templelady

In find it offensive and in many ways IMO doctrinally unsound (it rains on the just and unjust alike) But What I see in the big picture is a man whose methodology for coping with his disease is to decide it is a "gift" from God rather than deal with the fact that even though he has led a Christian life, he still is just as sick as the sinner on the street

PT Barnum "There's a sucker born every minute"

Okay so when are our guitarists going to record some riffs and hook the links to the cafe so we can enjoy what all these machines and owners do??

WD So why are all your Accounts second or third person?? Do you not have any first person accounts of the good Branch, Limb or HQ leadership did for you on a one to one basis.?? My abuse stories are first person, as are almost all of the other abuse stories, of what ever kind. that have been posted. Yet when you ask the Weirwillite camp for first person stories of the good said leadership did in their lives on a one to one basis 99% of what you get is a second or third hand account of what happened to someone else-- Why is that??? And the even bigger question is --if you have no first person accounts of what good leadership did in your life Why are you still defending them???

You called me MAUREEN---ARRGGHH I'm in trouble now !!!! :( That is the sixty four Million dollar problem dMiller There is no scripture that flat comes out and says Jesus gave up his divinity The Catholic and other trinitarian doctrines teach that he never surrendered his divinity Even many Christians who profess to be anti-trinitarin still hold that Christ retained at least some of his divine nature What we do have a snippets here and there James 1:13 ....for God cannot be tempted with evil.... Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him being one But the most compelling is Christ's commandment to us in Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. And Paul in Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? If it is necessary to have a divine nature to fulfill a sinless life then we will all fail. In point of fact most churches teach exactly that, "there was only one perfect man etc. If in fact Jesus Christ never surrendered his divinity that makes them correct My position is that Christ came to earth just like us and lived a perfect life by exercising his freedom of choice to always make decisions pleasing to God. So What did he have to work with: Well lets stick to the Ten Commandments Thou shalt have no other gods before me. There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Thou shalt not kill There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Thou shalt not commit adultery There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Thou shalt not steal There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his foot, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's There are people on earth manage to do this all their lives--so this is attainable So if they are all attainable--how can we, as Christians, keep maintaining the fallacy that somehow or another they aren't??? That is why Christ came to earth -- To redeem us from our sins when we fail,. but more importantly to show us that it was possible for humans to live a perfect life--he could only do this is he was a fully human as we are-- living perfectly subject to all our temptations (a point which VPW did expound on in btw) without the buffer zone of Divinity. There is a Huge difference between choosing not to sin--and being prevented from sinning by a divine nature. I submit, that if we were embrace the fact that a sinless life was attainable instead of the opposite that it is not, we would see a dramatic improvement in our society as a whole And If Christ was truly human then he died like we do, trusting that Heavenly Father would keep his promise, but suffering the pain and anguish of feeling his body died and the Spirit of God within depart "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" There is no way that as a human he could know the anguish that moment would bring before he actually experienced it

Really and how do you know they wouldn't be alive if VPW weren't in the picture? How did he Keep them alive? We are talking personal actions here What I got was a commercial for PFAL I got some good things from PFAL But I don't remember any good coming from Limb, branch, and HQ on a one to one basis in my life --which is what I post about here So I'm asking fro those of you who did have good from Limb, Branch, and HQ on a one to one basis to come forward-- of course I've been asking that for some time and it always seems to me to end up as a commercial for PFAL Sigh

That sums up most TWI supporters response to anything they don;t have an answer to or perhaps it would be better to say anything they don't have an answer to that will support their position

Coolchef On another thread Raf invited me for a up of Coffe at the cafe after we disagreed on a doctrinal point This was my response From there we went to Allen W How we got from strawberry lemonade to sins and forgiveness I leave to other wiser heads

Things I learned in PFAL that were of great help to me I learned after VPW drew a whole bunch of X"s on a board to represent my sins--that even if I forgot some, Christ still paid the price for each and everyone of them and Heavenly Father forgave them all, lack of memory not withstanding. I learned about the importance of context in understanding the Bible, coming from a background of sporadic recitation of a few key verses as being considered "quoting scripture", this has stood me in good stead over the years

If a recitation of VPW, LCM and RR's good points is not worth your time, as a supporter, to post Why would you think it was worth anyone else's time to consider??? on that note I think I will go check out WWs new thread Ciao

Understood But for me it is relevant Relevant especially when I consider that half of Christ's DNA was Heavenly Fathers Relevant when Christ was the Sacrificial Lamb (in the Old Testament a goat could be used also hence scapegoat) Relevant when I consider Christ gave up all claims to divinity when he came to this earth Relevant for establishing whether or not Christ literally died trusting that Heavenly Father would resurrect Him Or did he retain enough of the divine spirit that life was never truly totally extinguished The answer IMO makes a tremendous difference in understanding just how great Christ's sacrifice was for us

Jesus knew he would be resurrected But there is a difference between Dying in the sense that God's Spirit leaves your body like the rest of life does. And dying in the sense, that many posters here believe, where God's Spirit never completely left(forsook) him. If the Spirit doesn't leave then the body isn't dead in the sense that all other life experiences it.

