templelady

Definitely the Words of God show us his will. But as for that catchy little Piffle phrase "The word of God is the Will of God" IN order for that to be true in it's intended state you have to believe: Only the Bible in the King James Version rightly divided by VPW and expounded to us through PFAL and other selected books fulfills this criteria. SO do I believe that God shows us his will through his Words? Yes--but I believe that God is a continual and vital presence here and now and his guidance is not confined to a much translated set of documents some which are 2000+ years old

Unconditional acceptance DOES NOT equal Unconditional Approval Unconditional love means that no matter what you do you are always loved-- It does not mean that if you behave badly your actions become acceptable. God always loves us but he doesn't always approve of our behaviors

The issue has never been, at least for me, whether people can change. They can I most certainly have. The issue has always been for me TWI's total and complete unwillingness to admit they ever did anything wrong--and even when caught with their hands in the cookie jar so to speak continue to quote what you just said. How fortunate for you, but then there always have been good people in TWI unfortunately leadership is usually not in that group Of course we are, it was all just a nasty dream, SO if you Leave TWI you automatically leave your friends and fellowshipping with them??? News Alert you can fellowship with friends in more ways than Just over the Bible. If Not going to TWI's HFC means you can't fellowship with your friends then you have just pr oven that TWI is the same as yesterday. If this post sounds harsh -too bad--but as I reread what you have written I become less and less convinced of the sincerity of your post and see more amd more an attempt at justifying TWI

And this foundation was laid by??????????????????

I am confused--do you really believe that Christians don't employ cold rational thought when applying morality and viewing the world??? The two are not mutually exclusive. Rationality does not depart because you are Christian

Love is the manifestation of a concept unconditional acceptance or Love is the short definition of unconditional acceptance

And to further add to the possibilities we assume that they were crucified like this M T JC T M we Assume that all the disciples and Mary were at the same spot WE assume that all the disciples arrived at the same time But what if the actual layout was more like this ........T.................. M ................JC .....M..................... T if you were positioned at the lower left then he would be between the two thieves If the lower right between the two malefactors There are just too many unknown variables to be able to resolve this by figuring our which noun we should be using

If my earlier analysis of the word "with" does not clarity this situation ,but rather add yet another layer there can be still another explanation. Two thieves were crucified with [sun] Jesus as were the two malefactors who were led with [sun] him then yet two others at a later tine with [meta] Him For a grand total of six crucified with Jesus. If It can be asked were there only two or were there four? Then it is not an equally valid question as to whether there were not four but six?? And if six, does that not clear up the multiple nouns as well as the word "with"?? Four crucified with Jesus as teh same time two crucified after.

Being Possessed means that your physical body is taken over by another entity Is It Possible?? Yes Does it Happen?? I'm sure it does BUT-------- 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time it is a word used to a] excuse your own or someone else's bad behavior b] justify intolerance, bigotry and hatred and the manifestations of the same c] a combination of a and b

For Me It's God's love I value because it is a constant unwavering presence in my life that I can feel/sense whenever I "look" There is nothing to compare in human terms, or at least in the Human terms I have experienced on this earth,. All my interactions with "love" vis-a-vis myself and others have been contingent on my being and doing and having what they wanted and needed me to be, do or have. Failure to live up to those expectationshas resulted in immediate cessation of love. Even in my darkest moments I could sense God's presence--I may have not chosen to embrace it because I wanted something else at the moment but it was always there. ONLY God has unconditional undying love for me. As for a means to an end --If you mean do I believe that the faithful will get certain rewards in eternity --yes. But if you are asking if the rewards are why I believe--the answer is no--I believe because of the real and tangible love and His presence I feel now and in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

Okay I went a researching more in depth and this is what i found--a slightly different conclusion in specifics from my previous post in terms of who is who but still in keeping with my original thesis (teach me to talk first research later ) There are two words translated "with" sun and meta Sun συν= plus http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon [Matthew 27:38] Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left [Mark 15 :27] And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. [Luke 23:32] And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. The other word translated "with" is Meta found in the Gospel of John μετά= among between with -> gen after afterwards -> acc http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon </B>[John 19:18] Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. In my view, based on this, Matthew Mark and Like are talking about the same two persons while John speaks of two crucified with Jesus in the sense that they were all on the hill at the same time at some point (crucifixion takes hours) but not with Jesus in the sense of time as being simultaneously crucified, the men in John crucified after Jesus and the men in the first three Gospels.

