templelady

Religion is a set of codified beliefs, It is the responsibility of the followers to uphold the standards And you do this by upholding those standards while living in the real world, not burying your nose in a book and claiming by keeping said nose buried you are Upholding the standards

Of course it is many gifts, VPW is the one who taught it was one Gift ="severally as he will" hence the notion that we could operate all nine all the time --one gift 9 manifestations There are gifts (plural) of healing because healing is of three kinds, physical, spiritual and emotional each taking a different kind of healing. The LDS church teaches that their are nine gifts -given as needed to believers as seen in the following teaching (italics mine) James A. Cullimore, "Gifts of the Spirit," Ensign, Nov. 1974, 27 Among the sure signs of the true church of Christ are the accompanying spiritual gifts. This has always been from the beginning. When the authority of the priesthood has been found on the earth, it is accompanied by the manifestations of spiritual gifts. During the earthly ministry of the Savior, it is recorded that he "went about all Galilee, … healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people." (Matt. 4:23)"And great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all." (Matt. 12:15.) Before the Savior departed from his apostles after his resurrection, "he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:15-18.) "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people. … "Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, … "… and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one." (Acts 5:12, 15-16) The apostle Paul said to the Corinthian saints: "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. … "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit." (1 Cor. 12 1, 1-8)And he stated the many gifts of the Spirit. And unto his church in this dispensation the Savior promised these same gifts. He said: "Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words; and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost. "And these signs shall follow them that believe— "In my name they shall do many wonderful works; "In my name they shall cast out devils; "In my name they shall heal the sick; "In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf; "And the tongue of the dumb shall speak." And so on. (D&C 84: 60-70) I bear my solemn witness that these gifts are with the Church today. The sick are healed, the eyes of the blind are opened, the ears of the deaf are unstopped, the lame are made to walk. The gift of tongues blesses our missionaries and others the world over. The gifts of wisdom and knowledge are evidenced by the leadership of our people everywhere. Devils are cast out, spirits are discerned, the gift of faith is demonstrated on every side. Many mighty miracles give evidence that this is indeed his church, the church of Jesus Christ. All the gifts and powers and blessings that have always identified Christ's church are with the Church today.

I Corinthians 12:7 [7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. the word in Greek is phanerosis which means manifestation same word in 2 Corinthians 4:2 2] But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God And that is the only two places it is found in the NT Romans 8:19 [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. is the word apokalupsis which means uncovering 1st Corinthians 12 [8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will 27] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? [31] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way Gifts is the word charisma meaning grace, favor, kindness What I Believe is that they are gifts, when we use them they are a manifested. Manifested being a verb gifts a nun. Manifestation it the result that all can see IMO by changing them from gifts to manifestations VPW took God out of the equation and put the emphasis on man's efforts and actions.

Let me be sure I understand what you are saying OM, The things in PFAL that were beneficial and true, were on those occasions when VPW actually was "following Christ" When things got distorted, changed etc that was when he chose not to "follow Christ" So IF this is actually what you are saying, would it not be possible, ascertaining how often what was taught was in error, to ascertain how often VPW was "out of fellowship" Just curious what that would show

And in TWI VPW and later LCM controlled the senses realm, they told us what to think and how to think and woe betide the poor person who had the unmitigated audacity to say " in my experience (what ever contradicted the acceptable doctrine of the moment)" Scripture, prayer, listening to that still small voice, and learning from what we experience in the senses realm is what keeps us safe from those who would distort the truth in ANY situation.

Actually I didn't say nearly enough So I'm going to now Master PFAL! master PFAL! like a broken record over and over and over Sorry to give you the news But what we are supposed to be "mastering" is following Christ We master that by living in the real world and upholding the standards of Christian behavior We master that by being honest and forthright in our dealings with others-not engaging in a perpetual game of come-ons and bait-and-switch We do that by studying the scriptures, and praying about them, praying to our Heavenly Father and following that still small voice that answers. As the resident LDS I have taken plenty of flak for my beliefs But at least my beliefs have the foundation of the Bible and the Book of Mormon (which by the way does not contradict a single thing that God teaches in the Bible) and a living Prophet whose words come straight from scripture and can be held up next to scripture with no contradiction, as opposed to the self imposed jail you inhabit. A jail created from the words of a man who violated the most basic tenets of what It means to be Christian, while stealing others thoughts and corrupting the words of the Bible to fit his own twisted agendas. A man whose teachings are so contradictory and riddled with error that you, their self declared spokesperson, are unable to give a clear answer to the most basic of questions because 1) you know that the contradictions are blatant and 2) as been proved time and time again, even a casual reading of the Bible shows glaring of errors in the texts you hold so dear I'll take Garth and George any day of the week -atheists who really want to live righteously are a far step up the ladder from a man so soaked in PFAL, to the exclusion of everything else, that he is unable to formulate a straightforward answer. And while we are on the subject of Atheists 99% of the atheists on these boards became atheists after TWI, after PFAL, After VPW And LCM spewed forth the detritus that was their stock in trade. "better a millstone..."" Yeah Mike it's a real winner you have there

