Lifted Up

The story says she signed him out of a mental institution a year ago just before they were married. Obviously she trusted him and therefore believed whatever he said. Just as obviously, she would have been better off(understatement) not to. You can't believe someone you don't trust. And it's hard to be trusted by someone you don't trust. and they knew each other as live people...not just as cyberspace handles.

And after Raf had been talked up, we still had a differecnce on this "loaded language" thing. Sure, there were some words special to TWI...but a full-blown vocabulary? I had a minor but interesting experience a year or two after being yanked out. I was with some people (felloe singles, actually) at the church I had drifted into. Being silent at the time about my TWI involvement, I listened to them talk about their contact with some local TWI people...I think it was at the hairdressing place Sushi remembers. They were remarking that they seemed pretty much like "normal" people compared to some other groups they had run into or heard about.

I agree with you on that. And, as a corollary, the biggest finger pointers are, logically, spending a lot of time doing it, leaving less time for God in their lives. I agree with it as a general statement...I see plenty of it (we probably all do)...although I wont argue about it applying specifically in this case.

A lot of this stuff is straight out of Lifton, and the rest I recognize as well...from my deprogramming. Of course, unlike Lifton, who presented these factors as absolute, these criteria are listed in degrees. It was the absolute nature of mind control and the other factors...such as Lifton's "milieu control" that made my deprogramming necessary...that is, no would ever could or would leave on his/her own, no matter how bad things got. On the freedom of mind discussion group, there was some fairly recent debate about mind control and deprogramming, and there seemed to be some sort of consensus, including from the moderators...and this is from people who believe in these criteria...that they werent absolute. Some of these numbers are getting pretty absolute. especially the 35. But I guess that's pretty pc for GS. And when Raf came in with his 22, I guess we had to get him up there some.

The candidate was supposed to have natural leadership ability. Othwise, as you say, the money thing.

To clarify that, I meant specifically being trusted to be believable...just like the question of me being trusted with personal details of someone's life.

...which is why that anyone who thinks disparagingly that it is partly the abused's fault for not leaving the relationship should remember your words above, put themself mentally in the abused person's place, and realize that the person may be trapped into fearing for her life no matter what move she makes.

Rascal, you are right. Nobody [/i]owes me anything. As I just got done noting on another thread, trusting with very personal details is hard enough to do with someone you know...let alone with an internet handle. I hear a lot about internet hanky panky in the world, relating to people who know each other only on an anonymous basis through cyberspace. We've even had a little of it over the years on Waydale/GS. Nobody owes me their trust and belief, and I shouldnt expect it. But that trust of course works both ways. BTW< I am thinking that your earlier post, though not directly addressed, was directed at Oldies. I can't and won't speak for him. But I have not dismissed anyone's first hand account, as far as I know. In fact, I have ahd some occasional success in learning about abuse in TWI, starting right off the bat when I first became involved in Waydale almost 6 years ago.

Understandable, Ex. Very understandable. It can be very hard to trust someome in personal matters, most especially when they are anonymous handles just communicating over the internet. But it works both ways. And we can't expect to be trusted by people we don't trust. That is true no matter how valid the reasons are for the mistrust. By the way, as Paul Harvey says, here's the rest of the story...well, some more of it anyway. I hope this works; I have rarely posted links. More details Hey, I did it right I guess. And there was a history.

Disclaimer: I was not around during this time; I had been long before yanked out. But it is for that very reason I endeavor to learn more about that which I know nothing about those years as well as other aspects of the TWI life (hurts, abuse) I was not aware of. In my attempts to learn more, I have run into that roadblock a few times...people not telling me things because they claim I wouldn't believe it. I see it just as an excuse, such as the time someone claimed I didnt deserve someone's personal testimony, because if I didn't believe their second hand description, I wouldn't believe the person it actually happened to. As I said, I wasn't around at the time. My memories of Vince come from several years before, at HQ in 1979. He seemed somewhat skeptical about trusting someone. Of course this was based on only a very few personal encounters. But he even looked at me funny once when I gave him my professional judgement (not revelation!) about the weather during the next few hours one day. So, based on my extremely sketchy experience, I am not surprised that he didn't want to trust you with the specific information. However, you are right IMHO. He didn't owe you anything...but details and facts would have helped you understand. What he did owe you is not to expect you to believe him talking about how bad things were, but not telling you what was bad.

It's been a while since I stopped in...partly because of my late spring and summer drought...and partly because of my long time ago TWI departure...that is, the only part I can really identify with is near the beginning...that first 8th corps residence year. Now I can get out of my slightly selfish mode and add my prayers for the now and near future.