Mark I see what you are saying. But (knew there had to be one didn't you ) The accounts in the gospels are Christ centered- it is clear that the accounts were preserved by persons whose primary focus on the hill that day was the crucifixion of Christ. If you are recording this event with your Lord and Savior being crucified before your eyes, the weeping of his mother and the grief of your fellow disciples surrounding you, ---when you record what else was going on on that hill --- Is it being recorded as a line by line "news report" or is it being recorded by a person in grief who records what he sees not in the clear logical progression of the dispassionate observer but the emotional upheaval of the grief stricken?? Sometimes I think we forget that the Bible was not written by logical robots but rather passionate people who react in the throes of strong emotion much as we would. If it were you on that hill or me, would we be recording what we saw as history or merely capturing vignettes seen through our grief to encapsulate that moment in time?? I remember many funerals in my life--but I would be hard pressed to remember exactly the sequence of the peripheral events. I, again we are talking the BOOK OF MO here, doubt that the accounts were written at the time- given the time frame with the Passover, the earliest an account could have been written (since writing would be considered work, a violation of Mosaic law) would be 24+ hours hence--would even then the grief be too raw for writing a dispassionate account?? And if the account was written would the crucifixion of the others be seen by the writer as central to the event or merely a backdrop, mentioned in passing to preserve the feeling of the entire scene rather than the complete accuracy of the surrounding events not directly pertaining to Jesus Christ??

Mike, I wanted you to have the opportunity to tell your story, so that I might see clearer your devotion to your cause. So as far as I'm concerned this topic is closed. Now on to the four crucified with Christ-- I have been reading all the posts on this topic--and I must say as always I stand in Awe of the scholarship, depth of understanding, honest inquiry, and exchange of ideas among my fellow posters. Forgive me If the next sounds like either a) I'm dense of B) I didn't pay attention. My position has always been that a living language always has a "shorthand" about it, I think it was Mark who alluded to the use of "Stupid" in English. I think we are drawing too fine a point between who--just as in English we use, criminal, malefactor, thief, bad guy, interchangeably in conversation sometimes even within the same comment --is it realistic to expect that the Greeks were not every bit as fluid in their language? As to the number crucified-and this is pure Mo extrapolation here- This was the day before the Passover - I am sure there were many waiting in jail to be crucified (ie Barabbas) When I envision that day I suspect that the Romans were busy all day with prisoners being crucified knowing that they were "working against the clock", since they could not risk the Jews wrath by doing crucifixations the nexr day. We know from history that Rome crucified many at the same time to drive home the message of her dominion and power, and what better day than the day before the holiest of days, Passover, to send that message to the masses of less than cooperative Jews.. So if, as I suspect crucifixions had already taken place in the earlier part of the day, is it possible that When Jesus arrived at Golgotha the two malefactors were already there and crucified, then they crucified the two thieves who must have been directly behind Jesus on the road leading there. This would account for much there would have indeed been five on that hill at the same time-- but is it not possible that the two malefactors were still alive but already on their crucifixes when Jesus arrived???

I have reached the point in my life where I can Ask God not to hold their transgressions against them. Christ on the cross said "Father forgive them they no not what they do" He never looked at the priests and Romans and the part of the crowd who cheered them on and said "I forgive you" I can ask they be spared the wrath of God in the life to come, I can ask that the sin not be held to their account , but as for forgetting, or somehow turning myself into a pretzel and convincing myself that their sin was really mine--not a chance--have enough of my own actual sins without shouldering theirs

Mike, It was an honest straightforward question--that I really wanted an answer to-- You see I've had those experiences I know others who have had them. A woman of my acquaintance remembers as a child, here in Alaska, that her father was among a group of rescuers in a small boat harbor who pulled several people out of the frigid water after an explosion the waters here are so cold that with out that immediate intervention the people would have died from hypothermia. Years later , now married, her fourth child was born with severe birthdefects. The laws in Alaska at that time did not provide medical assistance in the home for a disabled child. The child had to either be in Foster care or the family had to impoverish themselves to care for them before assistance would be granted. She and a group of other mothers set out to change the laws, to get a waiver system in place modeled after the system in California. After much work and effort and lobbying and garnering support, she went to Juneau to speak with the head of the finance committee a very politically powerful man and extremely fiscally conservative. He listened to her position and said "I understand what you want, and I can see the need, but If a agree to this bill, the opposition will attach other items to it in order to force them through, therefore I am sorry Mrs "Williams" But I can't help you. Discouraged she got ready to go home, her father flew to Juneau to make the return trip with her. As they were walking out of the building the Head of the Finance committee was walking toward them. He stopped and walked over to them. He looked at my friend, nodded his head and then looked at her father and said " "Ben", That water was really cold". The bill became law here is Alaska. That is the kind of divine stepping stones I am referring to--Many would call it coincidence I see the hand of God. That is what I was Asking you Think on this "For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and love and a sound mind" Straight form PFAL Your paranoia speaks volumes

