OK, I'll have at it. First, I disagree with your premise of sin, as people making human errors. God does forgive people their mistakes. The original sin, I believe, is something far different. It has nothing to do with our errors, foibles and mistakes. Sin is separation from God. Mankind is separated from God.
For some background to explain myself - bear with me.
Imagine, a darkened theater. All of a sudden out of total blackness, the lights come up. There on the stage are the most beautiful angelic beings ever created, they shine like jewels in ways we cannot imagine. The head of them, and their mediator, between the creator who created them (God) and the head of these magnificent creatures is the angel of light, Lucifer. Earth is their home as is the universe, but earth was Lucifer's domain and was given him to steward, as we know that all of the sons of God (angels) rejoiced when the earth was made.
At this time, there is one perfect will (God's), all creation runs in perfect joy and harmony. The worship and love between Creator, creature and created knows no bounds, and the mediator between this flow between Spirit (God) and physical creation is Lucifer.
Time passes, Lucifer thinks, maybe, since I'm so beautiful and the head and God's right hand man, helper, and mediator, just maybe, some of the worship should come my way too, maybe I should be ruler, in fact, I will ascend to the most high, in fact, there's no reason why I can't rule, in fact, I should be above God. Claiming God's glory as his own (after all, he deserves it), his hubris becomes his downfall.
Now, there are two opposing wills in conflict.
Result? We read about this in Gen. 1:1. Lucifer's fall was catastrophic. When ever there is a flood (this first one and Noah's), or total destruction (sodom & Gomorrah - because of strange flesh, angels), or the one to come by fire, it is always in response to something horrendous Satan or his spirits have caused that is abhorrent. It is so abhorrent, in ways we cannot understand, that is must be destroyed - because it has been totally contaminated and corrupted.
Anyway, the earth becomes without form - there is total darkness in the universe. Waters totally cover the earth. In front of the whole universe of creation and angels, Lucifer cannot put it back together again. He cannot give light, he cannot cause the waters to recede. His powerlessness is made known to all of creation. He after all, was still just a creature, not the Creator.
Finally, God puts it back together again (Let there be light, etc.). Now God creates a new creature - man. Was Adam the first man? I don't know, I don't think so. I believe he was inserted into human history, as Christ was.
But - Adam was created. There are only 3 beings that God specifically says he created: Angels, Adam and Christ. All others were made. Adam was not just a man as we think of men. He was created to head up this newly put back together earth. Earth was now man's home. Adam was the mediator between God and man. He now takes Lucifer's place on earth and has dominion over the earth. Lucifer in his fallen state, now watches helplessly as this puny clay being, rules over what was his creation. How dare God do this to him? How dare God gives this little clay being the authority and mediation that Lucifer once had? He is enraged. Adam took Lucifer's place and was the new mediator. He was God's new creation.
Lucifer must now get man to give his allegiance to him. Then all will be his again.
God freely gave Adam access into him. As God gives freely, man gives freely. Its a dance.
Then he falls. He eats of the tree of knowledge. Instead of allowing God to give to Adam, Adam takes from God (the knowledge). Instead of freely fellowshipping with God, Adam believes the glorious being, Lucifer in the Garden. I imagine Lucifer showed himself and his angels in all their glory to Eve and to Adam. Lucifer makes a bargain with Adam. In return for this glory, power and knowledge (hey, how come God's holding back from me? I want to be like them!) Lucifer possesses - he will give it freely to Adam, so he can become as a "god." In return Adam will give Lucifer the dominion he has over the earth. Adam says - deal.
Adam falls via his free will - he made a choice. This is catastrophic. Earth now becomes, once more, Lucifer's dominion - to ruin once again.
Lucifer thinks he will now have man's allegiance. He's won! He's beaten God - He's got his dominion back. But, guess what? God throws Lucifer a curve ball. God gave man free will - he's not a robot. God puts enmity between man and Satan. Now, instead of two wills, today you have almost 7 billion individual free wills running around. Satan does not have man's allegiance and can't possibly control millions and billions of creatures who have their own free will. He was foiled again.
Now, there is need of a Savior for mankind. You're right, God could have blown off man and said, let him live in hell on earth without me (imagine a world without God - that is hell - think, Auschwitz) - with no light, no love, no kindness, etc.
Adam's fall was not about making a human mistake, it was the fall of a created, noble creature, who willingly chose to worship and live under the dominion of another creature, whom he thought was greater than God. He sought to become a god, he sought this knowlege from satan - if he did as Satan said he would know knowledge. He chose not to worship God and to worship the creature instead.
Mankind then needed a redeemer. Mankind and creation needed redemption and to be freed from this evil dominion (the whole world lies in wickedness - i.e., the world lies, like a baby, in a cradle of wickedness - it cannot escape). You know the rest of the story.
God's goal is to bring the universe, earth, and all creation into that perfect harmony it once had before Gen. 1:1. Into perfect holiness, joy and love - only the ONE perfect will of God can bring this about.
