templelady

it's coming back I had long ago left THE Trinity behind. But even though I understood THE Trinity to be wrong I never lost the knowledge that there was a trinity. When things got too disjointed in TWI teachings I ended up with severe headaches, happened a lot (happens sometimes on these boards when reading some posters more outlandish ideas). I can only conclude that the Holy Spirit is protecting me. VPW's position on the Holy Spirit is not supported by scripture, he did a complete rewrite, and so was born AOS and "seed boy". And if nothing else could persuade you of the error of this pernicious doctrine, that "production" should NO, I'll take my Holy Spirit, my protector and Comforter, as he is, and I'll worship my Heavenly Father in His Son Jesus Christ's name, a glorious trinity which feels my life, with joy, peace, and purpose.

I just don't know where to start So we are to pray to God that LCM says he is sorry, knowing adultry, coersion and rape are wrong doesn't take insight from GOD, the laws and mores of our society say they are worng Would the apology satisfy you? yes Make you a better person? help ease some of the pain that still lurks in a corner of my heart Make your walk different? probably, things of God, heartfelt repentance being one of them, has a ripple effect Or just satisfy a need for revenge? News falsh, apologies are not a form of revenge for the one wronged, they are the start of healing both for the one wronged and the person who wronged

The question of whether LCM is "broken" because of what he did or "broken" because of what he lost is a valid one IF LCM is sorry for what he did, there would still be tremendous pressure from TWI to keep his mouth shut. TWI HAS HIS CHILDREN and while many of us were put in the same situation thanks to him, it can be no less painful for him as the shoe lands on the other foot. I can see why he wouldn't want to cause them any more pain, and I don't put it past the WayGB to remind him of that little bit of leverage if the subject of apologies came up. On the other hand, Catcup {{{{nice to see you}}} has some really valid points.

Allan I am going to get you your own private fruit bowlApples: trinity (lower case). A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity. Oranges: The Trinity (upper case) In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine While I don't believe in The Trinity, there is definitley a trinity. As I pointed out before, the TWI I was in never said there was no Holy Spirit quite the opposite. The argument was VPW trying to prove that the Holy Spirit of the gifts of the Holy Spirit was holy spirit. He went to great lengths to differentiate between the two-he never said Holy Spirit didn't exist.In fact, in the teaching above where he used the Baptism of Christ to support JCING he made the point that there were three distinct beings. Can't have it both ways, can't have three beings one day and the two beings the next day as you willy nilly try to justify your latest "present truth" Believe as you will, VPWs posiition on this subject is not based on scripture, not by his own rules [one time, two times, three times, clear vs unclear verses, figures of speech etc]much less mine.

Here, I've thrown in some coconut too All through the Epistles Paul again and again points the finger at himself describing what he was, what Christ did, and what Christ continues to do in his life. The Epistles are letter after letter of a man citing his own failings and the wonders of Christ's atonement , and his [Paul's] repentance to explain the dramatic turn around in his life and an example that it will work for others the same way. In order for there to be a comparison between VPW and LCM. we would need to have read or heard something along the following lines. I got out of fellowship with GOD, and I sinned :( by having illicit sexual relations with women, I have repented and will ot repeat my evil behavior. Not one peep along those lines or anywhere close to it. Forget apologizing to specific individuals, VPW and LCM never admitted they did anything wrong in the first place. If as OM claims they might have done it privately, that really dosen't fill the bill does it? Paul's example shows the private I'm sorry isn't enough, there has to be a public acknowledgement also.

That phrase appears exactly one time in the NT. I know VPW made it sound like it was all over the place but it wasn't. the verses in question are Colossians 1: 21-29 -which is actually all one sentence And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. Paul isn't saying Christ lives in you he is saying that because of Christ we are reconciled to GOD so we can stand holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight. In other words what lives in you is the results of the atoning work of Christ. In short VPW used the one time phrase to again negate the Holy Spirit. TO say that picking this isolated phrase, that appears one time, to contradict everything else the NT says about the Holy spirit violates VPW's own teachings on the use of scriptural references [one time, two times, three times ], is merely touching the tip of the iceberg. But after all, he was the MOG so he doesn't have to follow his own rules if he doesn't want to now does he?? To further demonstrate VPW's duplicity, the phrase Filled with the Holy Ghost appears eight times in the New Testament. Including saying that Jesus Christ was filled with the Holy Ghost. So either Jesus Chrsit was filled with God , which is what the trinitarians have been saying all along, or he was filled with a seperate person. That is why we couldn't have the comforter until Christ died, becuase it resided in Him, it was His death that released it for us.

:o ......

