Mikes temptations were that he didn't get the respect he thought he deserved as an older leader grad....that's why he's here. And once he realizes we share the same contempt, he will once again deal with his "ds" issues. although, with the support of his current fellowship he can once dismiss the idea that he made any contribution to his current state. That's the beauty of PFALLACY, people! No personal responsibility. If you don't like where you are at spiritually, financially, personally - blame the adversary!
Paw, make sure he doesn't toilet paper the restrooms on the way out! :)-->
Why would you even TRY to guess the details of someone?s personal life from so few clues? Even if your accuracy were better (it?s bad) what profit would it do you to see the inner motivations of my heart? Or of anyone else?s heart? Your judgmentalism is what what makes all religion stinky, and it doesn?t do anything flattering for you either.
Why don?t you address the details of gospel more than gossip?
I wrote to you: ?Your disapproval of God's sneak attack on the adversary is as solid as Lindbergh's pacifism. I suppose you tore Balaam's prophecy out of your Bible, because he was dishonest. If not, please explain this double standard.?
First of all, a little more background info. Balaam?s right-on prophecy, that made it into written form, was very short. Here it is in Numbers 22:7-10
And he took up his parable, and said,
Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram,
out of the mountains of the east,
saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.
How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed?
or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?
For from the top of the rocks I see him,
and from the hills I behold him:
lo, the people shall dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations.
Who can count the dust of Jacob,
and the number of the fourth part of Israel?
Let me die the death of the righteous,
and let my last end be like his!
Now, to relate this to standards.
God injected His Word into the world in these later years in a way that would not alert the adversary or the adversary?s programmed religious systems of thought. This injected Word got, the pure revelation, got put into a printed form that was perfect enough to pass God?s standards of what was needed to do the job.
This implanted Word, planted right under our noses, was distributed to bookcases around the world before the adversary knew it. God utilized the services of a man who, according to the adversary?s programmed religious systems of thought of the day, was NOT qualified to bring forth this Word.
I have never used the phrase MOGFOT, with any great deliberation. I don't see it yet in the books at all. I don?t try to argue for Dr qualifying to that in any of my posts. I simply argue that he qualifies, IN GOD?S EYES, to receive this perfect revelation, and to bring this Word into written form.
Just like Balaam would be THOUGHT by most people today to be INCAPABLE of getting a revelation correct, worthy of Biblical status, VPW is THOUGHT by most people today to be INCAPABLE of getting a revelation correct.
The adversary?s programmed religious systems of thought of the day, dictate that people disqualify Balaam, yet scripture sustains him. His prophecy was right-on, and beautiful to lovers of the God of Isreal, and insulting to God?s enemies. Balaam was right-on, in spite of his obvious moral character flaws. Not only did he have character flaws, he was in the act of committing them to the adversary?s use. YET he still got it right.
So the standard of the scriptures, applied to Balaam, says that Balaam is NOT disqualified to bring forth the Word, in spite of the disapproval of the religious readers of the Bible.
And the standard of the scriptures, applied to VPW, says that he is NOT disqualified to bring forth the Word, in spite of the disapproval of the religious readers of the his life.
However you switch standards when this issue of possibly disqualifying VPW comes up. You don?t use the standard of the scriptures, you use the to the adversary?s programmed religious systems of thought.
There?s your double standard.
BTW your exposition of Balaam was well done.
***************************
I think if you realize I?m NOT trying to prop up some formal MOGFOT doctrine, with all the succession trappings, then it?ll be easier to see what I AM saying. I never thought that Dr was placed in charge of the world. In a practical sense he was the ONLY guy with kind of solid answers I wanted, and that?s still pretty much the case. Sure God has other men doing other jobs. I?ve always believed that. Getting the Word into written form is a big enough job for Dr to have been given. Running the world was far from his duties. Duke C once wrote a short Way Magazine article to this effect, that I am searching for.
All my argumentation here is to the objections that God gave the perfect revelations to Dr so that it could be put into near perfect written form. God did that before, and Balaam is just one example.
I would never argue that Balaam was even close to being the practical mogfot.
There?s nothing in what I?m exposing that would give anyone an RC like right to succession to Dr?s fictitious ?mogfot? throne.
********
P.S. There?s a short reference to Balaam in the Book of Revelation. It?s not referring to Balaam?s right-on prophecy, but to his lust for riches.
********
You asked: ?BTW , why are you appealing to OT scripture which according to you are "unreliable remnants." Now that does appear to be somewhat of a double standard.?
There is a different standard of reliability enjoyed by the OT over the NT.
I believe that the OT was comparatively protected by lots of things. The OT people didn't have spirit so they NEEDED more help. The did have an entire culture built on the revelations to Moses. That culture was designed by God to be good at transmitting the texts to Jesus. If there were big text problems, John the Baptist would have fixed it in his preparing the way.
IN CONTRAST, the culture of the NT church and its written records was chaotic. They were fallen spiritually and under great persecution.
I still use my KJV for lots of things, especially in my memory. I see KJV verses every day in studying PFAL. I try my best to keep track of the differing surety levels involved.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 22, 2003 at 14:53.]
Because Mike, I don't like you. I don't like that you called me at home several times and added more trouble to my already troubled marriage and home life at that time. You are without wisdom and you are without understanding. I will continue to do what I can to derail your thread. You belong somewhere else. You hurt more people than you help and you don't take the obvious or subtle requests to move on.
Several times here at GS I have reminded us that there are three forms of satanic attack. I was not talking about possession, but oppression. Jesus had ds oppression in the desert and at other times.
WHY, when devil spirits are mentioned, do people ALWAYS think of possession? What about OPPRESSION? Did you know Jesus Christ was oppressed by spirits? In the desert he saw a vision and heard a voice and was abducted. He successfully resisted this oppression.
"HAVING a devil spirit..." can happen in two ways, and even a third.
1) - possession - this is what most think whenever a ds is mentioned. It's pretty extreme.