Man's will can never bring this about. Man can never, by any work, ever make himself holy enough to enter into God. That is why Christ is our perfection - he cleanses - or, ends our separation from God, makes us holy and brings us into the presence of God - while here on earth, and in the new heaven and earth to come.
God, in his love can never overstep man's free will. Man chooses who to love. Our soul's journey here on earth has one purpose: to decide who we will spend our time with on earth, and our eternity with. We can choose to be with God or not to be with God. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. God cannot, and will not "kill" a man's soul. It will always live, the question is, where and with whom?
God doesn't "send" people to hell. Forced love for a person or God is not real love, it is submission. God will never force us to love him.
If a man chooses and desires not to be with God, in the end, God must grant him that desire - it would be possession to force someone to want to be with him. There are many who hate God, mock him, spit on Christ's sacrifice - God will give them their desire to live without him. That is the only loving thing God can do.
There is a place where God is not. Where a soul may live without God. Its not punishment, its simply being given your desire. Be very careful what you wish for.
Christ is holy. He is the entrance into God for us. He was necessary. Any man, who so desires may come. Christ was necessary.
I personally, and doctrinally think it is not a matter of forgiveness but a matter of reconciliation.
Legally, since Adam and Eve broke God's commandment, the penalty was spiritual death. In order to get that spirit back (legally, because God is just) He had to send a saviour to redeem mankind, the relationship with God. ( I still believe this)
Lets say one of your children takes your car without your permission. The law says you have to be old enough to drive. Your children know this, but being 12 years old they decide to disobey anyway.
They get in the car, and drive down the highway and hits another car and both are totaled.
Do you forgive your child for disobeying? Of course you will. Is there some kind of legal problem to deal with that is still there? Yes. Just because you forgive your child doesn't mean there is no consequences.
Once the legal issue is resolved, then you can move on as long as the judge doesn't revoke a future licence.
Lets say you, the parent, now have to pay a price. $100 whatever to the court, as well as damage to the other persons car. But, legally, your child would have this on their record, but because you paid the price, the judge can be merciful and clean the record so he doesn't have to pay for it later. Now, you forgave him for disobeying and justice forgives him.
To me, this is a mediocre example, but since you used your own children, I did for the sake of arguement.
We can go to God's word and look.....
2Cor 5:18, 19, 20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled (re-connected, united) us to Himelf by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation ( re-connection);
to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling (re-uniting/connecting) the world unto Himself, not imputing (reckoning) their transgressions to them; and having laid upon us (the responsibility or burden of ) the message of the re-connection. On Christ's behalf therefore we are ambassadors.......be ye re-connected to God. (paraphrase, from the companion bible)
This is not a "forgive and forget treaty", but a command to return to God by means of the new connection, only available by the death and resurection of Jesus Christ. We now have the access to God that was lost in Adam.
I will pray for you sprawled out, that you can see with your spiritual eyes. I hope that you aren't giving God the black eye because of TWI.
But, as always, this is where I put my faith and heart. Opinions do vary.
My take quite simply is that Adam and Eve WERE forgiven and went on to live a long life, however THEY had opened the 'door' for some horrible side-effects.
Question for you...If you had 2 or 3 beautiful children that you loved to bits but you knew to have them you would have to deal with a naughty, nasty brat first-born, would you still go ahead and have the kids ?
I'm sure glad God still went ahead with the plan, aren't you.
What's the alternative? Create robots? If one does not have free will, he is a robot, he would be a slave to the creator, not an autonomous being, where is the love and joy in that. One thing a creator does is create - like an artist. An artist must create, that's his mission, that's his joy.
God's plan seems to be unfolding nicely. In the context of eternity, this hasn't taken all that long. One thing I have seen lately is the unique importance of an individual's soul. There must be something inherently awesome in the soul for God to go to the trouble of rescuing it, or reconnecting it, so to speak. As Christ said, don't fear them which can kill the body, but fear him which can destroy the soul, i.e., the important thing about a human is his soul.
Since God cannot kill (yes, I know, people are killed everyday, but they are the victims of other men and their wills) that which he created - life - the soul, he has given you a choice to make - the onus is on you. I don't believe when you die its oblivion, that's it lights out. That's a nice cop out, a nice excuse to not have to make a decision.
I have seen, that that which was created perfect was corrupted. In order to have a steward over his creation (Lucifer, Adam, Christ), the steward must have free will to make decisions. God's plan is simply to return to the uncorrupted perfection and free will, love and joy with his creation that was before Gen. 1:1. We live our lives here for a split second compared to eternity. Where do we want to go?
Those who in their hearts chose not to know him, to not be with him, will not be. There's a lot in the Bible about this place where God is not. I'm not talking about a place of burning fire. I sometimes think God uses images to represent a place that cannot be comprehended. If people seriously thought, what would it be like to live in a place where there is no God, what kind of life would it be? A place where you and the disobedient ones whether human or angel, live in a place that has no God - no love, no light, no kindness, no possibility of crossing the chasm into "true" life with God, knowing you chose to be there and to make your abode there, because this was your true desire, I think people would possibly think deeper.
