templelady

It is all well and good to say I don't know what I'm talking about Okay I don;t know what I'm talking about But how If Judas didn't die by crucifixion how did he fall headfirst onto the ground after being Hung?? Would have to circumvent the laws of gravity to do that That's what I would like an answer to Please

What part of "My conclusion, by no means unchangeable and NOT LDS theology, since I am still working through this whole concept" Is unclear?? Somehow what I proposed as a possibility has been turned into the equivalent of "Templelady believes it to be the gospel truth" You don't like the my theory fine, I understand your reasons But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater OKAY??

It''s not all speculation the Quran that other book of Scripture from the Judeo-Christian perspective clearly states Judas was crucified. I personally can see why that would have been left out from the NT for just the reasons you outlined Judas being crucified makes a lot more sense than Trying to figure out how a person can fall head first to the ground if the rope breaks during a hanging Envisioning someone pounding a stake in the ground then impaling themselves belly first in which case the belly would explode before the head hit the ground As I outlined, Peter's description of Judas' death in Acts--is exactly what would happen if a body fell from a cross Didn't have any authority to preach the gospel from the authorities either, or to start a new church but that didn't slow them down any Yeah, Something like Saul holding coats while Stephen was stoned at his behest. Don't you find it the least bit strange that the Bible, which documents in detail, David, Sodom and Gomorrah, Annias and Saphira, etc etc. Is so completely vague about the Judas' life after he betrayed Christ and his death? I would expect to find a series of verses that dealt with such things as How was Judas received when he returned to the Disciples? What was Christ's reaction when he appeared to the twelve toward Judas? What was Judas' reaction to Christ? Did the Disciples banish Judas from their midst? If not, Why not? exactly when he died exactly where he died A description the death at the time it occurred not vague references after the fact. The absence of the above is so glaring as to be blinding. So the question becomes, why isn't it there? and who had a vested interest in it not being there? My answer is not definitive but it is possible, because as much as many of us have been taught tho elevate the apostles, the reality is they were just men who had the opportunity to know and follow Christ personally and then spread his gospel after His death. They were't suddenly transformed into some glorious beings, they remained as they were, men with passions, and feelings and emotions , and good and bad judgement, sometimes listening to the Spirit and and sometimes not

Beautifully said, thank you

This is all hypothetical Just my take on what Might have happened. Based on the evidence available. Remember the Muslim tradition says Judas was crucified--I don't agree that e was crucified instead of Jesus--but I think there is a kernel of truth there especially with what the Bible says about the manner of his death (as I outlined before) IF Judas was crucified by one of the apostles --my money is on Peter, He was strong, scripture shows He had somewhat of an attitude that "I am right", almost a cockiness, in places, definitely he liked to be in the forefront. There is the possibility that Judas was crucified by other disciples--sometimes we loose sight of the fact that there was a multitude of disciples besides the twelve. Whatever the case, My money still says Peter, if not directly involved, definitely had a hand in it or at the very least knew about it

You could be right Garth But then again that second field-- No record of where or how remote it was. Also I figure the Romans had their hands full controlling the crowds that resulted as a result of hearing Jesus Had risen form the dead, not to mention the reaction of their superiors and the Jewish priesthood. Plus you don't have to hang someone 8 feet off the ground to crucify them-the Romans did that for display purposes. 6 feet would do nicely maybe even lower considering the height of the average man then. And if they did find out--- well that is just one more loose end out of the way isn't it ? a former informer who is not going to stick to the party line and is now one of the ones claiming Jesus is risen. I don't think it would be that hard to conceal. Living in the age we do now it is hard imagine what it means to have no communication except by word of mouth or messenger. Unless someone happened to stumble across the body, doubtful if he was hung on his own private property, It could very well have gone unnoticed

WHEN do you think Peter crucified him? Just curious. Interesting theory. Sometime after Christ's appearance since they were all together then. I doubt at that point that Judas put up much of a fight--Probably felt he had it coming, also I'm not ruling out that Peter had assistance. I

