapêthêsetai] my Father, and I will love[agapêsô] him, and will manifest myself to him.
The tense is clearly in the present at the time that Jesus said these words.?
It?s also the case that John has a few ?flash-forwards? to Pentecost in that Jesus speaks of being born again. One such flash-forwards in John is accompanied with explicit text that Jesus was talking about the future when the spirit was to be given.
You closed with: ?The notion that folks cannot "agape love" without being born again and renewing their mind is unbiblical and nonsensical.?
Well, I don?t know about the Septuagint or other use of the WORD agape (or however it?s spelled), but here is something I do know. Let?s look closely at the text under question.
?The Love Way? has this in it?s opening sentences:
?As we understand this new kind of love, we come to the great realization
that there really never was any love before the day of Pentecost, that the
love that came with the day of Pentecost is a spiritual thing on the inside,
and it only comes into concretion, in manifestation, as we put it on in our
mind and manifest it forth.?
Now, the purpose of this thread is to help us read these materials AS THEY WERE INTENDED to be understood. Dr?s use of vocabulary gives us two clues as to what he REALLY means in this sentence. Do you see the two words? In earlier posts I mentioned that certain words were used exclusively by Dr to emphasize the spiritual.
Remember in the class, when teaching I Cor.12 and one of it?s earlier verses, Dr summarizes the verse by saying ?No man can REALLY say that Jesus is Lord, but by pneuma hagion!? The two spiritually hot words in the sentence above are found in ?great realization? or ?great REALization? and the word really.
I don?t know if the word agape, or something like it, was floating around prior to Paul.
I don?t know if Paul?s USE of this word, his own usage, his own definition, his use of it was a historical first or not.
I seriously doubt that Paul?s definition (really God?s) was floating around at the time of the Septuagint. That?s impossible.
I know that the sentence above, in Dr?s vocabulary, means this:
As we SPIRITUALLY understand this new kind of love, we come to
the great SPIRITUAL realization that there never SPIRITUALLY was
any love before the day of Pentecost, that the love that came with the
day of Pentecost is a SPIRITUAL thing on the inside...
There may have been five senses similarities to agape in some rare people?s lives, some of the time, like super phileo, but Pentecost made the real stuff, the SPIRITUAL stuff available for the first time, to anybody and everybody on a full time, lifetime basis.
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Mike
Exy,
Your brevity speaks volumes.
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Zixar
And your volumes still speak nothing of value. I guess between you and excathedra, balance is achieved...
-->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Goey
Mike,
No, the words are not simply "similar". My source is the Septuagint as posted by ccel.org
Jesus was not speaking in a "flash forward" in the verse I quoted. He was speaking in "real time" as is evidenced by the Greek morpohology. It is Greek 101 and not arguable.
Well you do now Mike. Unless you choose to reject the "data" that I have just given you.
I could care less what the "Love Way" has in it's opening sentences unless it lines up with scripture.
What Penecost made "available" was the holy spirit.
Goey
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Mike
def59,
You wrote: ?I think one key is understanding scripture is getting away from the KJV and trying the newer ones. The New International Version is a great Bible and there a plethora of types out there that appeal to almost any demographic.?
I agree with you about that key. Their appeal is part of their problem. I agree that reading other Bibles is very useful, and I did do that a lot. Prior to 1982 we were supposed to study the available Bible as best as possible. Reading other translations is a KEY part of Bible mastery.
But one inherent problem in these appealing Bibles is that their producers DO THINK about demographics. If they didn?t automatically think that way they?d never get into the publishing business, or they would last long there. The theology of the demographics affects the non-inspiration part of their end product.
Remember, if one word is changed, then it?s no longer God?s Word, at least not in that area. In a translation almost ALL the words are changed. Translation itself is a somewhat subjective process, and when the subject matter is near and dear to the translators, their emotions and connectivity to their church?s tradition will guarantee many such places where the Word is lost. The adversary engineers such subtle effects on a very high priority basis when the passage deals with the power. Thwarting the power is essential to his smooth operation. Revealing that power again was the calling Dr answered.
***
You wrote: ?The New Living Translation is a great version as well and brings the scriptures alive.?
I like that one. I?ve also spent a lot of time in the NASB and The New English Bible.
***
You wrote: ?KJV0-only types are almost cultic in their admiration of the book.?