2) - oppression - this is FAR more common, and even Jesus had to deal with these. The more spiritual a man is the more spirits he'll have whispering revelations in his ear, and the more necessary exact mastery of Father's words is. All the top leadership had to deal with a host of these ds whisperings we've never seen. Mastering the genuine is a must in recognizing the counterfeit nature of these whisperings.
3) - Satan - the indirect 5-senses transmission of ds whisperings, pressures, pleasures, etc.
I?m cracking my knuckles and getting ready to go back to some substantial posting. Not that this give and take isn?t substantial, but I mean substance of the PFAL record that got lost. I?m willing to answer questions and absorb punches here, sometimes, because I feel many of you were robbed of the chance to confront the actual persons who did you harm. I sometimes feel like a surrogate punching bag for Dr, or Craig, or other villains in the TVT. If it helps, I?ll handle it to get the real message across.
I want to post soon some material that is SURE to set off some knee jerk responses, and some of these responses are called for and some are not, I?ll never know. I?m asking to see if you all are ready for an exercise in associative resistance. I want to post something that will SURELY provoke the normal protestations on the sex issues. I don?t WANT this next material to provoke these negative responses, but it surely will.
Here?s what I?m asking: Can everyone TRY to temporarily suspend their watchfulness for the sex angle to trip me up on, when I post this next material???
Here?s why: It?s so that the much more subtle issue, which I want to point out in the following discussion, isn?t drowned in the flood of the usual sex comments.
This much more subtle issue is right in line with this thread?s long lost topic in it?s latest form: our SPIRITULAL relationship with Jesus Christ, and what we were taught about it, but didn?t pick up on in our first exposure to this Word, even though it was in print or on tape.
So, is everyone up to this challenge, to hold your horses on the sex angle? JUST TEMPORARILY! And focus ONLY on the Jesus Christ connection?
Your thesis is riddled with logical fallacy. You have simply declared VPW's works to be God- breathed by fiat. Then based upon this presumption you attempt to build your case for mastery. The argument you present is circular and therefore invailid.
There is not one shread of evidence that what VPW wrote in PFAL was given by revelation. Even VPW did not make that claim. PFAL itself does not make that claim. Only you.
The record of Balaam shows that God can indeed intervene into the wicked plans of evil men for his purposes, if He so chooses. Yet if offers us no more than the simple "possibility" that God could have given PFAL by revealtion through VPW ( a modern Balaam of sorts) This proves nothing. It is just as possible and even more probable that he did not. God's use of Balaam is the exception rather than the norm. We have a reliable and time - honored record of God bringing forth the Word from the mouth of Balaam - the scripture itself.
In contrast, we have no reliable record of PFAL being God-breathed and worthy of "mastery". The only "record" that seems to exist is your claim that it is so. There is no evidence . No evidence that God spoke to VPW in 1942 other than VPW's tesitmony. No evidence that there was a snowstorm - only VPW's testimony. There is no evidence of a "new covenant" where PFAL/collaterals supersede the NT scriptures. Your whole thesis rests upon the presumption that VPW was telling the truth in most everything he said and wrote, yet there is much evidence that VPW was less than honest in many areas. Telling the truth was not one of VPW's endearing qualities, yet your thesis rests upon it.
Mike, your thesis is washed up. It is hogwash and has no merit. It is based upon presumtpion, false logic and God knows what else.
How can my thesis be washed up if it isn?t all presented yet?
********
You wrote: ?Your thesis is riddled with logical fallacy. You have simply declared VPW's works to be God- breathed by fiat. Then based upon this presumption you attempt to build your case for mastery. The argument you present is circular and therefore invailid.?
No, that?s NOT my thesis.
First I build my case for mastery from the record and out obedience to Dr, and recognition that these final instructions were very well squelched by strong spiritual forces. Forces NOT strong enough to last, though. If God had squelched it, there?s no way I?D be overturning his hiding job.
Second, from within the material BEING mastered, and addressed to those doing the mastering, the proofs flow.
So, you got me backwards! I?m NOT ADDRESSING the unbeliever, just like the Bible is not addressed to the unbeliever. I therefore don?t expect it to be first proved on cyber paper to you, and then you?ll do the mastery. I only expect those who take me up on this challenge of obedience to Dr will see this proof.
******
You again mischaracterized my stand with: ?You have simply declared VPW's works to be God- breathed by fiat.?
I have declared that I found 90 ?thus saith the lord? statements that Dr makes by fiat, really by God?s fiat.
******
You?re right in asserting that ?it offers us no more than the simple "possibility" that God could have given PFAL by revealtion through VPW ( a modern Balaam of sorts) This proves nothing?
To this I totally agree. That?s all I was TRYING to say. I was shooting down the arguments that said engaging in nefarious activity disqualifies a man from operating manifestations of holy spirit so accurately that they BRING FORTH THE WORDS OF GOD. They said Dr couldn?t; I said he could.
Now, even if all the worst stories about Dr are accurate to the letter, he STILL doesn?t rate as bad as the many bad boys (much worse evil doers) who STILL got ample revelations in the OT.
Dr?s misdeeds surely diminished his effectiveness, like David?s diminished his. David?s believing was so shot he got hit pretty hard and paid through the nose for his evil.
You?re right about the proof part. But I am not trying to prove it, just show where the proof is.
*******
You then wrote: ?Your whole thesis rests upon the presumption that VPW was telling the truth in most everything he said and wrote, yet there is much evidence that VPW was less than honest in many areas.?
When you say ?much? that?s a relative term. You actually mean: ???relative to evidence you have seen to the contrary, there is much evidence that VPW was......???
Well, relative to the evidence I MYSELF have, there?s a vastly more impressive amount of evidence that he successfully blessed a lot of us OLGs beyond any measure TWI-2 people can imagine.
Here?s my logic:
1 obey Dr to master PFAL based on 70?s evidence of God?s blessing to OLGs by PFAL.
2 see more evidence accumulate as we come back to PFAL purified from TVT.