SHHHHHHH Pat hasn't "discovered" Alaska yet

Mike you do me a disservice when you suppose that I do not understand that God in his infinite wisdom can "engineer' if you will, a series of events so that at the proper time and place a needful thing will come to pass--I believe this most heartily as I am sure some other posters here do also. What My question was--Which you sill haven't answered BTW, Is what makes you believe you were part of such a setup and how did this "setup" come about???. What were the steps involved??, when did they happen???, how did you know they were of God??? I can look at my life and see specific times where certain events occurred, which at the time made no sense, while simultaneously events were occurring in others lives that made us all present at a certain time and place because it was necessary we all be there. This is not an abstract feeling --when God calls us to a calling we can look back and see the stepping stones in our lives that led to the place and time of the calling. I do not sense this in your life, I may be wrong, instead I see someone who took upon himself the calling and then extrapolated that since he had assumed the calling that is what God wanted the two are not the same thing. I merely ask for the stepping stones you experienced tro validate that you were indeed called by GOd

I have been contemplating--really trying to see the situation from a not believing or not proven stance. I have to admit I can't get there --so I tried looking at the big picture another way and this is what I came up with I hope it makes as much sense on"paper" as it did in my head Form follows function is a basic tenet of both the natural and man made world. So in the natural world things are what they are and behave as they do because it enables them to fulfill their function. So the question is--- If there is no God why does the Universe exist??? Why did "something" come from "nothing"? "Nothing" has no "function" and if "nothing" is all there is or ever was why did "nothing" have to become "something"?

It entails getting sidetracked with interesting theories and conclusions to the exclusion of what was really important about the goings on on that hill. I'm not saying we should discuss the subject--what I am saying is that discussions like this in TWI , were IMO, often used to avoid the more critical points of the text--such as Jesus Christ being a alive and present in our lives.

Sorry, bad day I guess what confuses me still is why you are still trying if you believe there is nothing there. ??? Iif you believe that something is there maybe you need to try less and relax and let God do the work. I know that seems simplistic--but what I see is a never ending round of, Prayer, reading , agonizing, and frustration. It's not like that--it is a peace- a feeling that no matter what your back is covered. Stop battering at the gates of heaven as it were--I think the door is already open it's just that YOU are so busy doing that God hasn't had a chance to get a word in edgewise. This is not a put down--been there myself many times. You just have to let go and one day you'll be pottering around and go "Gee I wish..."and lo and behold it will happen. By letting go you can't say "okay GOD I'm letting go now but If nothing has happened by Thursday...." letting go means letting go I hope this helps I really do--I I hope it doesn't come across as condescending because that really isn't my intent

To understand the story of Ananias and Sapphira you have to go back to the end of Acts 4 [32] And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. [33] And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. [34] Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, [35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. [36] And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, [37] Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet Ananias wanting to look big in the eyes of the Church bragged he was selling the land and giving it all to the community of believers--knowing as he spoke that is was a lie. So there are a whole lot of dynamics going on besides lying and we don't know what kind of a promise he made--was it a binding oath?--did he swear by the horns of the altar? we don't know. But since Peter says they "tempted the Spirit of the Lord" I think it is safe to assume that this was a whole lot more than your garden variety lie. As to Born Again --Sharon lives by the Law --He is Jewish one of God's chosen people--I would not dare to presume to even try to comment on his spiritual state vis-a-vis God.

1) you "saw" the position was vacant ( no one else in the whole world, huh?) 2) You volunteered. ( which makes it true you weren't appointed.) And if not appointed , by what authority do you assume the mantle ?? By your own admission not by God's or man's authority.. And if you lack any authority from God you most certainly are the last person I would be listening to. And for those who still support PFAL, If you lack any authority from VPW, or LCM or Bullinger or any of the other scholars whose works are included in that program you lack the authority to speak for them too. You see you can't have it both ways If you claim VPW has to be listened too because God gave him the authority--They by your admission of not having been given authority but deciding to usurp it you admit that you are not to be listened too

SInce the assertion of this thread is "Assume there is no GOd' I would say that that places the burden of proof squarely in the non believing camp

Sometimes when I read these "articles" from TWI I feel like I am back in English class in Junior High (middle school) You know the one where you were told to have a thousand word speech on a given topic by tomorrow. Home you went and you cobbled together whatever you could remember on said subject, threw in some fancy grammatical footwork and then got on the the Math homework. The next day you stood up --delivered the speech as quickly as possible waited for the forced applause of your classmates and breathed a sigh of relief. I mean do these people actually READ what they are saying?????

And we should be more open minded that you and entertain your assumptions because??? IF FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUEMENT ONLY I were to entertain all you say about PFAL and VPW the next question becomes-- Just who exactly appointed you Judge, Jury and Lord High Executioner???