There have been several books written about people's near death experiences who did not go to "heaven" but went to the place of no God. I think God is teaching people who are teaching it to others - that this is serious. I think the time is short and people are being given revelations and visions in order to win others. Things that were commonly known in the OT about this place are being revealed again and brought to light.
But, the invitation has been offered, now the ball's in your court, the choice is up to you. Its God's will you come to him and be with him and enter INTO him through Christ. That's his will. But, he cannot, and will not, override your will. As I said, who and where do you want to spend eternity with?
Imagine for a moment that you live 5000 years ago.
You have no knowledge of the sciences of biology, chemistry, or modern medicine. Certainly no real understanding of germs or viral infections and the like. And life is short, brutal, and unforgiving.
What do you think you might do? Would superstition maybe play a key role in your day to day living?
Wouldn't you try to appease the "gods" that are "out there" so as to maybe live for another day or two?
And if you were going to cook up some sort of faith to believe in, something that would give you a sense of wellbeing, even when your senses tell you different, wouldn't it look a lot like what we call "Christianity" today? Or maybe Judaism, or Islam, or Hinduism, or...?
George...are you referring to the 'age of innocence'- where men acted according to the integrity of their hearts..you know..where God kinda' winked at ??!! Before the Law sort of thing.
Now we know more and understand more and can believe more. Do people really act any less brutal or less ignorant, or less egotistically, stubbornly ??
What's the alternative? Create robots? If one does not have free will, he is a robot, he would be a slave to the creator, not an autonomous being, where is the love and joy in that.
Given all the powers attributed to yahweh, then wouldn't free will be a creation of his? Is not the feeling of joy pre-programmed to be experienced when the designer deemed he wanted it? How can free-will exist when yahweh is said to be omniscience? All my choices are already known to him. How can I alter the already known future? If I try, yahweh already knew I would. This would seem to invalidate free will.
Alternatives? I think a good start would be a planet where the life on it did not need to eat each other in order to survive. How about a supply of food that isn't life itself, that provides all the nutrition needed.
How about a planet that doesn't need to wipe out thousands of people occasionally due to natural forces? Do we really need vulcanoes, huricances, earthquakes?
How about a complaint desk? Somewhere to post your grievances against the almighty, and actually get a response?
hmmm...do i jump into the fray, or just say "thanks for your thoughts?" it's tough for me, because i really have no interest in arguing about it, or trying to win anyone over to my way of thinking.
ah, what the heck!
i will say you told a good story, sunesis. well done. and it does seem to make sense, until you really think about it. first of all, from what i know of the bible (and i used to know a bit, back in the day), most of what you said is pieced together from here and there, really a cobbled-together theology that's been handed down, with the blanks filled in as needed. the bible doesn't really SAY half of that stuff. all that business about lucifer and the earth becoming without form--it's all just speculation. there's no way to really link one with the other. even the stuff about adam's fall is largely conjecture. NONE of what went on in his head and heart is written in genesis. none of that "how come God's holding back from me" stuff is really there. i get that it's nice and it seems to fit. but that doesn't make it true. or honest.
you also say things that simply aren't accurate, much like we were taught in twi, i'm afraid. you say, for example, that there are only three beings God specifically says he created, but you (conveniently) left out the "great whales" of genesis 1:21. it's right there, same hebrew word and everything. so your "adam the mediator" argument falls to pieces. (a nice one, though. the whole thing about adam being different, special. i don't think i ever heard it that way before.)
by the way, i never said anything like "God could have blown man off." you somehow read that into what i said. what i said was God would love him and forgive him. how you could translate that into "blow him off" is beyond me. but it shows that you're not really honest in your thinking. i'm not trying to be nasty in any way, sunesis. i'm just pointing out what i see. you're inventing meaning in what i wrote, just like you're accepting invented meanings for blanks in the bible.
sunesis, if you believe it and it makes you happy, i'm happy for you. but it just doesn't work for me. especially when your explanation is largely not even in the bible. much of it is just made up out of whole cloth. come on, how is lucifer's will on par with God's? they couldn't possibly be equally opposing--God's has to be bigger, stronger. i think it's THAT kind of thinking that really "gives God a black eye," as bliss called it. honestly, i think that all that mumbo-jumbo gives God a black eye. what I'M saying is that God is truly big, truly loving. all this other stuff, TO ME, makes God out to be a piker.
bliss--the whole business of what God could or could not "legally" do is just a bunch of hooey to me. "legal" means there's a law somewhere. perhaps a whole set of them. show me. where are these laws that God made himself subject to? where did it say--BEFORE ALL THIS HAPPENED--that IF man fell, God would have to send a redeemer? it doesn't. it sounds nice, but it's MADE UP. not even the epistles, which is the only place any of these "connections" are made, makes this "legal" argument. Romans 5 uses words like "judgment" and "condemnation," but you can't extrapolate a whole "legal system" from that. well, you can, if extrapolation is what you do. but that doesn't make it right. or true.
me personally, i believe in a bigger God than you seem to. a God who loves bigger, more perfectly than i do. a God who understands we're only human. one who wouldn't require something as barbaric as a blood sacrifice for me to "get right" with him. i'm sorry, kids, i just can't get behind a God like that. if you can, good for you. but no thanks, no church for me. :D
I hear ya, Sprawled Out. Those are the same things I wrestle with.