The thing that has always bothered me about the story of Judas - Is that just is so disjointed in so many places. I mean, Its like a bad novel or movie where the author runs out of steam and ties up his loose ends with out any rhyme or reason to the rest of the plot. The following is PURELY BOOK OF "MO" Clearly Judas was the linchpin of the whole crucifixion, without his betrayal the soldiers would not have arrested Jesus soon enough for all the necessary events to have transpired in time for Christ to have been crucified before sundown marking the the start of Passover. We'll start with Peter lopping off the ear of that soldier. Never made much sense I mean why someones ear? But what if, the soldier wasn't Peters target? if I were setting out to arrest someone and had a person with me whose job it was to point the arrestee out to me, that person would be in front with me, so as to point my target out quickly so I still had the element of surprise. So let's picture it, here everyone is, Christ the apostles and Judas next to the soldiers. So I am Peter, and I remember Judas' early exit from dinner, and now here he is with the enemy, and they are arresting Jesus, Doesn't take much mental math to arrive at the logical conclusion. We know Peter was strong and quick to anger. So he takes a sword and he starts a swing at JUDAS, who moves and the arc of the swing slices the ear of the person next to the spot where Judas stood seconds before. Goodbye ear. Which would also give another facet to the healing by Christ not only did It manifest His power, but the soldier in question was an innocent bystander just doing his job. NOW we come to the Field. The only logical explanation IMO is that there were two fields. One purchased by the Priests with the money returned and one belonging to Judas. It is interesting to note that what the priests bought was a potters field. A field where those who died, or were crucified and had no tomb could be buried UINDER THE CONTROL OF THE PRIESTS. I think in their minds everything had "gone south" when they let Jesus' body out of their control, remember how they had asked Rome for soldiers to guard the tomb? With their own cemetery that problem would never arise again --but I digress And A field that Judas purchased with other funds- where those funds came from isn't really important other than it wasn't those 30 pieces of silver Finally we come to the actual death of Judas Judas went out and Hanged himself But did he? Acts1 15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) [16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. [17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. [18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. Hmm here is Peter again Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. Is it possible that Peter was the only one close enough that night to have seen Judas in the shadows with the soldiers? Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity Matthew covers the error of this statement (see markomalleys post) and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out Now this is very interesting If you hang yourself and the weight of the body causes the rope to break you fall feet first --law of gravity BUT If you are crucified, and the body is left hanging (as was the case in crucifixion. Bodies were left for days or weeks, the coming Passover is what made Christ's case unique) gradually the heat beating down, the flies, the decay of the body will cause gases to form and the body to bloat. At some point in time it is entirely possible for the weight of the body to cause the wrists to pull free. When that happens the body pitches forward HEADFIRST, the momentum and weight causing the feet to wrench free, and it hits the ground head down while the impact causes the bloated intestines to explode. That leaves only one question? Who crucified him? personally my money is on Peter. Well that is MY theory

NO NO Of course Jesus was crucified The thread I am speaking about is the thread that suggests that Judas may have also been crucified-whether at his own direction or at the hands of others. Hanging as we think of hanging just wasn't that popular a way to die in those days, slitting your wrists in a tub of hot water, poison, were both common and readily available. Hanging IMO only makes sense if it is hanging as in crucified. And If that is right it brings up a whole new set of possibilities because crucifying yourself just isn't that easy, not totally impossible but not easy.

Pizza is a round of dough slathered with toppings baked until the crust is done and the toppings hot. Everything else is a matter of personal preference the perfect portable food

11:17 pm Just for curiosities sake I typed in "Judas crucified" on Google and discovered the Islamic Quran teaches that Judas Iscariot was crucified in the place of Jesus so that when Jesus reappeared, his followers could claim he had "risen. I fully realize that this teaching of the Quran is to counteract the belief that Jesus was who Christians believe he was --but there is a thread here Faint, sometimes vanishing, sometimes obscured, but a definite thread

Not Possibleeither he gave the silver back in which case he could not have bought a field with it Or he bought a field with it in which case he couldn't give it back When it says hanged himself does it mean Hanging by the neck or did he crucify himself??? (this is strictly MO pondering aloud here) Did he chain or tie himself to a makeshift cross so he could die the death he felt he had sentanced Jesus to?? Was the field remote enough from human habitation or covered in trees or rock formations so that no one noticed his body there until it began to rot and the resulting distension of the abdomen from the gases of decay caused the gut to exploded when his body fell from his makeshift cross or when someone tried to remove it??

From the following site I find http://mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/jerusalem.html I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the same night when he was betrayed took bread." - Corinthians 11:23 "That is all the Christian Church had in writing about the betrayal until the seventh decade." - John Shelby Spong, Liberating the Gospels, p. 260 And farther on According to Luke, Jesus later spoke the following words at the Last Supper, presumably with Judas still present: "You are those who have stood by me in my trials. And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."" - Luke 22:28-30 (Matthew 19:28) "In this saying the author appears to reflect a tradition that knew no definition and no act of treachery. That is, this text reflects a time before the Judas legend arose. The story told in the Book of Acts (1:15-16) of one being chosen to take the place of Judas was a much later tradition, not written until the last years of the ninth decade at the earliest and probably as late as the tenth decade, as was clearly designed to address this apparent weakness." - John Shelby Spong, Liberating the Gospels, p. 275 Paul also appears to have no knowledge of the Judas tradition. Referring to the disciples who later witnessed the resurrected Jesus, Paul calls them the "Twelve" (1 Corinthians 15:6 I personally have always had several questions Why didn't Christ just turn himself in? Why would the Pharisees and Sanhedrin need someone to point Jesus out to them?It's not like they didn't know who he was, surely they could have found one or two men to go with that arresting party who knew him. Why would the Apostles have allowed Judas back in the Group? Clearly they did, and just as clearly they knew it was Judas who did the betraying since Judas arrived at Gethsemane with the arresting party! My conclusion, by no means unchangeable and NOT LDS theology, since I am still working through this whole concept--- Is that Jesus, who went to Gethsemane where he took the sins of the world on him at that time and so great was his anguish from this that he sweat blood (LDS theology) needed to have his arrest come at the precise time that he took on those sins, the anguish and pain being so intense that it was a physical necessity that he be arrested, judged and crucified with in a very short space of time thereafter. Because of this, It was necessary that someone make sure that the time line was implemented at a precise point in time, This would required another party to Act since Christ was otherwise occupied. The story of the "betrayal" has always confused me- because there is too much contradiction regarding the actions of the other apostles toward Judas