3 finally put all the pieces together logically as mastery continues unhampered by religious supervision.
4 finally get our act together to fix what went wrong and see what plans God has for us.
Obviously, step one is pretty hard for nonOLGs but not impossible.
****
Now, one last thing. I need to repeat this for some readers, but many haven?t quite got this one yet.
You said above: ?Your whole thesis rests upon the presumption that VPW was telling the truth in most everything he said and wrote...? Not only is the order wrong, as I pointed out above, but another inaccurate portrayal of my stand comes up in the phrase ?in most everything he said and wrote...? I do NOT promote that at all.
Everything he WROTE to us grads is true. TNDC page 34
NOT everything he wrote is God-breathed. PFFAL page 83
As for ?most everything he said? VERBALLY, I have laid out here a priority scale, where his class tapes and most publicly taped teachings come first.
Then in descending order are the not so public tapes, the non-taped teachings, the small gatherings, the private conversations. The last entry is a real killer. Entire splinter groups (plural) are based on this lowest of surety levels in what Dr said in private conversations. I?m very distant with these lower entries.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 22, 2003 at 18:15.]
Sure it is Mike. The proposition of PFAL being God-breathed is indeed a thesis and it is indeed yours. And whatever else you propose rests upon it.
quote:First I build my case for mastery from the record and out obedience to Dr, and recognition that these final instructions were very well squelched by strong spiritual forces.
Mike, why should Wierwille's instructions be obeyed? And what gives the "record" any authority? Just because you say so? That is absurd. You are presuming that Wierwille spoke "ex cathedra" when he gave these instructions. Mike, how do you know that these instructions were "squelched by strong spiritual forces". Another presumption.
quote:So, you got me backwards! I?m NOT ADDRESSING the unbeliever, just like the Bible is not addressed to the unbeliever. I therefore don?t expect it to be first proved on cyber paper to you, and then you?ll do the mastery. I only expect those who take me up on this challenge of obedience to Dr will see this proof.
Mike, I know who your are adressing. But why in the world would you think that anyone would take you up on this challenge of yours? You have offered no good reasons. By you own admission you have not mastered PFAL, so you could not possibly know the results of such mastery. From what I can see all you have mastered is the art of illogic. Again you are presuming PFAL to be God-breathed and Wierwille's instructions to be of some authority.
Tell you what. Go and master PFAL. And when you have mastered it come back and tell me what the results are. At least then you can give a personal testimony as to the results of this "mastery" that no one has ever attained to and that Satan is trying to squelch.
quote:How can my thesis be washed up if it isn?t all presented yet?
It's easy Mike. Precept upon precept. If precept B is based upon the veracity of precept A, and precept A is eroneous, then precept B will be eroneous also, as well as any other precepts that rest upon either A or B. The entire thesis does not have to be presented if the first few precepts are in error - the rest will be in error as well.
As Alice in Dilbert says "must control fist of death..."
quote:Originally posted by Mike:
Oakspear,
No, I have no reason, nor intention of pi$$ing you off. I have simply stated that this particular issue has no sway with me.
You have made that abundantly clear. I have always supported your right to make your argument and hold whatever position that you want. I don't expect to sway you. My points and arguments are made simply to present the other side of what you say.
You?re NOT just raising the question, you?re raising it over, and over, and over, along with others who bring up the same thing over, and over, and over.
It's my privelege to do so. You repeatedly make the same arguments and raise the same questions, WHICH IS YOUR RIGHT AND PRIVELEGE, why can't I do the same? I have never called for your removal from the forums, your censure, nor have I questioned your sanity; I have even made the point that your conclusions flow inevitably from your premise, even though I disagree with the premise. So, what's your beef?
The reason you?re insulted is I have STRONGLY stated my stand, and you can be satisfied ONLY with me rolling over and saying ?Uncle.?
What? Did you get "revelation" about that one? The reason that I am insulted is that you refer to my arguments as "utterly trivial and...laughable." Clear now?
Prepare for the frustration of no satisfaction, because it ain?t coming from me. If my being intractable to all you can conjure makes you insulted, prepare for more,because I?m not going to consider this issue any more, than I did ten years ago. I?m settled on it.
Frustrated with your intractability? I've long ago given up on convincing YOU of anything. You have stated that there are areas of argument that you will NOT consider: fine with me, that's not my problem. You have a forum for expressing your views about God, Wierwille, PFAL and anything else you want to talk about. If you make your case convincingly enough, some might come to your point of view. However, I don't believe that what you're peddling is true, so I present opposing arguments, ask questions, etc. - not to downgrade or insult you, but to present an opposing viewpoint. Once again, I'm insulted at your characterisation of my opinion as "trivial and laughbale", not that you won't listen to me.
You wrote: ?Since (as I documented above) obeying man's laws IS obeying God's law (as long as they don't conflict), then we ARE NOT talking about two realms of activity?
I?m unimpressed with your documentation and with your argument.
I suspected that you wouldn't be impressed, since it doesn't line up with the position you already hold. You, as I also suspected, present no reason for your disagreement with that verse of scripture or my interpretation of it. You are not obligated to, of course
And I'm similarly unimpressed with your dismissal of a verse of scripture.
The ?(as long as they don't conflict)? that you so casually dismiss is the whole point. They conflict. God wins. Period.
They DON'T conflict, God still wins, semi-colon
Commerce was not a part of the heart of the ministry. You are looking at the outward form. Same with the status trappings.
I didn't say it was the heart. I said it was a part. You said it was not a part. Yes, I am looking at the outward form...since you can't see spirit, nor can I search someone's heart, especially that of a dead man
Open your eyes to the greater reality of God intervening to give us His Word. Your protests are useless.
God is a LOT bigger than PFAL and Wierwille. Open your eyes to THAT.
Money and status are what the world worships, and I learned how to not regard them under Dr?s ministry. I reject your judgement on these items.
The only judgement that I have is that you know as little of "Doctor's" motivations as I do.
I have an access to his motives which you reject: his written words.
