templelady

I know a group of women--dear friends to me--who meet with several other women once a week and Knit. Every week they go to a different home and they knit and they talk. There are about 10 women in this circle and they never ask anyone else to join. It's understood that these 10 women, who have been doing this for years, view this as a second mini family where they can relax and let their hair down. A ministry is supposed to spread the "Good news" and RECONCILE THE SINNER (think Prodigal son) TWI is a glorified "knitting circle" and the Prodigal Son best forget about ever trying to come home. SO tell me --what is Heavenly Father going to say as he looks at 1) the prodigal sons who wanted to come home but weren't allowed and 2) the Ministry , TWI, who barred the doors--who do you think he is going to be most displeased with????????

In TWI it was THE word THE mog THE teacher THE ministry All to help shore up the stated dogma that TWI was the only one , the only Choice, the only right IN the LDS church we have no paid clergy--In fact no position in the church is paid until you get to the Quorums of Seventy and above. . Everybody has a job or independent source of income. We are all sons and daughters of God with the mandate to spread the restored gospel. As result of this thinking -- the man who is the bishop of my ward this year could be the young men's adviser next year. The man who is the secretary for the Elders Quorum this year could be Bishop next year. The woman who is in charge of making the bulletins this year could be Relief Society President next year. All Callings are viewed as an opportunity to minister. And while some callings carry more responsibility Callings come and go in some cases in a matter of months--no time to get a big head--and you look very foolish to your sisters and brothers if you try to It is a given that we are all to minister wherever there is need within or without the church.

Except we aren't talking about degrees or careers here there are a myriad of reasons for wanting to leave a religious organization, school and career have to be at the bottom of the list. Please do not try to nullify the true issues being discussed her by trying to imply that career and school was the primary reason people wanted out. We are talking about abuse People wanted out because they were being oppressed, because they were being abused, because their wives, sister, daughters were being abused because their children were being threatened. In my case abusive hubby got the TC and branch/Limb coordinator to go with him to OCS and say that I had abuse issues and the children needed to be protected from Me--So for two years there was an court order in in place that said I couldn't take the kids anywhere or be alone with them unless SD --the real abuser- was present . Did I mention that the TC in question was Rich Urquhart??? I mean when your "minister" and your "bishop" are behind your husband--what court is going to take the word of a suspect wife over "men of the cloth" WD what is clear is that you have absolutely no concept of the reality of TWI for thousands of people

Thirteen years of believing the wrong stuff and you look down on the rest of us Where is your compassion?? where is your understanding?? You remind me of a passage from the book "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" {its been a long time since I read it (say 40+ years) so I'm paraphrasing here} The young girl in the story, who lives in a Brooklyn slum, goes to the free clinic where the doctor comments on how dirty she was--the nurse, who grew up in the same slums--instead of saying something to make the child feel better looks the other way. The young girl makes a comment to the reader along the lines of --- that there are two kinds of people in the world-- Those who never forget where they came from and those who want everybody else to forget where they came from. I took that lesson to heart and have tried never to forget it in my dealings with others. It is a sad thing not to have empathy and compassion about a situation you know nothing about--but to lack the same for a situation that you are all too familiar with having lived it yourself--is disgraceful IMO

HUH??!?!?!?

I think at the end VPW had regrets-I think maybe God did show him things and this time he actually LISTENED. VPW may have very well repented and asked for forgiveness of GOD--I don't know but I'm sure not going to say he didn't because that is between him and God. Personally I think his biggest regret was selecting LCM as his replacement--He lived long enough to see exactly where that was heading -probably in much more detail and clarity than almost anyone else--I think in his heart of hearts he knew that the TWI he had created would be destroyed and there was nothing he could do about it. To know the work of a lifetime was going to be destroyed because you had picked the wrong man--that would have been very hard for VPW

Or to put it another way --if it was this bad under "God's protection" how much worse must it be "out there"??? For those of you who left--more power to you But please stop telling the rest of us--whose shoes you've never seen much less put on, much less walked in-- that this was a decision somehow on par with deciding if you wanted to change jobs. It was much much more with much higher stakes

BikerBabe You said it perfectly and far more eloquently than I ever could Thank You

Now Now Rascal Lets be fair You should be blessed <_< thankful for all the hours and hours of research they did I mean first they had to find all instances where the word Adultery was used in scripture they had to haul out their concordances and examine the root words they had to read everything in context they had to go back to the original Aramaic they had to examine the figures of speech they had to compare the clear vs the unclear they had to see if there was a clearer word than the unclear word they could substitute considering that they were changing a basic tenet of their dogma this was a Herculean effort on their part doncha know and they deserve lots of Attaboys

Only if you wanted your family to die, your family to become ill, God to reject you etc etc etcsaying you could leave is one thing--but when you make the stakes so high through fear then leaving really isn't an option psychologically

I would imagine one takes PFAL, or anything else more than once, To refresh their memory and to catch anything they might have missed the first time or to hear things that are applicable in their life now that weren't before.

Never having been "ordained" I still minister to others, by giving of my time, talents and substance to spread the gospel and love and support my fellow man. That is core to LDS doctrine

A few days ago there was a discussion here at GSC about whether or not there is a "level playing field" here at the cafe. The playing field here may not always be well groomed and level all the time --but at least everyone is allowed on it.

The only thing I feel Sorry about is that I introduced them in the first place--when things went south in Alaska I told them I was gone and why--the families that stayed behind after I left--had no one to blame but themselves-- the scandal was front page news for weeks--noway anyone could pretend they didn't know what was going on.

