Lifted Up

One eye opening thing to me was that it was not just in the 70s...but at the start of that decade, long before chicken's heads were coming off on those 8th corps campouts. Specifically, I am glad Kristen included that Life Magazine article about the "groovy Christians"...presumably in the glory days.

Simon, you're showing your age...but not as much as I do sometimes. "Back in the old days..." I could watch games such as when Tom Cheney struck out 21 batters in 16 innings for the Senators (yeah, those Senators again, !#%@*%@! that Bob Short), or further back in my Dodger days (The Sherry brothers, Johnny Podres, then in later years Don and Sandy...)

Either that, or you just happened to time your post just when a very knowledgable person(just as you are, of course) was ready to pounce on it. My problem is that I'm so old, I still know titles like "Maverick", "Mission Impossible", and some others better as old TV series. One of these days , though, I will get one of these and get to post another quote from one of my old fart movies. I'm still mad at myself for not getting "The Great Escape" some time ago.

I had a little more reflection on this point, which I just expressed on the 8th corps thread. If we think about how someone nearby was hurting while we were having fun, self restraint wont be needed, or at least not as much.

From my point of view, there were quite a few fun things that happened in res. For just one example, I can always joke about the time on the TX farm when, in the middle of a dark night, I entered the wrong porta john...then as luck would have it, got walked into by someone trying to use the RIGHT potty. Ha ha ha ha ha ha..... Of course, not everyone had such fun on their TX farm trip...a little sobering to think of some things that were going on, possibly at times when I was having so much fun. yes, it happens all the time in this world, terrible things happen to people while we are having fun. And if we banned having fun on that basis, we might all die. But when something terrible happens to someone doing the same things at roughly the same times and places, it hits home. If something terrible happens out in the open for all to see, it is hard to go on having fun. Who could think of playing baseball on that opening day years ago after umpire John McSherry collapsed and died? If it happens under your nose and you find out about it years later, you don't have to deal with going on with the fun you were having at the time. But it sure makes you pause when you do think about those times.

OK, I guess your sarcasm is justified. I didn't se your "clearing up" post since I was going through the thread from the top, and didn't check the rest of the thread (as I should have) before replying. Though i still think Rocky made a good post (before your "clearing up"), I certainly didn't have to add to it after your reply.

Thanks. I can't help thinking of the classic family history example from years ago, runner Jim Fixx.

Sigh, the world is full of great ideas that are "easier said than done". Hasnt this idea popped up before in the case of abuse victims? Or maybe it has and I'm not supposed to know, which is perfectly fine. In fact, the more something like this is publicized, the more problems there would be I guess. I think Paw admits to the moderators circle because there should be no one who objects to that.

I think LindaZ came up with an authoritative explanation on the "caught my eye" thread. Rocky, I'm going to have to visit the political forum more to destroy my idealistic view of you. Everything I have seen you post outside of that forum lately has been making sense! You don't suppose I would find out the same thing in that other forum, do you?

Wash n Wear, Rocky, glad you are coming through this, Just curious... Do either of you have a family history of heart disease? I know that is one possible important factor.

An overdue response here; I think Oldies has a valid point, and that is what I was thinking of when I talked about Kristen's book not being a lecture. I really can't fault her in the least for the comment Oldies quoted.

I think that is because she did as good a job as anyone possibly could of writing as she was feeling at the time all this was happening, and not as if she were looking back so many years later. I wrote a response on her blog that I could not call her a great writer ( or say she isn't a great writer) because I am nowhere near being a literary critic. But I may have to amend that thought a little, because such a style of writing...an honest style...obviously helps the reader live someone's biographical experience. I might add...and I think I mentioned this on some other thread...that I did have a minor lesson in "loosening up" in the 8th corps that was a little flag to me that abuse such as Kristen went through could have happened.

If I didn't have so many demands, or if it were on my side of the cities, there would be more hope for me going. As much of a buffet nut as I am, though, I'm not sure I could make it anywhere the other side of Luverne for all our busyness. Well, I'll Never Say Never Again though...will see.

No hint of anything like that in the 8th corps either (or from my first branch leader at Indy who was 5th corps BTW). Seems to me such an edict would be almost an announcement that things were going on; would they have dome that?