I had experienced the real thing years before. So when the TWI version came along--It just didn't measure up in any way. My big thing was making it as short as possible with as broad a focus as possible. You know "My children, God loves you , Hold fast to the Word and all will be well" I had several stock ones I'd memorized just in case I was called on is SIT -yeah was it real for me in TWI -not hardly Did I fake it in TWI -sure did

NOt realy becuase when you get your tickets thay have a sheet with the times that were winning over the years. You can narrow the window down pretty well according to date and time A lot of people keep records of the type of winter each year too so they can further narrow their guess down.

Pizza one of the staple foods of Alaska Always room for another Pizza parlor

For the same reason that a soldier who has been in combat, who by following his superiors lawful orders caused much death and destruction, may commit suicide after returning stateside after pondering what he saw and did. It happens with Police, all too often, where what they have seen and done causes them to end it. Intellectual understanding of the necessity of a thing does not equal emotional acceptance of a thing, hence the confusion and pain of the psyche. Often that pain becomes so overwhelming that the only release from the pain in the perception of the person is death

So quit hogging all that nice weather and ship some north

It's not caviler at all, Believing that , 1) most human consciousness is illusion and 2) the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture explains to me a great deal about what you post re PFAL and why you post it. Object all you want, but you are the one who made the initial post. and clearly believe at least part of it I am only going to respond to what you post. If you want me to analyse more that that you are out of luck. The more you post the more I have to analyse, if you leave things out then, it isn't my job to figure out what you omitted See above, you want me to consider those scriptures you are referring to, post them otherwise I'm not going to worry about would be, could be, might be, should be. What you posted required only about ten minutes of contemplation, I contemplated what you posted. If you wanted me to contemplate more you should have posted more. Think of it as a a television court show Judge Judy: Based on your testimony Mike, I would have to say that this explains a great deal of your thought processes to me Mike: but you didn't consider my thirtyfive years of study, you didn"t ask what scriptures I was referring to Judge Judy: Did you bring that documentation to court, do you have anything furthur to submit that would explain you positions? Mike: no Judge Judy: well I can't consider it then, you knew you were coming to court today you should have been prepared. There is no mocking involved MIKE, I got a much clearer picture of how you think from what you posted. and your subsequent posts including the one I am quoting. If you failed to present, all your evidence or present it accurately--That's on you

Just maybe, the reason people think the KJV is "hard to understand" that the Bible itself , no matter he translation, is "hard to understand" is because they have been told all their lives that it is "hard to understand" And the people doing the telling, namely the clergy in all its various forms, have a vested interest in keeping that idea in the forefront of people minds, . Because if the key concepts are understandable --why then anyone, who has read scripture and listened to The Spirit can teach. If we had all understood that we could grasp God's plan for us in its basic form from reading on our own, then gee, we wouldn't have needed PFAL and VPW would we? Or a good number of other "esoteric disciplines" revealed only to the elect few. years ago I went to play pool with a male friend. I did a draw shot that was about 2/3's the length of the table. Male says: what was that? Me: a draw shot Male: you can't do a draw shot that far Me: I guess it's a good thing I learned how to do it before I knew it was impossible Fear of not understanding is what keeps great number of people from understanding

The Word is never lost, it may be ignored but it is always there because God will make sure of it. This site can't make it go away, nor is this site here for that purpose, this site is to aide in making the erroneous word of VPW go away

rather intense aren't they??? Yaupon \Yau"pon\, n. (Bot.) A shrub (Ilex Cassine) of the Holly family, native from Virginia to Florida. The smooth elliptical leaves are used as a substitute for tea, and were formerly used in preparing the black drink of the Indians of North Carolina. Called also South-sea tea [Written also yapon, youpon, and yupon.] Seems this treat is reserved for you rebels :)

tiny pastel shapes no hummingbird could have laid bursts of oval sweet Come on guys You can do this get that creative "sap" flowing it's spring!!!!

YES!! YES!! YES!! While it may be enlightening and just plain fun to explore and debate the deeper meanings and nuances of scripture along with the more obscure passages, the reality is that GOD wants all his children to have access to his words. He speaks not only to the intelligentsia but to the high school dropout, he speaks not only to the billionaire in his estate but the third world farmer. He speaks clearly and distinctly so that all his creation will know his will

youpons ?????