OK please tell me about the good VPW did Or LCM Tell me about their acts that were good I'm listening, I really am SO tell me what acts did VPW LCM or the BOT do that were "Good" that brought "Good" to TWI as agroup or to a follower. Tell me what you saw or witnessed that they did

.What makes anti-Wierwillites the angriest??? TO have our experiences --What happened to us, whether it be destroyed marriages, sexual abuse, loss of family, loss of a chance at a higher education--the reasons are as varied as the people here Be ignored TO have our valid arguments against the behavior of the WAY as exemplified by its leadership - reduced to an argument about the validity of VPW teachings, or worse yet to be described as "foolishness" or "illusion" or "lies" Those who would do such don't get the big picture-- THESE PEOPLE WERE OUR SPRITUAL LEADERS Spiritual leaders are there, to expound the truths of the gospel, comfort, to support, to advise, to love, to gently guide, and correct. Not only did they betray us with their lies, deceptions and evil acts THEY BETRAYED THEIR CALLING OF TEACHER. They, through their acts, not only shattered personal lives THEY shattered spiritual lives. I think of the posters here, who no longer believe in God at all, who no longer attend any church, or in a spiritual morass. This is the great sin of TWI that by doing evil they destroyed the relationships of followers to God

Perhaps the context is bigger--if no response or an unpleasent response produces feelings of "neglect" maybe the problem isn't the cafe per se but the lack of a real life support system

Sounds like a free maid serivce to me

Hence the new revise dclasses, the current word etc, change the calss from PFAL to WOPA and that old deal for POFAL grads is null and void

Never having learned to leave well enough alone---------- I That must be why Allen W aka Allen, pond aka MJ, White Dove and others are on the defensive when their position doesn't meet with approval, right??? <_< That must be why Allen, expends great amounts of energy attacking me for being LDS and Pond when still MJ, and posing as a social worker, falsely accused me of knnowingly being the ex wife of a convicted sex offender and permitting him to molest my children all the while knowing it was going on, Right??? NEWS ALERT: the pain of the Wierwillite faction SCREAMS from every post they, make, for every word they type, their anguish spilling over willy-nilly onto the tables and floors at the cafe. One sometimes is forced to wonder how one person can contain all, the hurt, anger, rage, fear, and hatred some of them evince

Actually I'm not sure it is a relevant question in LDS theology It is, however, a relevant question for me Either Jesus Christ did what he said--and that including dying just like every other living thing on earth dies--and was resurrected by Heavenly Father Or, it was a hoax and Jesus knew from the outset that he really wasn't going to DIE die I suppose that becomes a bit more blurry if you hold to the belief system that Heavenly Father and Jesus are one and the same, then GOD dying would be impossible because if God REALLY died then who would resurrect HIM??? (my head aches just writing that sentence) If you aren't Trinitarian I suppose It is hard because it brings Jesus to our level--which IMO is exactly what He did--but as a whole we seem to have trouble really believing that--hence again IMO all the excuses we make for blowing it "there was only one perfect man" etc while ignoring "be ye perfect as Christ was perfect" As for the cup of coffee, I'll have to pass but i would be more than happy to sit at the cafe and have a strawberry lemonade and inhale the fumes from your cup (of all the things I miss , a steaming cup of coffee with cream and sugar first thing on a winter morn has got to be the hardest on some days)

So you are saying that at death God's Spirit did not leave Jesus and he did not feel it leaving/forsaking him? So how, if God's Spirit never left did he die???

ARRRGHHHHHHHHHHH (primal scream therapy ) There is difference between God turning his back on Jesus which we and Jesus knew would never happen And God's Spirit Leaving--Forsaking -his physical body They are apples and oranges Two entirely different things Jesus was talking about the trees if you will--The spirit leaving his physical body as opposed to the forest --He being God's only begotten For some reason, we choose to think that Jesus was above the reality of what it is to experience intense physical pain. We have a Jesus who was emotional and physically at the end of his bodies strength In excruciating pain, dying, MORTAL, and we are asked to believe that he was pondering the esoteric in his situation--NOT The problem . I believe , stems at the core of whether you believe that 1) Jesus and Heavenly Father are one and the same or 2) that you believe that Jesus was still God while on earth--He wasn't he was mortal He surrendered his divinity -and became as we are. There would have been no purpose otherwise-TO live a perfect life while still being divine goes without saying--to live a perfect life while being not-divine, as we are and exhorted to do, is another thing entirely. Christ on the Cross was human , as we are, and he responded as a human to the physical realities of dying

Or to put it in another light THere was one thing VPW taught that actually made sense And that was that Christ experienced every temptation we have as well as evrey trial involved in being human-- That being the case He had to experience what it feels like not to have the Spirit of God in your life

No one ever said GOD forsook Jesus We are talking Christ's perspective here He was dying He had never experienced Dying He had Always had God's Spirit with Him Now God's Spirit was departing Why was Gods Spirit departing?? because he was dying Of course Jesus felt God Forsaking Him Because God's Spirit was-it was leaving the dying Body of Christ. In order to believe this didn't happen you would have to believe that Christ didn't die in the way we die -rather Jesus entered some sort of suspended animation where he was dead but not really dead because God's Spirit never left Him And if that is the case then Jesus didn't break the bonds of death because he never experienced death as the rest of mankind does

There is a fine point of distinction here What Jesus Christ Felt What Heavenly Father did Did Heavenly Father "Forsake" Jesus Christ in terms of turning away form him??? of course not. But in order to die-physically die, your spirit has to leave your body. Bottom line that is it. So when Christ who being divine had ALWAYS had Heavenly Fathers Spirit in him, felt Heavenly Fathers Spirit leave his body-- because it had to in order for physical death to occur --that is when Christ cried out. He truly felt at that moment that he was forsaken, his very essence was going, his communion with Heavenly Father was departing, for the first time in his existence he was totally without a divine spark either his or Heavenly Fathers--what a terrible feeling, and what a challenge for him--the challenge to let it happen rather than call on the angels to save him. Jesus met the challenge, he passed the test, he became our atonement, the magnanimity of THE GIFT he gave still astounds me when ever I think of it

Never heard that the MOG was to be worshipped. Whether some individuals do--I can't answer to that--but this is one malfiescence that I don't feel can be laid at VPW, LCM or RR's doorstep