I wouldn't say that. I have seen good words for you on numerous threads. "Why some people don't get the abuse stories" currently on page 3 of "About the Way" is one good example I can think of, but that is by far not alone in threads showing support for you. Some people may fit into the category you describe above. And, using my personal putting-myself-in-the-other-person's-shoes-as-best-I-can technique, I can see how those people, even if it were just a couple, might hurt extra big. Plus I have no idea how people think ouside the GS world. But it is certainly not true of GSers in general. You certainly have gotten plenty of support here.

Okay, that's it; been over 6 months. I refuse to let this thread drop out of sight.

I haven't had any problem at all with my belief in God given what I know about the field of the atmosphere. One of several interesting aspects that stands out...and this applies to other fields...is that the human mind has trouble conceiving of the energy levels involved in nature. Even the power of a single thunderstorm cell dwarfs anything people can do, including man made nuclear energy...let alone a tornado or a larger scale storm...such as a hurricane. And speaking of nuclear energry and relativity (I'm not an expert there, but I DID take a college course on both subjects...(at the time we could never figure out why meteorology majors were required to take that course, but it turned out to be very interesting. I even aced it.) ...and the implicatiopns of both the energy levels involved in that science and the distances involved in the universe (BTW I took two astronomy courses also, the ones that were for majors) and the relativity part of it were mind boggling. The point is, we have no real conceptions of the power of nature right around us, let alone the power or distances involved in the universe. Is it astounding that we would have trouble comprehending or believing the power of God? I'm not writing this to convince anyone that "there is a God", because some have trouble believing that an "intelligence" can have control of such power. But between my limited knowledge of what is in and what goes on in our world and our universe, and my limited knowledge of the concept of entropy, and a few other factors involved, I have extreme difficulty not believing in God.

Re: the title of this thread...and a truly honest question...have you ever thought of posting yours here? Re: the rest of the post...evidently the neighbor acted right away and called the police. I wonder if there had been any prior incidents or evidence of trouble in this home that may have been discarded. I'm not asking you because I realize this is an AP news story, and it is possible you may know no more than I know, which is what is written in the story.

He suffered no ill effects, I assume...

Oak, no problem. After all, Over the years, I have mentioned my deprogramming several times. Garth, since you have always been well aware of how I have viewed my deprogramming experience, you may have assumed that it was not "successful", that is it didn't get me out. It did, but only because from my point of view, my family was being held hostage...that is, I was not and could not be accepted as the same person while I was in TWI. It was so absolute....just as were the reason given to me as to why the deprogramming was needed, because neither I nor anyone else could ever leave TWI on my/his/her own, no matter how bad things got. So put huge, bold faced quotes around that term successful.

May I add that successful in terms of getting the person out isnt necessarily successful in terms of the person's well being.

NO it wasnt Ted Patrick...it was a bunch that was a little less extreme than I hear he was. However there was still the kidnapping and holding against my will. The harassment was not too much physical but a lot of verbal...usually several on me at once, never "one on one". Yea, Ias I said, I know about CFN. They still hold the trust to my wife's family's house they got when they came to the U.S. in 1983 as one of the two "Siberian Seven" families.

Since I havent been on much lately, I forgot that when you post a flick question here, you should hang around to monitor responses. besides, I had the feeling that no one who stops by here was gonna get it. I thought it would be easier. Maybe I am just too old. But I HAVE seen it on cable TV in the last year or so. Richard Widmark, Victor Franken, Cameron Mitchell...and one of the 3 American movies in which Bella Darvi appeared. A scientist (Franken) hires an ex-navy sub captain (Widmark) to investigate suspected Communist nuclear activity. They discover a plot to start WW3 by dropping an atomic bomb and blaming it on the U.S.

Christ for the Nations mentioned in the above quote.

Pardon me for going back to page one, but i hadnt read this thread before. I assume you meant your brother showed you a book...that it wasn't a book written by your brother. Not that he is not capable of writing a book; I know nothing about him...just deducing from the way you posted. If so, I am mildly curious who wrote and/or put out that book way back then. CFNI sponsored my (future) wife's family when they came to the U.S, leading to our many excursions to TX over the years. Anyway, the above list sounds pretty similar to what my deprogrammers threw at me. All the above named groups and others (such as Scientology) were on their "list". Now, in theory, Jesus Christ being God or not was not a factor, or so I was told...ithe methods used were supposed to define a group as a cult or not. However, in practice, it was no doubt a factor; certainly in my case, and related to the Lutheran Church through which my deprogramming was instigated.

Allright, somebody cheat or something. The quote is searchable.

WW, I know the words are different, but you sound just like VPW in JCING where he expressed the need to clarify the definition of the Trinity before refuting it.

Gee Raf, you almost sound like a moderator. Now how do you get that into the actual thread title without bugging Paw?