IF this God is all knowing, all loving, all powerful and everywhere present, then why would he set us up for failure? I mean, that's what it was. Is it like "I'll kick 'em while they're down so I can pick them up and make them love me"?
IF this God is all knowing, all loving, all powerful and everywhere present, then why couldn't he create the world with free will, but free will such that there's only positive outcomes and choices to be made? All goodness and light, sort of stuff.... IF he is this huge, wonderful God surely he could have done that. Why does free will have to include ugliness and evil?
Besides that.....IF someone uses only the Bible for the basis of their beliefs, then aren't they severly limiting themselves? Kind of like ONLY using TWIt material to study the Bible.
I don't have answers and since leaving TWI I actually have MORE questions than I did BEFORE TWI. But I'm also more comfortable with saying, "I don't know" and "What difference does it make?" NOT that this doesn't make a difference - just saying sometimes TWI forced answers where there really isn't any and that these days I'm okay with not knowing some things.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Yup --- sure looks like a *sting operation* to me!!!
Well, David, the way I see it.... IF God is truly all the "all" things that we're taught, then why would he knowingly create a situation where he knew that "thou shalt surely die"? Why would he create "evil" and the devil? Why not create a true paradise where there is no evil, bad stuff, nothing that we could screw up? Why set up a situation where he'd have to have his son tortured and killed? Just doesn't make sense to me....not logical given the benevolent God that he's supposed to be. IF he really is all those things then it would be possible, no? He makes the rules, doesn't he? Seems to be a pretty messed up set of rules, imo.
I know my Daddy never put me in a situation where he knew I was gonna screw up. He never expected me to fail and did everything he could to make sure I was prepared to handle situations and tried to teach me how to avoid getting into a pickle. Surely God Almighty could have at least done that. *shrug*
Not saying I know all the answers, but that it seems to me that Adam & Eve were "set up" to fail and God not only knew it, but created the situation so that they would.
Thanks Sprawled Out for an honest sharing/great thread idea! I've come to this thread several times and resisted the desire to post - because I wasn't sure what to say...And I kept wondering if I was having a knee-jerk reaction from my former TWI days like "somebody help that unbeliever over there - quick!!!!"...Honestly, there's not much I should say to try to convince you to think otherwise than the way you think now. I think questions like this each person has got to work out for themselves...I don't think you're asking for my thoughts on what I believe about that stuff.
I think everyone that leaves TWI goes through a big reflective thinking process...Something that has helped me figure out what I want to believe is critical thinking. That's a subject I became interested in while in TWI - after taking the Renewed Mind Class by Walter Cummins. I began reading books that dealt with the art of clear thinking. I'm reading a good book right now: Critical Thinking: Tools for Taking Charge of Your Professional and Personal Life by Richard Paul & Linda Elder....I think the 7 factors involved in how we change our minds is pretty helpful too - you might want to look at the stuff I copied from Gardner's book: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=9660# which is my initial post and then this one that actually defines the 7 factors: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ndpost&p=228730
hiya Oaks - Among the Jewish traditions and teachings is the theory that Adam and Eve did do exactly what they were supposed to do, in that the eating of the fruit gave them an opportunity to learn and grow. I can't remember exactly how it worked out and will have to go back and find it - then I will post it for ya.
If they did what they were supposed to do, then doesn't that negate "free will"? AND, if they did what they were supposed to do, why would God set it up that way? Condemning them right from the get-go, isn't it? Setting them up to fail - to screw up and get in trouble - setting them up to die?
What the heck kind of God is that?
I'm genuinely asking. Not trying to be a sh1t. It just doesn't fit with the all loving God of free will.
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Sunesis
OK, I'll have at it. First, I disagree with your premise of sin, as people making human errors. God does forgive people their mistakes. The original sin, I believe, is something far different. It has nothing to do with our errors, foibles and mistakes. Sin is separation from God. Mankind is separated from God.
For some background to explain myself - bear with me.
Imagine, a darkened theater. All of a sudden out of total blackness, the lights come up. There on the stage are the most beautiful angelic beings ever created, they shine like jewels in ways we cannot imagine. The head of them, and their mediator, between the creator who created them (God) and the head of these magnificent creatures is the angel of light, Lucifer. Earth is their home as is the universe, but earth was Lucifer's domain and was given him to steward, as we know that all of the sons of God (angels) rejoiced when the earth was made.