RAf even though you and I have some radically different viewpoints on several things--I always admire your ability to get to the crux of a matter and state it so succinctly :)

How the GOD of TWI promoted Elitism The study of the Bible and the understanding of it was the goal of TWI. whereas most other Christians regard the studying and knowledge of scripture as a goal and a necessity to better understand how to serve and please GOD, TWI regarded the knowledge and understanding of scripture to be a goal in and of it self thus permitting them to look down on a world not as "in the know" The severance from family and friends who do not agree. While Christianity has as a tenet that a Christian should hold to their faith even when family and friends around them do not share it, TWI promoted that those who do not share the faith are to be shunned. This relieved TWI of the responsibility of caring for and loving those not "in" The Importance of the "I" While most Christians are led by their faith to acts of charity toward those not of their group or social structure as directed by scripture --TWI emphasised The "I" leading to a "me against them" mentality which 1) precluded Charity to anyone not in the group and 2) precluding charity to the less fortunate in the group by declaring their misfortune was due to sin on their part ie "lacking meekness' "openig the spritual trapdoor" etc. At first glance it might seem that TWI promoted "Group think" but on closer examination the "group think" promoted was the concept that" "I" am always right as long as I study the word and follow leadership and since "I" am always right, whatever "I" do is, therefore, also always right." What you ended up with is an organization whose soul focus was on making themselves look good, usually at the expense of others, while all the while proclaiming that the image projected was 1) the truth and 2) said "truth" meant that they were more entitled to what they wanted and the cavalier treatment of their fellow man to obtain it -than the rest of us mortals would ever be

You know what was with that Allen,-- please don't play dumb Nope Me and several thousand others --I find myself in good company

Allen, Allen, Allen, 1) There is no such thing as "Mormon Heaven" there is the Celestial kingdom , the highest degree of heaven where all LDS would like to be--doesn 't mean a guarantee just because you are LDS though that you'll be there 2)Since none of us on the earth get to decide who gets to be where in Heaven--not being Heavenly Father, There is no way two missionaries can predict where you'll be that's not their job. 3) if you were to say that they believe and shared with you that they believe the LDS church would enable you to learn how to live so as to be in the Celestial Kingdom and that there you would be with your family--that I believe--but please don't declare that what you extrapolate from this, is the same as them having actually said that you have to be LDS to be there. The actual criteria is that you keep all covenants with God and remain steadfast to the end. There is nothing in LDS theology that says this IS NOT possible if you aren't LDS --those of us who are LDS just think being LDS makes it easier. LDS believe in grace- what we don't believe is that you can do whatever you want with impunity and expect grace to cover you. That is your belief system but you aren't GOD and neither was VPW --so I'll leave that where is belongs as YOUR and his belief system I said (please note I never said I agree with the points under discussion Then Allen you said And what exactly was the nice Try?? considering we both said the same thing-???? :unsure:

Oldies After years of reading your posts I can only conclude that in your area of TWI it was a utopia compared to the rest of our TWI. And that is wonderful However

The Bible says be ye "Perfect as Christ is perfect" That said the Bible also says "judge not lest ye be judged" SO anyone who has the inclination to pointout how imperfect someone else is doing--clearly isn't working on their own "perfection" and needs to redirect their energies to doing so

Actually almost all of them. They may say at funerals, "now they are with Jesus" they may comfort their children with "mommy's an angel now" But if you actually look at the tenets of the faith--They believe that the dead are dead until Christ returns. Because of the words that are used to comfort many members don't understand this, but it is true nevertheless

From legal perspective TWI settled because as a "minister" LCM would be held accountable for having sex with a member of his congregation in the same manner a college professor would be if it were his student, or a boss with an employee, or a doctor with a patient. The law regards each of these instances as wrong because one party has power over another separate from the sex act. There was no way they could have won on this point in a court of law

Okay--being a glutton for punishment I'll bite Just what was the "judgement" they pronounced??? Did they banish you to outer darkness?? declare you cursed among men?? Declare your souls eternally damned??? If any of the above they were way out of line--- If however they held to the truth of their testimonies and refused to relinquish those testimonies despite your arguments--that, Allen, simply means that they are faithful and steadfast. That is why they are missionaries A facade implies that what they present is lies and they know it is lies But then again that is what you keep accusing me of --so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you would do the same to two young missionaries. I can only pray that the fact it was a face to face encounter may mean that they were spared the venomous rantings that I endure from you on this site. Dove I find nothing that is in your list of things that TWI taught that cannot be found in another denomination. Perhaps they aren't all found in a given denomination but none of them are exclusive to TWI

How to release all that pent up anger {Warning this is a very messy exercise but it works} Find a large area with a wall --the basement if it has a drain on the floor is good. the side of the house is good--the kitchen if you must Move any thing you don't want to have to clean (furniture) out of the area. cover the floor space with newspaper spread it out over the area --out side have the hose ready Depending on how angry you are--hard boil about 1 1/2-3 dozen eggs I mean really hard boil them say 15 minutes on a good rolling boil cool the eggs on each egg write the name of the person/ situation you are angry at now stand back about 10-20 feet picture that person as the egg--that person is the egg hurl said egg at the wall as hard as you can watch the person/egg explode into little itty bitty pieces repeat until 1) your arm is tired 2) the mess is more than you can stand 3) you feel satisfied repeat as needed. Clean in addition to the emotional satisfaction of "exploding" the source of you anger you get a good workout for the cardio system-- the exploded egg bits make a great food source for the birds and squirrels

When you look, at all the reasons, profiles, excuses, theories, etc etc etc in the end it comes down to the cheater being fixated on "I"