I didn't go to Advance class but I do distinctly remember being told on multiple occasions by leadership and hearing it in classes that we are to operate all nine all the time so while walking to work I should be speaking in tongues in my head, interpreting same, be ready to receive a word of wisdom and knowledge, as well as healing the kid with a scraped knee and raising the guy who just keeled over from heart failure from the dead. In short, If I was really tuned, in I could successfully operate any or all of the nine at a drop of a hat Pretty overwhelming for someone who had to hunt for the car keys! And I really hate that phrase right up there with "do you want to be blessed"

You're welcome Jerry I learned several things in TWI but this has to have had the most practical long term benefit in my life on a physical as well as a spiritual plane

The simple fact is this "Distinction" only exists in your head Doctrine is doctrine whether oral, written, audio tape, VHS or DVD History is History whether oral, written, audio tape, VHS or DVD I Corinthians 12 8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. PFAL is where I remember a big to do about the phrase "Severally as he will" VPW said "severally meant we got all nine" because the words severally wouldn't have been used unless it meant all of them. He belabored the pooint that it didn;t mean jsut two or three either "all nine all the time" was the shorthand for proclaiming this doctrine. To get to this point we just had to ignore 8 "to another" and 1 "to one" in verses 8-10

George, nice to hear from the other side of the fence Have a wonderful week--someday I'm going to get to that bar-be-que and meat you face to face you marvelous old Curmudgeon you! :)

True story I had been out of TWI for about a year and a half. I was on the bus, heading for work, and I was reading a book, Sci-Fi i believe. UP pops this young man I didn't know waving a green card and his Bible, YELLING at me, You should be reading the Bible!! the Word is what you need to be immersed it. There he stood waving the bible in my face-until the driver told him to SIT !, (and it wasn't in a spiritual sense) I was thoroughly shaken by the experience, I looked into that kids eyes and I can't even describe what I saw, fixation??, loss?? fear?? it was a terrible reminder of what TWI was and did

I think the truth is found in PFAL in some cases. IT remains the truth even though VPW taught it. And one is certainly entitled to treasure those nuggets they find. However, I think the point being made here, is that VPW with his Me, me, me personality used those nuggets of truth for his own purposes. HE used them as hooks for the unwary so that he could interject that which was not true or at the very least , a truth which had been compromised with , word changes, figures of speech, literal according to use etc etc etc. This is most subtle and devilish, remember the statement "the trick isn't getting someone to accept the counterfeit as real, its getting them to accept the real as counterfeit. That was the goal of TWI, not to teach any thing really "New" but to undermine the "Old" in such a way that it's injunctions and precepts could be ignored. Hence the plagiarism etc -worked just great for that purpose--since construction of new was not the goal but deconstruction of the old.

I my life I've had experiences with God reaching out in a very personal way. God speaks to his children in that still small, voice in little prayers answered etc. If we listen to those promptings and find that the promptings are leading us in a directions TWI doesn;t like, and we know that the promptings are of God, who do you think will be the loser?? TWI that's who--I know that in my years "in" that small voice had a constant NO NO NO going in my brain on certain issues.

Have absolute agreement with that so the next layer is we accept the new birth, and our sins are forgiven, we have that clean slate and we deliberately continue to commit unrighteous acts by knowingly sinning--are we still righteous or are we a dog returning to its vomit?? 2 Peter 2 20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. Proverbs 26 10] The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors. [11] As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. [12] Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him

WAIT A MINUTE It can't be this simple--I think I might have missed the question or the answer or both When I talk about Redemption and Righteousness you all understand I am talking about three different facets of the issue, right??? When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour he cleanses us from all sins we have committed up to that point When as followers of Jesus Christ, even when trying to do our best we mess up and backslide, or just blow it, when we confess we blew it , ask forgiveness and continue to do our best we are forgiven through Jesus Christ and we don't become unrighteous or loose our claim to righteousness at the judgement . If we knowingly choose to do what is unrighteous knowing it is unrighteous, and claim the fact we "accepted" Jesus Christ means we are still righteous while continuing in the same behavior then we are not righteous and not forgiven I was rereading Belle's earlier posts and it suddenly dawned on me that, very possibly, I had not made clear that I am talking about three separate facets of the issue. Facet one and two are scripturally sound facet three is the one I want to see scripture to refute. It is Facet Three that VPW And LCM and Rich Urquhart and my Ex used as justification, and what some on these boards still use as justification, for what went on in TWI Does this help any,or have I just further muddied the waters???

I noted on the PFAL thread that I am currently reading a book called "Misquoting Jesus" which is about how the scriptures came to be and how they have changed and why. I'm not a literalist That, to me, is irrational for those of your who are literalistic, I think if that brings you peace and comfort, it is a wonderful thing ???? what names????