At this time, there is one perfect will (God's), all creation runs in perfect joy and harmony. The worship and love between Creator, creature and created knows no bounds, and the mediator between this flow between Spirit (God) and physical creation is Lucifer.
Time passes, Lucifer thinks, maybe, since I'm so beautiful and the head and God's right hand man, helper, and mediator, just maybe, some of the worship should come my way too, maybe I should be ruler, in fact, I will ascend to the most high, in fact, there's no reason why I can't rule, in fact, I should be above God. Claiming God's glory as his own (after all, he deserves it), his hubris becomes his downfall.
Now, there are two opposing wills in conflict.
Result? We read about this in Gen. 1:1. Lucifer's fall was catastrophic. When ever there is a flood (this first one and Noah's), or total destruction (sodom & Gomorrah - because of strange flesh, angels), or the one to come by fire, it is always in response to something horrendous Satan or his spirits have caused that is abhorrent. It is so abhorrent, in ways we cannot understand, that is must be destroyed - because it has been totally contaminated and corrupted.
Anyway, the earth becomes without form - there is total darkness in the universe. Waters totally cover the earth. In front of the whole universe of creation and angels, Lucifer cannot put it back together again. He cannot give light, he cannot cause the waters to recede. His powerlessness is made known to all of creation. He after all, was still just a creature, not the Creator.
Finally, God puts it back together again (Let there be light, etc.). Now God creates a new creature - man. Was Adam the first man? I don't know, I don't think so. I believe he was inserted into human history, as Christ was.
But - Adam was created. There are only 3 beings that God specifically says he created: Angels, Adam and Christ. All others were made. Adam was not just a man as we think of men. He was created to head up this newly put back together earth. Earth was now man's home. Adam was the mediator between God and man. He now takes Lucifer's place on earth and has dominion over the earth. Lucifer in his fallen state, now watches helplessly as this puny clay being, rules over what was his creation. How dare God do this to him? How dare God gives this little clay being the authority and mediation that Lucifer once had? He is enraged. Adam took Lucifer's place and was the new mediator. He was God's new creation.
Lucifer must now get man to give his allegiance to him. Then all will be his again.
God freely gave Adam access into him. As God gives freely, man gives freely. Its a dance.
Then he falls. He eats of the tree of knowledge. Instead of allowing God to give to Adam, Adam takes from God (the knowledge). Instead of freely fellowshipping with God, Adam believes the glorious being, Lucifer in the Garden. I imagine Lucifer showed himself and his angels in all their glory to Eve and to Adam. Lucifer makes a bargain with Adam. In return for this glory, power and knowledge (hey, how come God's holding back from me? I want to be like them!) Lucifer possesses - he will give it freely to Adam, so he can become as a "god." In return Adam will give Lucifer the dominion he has over the earth. Adam says - deal.
Adam falls via his free will - he made a choice. This is catastrophic. Earth now becomes, once more, Lucifer's dominion - to ruin once again.
Lucifer thinks he will now have man's allegiance. He's won! He's beaten God - He's got his dominion back. But, guess what? God throws Lucifer a curve ball. God gave man free will - he's not a robot. God puts enmity between man and Satan. Now, instead of two wills, today you have almost 7 billion individual free wills running around. Satan does not have man's allegiance and can't possibly control millions and billions of creatures who have their own free will. He was foiled again.
Now, there is need of a Savior for mankind. You're right, God could have blown off man and said, let him live in hell on earth without me (imagine a world without God - that is hell - think, Auschwitz) - with no light, no love, no kindness, etc.
Adam's fall was not about making a human mistake, it was the fall of a created, noble creature, who willingly chose to worship and live under the dominion of another creature, whom he thought was greater than God. He sought to become a god, he sought this knowlege from satan - if he did as Satan said he would know knowledge. He chose not to worship God and to worship the creature instead.
Mankind then needed a redeemer. Mankind and creation needed redemption and to be freed from this evil dominion (the whole world lies in wickedness - i.e., the world lies, like a baby, in a cradle of wickedness - it cannot escape). You know the rest of the story.
God's goal is to bring the universe, earth, and all creation into that perfect harmony it once had before Gen. 1:1. Into perfect holiness, joy and love - only the ONE perfect will of God can bring this about.
Man's will can never bring this about. Man can never, by any work, ever make himself holy enough to enter into God. That is why Christ is our perfection - he cleanses - or, ends our separation from God, makes us holy and brings us into the presence of God - while here on earth, and in the new heaven and earth to come.
God, in his love can never overstep man's free will. Man chooses who to love. Our soul's journey here on earth has one purpose: to decide who we will spend our time with on earth, and our eternity with. We can choose to be with God or not to be with God. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. God cannot, and will not "kill" a man's soul. It will always live, the question is, where and with whom?