I have met people who are not only that type, but their whole denomination is based on the KJV being God-breathed. I have a books titled ?Which Bible?? and it?s put out by The ?Which Bible?? Society. Not joking.
***
You wrote: ?There were several versions of KJV from 1611-1753. One book said to covet your neighbor's wife, another said the unrighteous will inherit the earth.?
Those sound like mistakes in early printings, and not so much deliberate versions.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 25, 2003 at 0:09.]
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Mike
This ?Love Way? teaching was put on the radio and played over and over all over the country in the 70?s, plus it was sold in the bookstore on cassette. I?ve never seen it in written form from Dr?s day, but the tape sounds very much like it was being read by Dr from a prepared written script. It was radio, with little dead air, and a lot of information was being packed into many other mini teachings like it in format.
I wonder how many people never heard it or never saw it until now? Or how many haven?t thought of it for decades.
Here?s the next part.
*********************************
The Love Way
Victor Paul Wierwille
The Teacher Broadcast
Part II
You know, that the greatest thing in the world today is the manifestation of the love of God in the renewed mind. To the end that we are born again of God's spirit and have renewed our mind on what we have in Christ Jesus, and we manifest forth this love of God, we really become new men and women in concretion in the senses realm.
In the great chapter of I Corinthians 13, in the first verse of that chapter, we read: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels," and that's tremendous, "and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal". The word "charity" is the word agapao. There are three words used, three different Greek words used, and translated "love." One is the word agapao, the other is phileo, and the other is eros. Both phileo and eros were in the world, practiced and operated before the day of Pentecost, and still are, but these basically are nothing more than sex love or sex attraction, or animal love, that's all. But the word agapao has a new connotation. It signifies and means the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation. And though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, which you do when you speak in tongues, but if I do not have the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, there's nothing wrong with the speaking in tongues of men and of angels, but I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
We have forgotten that love will make a man a success. It will put him over where nothing else will make him a victor. Love never fails, it is the Master's rule. It will lead a man out of selfishness, out of weakness and failure, into the very strength and ability of Christ. There is no force in the world that it cannot dominate. It makes us wanted, it makes us a blessing, it enables us to take the place of Jesus Christ here upon earth. I have sometimes wondered what would happen if a man really dared to go all the way out to the limit of love. Some have neglected it, acting as though it did not exist, even in those who are born again of God's spirit, utterly ignoring its very existence, and yet, somehow or other they want the Father's help in time of need. Ladies and gentlemen, love must be enthroned in our lives in manifestation. It must govern our lives. You know, Paul's friends had challenged him one day, saying that he was off his rocker. They accused him of being beside himself. But he wasn't. Why? Because the love of God had so set him on fire that he was an extension, a manifestation in the senses realm, of the man who goes all out with the love of Christ. His very being was saturated with the passion that sent Jesus to the cross.
You know, you can understand I Corinthians 10:24 where the Word of God declares, "Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good." When love, the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, is at white heat, selfishness stops reigning. Selfishness, my friend, is a deadly poison. It is poison to the spirit, it is poison to the Body of Christ, it causes practically all the diseases in the human body. It is a strange thing how selfishness has never been feared by man. He fears it in another man, but he never fears it within himself. Selfishness is the cause of all the wars that have come, and of all the strikes, the battle between labor and capital, the strifes in politics, and in every other realm.
The epistle of I John, chapter 4, verse 16, was one of the most difficult verses of scripture that I ever had to face up to. It didn't seem to me that I could ever master it or understand it or bring it into concretion. This is what it says, "And we know and have believed the love which God has..." In our case, God is love, and he that abideth in love abideth in God and God abideth in him. Here are some great truths. First I have come to believe in love. I believe that the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation is the best there is to allow to govern my life. I have come to believe that the best method of ruling a home, a business, a government, is the love of God in the renewed mind. There are very, very few people who ever believe in love. They believe in force, they believe in intrigue, they believe in self and sense-knowledge judgments and arguments, but do they believe in love?
If in your heart, the innermost part of your being manifested in the renewed mind, you believe that love is the way and that it is the best way, then you must act it. Not only is it best, but it is the only way. It is the way that you are going to walk regardless of how anyone else walks. You're going to walk the love way. If you renew your mind, and when you do, you discover that you are living in the love realm. Your home is in love. And whenever you step out of love, you step into darkness and unhappiness. And so you must learn to stay put, to live in the love way. You have found that living in love is actually living in the highest and sweetest fellowship with the Father, it is actually living with Him. He has come into your body to make it His home.