Remember when VPW was expounding on the reason that Jesus Christ could not be Heavenly Father? He used the following scripture Matthew 3: 16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. He made the valid argument that Jesus Christ, dripping wet in the River Jordan, and the speaker in heaven (Heavenly Father) could not be one and the same. Well the same goes for the other participant in these verses the Spirit of GOD (Holy Spirit) who took the form of a dove. Either we have GOD speaking , the Holy Spirit descending and Jesus in the river or we have God speaking and descending and in the river. Clearly Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct personality else wise, the whole argument that these verses support the fact that Jesus and God are not one and the same falls flat. if the fact that Jesus and God are in two separate places proves that they are not one and the same, then the fact that God and the Holy Spirit are in two separate places proves they are not one and the same. You can't have it both ways

I remember that in my twig when we were called upon to teach a lesson we were allowed to do as much research as we liked. But I was in before the emphasis was placed on using syllabi's and only TWI materials

When I took PFAL in 1982 VPW said that the word Spirit is to be spelled in lower case when discussing the gifts because there was a difference between holy spirit, and Holy Spirit. This was done to support his interpretation of "the Gifts" He went into some detail about the difference between Holy Spirit and holy spirit stating that in the instance of the gifts it should not have the capital because is not the Holy Spirit. But NEVER was I taught or did anyone in my presence claim that the Holy Spirit was a nebulous it as opposed to a who. The nebulous it was holy spirit I don't know when this teaching came about or if it was something reserved for Advance class grads but I am simply floored

Because God and Jesus Christ are outside of us And the Holy Ghostt is indwelling in us you would end up with "Greetings from God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ and yourself" I am, to be truthful, stunned, It never occurred to me that you and Allan deny the existence of the Comforter as a person Paraclete comes from the Greek word παράκλητος meaning "one who consoles" or "one who intercedes on our behalf", "One who" NOT "something which" JOHN 14:16, 26; 15:26, 16:7 (green is my notes) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter {not comfort but a person called the Comforter}, that he { not "it" but "he", a person} may abide with you for ever; But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. What is it about three or more confirming ??Jesus Christ says, that The Holy Ghost is a HE not an it, not once ,not twice, not three times, but four times. To me that's another sin in a long line that VPW will answer for because blaspheming of the Holy Ghost is the unforgivable sin. By relegated Him from a person to an it VPW has most definitely done that, not to mention the thousands of people that he led astray by this heresy. I'm not angry at any of you, I don't think badly of you for what you believe, but I do have a tremendous sorrow that VPW so corrupted the teachings of Christ that you don't see the Holy Spirit as a living vital person that guides and protects , a constant companion who brings comfrot and joy. No matter what our differences my heart truly bleeds for you. :( because I see this as a tremendous loss for you.

And that is the other thing that bothers me. The way VPW handled the gifts Is was all on the shoulders of the Believer It was our job to manifest we practiced speaking in tongues we practiced interpretation we practiced prophesying we worked at getting all nine all the time Think about it Do you really think that the Holy Ghost needs your help in deciding what you need to say? Do you really think you need to practice getting your tongue and interpretation the same length?? The Holy Ghost is quite capable of giving the appropriate length interpretation for the language you just spoke without any help from you Do you really think think The Holy Ghost needs your assistance in figuring out what he wants you to prophecy? Do you really think the Holy Ghost can't figure out when you need a word of Wisdom or Knowledge without you trying for it?? That is the insidious thing about calling them manifestations instead of gifts. Manifesting is an act on our part if they are manifestation the work is on our part. Sorry, Its not IMO, supposed to work like that they are Gifts and the Holy Ghost, indwelling in you, knows exactly when you need what gift and why and He will supply the correct one at the correct time. If it's Word of Knowledge you need, SIT isn't going to fill the bill. I don't go seeking after manifestations, I rely on the fact that the indwelling Holy Ghost will give me the gifts I need in the correct portions at the correct time, and He has never let me down yet. I haven't needed all the gifts in my life but I have no doubts then if and when I do they'll be there I'm Sorry Allan, but your method is based on your efforts, as long as you see it as manifestations that you have to bring into being the Holy Ghost is bound by that decision. He blesses you with the manifestations you seek when you seek them. But did you ever stop and consider that if you take the burden off your shoulders of manifesting and put it on His shoulders of gift ginving, that you may find yourself ankle deep in more gifts ???