God doesn't "send" people to hell. Forced love for a person or God is not real love, it is submission. God will never force us to love him.
If a man chooses and desires not to be with God, in the end, God must grant him that desire - it would be possession to force someone to want to be with him. There are many who hate God, mock him, spit on Christ's sacrifice - God will give them their desire to live without him. That is the only loving thing God can do.
There is a place where God is not. Where a soul may live without God. Its not punishment, its simply being given your desire. Be very careful what you wish for.
Christ is holy. He is the entrance into God for us. He was necessary. Any man, who so desires may come. Christ was necessary.
Make any sense?
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bliss
I personally, and doctrinally think it is not a matter of forgiveness but a matter of reconciliation.
Legally, since Adam and Eve broke God's commandment, the penalty was spiritual death. In order to get that spirit back (legally, because God is just) He had to send a saviour to redeem mankind, the relationship with God. ( I still believe this)
Lets say one of your children takes your car without your permission. The law says you have to be old enough to drive. Your children know this, but being 12 years old they decide to disobey anyway.
They get in the car, and drive down the highway and hits another car and both are totaled.
Do you forgive your child for disobeying? Of course you will. Is there some kind of legal problem to deal with that is still there? Yes. Just because you forgive your child doesn't mean there is no consequences.
Once the legal issue is resolved, then you can move on as long as the judge doesn't revoke a future licence.
Lets say you, the parent, now have to pay a price. $100 whatever to the court, as well as damage to the other persons car. But, legally, your child would have this on their record, but because you paid the price, the judge can be merciful and clean the record so he doesn't have to pay for it later. Now, you forgave him for disobeying and justice forgives him.
To me, this is a mediocre example, but since you used your own children, I did for the sake of arguement.
We can go to God's word and look.....
2Cor 5:18, 19, 20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled (re-connected, united) us to Himelf by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation ( re-connection);
to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling (re-uniting/connecting) the world unto Himself, not imputing (reckoning) their transgressions to them; and having laid upon us (the responsibility or burden of ) the message of the re-connection. On Christ's behalf therefore we are ambassadors.......be ye re-connected to God. (paraphrase, from the companion bible)
This is not a "forgive and forget treaty", but a command to return to God by means of the new connection, only available by the death and resurection of Jesus Christ. We now have the access to God that was lost in Adam.
I will pray for you sprawled out, that you can see with your spiritual eyes. I hope that you aren't giving God the black eye because of TWI.
But, as always, this is where I put my faith and heart. Opinions do vary.
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allan w.
My take quite simply is that Adam and Eve WERE forgiven and went on to live a long life, however THEY had opened the 'door' for some horrible side-effects.
Question for you...If you had 2 or 3 beautiful children that you loved to bits but you knew to have them you would have to deal with a naughty, nasty brat first-born, would you still go ahead and have the kids ?
I'm sure glad God still went ahead with the plan, aren't you.
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GT
If I was all powerful, all knowing, etc. etc. etc....
I would have had enough sense not to have the kids and think of a better way of doing it.
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dmiller
I think that is an excellent example --- not mediocre at all!
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Sunesis
What's the alternative? Create robots? If one does not have free will, he is a robot, he would be a slave to the creator, not an autonomous being, where is the love and joy in that. One thing a creator does is create - like an artist. An artist must create, that's his mission, that's his joy.
God's plan seems to be unfolding nicely. In the context of eternity, this hasn't taken all that long. One thing I have seen lately is the unique importance of an individual's soul. There must be something inherently awesome in the soul for God to go to the trouble of rescuing it, or reconnecting it, so to speak. As Christ said, don't fear them which can kill the body, but fear him which can destroy the soul, i.e., the important thing about a human is his soul.
Since God cannot kill (yes, I know, people are killed everyday, but they are the victims of other men and their wills) that which he created - life - the soul, he has given you a choice to make - the onus is on you. I don't believe when you die its oblivion, that's it lights out. That's a nice cop out, a nice excuse to not have to make a decision.
I have seen, that that which was created perfect was corrupted. In order to have a steward over his creation (Lucifer, Adam, Christ), the steward must have free will to make decisions. God's plan is simply to return to the uncorrupted perfection and free will, love and joy with his creation that was before Gen. 1:1. We live our lives here for a split second compared to eternity. Where do we want to go?
Those who in their hearts chose not to know him, to not be with him, will not be. There's a lot in the Bible about this place where God is not. I'm not talking about a place of burning fire. I sometimes think God uses images to represent a place that cannot be comprehended. If people seriously thought, what would it be like to live in a place where there is no God, what kind of life would it be? A place where you and the disobedient ones whether human or angel, live in a place that has no God - no love, no light, no kindness, no possibility of crossing the chasm into "true" life with God, knowing you chose to be there and to make your abode there, because this was your true desire, I think people would possibly think deeper.