When I say/write something, I try to put myself in the other person's shoes. And by the other person, I realize it might not even be the one to whom I am speaking. I guess I try to assume the person might be real seinsitive and perhaps easily hurt by what I might say, even if it is not my intent to hurt. What some people might call over sensitive. It is not too hard for me to do, since, I guess I am one of those over sensitive people. Often been hurt by things I shouldnt be hurt by. Things another person might have said or done without the least intention to hurt me.So I try to think, if another person is like that, could I be hurting them? Of course I slip up at times. Some time ago, i thnk it was something like three months but not exactly sure, I got snapped at hard for something I said in chat. Was I unfairly snapped at? Does it matter? I thought about what I said, and realized the reason why I got snapped at. I know that if we try to be sensitive to what someone else is thinking or how they might be affected, we might be able to avoid hurting them. Avoid personal attacks? geez, dont I now it well that there are words a lot more innocent than what ANYONE would consider a personal attcak that can still be devastating. On the other hand, seemingly over sensitivity can have an up side. I mean, not just avoiding hurting someone deeply, but doing something wonderful for them. I think Abi sensed that I was feeling some hurt for anyone who might have had the terrible things done to then as were done to Kristen. I guess it was really a matter of trust, for as more than one poster has said recently, words can be artfully crafted to sound so nice. Frankly, I wouldn't have trusted me either. I'm male, and even most of us will admit we can't really feel a victim's hurt. But Abi trusted me that I was doing my best. And she helped me understand, in a wonderful way, without lectures or even loving reminders. And she knew exactly where to step in. waiting for me to tell her how much I wanted to read that book. Kris is a wonderful lady, and I think she understood with great sensitivity that she would help people understand about her hurt a lot more by simply telling bout it a lot more than by any lecture. And I hope i can be sensitive enough to remember that I can hurt her by treating her account as a loner. She is in the people helping business because she WANTS to help others, and I realize there were quite a number hurt as I was not...including some hurt to the degree she was, perhaps even greater. Without Abi's trust, I think I would eventually have gotten and read Kris's book, I think. I just can't be sure that I would have felt the hurt as much when I read Kris's account.

...and since I see you seem to be logged in this evening, I'll double and redouble your happy birthday!

Shell, better watch that blood pressure! :) I dont think you used to be so, well, emphatic about expressing your opinion! But then I should talk, my attitude has undergone a few changes lately, thanks to several wonderful people. Yea, one in particular, but in the process I am also learning about how wonderful some others are. With you, I don't have to learn that.

We don't see him around here hardly at all, but anyone who had the misfortune to be around me during that 1978-79 Philly WOW year deserves my best wishes!!!!!!

Happy Birthday!!!!!!! You deserve it!

Okay, It's just when you make a point about something being only second hand testimony, I assumed you were placing value on the first hand type.

Then let's speak of first hand information. Skeptic king here. OK, prince...someone else is the king... You know, I have been awfully picky on the need for first hand testimony on abuse. You read Kristen Skedgell's book? It is full of first hand testimony. The sexual attitudes in the corps, the idea that the corps men had to loosen up sexually, and that the corps women had to be ready to please the man of God, were not universally accepted by individuals when I was in, but the idea was slowly but surely spreading from leaders to individuals. Of course, it started from the top, unfortunately for Kristen. She had to please the man of God...the one at the top. BTW I was in the same corps (8th) Kristen was in. I was not abused as she was. But in the fall of 1979, in residence at HQ, I became a first hand witness to the loosening up doctrine. No, we didn't have sex, it was just a little minor "playing around"...Hmmm, now how does a lot of sex start now...but I always wondered if it would have stayed minor had I not beat it out of there to our own (male) side of the trailer Don't get me wrong, WD, I'm not knocking your skepticism. Even with the above, I have been a big skeptic on abuse. Ask rascal (civilly, please). I had tought standards which have finally been met. My question for you is, what are your standards? Do you believe the abuse COULD have happened? Are you willing to accept first hand testimony? To tell you the truth, I didnt expect much of that before I got and read her book. I am hard nosed about anti cult lecturing, having had it shoved down my throat in a deprogramming. Kristen's account meets any standards for first hand testimony. Greatly exceeds tham IMO. edited only to fix a minor typo. And to say trust me, I had no idea that I was making the 500th post on this thread, really.

I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but not tell anyone because of 1) shame, and 2) the person commiting the act had never done anything bad to her/him before. A young adult can have the same feelings, the main difference being the authority figure commiting the act is a trusted man of God, so it must be right. In either case, it is something that should be understood by anyone who is tempted to gripe about the victim waiting years before telling about the abuse, if he or she can ever overcome these feelings enough to ever tell about it. I am sure there are quite a few people waiting in line to tell the next person who makes that gripe a thing or two, but I'll get in that line.

Regarding my earlier post and my comments about my deprogramming...before I read her book, I would have thought I would have experienced great relief that Kris being "rescued", a term that has often been applied to deprogramming, did not mean that...but that she was really rescued as she was by someone who loved her. Back in, I think it was January, I meade some sharp comment somewhere, it might have been on Kris's blog, that I did not in the least consider myself rescued by my deprogramming. My view on that has not changed...for me. But after reading her account of multple and long time abuse, if that is what it had taken to get her out, and if I had found that out at the end of the book, I simply would have been relieved for her. How her life and family relationships would have turned out if that was what got her out is up for grabs I guess; and since it is not my life, I sure wont speculate about it.