"Satan's greatest trick isn't convincing us the counterfeit is real, it's convincing us he real is counterfeit" Learned that in TWI it has stood me in good stead over the years Have just started reading ( as in the last 2 hours) the book "Misquoting Jesus The Story Behind Who changed the Bible and Why" by Bart D Ehrman --Chairman of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill I will share any tidbits I find that pertain to this or other discussions. So far It's a good read, clear and understandable to us lay folk without being condescending

That is the point--there is a huge difference in trying to lead a sinless life, messing up, asking forgiveness , and being forgiven And Living any way you please sin or not, doing what ever you want sin or not, and justifying it with a doctrine of "perpetual righteousness" It's the latter that is the problem

(GRAPES) I had to!! I just had too!! But then I agree with those grapes cause Grapes is my favorite :)

I would say that depends on if you are throwing out good because the teacher is bad or if because the teacher is bad you are taking the time to figure out what isn't good Me, I'm in the second camp

Really??? gee that must be why everything I posted I learned in TWI I think the only ambushing going on around here is the people crying ambush to derail the thread

Goey, have some of these bar-b-que short ribs i just brought in and some of these baked beans while you watch the rest of us play okay Belle lets try the contemporary English version (blue is notes by me) Romans 5 1By faith we have been made (past tense) acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God. 2Christ has also introduced us to God's undeserved kindness on which we take our stand. So we are happy, as we look forward to sharing in the glory of God. 3But that's not all! We gladly suffer, because we know that suffering helps us to endure. 4And endurance builds character, which gives us a hope 5 that will never disappoint us. All of this happens because God has given us the Holy Spirit, who fills our hearts with his love. 6Christ died for us at a time when we were (past tense)helpless and sinful. 7No one is really willing to die for an honest person, though someone might be willing to die for a truly good person. 8 But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful (past tense). 9But there is more! Now that God has accepted us because Christ sacrificed his life's blood, we will also be kept safe from God's anger. 10Even when we were God's enemies, he made peace with us, because his Son died for us. Yet something even greater than friendship is ours. Now that we are at peace with God, we will be saved by his Son's life. 11And in addition to everything else, we are happy because God sent our Lord Jesus Christ to make peace with us. 12Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned (past tense), and so everyone must die. 13Sin was in the world before the Law came. But no record of sin was kept, because there was no Law. 14Yet death still had power over all who lived from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. This happened, though not everyone disobeyed a direct command from God, as Adam did. In some ways Adam is like Christ who came later. 15But the gift that God was kind enough to give was very different from Adam's sin. That one sin brought death to many others. Yet in an even greater way, Jesus Christ alone brought God's gift of kindness to many people. 16There is a lot of difference between Adam's sin and God's gift. That one sin led to punishment. But God's gift made it possible for us to be acceptable to him, even though we have sinned (past tense) many times. 17Death ruled like a king because Adam had sinned. But that cannot compare with what Jesus Christ has done. God has been so kind to us, and he has accepted us because of Jesus. And so we will live and rule like kings. 18Everyone was going to be punished because Adam sinned. But because of the good thing that Christ has done, God accepts us and gives us the gift of life. 19Adam disobeyed God and caused many others to be sinners. But Jesus obeyed him and will make many people acceptable to God. 20The Law came, so that the full power of sin could be seen. Yet where sin was powerful, God's kindness was even more powerful. 21Sin ruled by means of death. But God's kindness now rules, and God has accepted us because of Jesus Christ our Lord. This means that we will have eternal life. Romans 6 1What should we say? Should we keep on sinning, so that God's wonderful kindness will show up even better? 2No, we should not! If we are dead to sin, how can we go on sinning? 3Don't you know that all who share in Christ Jesus by being baptized also share in his death? 4When we were baptized, we died and were buried with Christ. We were baptized, so that we would live a new life, as Christ was raised to life by the glory of God the Father THE whole way through this passage, we are talking about 1 The sin of Adam which was in effect until the Law brought by Moses 2 Our sins Before we Accept Christ The only sin in the present tense is the Sin in Romans 6 and we are not to do that because we are now Christ's

Context, it's all about context 1 Peter 4 [15] But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. [16] Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [19] Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator these verses are about suffering for evil deeds as opposed to suffering for standing up for God and Jesus Christ I am now returning to my hammock, doing genealogy on my laptop, and eating rice krispie treats while waiting for that elusive verse to show up

I know Who David Anderson is. I even have his books on ACTS. He does write well. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything he writes Using the argument that a book shouldn't be in the Bible to absolve oneself from either Believing what is written Following what is written Is not a very convincing argument. The fact is, James is in the Bible so lets go from there. Now, I'm still waiting for that verse about perpetual righteousness even when sinning

"for God has not given me the Spirit of Fear, But of Power and Love and a sound mind" "All" is inclusive when it comes to God forgiving the repentant the Bible explains itself in context