You have access to what he SAYS his motives are.
You attempt to recall them, I re-read them. I see his heart and you don?t. Come and see.
Clap, clap, clap.
You may have no particular reason for p*ssing me off, and have no reason to care what I think, or what my opinion is, but you've done a thorough job of it.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
I?m headed out, and just saw your two long posts. Later I?ll read and respond. I did read a tiny. Also I had something I put together (below) that?s an expansion on my recent post to Goey.
In a nutshell:
I?m not trying to prove that PFAL is very special, of God, and worth mastering.
I do indulge in logic when we discuss the ramifications of the record material I post, but I?m NOT trying to to force acceptance of all this with some kind of logical proof, with postulates and theorems.
I?m not trying to prove that PFAL is very special.
I?m am TELLING you that PFAL is very special.
I?m TELLING you it is, and then I?m then giving the data that proves Dr taught all this, only it slipped by us, or we forgot it, or both.
STILL, I admit, that?s no proof of the foundational belief in the material?s trustworthiness. That shouldn?t be required of me by OLGs. It?s understandable that non-OLGs would want to demand that, and I can relate to their indignation with me, but I?m limited in that area of my target audience. I repeatedly remind people of this too. Most of my message directly relates only to OLGs.
You wrote: ?Once again, I'm insulted at your characterization of my opinion as "trivial and laughable", not that you won't listen to me.?
Ok, If I seemed to say that YOUR OPINION is trivial and laughable, then I?ll take that back.
I see the position you are defending or promoting as trivial FROM my perspective of recognizing God?s strong hand in the matter. From that perspective you are acting like the sister who busied herself with house cleaning tasks when Jesus came for a visit. Her sister recognized the triviality of these chores, and dropped them to learn from the master.
Your attendance to copyright laws and plagiarism protocol is like the misguided sister?s trivial focus. FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, the master?s here, in book and magazine form, the Word made paper, and that takes such great preeminence that your focus, the target of your opinion, is COMPARITIVELY trivial.
The laughs will come when he appears and we eventually have a big laugh about all the trivial misunderstandings we all, and that includes me, had.
So with the clipboard of your mind, please paste this page over the "trivial and laughable" label that was misapplied to your opinion.
You can always ask me directly in the second person, you know. You could also search the record I left here at GS, because your entire question has been totally answered. You?re not the first to be nosey in that area. Do you keep tabs on all the other mega posters here and wonder the same things? OR only those who run against your grain?
Thumbnail answer: window cleaning 23 years, work available 7/24, winter (now) rainy season = abundant time to type. Plus a lot of my writing work is pasted in here from the past 5 years of study and accumulating material, and debating the same subjects with 200 individuals in the past 5 years.
So, the shortest of answers is: hard work. Oh yeah, and I have no wife or children.
You wrote: ?...why in the world would you think that anyone would take you up on this challenge of yours? You have offered no good reasons.?
The OLGs have already been shown the good reasons: this Word that did work for ten plus years, for thousands of people.
They were eye witnesses and are probably all now wondering what the heck went wrong with THEIR believing. They KNOW what went wrong with Craig?s, and lots of other grads, but their own performance must be bugging them by now. Surely they must be realizing that in 1977, a full twenty five years ago, the picture they had of themselves and their spiritual growth for 25 years later in the 21st century, must be haunting them by now.
The proficiency they all thought they?d have by now in the ?other? six manifestations must be embarrassingly high compared to how things are doing inn their personal lives and in their ministry to God?s people. I KNOW THIS IS TRUE FOR ME, and I started doing something about it when I saw the open door of PFAL mastery. The one stone unturned in my 10 year investigation, was to literally obey Dr?s last words to us, as I literally obeyed his words in the LAST night of the class when he led us into tongues.
Sure the TVT confuses OLGs in their motivation to master, but as they learn (like I?m learning) to separate this Word out from the deadly TVT patterns and memories, then the motivation to come back and start again increases. Other OLG motivations can come from the Easter Eggs they find, which Dr hid in the record. As I show all the pretty colors of the ones I have found, then others will start looking for hidden PFAL treasure, and doing things like steaming off their album covers, just like Mikey!
After a wave or two of OLGs come back and see results, you?ll start getting your reasons from them to come back. Or... you could experiment now with your believing, push your believing buttons, and start reading, slowly and systematically. See what happens.
*********
You also wrote: ?By you own admission you have not mastered PFAL, so you could not possibly know the results of such mastery.?
Five years of partial mastery is enough to set a fire in my bones to tell now what I?ve found. As we pool knowledge, the 5 years can shrink for others, as the collective learning curve increases in efficiency. So I do know SOME of what modern day, recent mastery can do.
It took much less than 5 years for me to see one very great benefit of mastery efforts. This is in the area of understanding of the TVT and the soap opera the ministry became.
By mastering PFAL for a short time I learned how and why all those wonderful top leaders we had went from spiritual supermen.... to total shipwrecks, in any number of ways in a broad spectrum of crippling deviations from the Christ like standard of this Word. Some were wimps, and some were bullies. Some were tight lipped and stingy with needed words, while some were blabbermouths of all sorts of destructive and unneeded words. No one had any good answers for what went right, what went wrong, and what do we do about it, in those ministry meltdown years of 1986-89.
So some of the short run results of starting mastery are TVT separation, soap opera backstage insights, Easter Egg collecting, lots of fun Bible exposure, and many things about the change in administrations at Christ?s return.
As time goes by we?ll have to learn better how to not hit that anger button of yours. I do not intentionally ever do that to people. As for the plagiarism and copyright issues, I simply won?t let those subjects deter me in my study nor in my posting. My posting is slowed and delayed a little by these subjects because I want to help those who want to brush them aside like I do. I?ve got an itinerary, and I?m done with this spur in the route to where I?m going. If you want to keep bringing this subject, start another thread, and maybe I?ll join you for a little. But here I want to get back in topic. You may have interpreted my determination to wrap up this sup-debate as hostility or condescension, but to me it?s just my way of saying ?IT?S TIME!? It's time to pack up and ?Westward Ho!? the wagons.
