templelady

I agree with that The start of the problem is found in the next sentence That, on the surface, is not bad--we all do make that decision in our walks The problem arises when LCM states that 1) he is the ONLY available choice. 2) and bolsters his claim with outright falsehoods, macho chest thumping and Poor me's rather than Showing specifics of how he has changed and how he has applied the Word. Instead he again dodges the accusations leveled at him with less than full disclosure

A brief description of LDS beliefs regarding the Afterlife http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=t...r%3Bfield%3ARef I accept this structure because Heaven is not, imo, the cookie cutter place I was brought up to believe in in the Lutheran and Presbyterian churches. The one size fits all -"we' ll all spend eternity staring at God and singing his praises." didn't make me look forward to heaven then and it doesn't now. Heaven is tailor made for each person. For the Godly person whose Idea of heaven is to be able to sit and listen to all the operas ever written performed by the original casts--that my very well be his heaven. That would not be a happy place for the person who loathes opera to spend eternity. NO ONE can say which spot in Heaven ANYONE else is going to but GOD, Sure there are guidelines and it is obvious that you will have a "nicer" spot if you follow Jesus Christ more closely in your earthly life. (Some form of this is true In all Christian church teaching) But God is the judge of Hearts and as a loving and righteous judge He will see to it that everyone will be in a heaven that is perfect for them.

It breaks my heart -not because I am one of the Whining and crying--but that any person should have so little faith in their church that they should have to go to outsiders to be heard. That is like a Member of the Sunni Islamists going to the Shiites to be heard. Or a Roman Catholic having to go the Baptists. So tremendously sad

In a nutshell Craig's letter was all about supporting HIM when it Should have been all about supporting God and His Son Jesus Christ

Ands there lies the question--Who then Created God Which leads to endless discussion--interesting but not to become so over powering that we neglect our lives and duties

I'm sorry, but I really want to know, so can we derail for a second or PM me. Just what is the Christ Line--are we talking genealogy here? Don't ever remember hearing this phrase when I was in. (But that doesn't mean it wasn't around could be just that failing memory of advancing years. :) )

That is my point exactly .Actually I don't wonder at all--LDS are big on Freedom of Choice. You ask what we believe we'll tell you. What you believe, accept, your personal walk are just that YOURS. We are not your judges, we do not make predictions on your eternal state. Your Eternal state is up to God and we aren't him.

If by formula you mean a "recipe" ie. 1 cup faith, 2 confessions Jesus is Lord, simmer in a water bath of believing.............. No it isn't that simple. Yes you confess Jesus is Lord. Yes you believe he is the Son of God who led a perfect life, suffered and died for our sins and was raised from the dead. But there is more. YOU have TO BE a follower of Christ. That means in action and in thought. You need to be chaste, honest, virtuous, help the poor and needy, loving, forgiving etc. Every day you need to"renew your mind" (can't believe I used that phrase B) ) to follow in Christ's footsteps. ......... Saying Jesus is Lord is not a free pass that covers deliberate bad behavior

GOLLl DURN IT!!! There ya'll went saying that the emperor had no clothes For Shame Poor Craig his ME ME ME ME is so sad, I feel so Bad I mean how dare anyone complain that he hadn't changed when he hadn't changed. Real devilment there--pointing out the truth and all

THE family tree of the "radical" sects (all dates are approx) I. Radical Sects circa 1520 A. Annabaptists in 1521 1. Baptists 1609 the Baptists believe that God is an infinite and eternal spirit who is the source and support of all things. He has no form of body and is the same perfect spirit from the beginning. There is one God only --capable of manifesting three distinct and separate persons Father, Son and Holy Ghost. All are equal in perfection, distinct in office, but one in substance a Church of the brethren 1719 b Free Will Baptist 1797 c Disciples of Christ 1810 d Adventist Movement 1833 i. Seventh Day Adventists 1863 the Adventists believe that God is a personal being that is invisible and spiritual in nature He is omnipotent, Omnipresent and omniscient They believe in three persons God, the father a spiritual being,, Jesus Christ a being of the same essence and nature as the father and The Holy Spirit a great regenerating power e Southern Baptist Convention 1845 f Northern Baptist Convention 1845 g Churches of Christ 1906 h National Baptist Convention 1915 i National Baptist Convention of America 1916 ( a offshoot of the Baptists and Church of the Brethren 2 .Mennonites 1636 B .Congregationalists (brownists) 1560 (puritans) 1 1. Congregational Churches 1620 a Unitarian Churches 1825 the Unitarians Believe that God is a spirit , no tranquility or materiality, not transcendent but eminent. Do not believe in a trinity-- Christ was a Great Moral Teacher not divine b Congregational and Christian Churches 1931 C. Quakers 1647 Belive in a faith of experience God is known by the "inward Light" which is 'Christ Within" Since Belief in God, Christ or the Holy Ghost is known by "experience" do not espouse the Trinity in any form. For Quakers there is no heaven or hell or 2nd coming or resurrection 1 Mennonite Church 1683 ( not to be confused with the Mennonites of 1536) (Christian Religions Comparative Charts by Rex Bennett) For the record the LDS believe that God is the Eternal Father who has a body of Flesh and bones He is an exalted personage with an immortal body. His power is Omnipresent and therefore he is Omniscient and Omnipotent. There are three distinct personages in the Godhead God the Father, His son Jesus Christ, and The Holy Ghost who are one in purpose

Debate is what makes it interesting Judgement is for making the "Trolls" feel superior While the "trolls" want no debate. Those of us who debate and discuss allow the "trolls" since to deny them their rights would be against our values of free and open debate. As for the word "cult" , it is just a description--one person's opinion --having only as much validity as the recipient gives it.

