templelady

the word is FANATIC fundamentalists. Not all who are fundamentalist in their beliefs become fanatic. But FUNDAMENTALISM Is a prime breeding ground. Fanatics of any ilk have long ago left GOD in their dust as they pick an choose over select bits of scripture/theology/dogma to justify their inhumanity to their fellow man. Pat Robertson is as much a Self Styled MOG as VPW or LCM ever were. He should be treated with the same long stick as you would use around any venomous snake to ward it off..

If He exists, how do we know Him? The same way you get to know anyone. In His case you read the scriptures you talk to him (informal prayer) You look for signs of his presence ...A dragonfly unfurling its wings, a sunset, that sudden peace that comes over you and you realize that everything at least for today is gong to be okay... it isn't going to happen all at once (few of us have a Damascus in our lives). But just as you would strive to get to know a person who you wanted in your life you need to work on getting to know God. Too many people think of God as a hidden Lucy Van Pelt with her "5 cents please" sign out. Can we know Him? We can know him on a superficial level or we can feel him as a constant presence, we can visit occasionally , or not at all. You can know Him as well as you desire to Is the Bible reliable? If you mean 100% infallible--I don't believe that--but we put our trust everyday in things far more fallible--the brakes on our cars, the smoke detectors in our houses, the pilot of the plane--with no problem. The Bible was never intended to be a one stop fix-it-all If there is no God, as the topic proposes for discussion purposes, what are the other options? There are no other options-either there is a supreme deity or there isn't. Even if you accept a multitude of deity's the issues are the same. SO it is a pretty back and white issue in terms of whether it is real or not How does one deal with that conclusion? If you don't believe in a deity there is nothing to deal with ....you just go on about your business Is there something inside us driving us to the spiritual so that we need to fulfill that desire with something else? That is kind of a catch 22 --If you feel the drive to fulfill a spiritual need in your life--that would be the Holy Spirit trying to get through. So if you have that feeling and desire the mere fact you have it would prove the existence of GOD since with out God there would be no Holy Spirit. If on the other hand you feel the desire and the drive and refuse simultaneously to believe there is A God , Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ connection then you are left with the conundrum fog of why you have this desire to connect with something that is not real. Is there life after confronting the inconsistencies of the bible and those who claim to speak for God Of course, unless you add cyanide to your breakfast cereal--sorry I don't mean to sound flip but you do have freedom of choice... rejection of God does not mean that He is going to hurl lightening bolts at you ala Zeus. I Guess my point is that if you are still doing all this questioning, at some level you know there is a God you just aren't sure how to make him more real in your life. I have met true Atheists and agnostics ...they have no questions about their beliefs, just as I have no questions about my belief that Gods is real.

Okay now I have a question (if it sounds familiar it is because I just Plagerized Mark ) Ok my skeptical friends What is the quality and quantity of evidence that you can provide in order to show that there IS NOT a supernatural entity that is spiritual (i.e., not consisting of matter) and non-corporeal (i.e., does not occupy a finite space) in nature? Keep in mind that this evidence would, by nature, have to be effects consequent to the non -existence of this entity,.

Some of our corps had, in a great show of personal integrity, spilled the beans as to the going on at HQ and the mass exoduses, Ralph D was a personal friend of Paul and Kathy B and so we heard what they heard because they called a meeting of "like Minded" believers (leadership not included) and told us what he told them. I was already looking for a way out and lot of us made up our minds that night that we needed to seriously consider getting out. It was 1987 when the Urquhart mess hit the fan in Anchorage and of course the Dilley's were mixed up in that inexorably. (this has been discussed ad nauseum on other threads and I'm not going to rehash here.) What it boiled down to in Anchorage was that everything was exposed for all to see..Alaska is just a huge small town and 20 years ago there were only about 300,000 people in the entire state so news spread like wildfire. Leadership who knew about the goings on at the Urquharts, knew what my hubby was up to, and were involved in their own twisted scenarios were busy CTA and pointing fingers not so much in an organized vindictiveness as a shotgun approach to defuse the situation. Most of the really good people in TWI were already gone or rapidly distancing themselves. For me --when you are in the middle of a fight with the state and everybody but you has a copy of the rulebook-- things like going or staying with TWI get pushed to the back. I ultimately did leave--some stayed, if DIGI is around she knows more about 1990 on since I was gone by then

You know that you know that you know. That's how I feel about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Others here feel far differently perhaps Voltaire was closer to the truth than we realize--namely a thing exists only of you believe it exists. Whether I and a hundred thousand others see the table in the corner has no meaning to the person who sees a potted plant. I know God exists--but that is an exercise of faith-- if you lack the faith to begin with you can't exercise it Faith is indeed the word believing--and even though I don't buy the "negative believing yields negative results" $&^$% it does not change the fact that one who does not believe in a deity is likely not to recognize said deity if it walks in front of them.

