Lifted Up

Any examples of Muslim leaders who have publically denounced the murder of those who leave Islam? Sine you say most Muslim leaders, and you know about them, you should have some examples.

And as long as I am calling on people, let's get Simon back here. He gave me trouble about my Indians a year or two back. What can he say now???

Not really replying to this post, but where are you??? You gave me trouble about my Indians the last couple years. Now get over to the baseball thread and give me your answer!

Now they've done it, doubting Linda! (I refer to your hesitation to join the bandwagon earlier in the season). Now to see if they can win a game against the Yankees or Sox (2-11 this season; see earlier post).

Okay, i guess we are pretty close. If we HAVE to give a gift to someone (forgiveness or otherwise) what meaning does it have? Some of the best gifts I have received have been the unexpected and unrequired; the two of which usually go together. And of course they have been true gifts, from those not expecting something back.

If this is true, then God can forgive someone without that person repenting, if the person/people who were wronged do the asking. I have read about cases where the family of a murdered person forgave the murderer, with no sign of repentance or guilt admission on the part of the murderer. I still think forgiveness is a gift, and a gift has no effect if the receiver rejects the gift. Of course we can still offer that gift and the opportunity to accept or reject it.

Pardon me everyone; just thought these quotes deserved repeating.

Maybe I am not really that different on this. My take is that if God commands us to forgive, and we do it, that doesnt mean the person is forgiven. Forgiveness is a gift of mercy...and as any gift, it has to be accepted. And someone cannot accept a gift if they don't believe thay have done wrong. Maybe you can call it an offer of forgiveness.

I don't really think there is anything that indicates that whether or not we should forgive someone depends on the nature of the sin. In practice, of course, it is easier for any of us to forgive someone for accidently bumping into us on an elevator or something than it is for some of the more grevious since we can all think of. It can be very very hard to forgive in fact...so I agree that I can't tell someone else they have to forgive someone for a particular wrong. (I'm not God, am I?)

True, true...but the last few years it has been the Sox and Yanks giving the Indians fits. This season, 5-5 versus the Angels, 2-5 versus the BoSox, 0-6 versus the Yanks.

I don't care who they play...though they first have to get by the Sox or the Yanks. You know the Tribe is peaking at the right time when Joe Borowski pitches a 1-2-3 9th inning save.

That is one way to avoid answering the question. But here we go again with the emphasis on numbers; again we have to be in the millions for the event to be horrible I guess. Your "millions" is repeated twice more later in your post. For someone who said, "I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot", you seem to attach a lot of importance to "millions". But by putting so much evidence of the numbers, you appear to be admitting that hundreds of thousands of Jews at least (Your lowest number was in that range in your earlier post) were gassed by Hitler's regime. And the motivation was rather plain, according to Hitler's writings about the Jewish people, two of which (out of many, very well documented I will add) I included earlier. I figure that if you were advocating that it didn't happen at all, you wouldn't have quoted all those numbers. What is also telling is your apparent attempt to camouflage the deaths of Jews gassed within all the deaths that resulted from World War II. Again, it seems to be an admission that these deliberate deaths occured, and that you are only attempting to decrease their significance.

I think it you have well established your disagreement with our official government policies regarding israel. I simply want to establish, in line with the title of this thread, whether or not you agree that the holocaust happened, even if only at your lowest numbers I discuss above, and whether ot not you think it was wrong. You are of course entitled to your opinion on its relevance or lack thereof to what you think out current policy should be.

How about JeffBlackburn USAFret???? Anyone seen him around?

Have I been gone that much?? :) But then, as I said in chat the other night, too bad I was yanked before I had a chance to mingle with the 10th. You, Groucho, dooj, etc etc.

maybe someone thought we were gonna wind up arguing over this.

Right, It wasn't just jackass speak, inspite of the "trouble" Balaam had in following instructions properly. and even after God had to use his jackass to get through. It didn't stop God from communicating directly with him. or, if you wish, the fact that God did so didn't mean Balaam wasnt messing up big time.

I didn't say that there is a current attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. I didn't say there wasn't. However, your use of the word current would imply that you are acknowledging the attempt before and during during World War II known as the holocaust...and that the lowest numbers cited in your previous post acknowledge that this attempt exterminated at least hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives. And, as you do not consider the Jewish people (or anyone) a parasitic didease that need to be exterminated, I assume you would acknowledge the hate involved in this attempt, as has been very well documented in writings by Hitler and others. You are welcome to confirm or deny that my assumptions are correct. I am stating it this way because you appear to have objections to the current policy of the United States regarding Israel and what you consider current special treatment of Jews. I will acknowledge that agreeing that there was a hateful attempt in the past to exterminate these people does not require you to support current policy. You are of course fully entitled to argue the meaning (or lack thereof) of this historical event.

I think that is a fair statement. or would be, had it not been accompanied by what immediately followed it.

Happy Birthday to my elder!

The Dodgers have been my second team for most of my life, were third for my Senators years in the 60s to the start of the 70s, and have been second again since. A fairly distant second but still second. Duke Snider, Jim Gilliam, Don Demeter, Larry and Norm Sherry (Larry was one good home run hitting pitcher), then of course Don and Sandy in the 60s. I still rememebr Sandy's perfect game which was almost a double no hitter; the Dodgers got only one hit and they got it in a different inning than when they scored their only run.

That might seem not to be the case since you opened your direction with the statement. "It's obvious who is the one person responding with TWI-tactics."

WTH, you and WW may disagree with me for widely different reasons, but I stand by my earlier post (on 9/12) that the numbers dont matter a lot and don't change anything, given that those numbers, even by the lowest figure you mention, are very substantial. I'll let the two of you bounce those numbers around if you so desire. What we do have is a stated desire and attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Of course if you believe, as Hitler did, that they were ( are) a parasitic disease that needs to be exterminated, and not real people, then extermination of them would be a good thiing. I assume that is not your belief, but let us assume momentarily that the lowest figure you give in your post is correct...356 thousand jews gassed...is that a horrible thing to you or not? Or are you going to work on getting even that figure lower until it gets to zero?

Abi, now you're reminding me of my deprogramming.

Yes, He did, but before that, in versus 9, 12, and 20 the conversation was a little more direct than that, I do believe.