So, a few screens back I asked if people were ready to tie their knees with leather straps, because there?s some kinky material up and coming.
Should I interpret the total silence on this announcement to mean that everyone is ready to suppress that sure to be felt knee jerk reaction to the material I will soon be posting?
I want to avoid the sex deviations from the post post discussion, and go for the much more subtle issues of our rich relationship with the active Jesus Christ. The things that appeared in ?Christ Formed In You? will come up again, and be greatly enriched if we can keep our minds out of the gutter.
Who?s ready for some mature, disciplined discussion?
No. It's a volunteer audience I'm looking for. And it's to serve THEM, not me.
I'm just asking that the audience TEMPORARILY suspend their knee jerk urge to magnify the sex end of my next post, rather that the much more subtle spiritual end.
It's just not fair to readers who are trying to concentrate on the sublime, to be hit with lemons.
I'm just asking for some temporary emotional control, in not overemphasizing the sexual references, so that the part about our relationship with Jesus Christ can be given fair consideration.
After it's over everyone can let 'er rip with catcalls and whistles.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
karmicdebt
Mikes temptations were that he didn't get the respect he thought he deserved as an older leader grad....that's why he's here. And once he realizes we share the same contempt, he will once again deal with his "ds" issues. although, with the support of his current fellowship he can once dismiss the idea that he made any contribution to his current state. That's the beauty of PFALLACY, people! No personal responsibility. If you don't like where you are at spiritually, financially, personally - blame the adversary!
Paw, make sure he doesn't toilet paper the restrooms on the way out!
:)-->
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Mike
karmicdebt,
Why would you even TRY to guess the details of someone?s personal life from so few clues? Even if your accuracy were better (it?s bad) what profit would it do you to see the inner motivations of my heart? Or of anyone else?s heart? Your judgmentalism is what what makes all religion stinky, and it doesn?t do anything flattering for you either.
Why don?t you address the details of gospel more than gossip?
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Mike
Goey,
I wrote to you: ?Your disapproval of God's sneak attack on the adversary is as solid as Lindbergh's pacifism. I suppose you tore Balaam's prophecy out of your Bible, because he was dishonest. If not, please explain this double standard.?
First of all, a little more background info. Balaam?s right-on prophecy, that made it into written form, was very short. Here it is in Numbers 22:7-10
And he took up his parable, and said,
Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram,
out of the mountains of the east,
saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.
How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed?
or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?
For from the top of the rocks I see him,
and from the hills I behold him:
lo, the people shall dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations.
Who can count the dust of Jacob,
and the number of the fourth part of Israel?
Let me die the death of the righteous,
and let my last end be like his!
Now, to relate this to standards.
God injected His Word into the world in these later years in a way that would not alert the adversary or the adversary?s programmed religious systems of thought. This injected Word got, the pure revelation, got put into a printed form that was perfect enough to pass God?s standards of what was needed to do the job.
This implanted Word, planted right under our noses, was distributed to bookcases around the world before the adversary knew it. God utilized the services of a man who, according to the adversary?s programmed religious systems of thought of the day, was NOT qualified to bring forth this Word.
I have never used the phrase MOGFOT, with any great deliberation. I don't see it yet in the books at all. I don?t try to argue for Dr qualifying to that in any of my posts. I simply argue that he qualifies, IN GOD?S EYES, to receive this perfect revelation, and to bring this Word into written form.
Just like Balaam would be THOUGHT by most people today to be INCAPABLE of getting a revelation correct, worthy of Biblical status, VPW is THOUGHT by most people today to be INCAPABLE of getting a revelation correct.
The adversary?s programmed religious systems of thought of the day, dictate that people disqualify Balaam, yet scripture sustains him. His prophecy was right-on, and beautiful to lovers of the God of Isreal, and insulting to God?s enemies. Balaam was right-on, in spite of his obvious moral character flaws. Not only did he have character flaws, he was in the act of committing them to the adversary?s use. YET he still got it right.
So the standard of the scriptures, applied to Balaam, says that Balaam is NOT disqualified to bring forth the Word, in spite of the disapproval of the religious readers of the Bible.
And the standard of the scriptures, applied to VPW, says that he is NOT disqualified to bring forth the Word, in spite of the disapproval of the religious readers of the his life.
However you switch standards when this issue of possibly disqualifying VPW comes up. You don?t use the standard of the scriptures, you use the to the adversary?s programmed religious systems of thought.
There?s your double standard.
BTW your exposition of Balaam was well done.
***************************
I think if you realize I?m NOT trying to prop up some formal MOGFOT doctrine, with all the succession trappings, then it?ll be easier to see what I AM saying. I never thought that Dr was placed in charge of the world. In a practical sense he was the ONLY guy with kind of solid answers I wanted, and that?s still pretty much the case. Sure God has other men doing other jobs. I?ve always believed that. Getting the Word into written form is a big enough job for Dr to have been given. Running the world was far from his duties. Duke C once wrote a short Way Magazine article to this effect, that I am searching for.
All my argumentation here is to the objections that God gave the perfect revelations to Dr so that it could be put into near perfect written form. God did that before, and Balaam is just one example.
I would never argue that Balaam was even close to being the practical mogfot.
There?s nothing in what I?m exposing that would give anyone an RC like right to succession to Dr?s fictitious ?mogfot? throne.
********
P.S. There?s a short reference to Balaam in the Book of Revelation. It?s not referring to Balaam?s right-on prophecy, but to his lust for riches.
********
You asked: ?BTW , why are you appealing to OT scripture which according to you are "unreliable remnants." Now that does appear to be somewhat of a double standard.?
There is a different standard of reliability enjoyed by the OT over the NT.
I believe that the OT was comparatively protected by lots of things. The OT people didn't have spirit so they NEEDED more help. The did have an entire culture built on the revelations to Moses. That culture was designed by God to be good at transmitting the texts to Jesus. If there were big text problems, John the Baptist would have fixed it in his preparing the way.