I have long felt I needed personal testimony about the sexual abuse that is talked about so much on GS. I have been very skeptical on accepting everything that is talked about anonymously, second hand, third hand. I have had a few little clashes on this subject, most of which don't show up publically. There is a small handful of posters you could ask about this, one in particular whose answer got under my skin. What I would hope that these few people would understand is how all the talk about cults and mind control has never hit it with me, because I had all that stuff shoved down my throat during my deprogramming. Understand you will, if you think of any of the stuff you have had shoved down your throat during your life, whether from TWI or elsewhere. I was told my deprogramming was needed because neither I nor anyone else would or could leave TWI on my own, our minds were so blocked off. That has obviously been shown to be untrue, as many have left of their own. I remain convinced to this day that I would sooner or later have left on my own, as many others have. Of course, my bad experiences in TWI were minimal, and I had quite a few good ones. I'll bring this up again soon as a very imprtant factor in things. Not only did I not have the bad experiences, I was not abused as Kris was. I approached Kris's book with a ready to accept but critical and skeptical eye. It is just as well that before I read the book, I did not read the comment on the back cover by Michael Langone... "Some books hel readers understand how cults work, how they manipulate, deceive, and exploit people. "Losing the Way" tells a story. It does not lecture. It shares. Enter her world, and share her soul." It was better that I read the book and found this out for myself. Whatever one thinks of the other books referred to in the beginning of this comment, FOR ME, the only thing that would be of value was such a bok as Kris's. I didn't really expect to find it, except I was given a good hint by the wonderful friend who got me the book, and who started this thread. This book is purely her testimony, the testimony of a real live person, not an anonymous handle. the answer I refer to above that got under my skin was that I would not believe real personal testimony even if I had it. You know what? That doesnt get under my skin anymore, for a reason that this person and some others have recently given. Words can indeed be crafted to sound nice by anyone, and given the various types of skepticism and downright denial that this abuse even COULD have happened, I guess I wouldn't have believed me either. Neither have I (and knowing this person, I would never have) heard or seen this person say to me "Well there you have it, are you going to believe it now?" I have caimed to have "respect" for this person, but after reading Kris's book and dwelling on it a little, I can take the quotes off that word, put in in caps and apply it to some others around here. But I in no way feel bound by my own words. Maybe I should, but I don't. It is just that Kristen's testimony goes "above and beyond" my standards. It doesnt hurt, that I was in the 8th corps with her for a year at Emporia, even might have seen her during my apprentice year in Indiana. The fact that we didn't know each other well is almost immaterial. Just reading her describing some of the same events and tirades helps make her account even more real; even the much greater part of her account that takes place when I was not around. There are a couple little things, I remember differently, but I have no problem with that. First of all, no one has my memory for scripture or past events. Sometimes I am a little weak on people, especially in the short term, but everything else is pretty doggone clear, even back that far. I was once "reprooved" sharply (but quietly and privately) by John T. at HQ for being able to memorize Romans through Thessalonians word for word, but not remembering my shadow appointment with him. So if Kris and I have some details different, I have no problem there. But there are a couple of more imprtant reasons. I remember a lot of good things, so my slant on events is going to be different that what someone who suffered all that Kris did has. And along with this, if someone were abused as terribly as she was, they are goin g to remember that hurt a lot better than the myriad little details I can remember from that year. So I can uderstand if Kris doesn't joke about cutting those chickens' heads of and watching the rest of them flail around, as I have joked about on GS in times past. That brings me to another point of understanding. I now can feel a little better how someone recalling fond memories from TWI can by recalling such fondness hurt someone like Kris or others who doesn't have such fond memories of the same times. I dont think anyone should be barred from recalling good times; no way. But I think any of us who do should think a little of those who may hurt. For example, let's restrain ourselves when we are tempted to respond to someone with "hey, I though things were really neat with that camping trip".; and if we still want to tell about it, save it for a time and place seperate from their testimony. As for Kristen's testimony itself, I have no problems in the least accepting here accounts of abuse. And of course she makes it easier for others as well, because while I have long stated that I allow that it COULD have happened, now i really know that it DID. Oh, I have had a couple of other little quarrels with people who seemed more ready than I was to accept that the abuse by VPW and others happened, but wanted to place half or nmore of the responsibility on the victim. I will continue to have differences and quarrels with those people, but you may see me become much more, say, active, in stating my opinion. I may be a male (may be???!!!), but I do know how we taught...OK, I'll say it, indoctrinated...to do anything the man of God said, because it had to be for God, otherwise we would lose His love. I never had that big a problem with it while I was in, because I was obviously never asked to do the things that Kris was. Another thing...Kris was lin TWI much longer than I was, and it is interesting to see how far back this stuff goes. So Kris has written the truest of testimonies. If anyone wants to deny this, they of course had better first read the book, then get readt to take on those of us who know it to be true. I may have more to say, but that is enough for today. I did fine one significant problem with her book, but it is really my fault. I am pretty doggone hard on paperbacks, even well constructed ones, when I carry them around a lot, so eventually I know I'll need another copy. But considering how much the first one cost me :) , I think i can swing it

finished it. (first time anyway). Comments awaiting another thread I have reason to believe may be started soon by someone.