Actually the LDS church explains it quite nicely--he came from his father who came from his father etc as far back as you care to go. As an old Thai woman was explaining to a young GI about the world being carried on the back of Four elephants balancing on the back of a giant sea turtle swimming through space. The GI questioned as to what the turtle was on and she said another turtle, and again he asked what that turtle was on and she replied that it was on a turtle also. Finally after a few more rounds of questions she said "Son, it's turtles all the way down" And you are right I can't tell you how far back the lineage goes or when it started or how or why. So that leaves us both pretty much at the same spot. Except it is far more rational in my mind for a creator that creates to exist -- as to try and explain scientifically how nothing would become something--and that is why I believe as I do. And I guess what it all come downs to , at least for me, is the tremendous strength and comfort I derive from Knowing a loving Heavenly Father cares for me--that doesn't mean life will be a bed of roses, after all it is the purpose of life to test our mettle, as it were, to see if we stand or fall. For those of you who lack my belief system--where does your comfort come from when all of mankind has deserted you and you are at the bottom of despair???

And here is the crux and foundation for all your arguments. Truth is truth it is not confined to one ministry or the works of one man instead it is manifest in many ways and many places shining for all who seek to see. The fact that for you truth is confined to the limitations of VPW and PFAL in and of itself gives the lie to it being truth. You cannot compare the teachings of one man, VPW, to the teachings of the Bible where the same truths are repeated by different authors over the span of centuries, the same can be said of the Book of Mormon. Truth does not demand that you look in only one place--instead truth demands you seek everywhere for it and embrace it when you find it. VPW and PFAL are seriously lacking in this arena.

But He is-- I can not even conceive of a world with no God. Try as I might the entire concept is so alien that I cannot even for a moment visualize how that is possible. If, for the moment, I set aside the idea of a personal relationship it still is impossible. Because no matter how many "big bangs" no body of scientific literature has ever explained where the initial building blocks, individual atoms of elements, much less the atoms themselves came from. Np matter how far you go from atoms to protons to ions to quarks they HAD TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE and science can't tell me where that is, but God can He made them

There was a movie loosely based on this incident--which I saw-(Which name escapes me entirely ) a couple of years ago. In France they eventually killed the animal responsible. Some zoologists think from the description that it was a hyena. How you ask did a hyena end up in the middle of France??? In those days up and coming nobility had their own menageries of wild animals -importing them form Africa and the India's-they feel this was an escapee.

BELLE!!! I say, Belle! are you here We interrupt our current programing for this special message I read a lot--I have not read this particular book but I have read the Gnostic gospels, also recently two books by Orthodox Jews called "The Myth Maker" (a repudiation of the Apostle Paul) and "Why the Jews Reject Jesus" plus many others over my lifetime. I have found them all informative -learned something from all of them. It is a weak faith that cannot listen to another viewpoint without collapsing. So get the book, read the book, read it like you read any other piece of information, learn what you can, if your opinions become altered--this is not necessarily a bad thing- and reject what you have to. It is a bad thing to close ones mind to any thing new , it prevents growth We now return to our regularly scheduled event with the artistic Garth and the InvisibleDan as commentators We find our combatants in their respective corners--Mike a bit bloody while Wordwolf bounces contentedly on the ropes waiting for the bell.

That depends I suppose on your Idea of Heaven/hell. If there is no heaven I will never experience life without physical pain I will never meet my paternal grandmother I will never get to know my mothers- either my birth mother or the mother that raised me who had serious mental health issues I will never get to bask in a love that is so overwhelming that it heals every hurt and every sorrow. That, to me, is a very scary thing. Fear like every other emotion is individually tailored. So I understand that from your perspective it isn't fear mongering but from mine and probably others it is As for the hellfire and brimstone--that is reserved for the devil and his minions --those angels that followed him and those who elect to worship him in this life. Being a follower of Satan is a conscious decision just like being a follower of Christ. The rest are cast into outer darkness. I guess what I don't understand in your argument is the reasoning that because "fear mongering" is used in religion that religion becomes somehow less valid. We use fear to teach our children-- fear of burns, fear of traffic, fear of arrest, fear of punishment, fear of unwanted pregnancy, fear of illness.... We may not teach it as fear but essentially that is what the motivation is,, if you do this bad will follow...so why religion should be exempt from the same teaching prospective is a little confusing to my mind. I will say that your posts are always informative and I enjoy them immensely even when I don't agree

Because of several events in my life I have irrefutable proof of his existence outside of religious doctrine and scripture. That said, as to why others don't have this proof I have no idea. Whether or not others would accept the irrefutable proof I have in my own life as proof from their viewpoint I have no idea. that is no more fear mongering than your suggestions that I. and countless others who follow the same path, are wasting our time and will reap no rewards in the hereafter for our dedication. It is in fact, merely the other side of the coin which you profess.