IN CONTRAST, the culture of the NT church and its written records was chaotic. They were fallen spiritually and under great persecution.
I still use my KJV for lots of things, especially in my memory. I see KJV verses every day in studying PFAL. I try my best to keep track of the differing surety levels involved.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 22, 2003 at 14:53.]
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karmicdebt
Because Mike, I don't like you. I don't like that you called me at home several times and added more trouble to my already troubled marriage and home life at that time. You are without wisdom and you are without understanding. I will continue to do what I can to derail your thread. You belong somewhere else. You hurt more people than you help and you don't take the obvious or subtle requests to move on.
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Mike
Karmnicdebt,
IT was YOU who first contacted me, and MANY times!
When you asked me to stop calling (or returning your calls) I did.
And there are those who have asked me to stay here. Go derail their threads why don't you?
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karmicdebt
You're nuts.
I'd say I'd pray for you, but I won't.
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Mike
Zixar,
Several times here at GS I have reminded us that there are three forms of satanic attack. I was not talking about possession, but oppression. Jesus had ds oppression in the desert and at other times.
WHY, when devil spirits are mentioned, do people ALWAYS think of possession? What about OPPRESSION? Did you know Jesus Christ was oppressed by spirits? In the desert he saw a vision and heard a voice and was abducted. He successfully resisted this oppression.
"HAVING a devil spirit..." can happen in two ways, and even a third.
1) - possession - this is what most think whenever a ds is mentioned. It's pretty extreme.
2) - oppression - this is FAR more common, and even Jesus had to deal with these. The more spiritual a man is the more spirits he'll have whispering revelations in his ear, and the more necessary exact mastery of Father's words is. All the top leadership had to deal with a host of these ds whisperings we've never seen. Mastering the genuine is a must in recognizing the counterfeit nature of these whisperings.
3) - Satan - the indirect 5-senses transmission of ds whisperings, pressures, pleasures, etc.
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Mike
I?m cracking my knuckles and getting ready to go back to some substantial posting. Not that this give and take isn?t substantial, but I mean substance of the PFAL record that got lost. I?m willing to answer questions and absorb punches here, sometimes, because I feel many of you were robbed of the chance to confront the actual persons who did you harm. I sometimes feel like a surrogate punching bag for Dr, or Craig, or other villains in the TVT. If it helps, I?ll handle it to get the real message across.
I want to post soon some material that is SURE to set off some knee jerk responses, and some of these responses are called for and some are not, I?ll never know. I?m asking to see if you all are ready for an exercise in associative resistance. I want to post something that will SURELY provoke the normal protestations on the sex issues. I don?t WANT this next material to provoke these negative responses, but it surely will.
Here?s what I?m asking: Can everyone TRY to temporarily suspend their watchfulness for the sex angle to trip me up on, when I post this next material???
Here?s why: It?s so that the much more subtle issue, which I want to point out in the following discussion, isn?t drowned in the flood of the usual sex comments.
This much more subtle issue is right in line with this thread?s long lost topic in it?s latest form: our SPIRITULAL relationship with Jesus Christ, and what we were taught about it, but didn?t pick up on in our first exposure to this Word, even though it was in print or on tape.
So, is everyone up to this challenge, to hold your horses on the sex angle? JUST TEMPORARILY! And focus ONLY on the Jesus Christ connection?
We may need to discuss it a little.
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Goey
Mike,
Your thesis is riddled with logical fallacy. You have simply declared VPW's works to be God- breathed by fiat. Then based upon this presumption you attempt to build your case for mastery. The argument you present is circular and therefore invailid.
There is not one shread of evidence that what VPW wrote in PFAL was given by revelation. Even VPW did not make that claim. PFAL itself does not make that claim. Only you.
The record of Balaam shows that God can indeed intervene into the wicked plans of evil men for his purposes, if He so chooses. Yet if offers us no more than the simple "possibility" that God could have given PFAL by revealtion through VPW ( a modern Balaam of sorts) This proves nothing. It is just as possible and even more probable that he did not. God's use of Balaam is the exception rather than the norm. We have a reliable and time - honored record of God bringing forth the Word from the mouth of Balaam - the scripture itself.
In contrast, we have no reliable record of PFAL being God-breathed and worthy of "mastery". The only "record" that seems to exist is your claim that it is so. There is no evidence . No evidence that God spoke to VPW in 1942 other than VPW's tesitmony. No evidence that there was a snowstorm - only VPW's testimony. There is no evidence of a "new covenant" where PFAL/collaterals supersede the NT scriptures. Your whole thesis rests upon the presumption that VPW was telling the truth in most everything he said and wrote, yet there is much evidence that VPW was less than honest in many areas. Telling the truth was not one of VPW's endearing qualities, yet your thesis rests upon it.
Mike, your thesis is washed up. It is hogwash and has no merit. It is based upon presumtpion, false logic and God knows what else.
Goey
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Mike
Goey,
How can my thesis be washed up if it isn?t all presented yet?
********
You wrote: ?Your thesis is riddled with logical fallacy. You have simply declared VPW's works to be God- breathed by fiat. Then based upon this presumption you attempt to build your case for mastery. The argument you present is circular and therefore invailid.?
No, that?s NOT my thesis.
First I build my case for mastery from the record and out obedience to Dr, and recognition that these final instructions were very well squelched by strong spiritual forces. Forces NOT strong enough to last, though. If God had squelched it, there?s no way I?D be overturning his hiding job.
Second, from within the material BEING mastered, and addressed to those doing the mastering, the proofs flow.
So, you got me backwards! I?m NOT ADDRESSING the unbeliever, just like the Bible is not addressed to the unbeliever. I therefore don?t expect it to be first proved on cyber paper to you, and then you?ll do the mastery. I only expect those who take me up on this challenge of obedience to Dr will see this proof.