There have been several books written about people's near death experiences who did not go to "heaven" but went to the place of no God. I think God is teaching people who are teaching it to others - that this is serious. I think the time is short and people are being given revelations and visions in order to win others. Things that were commonly known in the OT about this place are being revealed again and brought to light.
But, the invitation has been offered, now the ball's in your court, the choice is up to you. Its God's will you come to him and be with him and enter INTO him through Christ. That's his will. But, he cannot, and will not, override your will. As I said, who and where do you want to spend eternity with?
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George Aar
Imagine for a moment that you live 5000 years ago.
You have no knowledge of the sciences of biology, chemistry, or modern medicine. Certainly no real understanding of germs or viral infections and the like. And life is short, brutal, and unforgiving.
What do you think you might do? Would superstition maybe play a key role in your day to day living?
Wouldn't you try to appease the "gods" that are "out there" so as to maybe live for another day or two?
And if you were going to cook up some sort of faith to believe in, something that would give you a sense of wellbeing, even when your senses tell you different, wouldn't it look a lot like what we call "Christianity" today? Or maybe Judaism, or Islam, or Hinduism, or...?
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allan w.
George...are you referring to the 'age of innocence'- where men acted according to the integrity of their hearts..you know..where God kinda' winked at ??!! Before the Law sort of thing.
Now we know more and understand more and can believe more. Do people really act any less brutal or less ignorant, or less egotistically, stubbornly ??
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GT
Given all the powers attributed to yahweh, then wouldn't free will be a creation of his? Is not the feeling of joy pre-programmed to be experienced when the designer deemed he wanted it? How can free-will exist when yahweh is said to be omniscience? All my choices are already known to him. How can I alter the already known future? If I try, yahweh already knew I would. This would seem to invalidate free will.
Alternatives? I think a good start would be a planet where the life on it did not need to eat each other in order to survive. How about a supply of food that isn't life itself, that provides all the nutrition needed.
How about a planet that doesn't need to wipe out thousands of people occasionally due to natural forces? Do we really need vulcanoes, huricances, earthquakes?
How about a complaint desk? Somewhere to post your grievances against the almighty, and actually get a response?
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sprawled out
hmmm...do i jump into the fray, or just say "thanks for your thoughts?" it's tough for me, because i really have no interest in arguing about it, or trying to win anyone over to my way of thinking.
ah, what the heck!
i will say you told a good story, sunesis. well done. and it does seem to make sense, until you really think about it. first of all, from what i know of the bible (and i used to know a bit, back in the day), most of what you said is pieced together from here and there, really a cobbled-together theology that's been handed down, with the blanks filled in as needed. the bible doesn't really SAY half of that stuff. all that business about lucifer and the earth becoming without form--it's all just speculation. there's no way to really link one with the other. even the stuff about adam's fall is largely conjecture. NONE of what went on in his head and heart is written in genesis. none of that "how come God's holding back from me" stuff is really there. i get that it's nice and it seems to fit. but that doesn't make it true. or honest.
you also say things that simply aren't accurate, much like we were taught in twi, i'm afraid. you say, for example, that there are only three beings God specifically says he created, but you (conveniently) left out the "great whales" of genesis 1:21. it's right there, same hebrew word and everything. so your "adam the mediator" argument falls to pieces. (a nice one, though. the whole thing about adam being different, special. i don't think i ever heard it that way before.)
by the way, i never said anything like "God could have blown man off." you somehow read that into what i said. what i said was God would love him and forgive him. how you could translate that into "blow him off" is beyond me. but it shows that you're not really honest in your thinking. i'm not trying to be nasty in any way, sunesis. i'm just pointing out what i see. you're inventing meaning in what i wrote, just like you're accepting invented meanings for blanks in the bible.
sunesis, if you believe it and it makes you happy, i'm happy for you. but it just doesn't work for me. especially when your explanation is largely not even in the bible. much of it is just made up out of whole cloth. come on, how is lucifer's will on par with God's? they couldn't possibly be equally opposing--God's has to be bigger, stronger. i think it's THAT kind of thinking that really "gives God a black eye," as bliss called it. honestly, i think that all that mumbo-jumbo gives God a black eye. what I'M saying is that God is truly big, truly loving. all this other stuff, TO ME, makes God out to be a piker.
bliss--the whole business of what God could or could not "legally" do is just a bunch of hooey to me. "legal" means there's a law somewhere. perhaps a whole set of them. show me. where are these laws that God made himself subject to? where did it say--BEFORE ALL THIS HAPPENED--that IF man fell, God would have to send a redeemer? it doesn't. it sounds nice, but it's MADE UP. not even the epistles, which is the only place any of these "connections" are made, makes this "legal" argument. Romans 5 uses words like "judgment" and "condemnation," but you can't extrapolate a whole "legal system" from that. well, you can, if extrapolation is what you do. but that doesn't make it right. or true.
me personally, i believe in a bigger God than you seem to. a God who loves bigger, more perfectly than i do. a God who understands we're only human. one who wouldn't require something as barbaric as a blood sacrifice for me to "get right" with him. i'm sorry, kids, i just can't get behind a God like that. if you can, good for you. but no thanks, no church for me. :D
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Belle
I hear ya, Sprawled Out.