And in I John 4:17, which is the verse following 16 which I read a moment ago, it says, "Herein is love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, even so are we in this world." Isn't that wonderful? What does that mean? It means that love is perfect in itself. But it also means that this love of God, the agapao, which is ours at the time of the new birth, must now be put on in our minds, and we have to walk in this newness of love, and it must gain the ascendancy in our life. When this love of God in the renewed mind becomes the rule of my life, I grow up into it until my life is dominated, it is ruled, it is governed by it, and that gives me a quiet fearlessness in His presence as well as in everybody else's.
You see, God is love and I am a love child if I'm born again by the spirit of God, and as I renew my mind I walk in the realm of love. I think in the terms of love. I act according to the rule of love and my whole life is pitched to the key of love. Then you can understand that there is no fear in love. There is fear in everything else, but the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation has no fear. And when you're out of love, everybody says and does things that they are basically afraid to face up to. You think things outside of love that you wouldn't want to become public property. But this perfect love in the renewed mind casts out all fear, because fear has punishment. You know, my friend, the Word of God says he that feareth is not made perfect in love. He's made perfect spiritually on the inside, this is a work of God, but not on the outside because this man has not put on the mind of Christ, he has not renewed his mind and manifested forth the greatness of this wonderful love of God.
So you see, you can understand that if we walk the love way, and the love life, we will say nothing, we will do nothing, we will resolutely refuse to think anything outside of the love of God. Can't you see what a fearless life that would be? No matter what happens, you know you're walking in love. When you speak you know it is love. Ephesians 4:15 illustrates this great truth where we read, "But speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things unto him, who is the head, even Christ." Speaking out of love is speaking out of tune and off key. It breaks the harmony. It jars the ears of men and women who are walking and endeavoring to walk in love.
So our whole life swings into the orbit of this new kind of love, this new creation life, when we manifest forth the greatness of the love of God which we have spiritually, in our walk, by renewing our minds and manifesting it forth as the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation. This is why Christian workers, when they are born again of God's spirit and manifest forth the greatness of the power of God, it just melts the men and women with whom they walk and talk and to whom they minister. What soul winners we are! What mighty men and women of God we are, when we manifest forth the greatness of the love of God in the renewed mind! This is the great walk, the great privilege of being so dynamically different and powerful in this our day and in our time.
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Oakspear
oh yeah?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mike
yeah
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Mike
Here are a few highlights from ?The Love Way? Part II.
(with my ALL-CAPS to emphasize the spiritual)
*****************************************************
?...we REALLY become new men and women in concretion in the senses realm.?
.
?We have forgotten that love will make a man a success. It will put him OVER where nothing else will make him a victor.?
.
?There is no force in the world that it cannot DOMINATE.?
.
?...it ENABLES us to TAKE THE PLACE of Jesus Christ here upon earth.?
.
?I have sometimes wondered what would happen if a man REALLY dared to go all the way out to the limit of love.?
.
?They accused him of being beside himself. But he wasn't. Why? Because the love of God had so set him on fire that he was an extension, a manifestation in the senses realm, of the man who goes ALL OUT with the love of Christ. His very being was saturated with the passion that sent Jesus to the cross.?
.
?When love, the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, is at WHITE HEAT, selfishness stops reigning.?
.
?It is a strange thing how selfishness has never been feared by man. He fears it in another man, but he never fears it within himself.?
.
?There are very, very few people who ever believe in LOVE. They believe in force, they believe in intrigue, they believe in self and sense-knowledge judgments and arguments, but do they believe in LOVE??
.
?It is the WAY that you are going to walk regardless of how anyone else walks. You're going to walk the love way.?
.
?If you renew your mind, and when you do, you discover that you are living in the love realm. Your home is in love. And whenever you step out of love, you step into darkness and unhappiness. And so you must learn to stay put, to LIVE in the love way.?
.
?...this love of God, the agapao, which is ours at the time of the new birth, must now be put on in our minds, and we have to walk in this newness of love, and it must gain the ASCENDANCY in our life.?
.
?And when you're out of love, everybody says and does things that they are basically afraid to face up to. You think things outside of love that you wouldn't want to become public property.?