******
You again mischaracterized my stand with: ?You have simply declared VPW's works to be God- breathed by fiat.?
I have declared that I found 90 ?thus saith the lord? statements that Dr makes by fiat, really by God?s fiat.
******
You?re right in asserting that ?it offers us no more than the simple "possibility" that God could have given PFAL by revealtion through VPW ( a modern Balaam of sorts) This proves nothing?
To this I totally agree. That?s all I was TRYING to say. I was shooting down the arguments that said engaging in nefarious activity disqualifies a man from operating manifestations of holy spirit so accurately that they BRING FORTH THE WORDS OF GOD. They said Dr couldn?t; I said he could.
Now, even if all the worst stories about Dr are accurate to the letter, he STILL doesn?t rate as bad as the many bad boys (much worse evil doers) who STILL got ample revelations in the OT.
Dr?s misdeeds surely diminished his effectiveness, like David?s diminished his. David?s believing was so shot he got hit pretty hard and paid through the nose for his evil.
You?re right about the proof part. But I am not trying to prove it, just show where the proof is.
*******
You then wrote: ?Your whole thesis rests upon the presumption that VPW was telling the truth in most everything he said and wrote, yet there is much evidence that VPW was less than honest in many areas.?
When you say ?much? that?s a relative term. You actually mean: ???relative to evidence you have seen to the contrary, there is much evidence that VPW was......???
Well, relative to the evidence I MYSELF have, there?s a vastly more impressive amount of evidence that he successfully blessed a lot of us OLGs beyond any measure TWI-2 people can imagine.
Here?s my logic:
1 obey Dr to master PFAL based on 70?s evidence of God?s blessing to OLGs by PFAL.
2 see more evidence accumulate as we come back to PFAL purified from TVT.
3 finally put all the pieces together logically as mastery continues unhampered by religious supervision.
4 finally get our act together to fix what went wrong and see what plans God has for us.
Obviously, step one is pretty hard for nonOLGs but not impossible.
****
Now, one last thing. I need to repeat this for some readers, but many haven?t quite got this one yet.
You said above: ?Your whole thesis rests upon the presumption that VPW was telling the truth in most everything he said and wrote...? Not only is the order wrong, as I pointed out above, but another inaccurate portrayal of my stand comes up in the phrase ?in most everything he said and wrote...? I do NOT promote that at all.
Everything he WROTE to us grads is true. TNDC page 34
NOT everything he wrote is God-breathed. PFFAL page 83
As for ?most everything he said? VERBALLY, I have laid out here a priority scale, where his class tapes and most publicly taped teachings come first.
Then in descending order are the not so public tapes, the non-taped teachings, the small gatherings, the private conversations. The last entry is a real killer. Entire splinter groups (plural) are based on this lowest of surety levels in what Dr said in private conversations. I?m very distant with these lower entries.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 22, 2003 at 18:15.]
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Goey
Sure it is Mike. The proposition of PFAL being God-breathed is indeed a thesis and it is indeed yours. And whatever else you propose rests upon it.
Mike, why should Wierwille's instructions be obeyed? And what gives the "record" any authority? Just because you say so? That is absurd. You are presuming that Wierwille spoke "ex cathedra" when he gave these instructions. Mike, how do you know that these instructions were "squelched by strong spiritual forces". Another presumption.
Mike, I know who your are adressing. But why in the world would you think that anyone would take you up on this challenge of yours? You have offered no good reasons. By you own admission you have not mastered PFAL, so you could not possibly know the results of such mastery. From what I can see all you have mastered is the art of illogic. Again you are presuming PFAL to be God-breathed and Wierwille's instructions to be of some authority.
Tell you what. Go and master PFAL. And when you have mastered it come back and tell me what the results are. At least then you can give a personal testimony as to the results of this "mastery" that no one has ever attained to and that Satan is trying to squelch.
It's easy Mike. Precept upon precept. If precept B is based upon the veracity of precept A, and precept A is eroneous, then precept B will be eroneous also, as well as any other precepts that rest upon either A or B. The entire thesis does not have to be presented if the first few precepts are in error - the rest will be in error as well.
Goey
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Oakspear
As Alice in Dilbert says "must control fist of death..."
You may have no particular reason for p*ssing me off, and have no reason to care what I think, or what my opinion is, but you've done a thorough job of it.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mike
Goey and Oakspear,
I?m headed out, and just saw your two long posts. Later I?ll read and respond. I did read a tiny. Also I had something I put together (below) that?s an expansion on my recent post to Goey.
In a nutshell:
I?m not trying to prove that PFAL is very special, of God, and worth mastering.
I do indulge in logic when we discuss the ramifications of the record material I post, but I?m NOT trying to to force acceptance of all this with some kind of logical proof, with postulates and theorems.
I?m not trying to prove that PFAL is very special.
I?m am TELLING you that PFAL is very special.
I?m TELLING you it is, and then I?m then giving the data that proves Dr taught all this, only it slipped by us, or we forgot it, or both.
STILL, I admit, that?s no proof of the foundational belief in the material?s trustworthiness. That shouldn?t be required of me by OLGs. It?s understandable that non-OLGs would want to demand that, and I can relate to their indignation with me, but I?m limited in that area of my target audience. I repeatedly remind people of this too. Most of my message directly relates only to OLGs.
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Mike
Oakspear,
You wrote: ?Once again, I'm insulted at your characterization of my opinion as "trivial and laughable", not that you won't listen to me.?
Ok, If I seemed to say that YOUR OPINION is trivial and laughable, then I?ll take that back.
I see the position you are defending or promoting as trivial FROM my perspective of recognizing God?s strong hand in the matter. From that perspective you are acting like the sister who busied herself with house cleaning tasks when Jesus came for a visit. Her sister recognized the triviality of these chores, and dropped them to learn from the master.
Your attendance to copyright laws and plagiarism protocol is like the misguided sister?s trivial focus. FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, the master?s here, in book and magazine form, the Word made paper, and that takes such great preeminence that your focus, the target of your opinion, is COMPARITIVELY trivial.