A difference TWI abhorred--no poor- no downtrodden, no empty wallets for them . Really??? I always figured the gospel was the same for everyone--OOPS silly Me OUR BAIT --Not the Word of God .Dangling??? Teasing?? Cause people to hunger??? Christ would be appalled . Christ never trapped anyone--He preached freely and those who would follow did--no barbed hooks and lines dragging them into his followers .Yup-real godliness in that Lucky them Once having escaped the Clutches of TWI not many of us have ever come back. Ditto fish--once they feel the hook they look elsewhere for a meal unless they are very young and very dumb--But say that is what VPW preyed on isn't it??

Heaven forbid we should forget the REALLY IMPORTANT stuff

Had absolutely nothing to do with the validity of TWI or it's teachings.Had to do with an abusive spouse and "keeping the peace" Rules of battered spouses DO not make your spouse angry--- If what you are doing makes them angry-stop doing it. Not going to TWI not taking "piffle" made him Angry --fear is a great motivator--but not a great assist in making thoughtful decisions

?????

"i promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,,,,

Take That and that and That --YOu Stupid CAT!!!!

And why should I even care if i can "Prove" I'm born again to my fellow humans???!?!?!? After all the only one I need to "prove" I'm "born again" to is God and His Son Jesus Christ. There we go again with the "five Senses" Proving how we "rightly divide" the Word, proving our "stand" on the Word, Proving we can SIT and on and on For a ministry dedicated to showing the futility of the "Five Senses" we spent an awful lot of time catering to those same five senses.

Yeah twisting my words, or my personal favorite, deciding that I really mean A when I mean B. This is really annoying when, the party in question etither A ignored me or Be refused to "hear" me the first time around. I'm upfront--you want to know what I mean ask, but don't put words in my mouth I never said

And with VPW it was how he looked to Leonard How he looked to Fugit How he looked to MArtindale how he looked to Geer HOw he looked to us How he looked to the BOT ETC, ETC, ETC And IF, perish the thought , someone noticed that the emperor had no clothes, it was off with their heads Because it was not how he actually looked--- he was ready, willing and able to tell everyone exactly HOW he looked ---and Heaven help the dissenter who lacked the same vision

And since confessing Jesus is Lord, is the foundation of salvation (being born again) not being able to give such confession would, it appears to me, to preclude salvation. Thus tying said confession to SIT would preclude salvation unless you could SIT. Or at least that is my take (and many others), on that teaching. As to VPW saying the exact words "you aren't saved unless you SIT"-- you are correct those exact words never were spoken. I was alluding more to the statement you just quoted (that I didn't remember exactly)--the implication of Confession of Jesus as Lord, SIT and Salvation all being tied together in a neat little package But yes those exact words were used by the leadership in Alaska at "piffle" of course one of those leaders was Rich Urquhart which speaks volumes (but I digress)------ I also do know that at least one person who couldn't SIT, and wouldn't fake it, was told that they were possesed and so were not "born again" And that is where I received the understanding that SIT was essential to Salvation You must confess that Jesus is Lord You must SIT in order to be able to Confess Jesus is Lord Back dooring, it most definitely -- but still there

I think the big problem in TWI with SIT was VPW's skewed, IMO, interpretation ogf the whole Subject First he taught that SIT was the outward mainifestation of the Indwelling of the Holy Sprirt Never mind that the Bible says "by their fruit shall Ye know them" From there he went on to promulgate the idea that if you couldn' SIT you didn't have the Holy Spirit. and if, by extension, you didn't have the Holy Spirit you weren't saved--- This doctrinal nightmare caused anquish for many. Speaking in tongues is just one of the Gifts, and fruit is something else entirely. If you think about it--there is no reason anyone needs to speak in a different tongue if everyone present speaks the same language. CAn it happen anyway--of course Mnay sects outside of the LDS believe this. I just don't accept the whole idea that those who don't SIT are somehow less in the eyes of God when stacked againt the totallity of their lives.

Click on Posters name Scroll down page Under Communicate click send PM :)

I thought I'd lived the worse of it--but everytime I think I can't find out something NEW & WORSE I do. The pain, the anquish, the torn and shattered lives; all because of one man---It breaks my heart. Welcome Akarizmatik1--take your time it's a lot to digest but we are all here for you. PS GOOD MORNING IRAQ!!!!!

Sorry, had to run But what I posted above has been my position even in TWI Speaking in an unknown tongue meant that someone out there understood it without an interpreter. They being the interpreter themselves Just as in the Book of Acts where the apostles were heard to speak different languages by the hearer of same evewn thought they in fact were not