.
?So you see, you can UNDERSTAND that if we walk the love way, and the love life, we will say nothing, we will do nothing, we will resolutely refuse to think anything outside of the love of God.?
.
?Speaking out of love is speaking out of tune and off key. It breaks the HARMONY. It jars the ears of men and women who are walking and endeavoring to walk in love.?
.
?So our whole life swings into the ORBIT of this new kind of love...?
.
?What MIGHTY men and women of God we are, when we manifest forth the GREATNESS of the love of God in the renewed mind!?
.
*******************************************
(I should do this for Part I someday too. Maybe I?ll add them in here, or at the end of Part I.)
*******************************************
.....Steve Lortz, here?s a good ?realm? definer.
?Selfishness is the cause of all the wars that have come, and of all the strikes, the battle between labor and capital, the strifes in politics, and in every other realm.?
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Mike
Steve Lortz,
This is something I wrote last year, and it seems to fit the context here. It fits with the big question you asked about detecting the conterfeit, and it fits with the thread topic.
CLOSE COUNTERFEITS
Do you remember Dr telling us that the counterfeit is SOOOO close to the genuine that only an expert can tell them apart? He often related this to us, so I'm sure you do remember. He was very adamant about this, and really emphasized just how exceedingly close the counterfeit could be. Yet, I was perplexed about this, in that most counterfeits didn't look all that close to me.
After taking PFAL I thought it was easy to spot where denominations were off the truth. I could see how FEELINGS could be counterfeit in that they could be very convincing, yet totaly off. But I couldn't ever see any of the counterfeit DOCTRINES out there that were extremely close to the truth. Where ARE these tricky fakes!
I'll soon get to what was missing in my logic on that topic, but first I want to digress slightly to my favorite topic: collateral mastery. It is essential that this mastery, which we were repeatedly told by Dr to achieve, begins in the realm of the 5-senses, and NOT spiritually.
This brings up one of the many lame excuses I've seen for NOT obeying Dr's final instructions to master the collaterals. It seems most of us (me included) had such a big ego cooking at the time of Dr's death that we were somewhat "above" going back to such elementary material. I think a lot of us got tricked into thinking that we could master the material spiritually and skip the 5-senses approach. Why crack the books again if God could simply tell us what we need to know when we need to know it?
From the "16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit" Dr taught us in Key #4:
"Study the Word much. What you can know
by the five senses God expects you to know."
First we master the collaterals 5-senses wise, THEN we can master it in our spiritual understanding. It's in our 5-senses study of the collaterals that we learn HOW to recognize the difference between true revelations from our Father and false revelations from the devil. Any attempt to spiritually master, without the 5-senses mastery effort, is not only doomed to failure, it's opening up to devil spirits. Remember, the counterfeit is SOOOO close to the genuine, and versions are too blunt to get us that sharp.
So, now we're back to the topic I questioned earlier: that the counterfeit is so close to the genuine that it takes a master to tell them apart. Why is it that I couldn't see ANY counterfeits out there that were that close. All the ones I could see were FARRRR from the Word we were taught.
Please name for me a close counterfeit; one that takes a MASTER to spot the flaws therein. All the denominations and doctrines out there are laughable in their idiocy. It may be difficult to persuade a person who's swallowed such a counterfeit, but it's not difficult to see that that's what happened. The doctrine is easy to spot as off. WHAT was Dr talking about?
He was talking about us. We hold IN OUR OWN MINDS the close counterfeits.
They're so close that WE can't tell them apart from the genuine, that's why we allowed them to be built in our own heads. This is the reason we have TOTALLY failed at all nine all the time. This is the reason we never have seen a single raising from the dead. I'm not talking about hospital-bed death pronouncements; I'm talking about four-days-buried and stinketh dead, like Lazarus. We've totally failed at that kind power.
Are YOU where you thought you'd be in the power 25 years ago? Would you have continued in all this if someone told you 25 years ago that if you went to the revelation races in 2002 you'd not be able to do any better than chance, even after 25 years of study? We have fallen far from our expectations from way back then, and there has to be a reason. It's because we all fell for the counterfeits. We didn't master what we were told to master, and we were not masterful enough to spot and purge our own error.