The laughs will come when he appears and we eventually have a big laugh about all the trivial misunderstandings we all, and that includes me, had.
So with the clipboard of your mind, please paste this page over the "trivial and laughable" label that was misapplied to your opinion.
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DATWAY
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ljn698
i want to know if "mike" has a job
and if so where he works
so i can get one there too
boy what i could do if i had as much time on my hands as he seems to
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Mike
ljn698,
You can always ask me directly in the second person, you know. You could also search the record I left here at GS, because your entire question has been totally answered. You?re not the first to be nosey in that area. Do you keep tabs on all the other mega posters here and wonder the same things? OR only those who run against your grain?
Thumbnail answer: window cleaning 23 years, work available 7/24, winter (now) rainy season = abundant time to type. Plus a lot of my writing work is pasted in here from the past 5 years of study and accumulating material, and debating the same subjects with 200 individuals in the past 5 years.
So, the shortest of answers is: hard work. Oh yeah, and I have no wife or children.
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Mike
Goey,
You wrote: ?...why in the world would you think that anyone would take you up on this challenge of yours? You have offered no good reasons.?
The OLGs have already been shown the good reasons: this Word that did work for ten plus years, for thousands of people.
They were eye witnesses and are probably all now wondering what the heck went wrong with THEIR believing. They KNOW what went wrong with Craig?s, and lots of other grads, but their own performance must be bugging them by now. Surely they must be realizing that in 1977, a full twenty five years ago, the picture they had of themselves and their spiritual growth for 25 years later in the 21st century, must be haunting them by now.
The proficiency they all thought they?d have by now in the ?other? six manifestations must be embarrassingly high compared to how things are doing inn their personal lives and in their ministry to God?s people. I KNOW THIS IS TRUE FOR ME, and I started doing something about it when I saw the open door of PFAL mastery. The one stone unturned in my 10 year investigation, was to literally obey Dr?s last words to us, as I literally obeyed his words in the LAST night of the class when he led us into tongues.
Sure the TVT confuses OLGs in their motivation to master, but as they learn (like I?m learning) to separate this Word out from the deadly TVT patterns and memories, then the motivation to come back and start again increases. Other OLG motivations can come from the Easter Eggs they find, which Dr hid in the record. As I show all the pretty colors of the ones I have found, then others will start looking for hidden PFAL treasure, and doing things like steaming off their album covers, just like Mikey!
After a wave or two of OLGs come back and see results, you?ll start getting your reasons from them to come back. Or... you could experiment now with your believing, push your believing buttons, and start reading, slowly and systematically. See what happens.
*********
You also wrote: ?By you own admission you have not mastered PFAL, so you could not possibly know the results of such mastery.?
Five years of partial mastery is enough to set a fire in my bones to tell now what I?ve found. As we pool knowledge, the 5 years can shrink for others, as the collective learning curve increases in efficiency. So I do know SOME of what modern day, recent mastery can do.
It took much less than 5 years for me to see one very great benefit of mastery efforts. This is in the area of understanding of the TVT and the soap opera the ministry became.
By mastering PFAL for a short time I learned how and why all those wonderful top leaders we had went from spiritual supermen.... to total shipwrecks, in any number of ways in a broad spectrum of crippling deviations from the Christ like standard of this Word. Some were wimps, and some were bullies. Some were tight lipped and stingy with needed words, while some were blabbermouths of all sorts of destructive and unneeded words. No one had any good answers for what went right, what went wrong, and what do we do about it, in those ministry meltdown years of 1986-89.
So some of the short run results of starting mastery are TVT separation, soap opera backstage insights, Easter Egg collecting, lots of fun Bible exposure, and many things about the change in administrations at Christ?s return.
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bumpyrama
guys, quit wasting your time
****************
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bumpyrama
yup
****************
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Mike
Oakspear,
As time goes by we?ll have to learn better how to not hit that anger button of yours. I do not intentionally ever do that to people. As for the plagiarism and copyright issues, I simply won?t let those subjects deter me in my study nor in my posting. My posting is slowed and delayed a little by these subjects because I want to help those who want to brush them aside like I do. I?ve got an itinerary, and I?m done with this spur in the route to where I?m going. If you want to keep bringing this subject, start another thread, and maybe I?ll join you for a little. But here I want to get back in topic. You may have interpreted my determination to wrap up this sup-debate as hostility or condescension, but to me it?s just my way of saying ?IT?S TIME!? It's time to pack up and ?Westward Ho!? the wagons.
So, a few screens back I asked if people were ready to tie their knees with leather straps, because there?s some kinky material up and coming.
Should I interpret the total silence on this announcement to mean that everyone is ready to suppress that sure to be felt knee jerk reaction to the material I will soon be posting?
I want to avoid the sex deviations from the post post discussion, and go for the much more subtle issues of our rich relationship with the active Jesus Christ. The things that appeared in ?Christ Formed In You? will come up again, and be greatly enriched if we can keep our minds out of the gutter.
Who?s ready for some mature, disciplined discussion?
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DATWAY
Mike give it to R. Rivenbark and boys! Why dont you take all
this DATA to them, they need it. They think they can master
something too. They will probably be glad to have you. God has
healed me without a single mastery of anything and he
asked for only love in return.
PromisingFemales AbundantLust
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Zixar
Datway: Mike is still confusing "right to freedom of speech" with "right to command a willing audience."
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Mike
Zixar,
No. It's a volunteer audience I'm looking for. And it's to serve THEM, not me.
I'm just asking that the audience TEMPORARILY suspend their knee jerk urge to magnify the sex end of my next post, rather that the much more subtle spiritual end.
It's just not fair to readers who are trying to concentrate on the sublime, to be hit with lemons.
I'm just asking for some temporary emotional control, in not overemphasizing the sexual references, so that the part about our relationship with Jesus Christ can be given fair consideration.
After it's over everyone can let 'er rip with catcalls and whistles.
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