But LCM's version was just the progression of VPW's version. VPW built into TWI the concept of "present truth". That way anything he, or his hand picked successor came up with, could be treated as gospel Its been brought up before on other topics that a lot of what LCM did was codifying in written form practices that started with VPW. It was VPW who equated adultery and sexual promiscuity with a form of healing "Ministering to God's people" he called it. How much more twisted can you get when you justify your sexual peccadilloes with the excuse that is a form of healing. I mean, the gifts of healing are from the Holy Ghost-- Corruptions just the tip of the iceberg

He's so CUTE!!! Congrats and Happy Easter

He Is RISEN!!! Happy Easter to one and All

Apples Tracing your lineage to find out who you are related to and your history -modern day genealogists - OT is filled with examples Oranges Tracing your lineage to prove that because of that lineage you have a superior claim on Gods favor -- Flaw in some followers of Jesus in the NT. Never said theat "apple" geneaolgy is bad just "orange" genealogy

The reality is that the real thing is never as good as the fantasy. Real women don't have that perfect figure, perfect hair, perfect makeup and perfect disposition 24/7. Real women usually aren't going to be able to fulfill every sexual fantasy to begin with, and definitely not as the fantasies get more elaborate. Men are visually stimulated when it comes to sex, as more porn is viewed more stimulation is required. As the real woman or women in their lives fail to measure up to the fantasy they go looking elsewhere. Porn addiction is a lose lose for everyone

Having been given the care of three sets of yellow peep quintuplets. I realized that constant vigilance would have to be exercised to keep them from the hands of surrelious back alley surgeons. I decided that they need to go some where safe. So I thought and came up with the safest place I could find, I slide each of the fifteen separately into a cave and down a steep narrow passage. They now float is a warm pool in a dark cave , forever hid from the evil doers who would maim them

I've said for years both on and off these boards that I think LCM went both ways. It's the only explanation of why a President, who was so Anti-gay publicly, would have helped Richard Urquhart hide his deeds by moving him to other unsuspecting areas, and AFTER Rick's arrest and conviction TWI continued to support and care for him. When The Urquhart's were finely kicked out of the Way Corps it was due to not being active (hard to be active when you are busy running and hiding to stay out of the grasp of the authorities and to avoid having to register as a sex offender)

I have been pondering again, ***GSer's scatter to the four winds finding cover where they can -*** And I think I have finally gotten to the core of What bothers me about the "all nine all the time " doctrine of VPW be you a Trinitarian or not, There are three persons in the Godhead, Heavenly Father Jesus Christ the Holy Ghost Separate but equal Heavenly Father freely gave us the Gift of His son Jesus Christ freely gave us the gift of the Comforter=Holy Ghost The Holy Ghost freely gives us the nine gifts/manifestations Except in VPW world. in VPW world The Holy Ghost does not have the option to not give gifts and therefore, the Holy Ghost lacks freedom of choice. So if the Holy Ghost lacks freedom of choice-he's really not equal to the other two, is he? <_< It just wouldn't do to have an Equal member of the Godhead exercising His freedom of choice (while you have a good bottle of Drambuie, some Kools, and a sweet young thing, in your private wheeled get away) by yelling in your ear NONONONONONONO. I mean we can't have that, can we?. :( So the solution is to make the Holy Ghost less equal, an indwelling cookie dispenser dispensing as WE demand, then it's okay not to listen to Him unless we feel like it, Right?? :unsure: So in other words if we don't manifest more, we don"t hunger for more of the spirit?? Every time I thing I've heard every slam the "haves" can hurl at the "have nots" you find another one

For to one is given by the spirit the word of wisdom to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit to another the working of miracles to another prophecy to another discerning of spirits to another divers kinds of tongues to another the interpretation of tongues but all these worketh that one and the selfsame spirit dividing to every man severally as he will. Okay capitals taken out But it still comes to the same thing these are GIFTS given and the giver decides who gets what when. The recipient of a gift doesn't get to demand what gift the giver gives,. that's why it's called a gift instad of an entitlement And as for it being one gift--sorry that doesn't work either--if it was just one gift it wouldn't be referred to as separate gifts not only here but elsewhere. I guess what I don't understand is why is it so important for you who believe "all nine all the time" to keep insisting that the rest of us are somehow deficient in our relationship to God. Why can't you just rejoice in the fact that you have all nine and let the rest of us rejoice in the ones we have??