God gave the revelation to Dr to write the collaterals so that we can someday saturate our minds with them, and spot the counterfeits we have made for ourselves. We'll NEVER spot them without that mastery. The devil is smarter than us and our approximate understanding from translations, and versions. In fact, the devil had a strong hand in the production of these materials JUST SO THAT they would trick us. They're devoid of authority. They are useful tools at times, for a beginner, but devoid of authority.
The same holds for the critical Greek manuscripts. Most people don't realize that the critical Greek manuscripts are very modern. The oldest is from 1550, the Stevens text. Stevens undertook a project to rate (thus the word "critical") the ancient manuscript fragments exisiting at that time because they were so very inconsistant. All the critical Greeks manuscripts are the 5-senses products of the critics that compiled them. They are useful tools at times, but devoid of authority. Do you include in your research perspective that the critical Greek manuscripts are devoid of authority? That the Greek interlinear is devoid of authority? That Young's Concordance is devoid of authority? All these are useful at times, especially for beginners, but all are devoid of authority.
Many ancient manuscripts were produced by a reprobate church, because they all forsook Paul. They were also under the gun, being heavily persecuted. The copies of the originals they made are very unreliable. The same is the case for the Aramaic and Hebrew manuscripts of the New Testament. This is much less the case for the OT manuscripts we have today, but they don't have the Mystery. Ancient fragments are useful tools at times, but devoid of authority.
So where do we get the pure Word of God to learn His voice accurately enough to spot the counterfeit in our own heads or counterfeit revelations? I know of a set of writings that are bigger than us, in which we dare not change a single word. These are writings of Dr's, which are the final product of the 1942 promise, that we can grow up into.
Outside of this set of writings, all we have are approximations that we feel totally free to change, correct, white-out, and modify whenever we happen hear some convincing reaseach. We need to be able to put in our hand a book that's God's Word line by line, word by word accurate. Otherwise our lives are mere churchianity, with sporadic healings, a few warm fuzzy feelings, and ending with a massacre by the devil.
This is the reason the collaterals were written: God gave us something that's line by line, word by word accurate. Then He told us to master them by way of His same spokesman He had write them.
Did you know that we can get revelation from the devil? Jesus got it in the desert (The Word's Way p.93). If the devil could slip revelation through to Jesus how can we be immune to it?
Jesus learned from the much more accurate scriptures he had available, and from them he learned to tell the difference between the his Father and the adversary. It wasn't red skin and horns that tipped off Jesus in the desert. The adversary comes as an angel of light. If he was smart, he'd have looked just like what the cultural expectations of God's appearance were at that time. Those visions of splitfoot that Jesus saw in the desert must have been spectacularly beautiful. Anyone who seriously explored the psychedelic sixties spiritual scene can testify to this counterfeit beauty.
Remember, Jesus was a novice at having spirit at the time of his recorded desert temptations. How did he know this was not his Father talking to him in the desert? He knew from the devil's deviations from the accuracy of the Word Jesus had mastered at that time. Jesus had mastered the Old Testament scriptures from his youth by way of his five senses. If the OT manuscripts at that time were off, then John the Baptist would have fixed them for him. For several reasons they were extremely accurate at that time. Just like our collaterals.
In order to walk the Word them we must know the Word, not just some parts of it, not just paraphrasings of some parts of it, not just approximations. If you want to FULLY walk the True Word in True Agape Love, you must master the details of God's Word. Otherwise your walk will be SOOOOO close, but stuck in the counterfeit and powerless.
It's ONLY by mastering the collaterals that we are able to really, FULLY love God. Deuteronomy Chapter Six instructed Israel HOW to love God by saturating their lives with His written Word. Mastering the collaterals means we need to saturate our lives with them (and ONLY them) like Deut 6 perscribes.
Once we REALLY love God by loving His Word (collaterals) THEN we can really love others too. I've talked to or written to 200 grads in the past 4 years who have all come up with 201 rationalizations to disobey our clear orders to master what was given to us.
I care much about grads. I've seen us all decimated and distracted. I'm not just talking about leader goofups. I'm talking about how we haven't seen the dead raised, and how we haven't seen "all nine all the time" in every member of our PFAL family. I've seen us all going for the crums and not the loaf. I exhort you to get serious about the knowledge God wants us to have from those collaterals that He, God Almighty, produced by way of His servant Dr Wierwille.
Here is an early exhortation from Dr about the degree of mastery we needed. This is from the 1979 Advanced Class (seg.5):
I have set for our people, and it?s set in the book on
?Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,? and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven?t, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it?s utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I?ve discovered as I?ve worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.