Those are the same things I wrestle with.
IF this God is all knowing, all loving, all powerful and everywhere present, then why would he set us up for failure? I mean, that's what it was. Is it like "I'll kick 'em while they're down so I can pick them up and make them love me"?
IF this God is all knowing, all loving, all powerful and everywhere present, then why couldn't he create the world with free will, but free will such that there's only positive outcomes and choices to be made? All goodness and light, sort of stuff.... IF he is this huge, wonderful God surely he could have done that. Why does free will have to include ugliness and evil?
Besides that.....IF someone uses only the Bible for the basis of their beliefs, then aren't they severly limiting themselves? Kind of like ONLY using TWIt material to study the Bible.
I don't have answers and since leaving TWI I actually have MORE questions than I did BEFORE TWI.
But I'm also more comfortable with saying, "I don't know" and "What difference does it make?" 
NOT that this doesn't make a difference - just saying sometimes TWI forced answers where there really isn't any and that these days I'm okay with not knowing some things.
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GT
Amen.
Nice signature.
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allan w.
So Belle...are you saying that life really sucks and you wish you had never been born ??
If you had a choice of never having been born or existed..is that the choice you would make ??
I seem to get that 'unthankful human emotion' running through these posts !!!
LIFE IS FOR LIVING
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Oakspear
No Allan, that was Jimmy Stewart in "It's A Wonderful Life"
I don't see what you see in Belle's post: more like "Be realistic: life isn't a bowl of cherries - what is this God dude up to anyway?"
One would have to be blind to think that bad things don't happen, and they don't stop happening when you "believe God".
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dmiller
Where --- (pray tell) did you hear He set us up for failure?? Eh?? :blink:
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dmiller
Yup --- sure looks like a *sting operation* to me!!!
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Belle
Well, David, the way I see it.... IF God is truly all the "all" things that we're taught, then why would he knowingly create a situation where he knew that "thou shalt surely die"? Why would he create "evil" and the devil? Why not create a true paradise where there is no evil, bad stuff, nothing that we could screw up? Why set up a situation where he'd have to have his son tortured and killed? Just doesn't make sense to me....not logical given the benevolent God that he's supposed to be. IF he really is all those things then it would be possible, no? He makes the rules, doesn't he? Seems to be a pretty messed up set of rules, imo.
I know my Daddy never put me in a situation where he knew I was gonna screw up. He never expected me to fail and did everything he could to make sure I was prepared to handle situations and tried to teach me how to avoid getting into a pickle. Surely God Almighty could have at least done that. *shrug*
Not saying I know all the answers, but that it seems to me that Adam & Eve were "set up" to fail and God not only knew it, but created the situation so that they would.
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CM
I don't think Adam and Eve failed.
I think what happened is exactly as it should.
Maybe the question could be-
Why Adam and Eve?
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T-Bone
Thanks Sprawled Out for an honest sharing/great thread idea! I've come to this thread several times and resisted the desire to post - because I wasn't sure what to say...And I kept wondering if I was having a knee-jerk reaction from my former TWI days like "somebody help that unbeliever over there - quick!!!!"...Honestly, there's not much I should say to try to convince you to think otherwise than the way you think now. I think questions like this each person has got to work out for themselves...I don't think you're asking for my thoughts on what I believe about that stuff.
I think everyone that leaves TWI goes through a big reflective thinking process...Something that has helped me figure out what I want to believe is critical thinking. That's a subject I became interested in while in TWI - after taking the Renewed Mind Class by Walter Cummins. I began reading books that dealt with the art of clear thinking. I'm reading a good book right now: Critical Thinking: Tools for Taking Charge of Your Professional and Personal Life by Richard Paul & Linda Elder....I think the 7 factors involved in how we change our minds is pretty helpful too - you might want to look at the stuff I copied from Gardner's book: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=9660# which is my initial post and then this one that actually defines the 7 factors: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ndpost&p=228730
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Oakspear
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CM
Evolution, Revolution
Stick that tree in front of me, I'll eat it too!
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Abigail
hiya Oaks - Among the Jewish traditions and teachings is the theory that Adam and Eve did do exactly what they were supposed to do, in that the eating of the fruit gave them an opportunity to learn and grow. I can't remember exactly how it worked out and will have to go back and find it - then I will post it for ya.
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CM
I think it fits perfectly with the title of this thread too Abi!
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Belle
If they did what they were supposed to do, then doesn't that negate "free will"? AND, if they did what they were supposed to do, why would God set it up that way? Condemning them right from the get-go, isn't it? Setting them up to fail - to screw up and get in trouble - setting them up to die?
What the heck kind of God is that?
I'm genuinely asking. Not trying to be a sh1t. It just doesn't fit with the all loving God of free will.
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