Assume for a moment there is no GOD... If I were to do that, a purely hypothetical exercise on my part, I would be required by the rules of logic to reevaluate every principle I base my life on. In that reevaluation I would be forced to come to the conclusion that if an action is legal, even of under my previous belief system not allowable, it would instantly become allowable since the foundation of the previous belief system would no longer be there hence the belief system itself would not be there. An interesting speculation.... Fortunately for those around me -- I hold the beliefs I do--since without that system there would be plenty I could do legally to make certain persons in my life totally miserable and enjoy it immensely Another way for me to look at is is unplesant IF I am wrong when I die I will be no worse off than anyone else If you who don't believe are wrong--It's going to be really nasty for all eternity

I remember my then husband telling me VPW had died. I was sorry to hear it but in all honesty I never felt any great emotional loss. I joined in 1982 had taken PFAL, but VPW was to me just someone in authority a long way off--who hadn't been at all helpful in the real issues ( at least the real issues as far as I was concerned) in Alaska After LCM came in power things got worse, a whole lot worse, very very quickly. I know that for those of you who were in the ministry longer and/or had met VPW this was a very painful and traumatic event and I am sorry you had to go through it. But I think for a lot of Believers that couldn't go ROA or had never seen VPW except on tape-it was far less painful--little did we know just how bad things were going to get..........

From the link Word Wolf posted I submit that you don't tell leadership anything. Because in the final analysis it is this "duty to leadership" that you are trying to get away from. You simply stop attending functions, check your caller ID before answering the phone and mark "Return to Sender" on any mail ( and put them on your blocked senders list on e-mail). If they show up on your doorstep say very calmly "I'm sorry you are trespassing , if you don't leave at once the police will be called." shut the door and if necessary follow through with the police. ( if they use the ploy of sending friends to do their dirty work-understand that since the friends agreed to do it--painful as it may be to accept-these people are no longer your friends) These are strong steps but as you employ each one you will find your self feeling more free and more in charge. Plus, by these actions you have made clear you wish no contact--and if they persist you will have set the foundation for legal action if it becomes necessary.

Medical science admits that "the will to live" is a powerful force in healing. {read Readers Digest for inspiring stories of some people surviving against all odds) it is equally true that the lack of this will has probably hastened some peoples deaths. But the key here is "SOME". The reality is that all living things are born, hopefully survive to adulthood, where they hopefully procreate, and at some point after this they die. That is life in a nutshell --born, procreate, die. When or why we die is as varied as the person involved. But that we will die is sure. Only the return of Christ and the first resurrection will stop this process for the faithful. (IMO) and then there is that second resurrection with plenty of death to go around. Unless you are "translated" like Elijah you must die to get to the next stage. That is reality.

I think I was in the transitional phase , at least in Alaska, We still did a lot of research--I remember doing teachings at Fellowship from my own research. But it got more TWI led PI as we went along .....after all how else could we have had the JOY [ ] of Athletes of the Spirit if it were not for the INSPIRED { }interpretation of the Word as revealed by LCM --Choke...Gasp ...Wheeze (I can't believe I actually managed that sentence.!)

I am alive (i think so at any rate--really tired tho") Doing okay --except for the tired WIll be back to post after the holidays. In the meantime here is a Christmas Card and since it is non-sectarian and kind of fun--you may want to take a peek even if you don't Ho Ho Love to all http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.asp?code=ER13610552

Right across the street from the Anchorage Pioneers Cemetery (the first one in Anchorage) the city has grown around it with it's green grass, lush trees, marble benches and walkways. Flowers and balloons decorate it in the summer and fall, while it sleeps under a glittery blanket of white in the winter. Wonderful neighbors, the dead, no loud parties, fighting, garbage on the street or junk cars.

We are all Sons and daughters of GOD The LDS church believes that President HINCKLEY is the Prophet seer and revelator for the church in our day and time (please don't side rail this to an LDS theology discussion.) but we don't worship him and most assuredly President Hinckley would never claim to be more loved of GOD than the rest of humanity or consider us to be less in God's eyes than himself. The Whole MOGFOT idea was rife with Idolatry

12th session PFAL My class Direct Quote "If you can't speak in tongues you aren't saved"

Not Only the Cops but the entire organization is described here You have to have leaders who follow God's will and second you have to have followers who are allowed to challenge leaders who aren't following God's will. TWI has neither

Oldies It Isn't the "godly truths" that are at issue here---it's the ungodly ones" One could say of you You seem to leave no room for the possibility that twi taught ungodly truths that one may find destructive and hurtful, while being held captive to the twi organization

Attention Oldies My religious beliefs state I am to have an exceedingly abundant life--that means by midnight today I want all funds from your bank accounts transferred to me as well as all personal property, title to your home and vehicles as well as any orther property you own. WHAT??? you aren't going to comply??? Well then I'll just take them WHAT?? If I do that you are going to call law inforcement???? I just don't understand your attitude

Seriously, Rascal is right--families are a just a bunch of human beings with claim on your life. If you have more than three family members outside you , spouse and kids--someone is going to be offended about something eventually. Set your boundaries--sounds like you have held this position in your family all of your life--now you want to upset the status quo by asking that they treat you like a fellow adult. Contrary to popular belief, families can embrace a new dynamic- try little bits at a time. Pick one family member who drives you crazy with their demands -pick the thing that drives you the most nuts and gently explain why that action needs to be adjusted. After that sets try the next family member and down the line. Just remember it took years for the current dynamic to become a well honed machine and the reeducation must be approached with patience and love--preferably at a time other than the moment the annoyance occurs