That would be a valid observation if it were not for the fact that the most venemous of posters are, not the ones who were wounded by TWI, but the ones who are in the camp of "TWI was great and so was VPW"

a punctuation mark { : } used after a word introducing a series or an example or an explanation a colon is used to connect complete thoughts; a colon emphasizes the second thought [10]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. dmiiller brought up a point -but let's not try and pick and choose which punctuation we like and which we don't -since punctuation was added after the fact, lets take it all out, along with the verse breaks: and we have For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit to another faith by the same Spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit to another the working of miracles to another prophecy to another discerning of spirits to another divers kinds of tongues to another the interpretation of tongues but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit dividing to every man severally as he will. By doing that you end up with exactly what every scholar but VPW agree is the correct translation Lets be clear here I am not saying that all nine don't exist I am not saying that no one received and uses all nine What I am saying is that all "nine all the time" is not an absolute for everyone like VPW tried to make it sound If you received all nine gifts and use them or know others who did and do I am truly happy for them and you But, please please stop holding out the banner that says everyone got all nine and if they don't know that they are stupid , or not really trying, or their believing is off, or any of the other phraseology designed to tell others that we are inferior in our spiritual walk And that what was done in TWI to hundreds of people and that is what is still being done on these boards. It is untrue and hurtful, bringing no peace to the recipients. It shows those who are recipients of all nine to be braggarts, and scorners of their less gifted brethren, which I find an odd stance for persons who claim to have received so much at the hands of the Holy Spirit

King James Version 1 Corinthians 12 8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. VPW taught that "severally as he will" modified "every man" which meant that man decided what gifts he would receive ergo "all nine all the time" He treated ,"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.", as a sentence But it's not a sentence, it is the end of the sentence that starts in Verse 8. Throughout that sentence the personage doing the action is The Spirit therefore the modifier "as he will" applies to the one doing the acting namely The Spirit. New International Version 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. New American Standard Version 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. Amplified Version 8To one is given in and through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] a message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] a word of knowledge and understanding according to the same [Holy] Spirit; 9To another [wonder-working] faith by the same [Holy] Spirit, to another the extraordinary powers of healing by the one Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues. 11All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses. New Living Version 8To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another he gives the gift of special knowledge. 9The Spirit gives special faith to another, and to someone else he gives the power to heal the sick. 10He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and to another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to know whether it is really the Spirit of God or another spirit that is speaking. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, and another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have. Contemporary English Version 8Some of us can speak with wisdom, while others can speak with knowledge, but these gifts come from the same Spirit. 9To others the Spirit has given great faith or the power to heal the sick 10or the power to work mighty miracles. Some of us are prophets, and some of us recognize when God's Spirit is present. Others can speak different kinds of languages, and still others can tell what these languages mean. 11But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us Young's Literal Translation 8for to one through the Spirit hath been given a word of wisdom, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; 9and to another faith in the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healings in the same Spirit; 10and to another in-workings of mighty deeds; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; and to another [divers] kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues: 11and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth Wycliffe New Testement And the word of wisdom is given to one by Spirit [To another forsooth by Spirit the word of wisdom is given]; to another the word of knowing, by the same Spirit; 9 faith to another, in the same Spirit; to another, grace of healings [a], in one Spirit; 10 to another, the working of works of power; to another, prophecy; to another, very knowing of spirits; to another, kinds of languages; to another, expounding of words. [to another, the working of virtues; to another, prophecy; to another, discretion, or very knowing, of spirits; to another, kinds of tongues, or languages; to another, interpreting, or expounding, of words.] 11 And one and the same Spirit worketh all these things [Forsooth all these things one and the same Spirit worketh], parting to each by themselves as he will Clearly VPW based the entire "all nine all the time" theory on his faulty understanding of sentence structure Not one other scholar agrees with his PI of verse 11 Faulty understand=Faulty Doctrine there you go with the apples and oranges again The fact that all nine manifestations are real has never been the issue, the fact that all of us have all of them is

When I was seven I went to my Aunts for two weeks in the summer. I was a city girl and had no knowledge about a working farm Everyone had chores so my Aunt decided I could gather eggs, figuring I couldn't get into too much trouble. She had white leghorns and they saw me coming from a mile away. Monday I was in tears, it took forever to collect those eggs and put them in my metal pail while they pecked and lunged at me Tuesday, While dodging hen #1 the bucket clunked hen #2 upside the head. She reeled woozily on her nest and I quickly gathered the eggs. Then I went down the line of laying boxes clunking chickens as I went My Aunt later saw her chickens reeling like Jackie Gleason doing his drunk impression. So she went out and cleaned the feed troughs Wednesday, having the system down pat, I whipped through those chickens and had those eggs collected in nothing flat. That evening my uncle and aunt cleaned the feed bin to the bottom looking for argot as "drunk" chickens did pirouettes Thursday I and my trusty bucket headed for the hen house --I clunked one and then I heard my aunts voice and a hand not gently on my shoulder. The chickens resumed a normal life, and I sat gingerly for a day