There are no valid reasons for us to defy this order. We can't really walk in fellowship with God until we obey to master to this degree. "There still are areas where we got to push ourselves."
In a few previous letters I recounted Dr's urgings that we test everything we believe against the Word of God. Why did Dr tell us to do this?
For the same reason Dr so often warned us of the counterfeit being so close. It's because we were WRONG on so many things. Close, but not close enough to raise the dead.
I have learned to only allow teaching to enter my heart that's in print with VPW's name on it. He's the only modern AUTHORITATIVE spokesman for God, since the first century. There's no need for another spokesman because he said it all. Paul was the ONLY authoritative spokesman for God in the first century, being entrusted with the mystery revelation. All other spokesmen for God back then had to line up with Paul. That's what Peter's dying last words were, in the last chapter of his last epistle. The late dates on the Gospels and Revelation are because it took time for Peter and John to get fully on board with Paul.
If you want to be a spokesman for God you better say the EXACT same things Dr wrote or you are on the slippery slope to counterfeit churchianity. You need to get it down so familiar that the page numbers of where you get stuff will be easy for you to produce to prove it's right. I don't trust memory, not yours, not mine, not Eve's. Eve thought an approximate knowledge of God's Word was good enough. It wasn't good enough when it came to the tough battle. She lost.
Our English versions are useful for those who are just starting to get an understanding of the Father, but they wont help us in the big battles. If they could, surely SOMEONE would have risen up with the power of God at HQ to straighten things out. No one did. NOT EVEN ONE !!! When it comes to mastering the "other" six manifestations mere versions are not close enough.
So, wrapping it up for this topic: the close counterfeits are what satisfy, motivate, and block from power every single PFAL grad (who defy Dr's mastery instructions) out there and every single splinter group. Each and every counterfeit, that each and every grad has embraced, is so close that even these grads of the PFAL class can't tell them apart. The more sophisticated the 5-senses skills a grad possesses, the more close the counterfeit the devil can and will fabricate. THAT's why Dr oftened warned us that only a master of the Word can tell them apart, and THAT's why Dr often told us we MUST master PFAL.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 25, 2003 at 4:11.]
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Zixar
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Goey
Horse feathers! It does not matter how many words are changed as long as the concept. precept or idea is communicated as it was intended.
The Word of God is not the paper and ink, which btw is in the realm of the 5 senses. It is rather the idea or concept which is able to live in the heart. Dumbass.
Goey
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Zixar
Goey: So, if Wierwille's words are the Word of God, then Moses recorded Eve's error correctly, yet John got Jesus wrong in 10:10 of his gospel. ".. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." VPW says "more than abundant", changing a word and adding a word. Yet, the Word of Vic is the Word of God, so burn your bibles immediately. The Holy Blessed Doctor (praise be unto him) will tell you all the verses you need to know. Do not question the Holy Blessed Doctor (praise be unto him). What you would call errors are only holy commandments to master a greater spiritual understanding of the paper contradictions. When you come to a FULL knowledge, you will, of course, realize this. Spiritually. It will still be bull...., five-senses-wise.
Or it may just be that Mike's a dumbass, as you claim. Close call.
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The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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alfakat
gosh, Zix--what a dilemma! my day is ruined! I can't decide... I am leaning towards door 2, though....
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Goey
Zix,
Very good. John 10:10 is from an unreliable remnant. Wierwille's revelation is "fresher" and therefore cannot be construed as changing a word. It is a modern day "original".
But, according to Mike, only folks who can understand Wierwillian English have any chance at mastery of the Word of God. Translating PFAL into another language would, according to Mike, render it void of authority and no longer the Word of God. Word changing only applies to PFAL - the true Word. Who cares about those unreliable remnants?
Goey
[This message was edited by Goey on April 25, 2003 at 13:15.]
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vickles
I have a question. I've forgotten twi's answer on this. How in the world did they get the fruit of the garden and eating the apple that eve was masturbating? Now if that is a change of words I don't know what is!!!! Just my opinion anyways.
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alfakat
vickles--that will require at least 2 or 3 more pages, minimum...wait and see...
;)-->
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excathedra
dicktor victor:
i beg to differ..... VERY significant in THE DOKTOR's "walk"
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