templelady

The Spoken rules are never the important ones Unless they agree with the unspoken rules. In VPW's case the unspoken rules were paramount. 1. As the MOG you are entitled to what ever you want whenever you want how you want. 2. any thing or any person that hinders or prevents the implementation of rule one must be either negated or eliminated. LCM learned well I remember reading a book on Mary Queen of Scots and why Elizabeth I of England finally sentenced her to death even though they were cousins and even though Elizabeth understood that by attacking a crowned ruler she was putting into questions the rights of all rulers of her time. "it is not prudent to permit a non-ruling ruler to survive" As long as said ruler lives, as long as there remain those who are loyal to him/her, the present ruler can expect nothing but turmoil and insurrection --it is just that simple. That's why presidents change cabinet members, CEO change vice presidents, etc etc -just too much undermining and grousing if the die hard loyalists remain especially if the leaving of the prior administration was under protest , duress or questionable.

Since you, George and Vernon make up a majority you should be able to evict TA, except housing is more than just a social matter it is also a legal matter and you can't evict someone from their home for being TA. If you are sharing housing because of cost, maybe you, George and Vernon need to see if you can find a three bedroom in your price range and leave the Prez and TA to their own devices. For that matter maybe knowing that the three of you are serious about going to this level may wake the others up to the repercussions of their actions-since they probably can''t swing the rent etc without the cash from you, George and Vernon

Could it be that many of us have indeed continued on the journey we were called too, freed from the shackles of Piffledom. I, imo, surmise that maintaining that one held to the truth of Piffle will be a very pale excuse before the Goodman of the House when called to account as to why one continued to mistreat people.

two marriagfes two divorces. Am now actively considering trying again if the right one comes along. Too old for having kids--want someone to talk too, go traveling with, LDS, who will really love ME, not who he thinks me is or should be but ME --that last is a tall order.

Unproductive evil Number one clue not getting new people to fellowship and then getting them to take THE CLASS other signs of unproductively, not willing to jump at the slightest suggestion of a request from leadership

I can't find a biblical perspective on "it bothers us more". Can find a lot about doing or not doing, but nothing on the topic of just being bothered more--seems to me that the will to act against the bothersome situation, whether to denounce or try to rectify it, is seriously lacking in these peoples lives.

Years ago I worked in an auto parts store: A lady comes in and say "I need a starter for my truck" so my friend at the counter says "what kind of Truck ?" She doesn't know, doesn't know the year, or the size of the engine. Finally in exasperation she snaps "Well it's blue!!!"" Man comes into the store with a puzzled look on his face. "i need those things that go in the engine, you know the things on the ends of the spark plug wires" .looking at each other Louise finally ventures a word and says "you mean spark plugs???" customer "oh, is that what you call them???" they do indeed walk among us

Long ago for my own healing I asked God to forgive them All-to not hold what was done to me and mine against them. An apology now would be accepted in the sense that I have already forgiven them. It would not mean, however, that I have any desire, to associate with any of the parties, ever. Any apology, coming from either the individuals or the organization would, to my way of thinking, be an acknowledgement on their parts that they were in error, a needful thing for their own spiritual progression and would be viewed by myself in this light.

Fortunately, today that surgery to close the hole is routine and quick--so many babies saved. My mother buried my sister when she died 2 months to the day of her birth from this condition in 1947. Thank God other parents are spared this heartache so often today.

Things us "nasty" LDS do to inactive members Visit or call them every month just to see how they are or if they need any help. Invite them to lunch, dinner, shopping whatever--after all inactive doesn't mean "no longer friends" Help them out with meals, when a family member is sick Help them out with rides when the car is down babysit their kids when they have to work and can't find a sitter You get the idea Funny, I can't ever remember that TWI ever suggesting that this was how we were to treat even "standing" members. Thanks Allan for reminding me why I stick with my "nasty" LDS lifestyle

"you have no friends when it comes to the word" What An effective way to isolate people form each other--and you being in from a child were taught this lesson well. Isolation is the first key component to an abusive relationship. Isolation from other people, their ideas, their feelings" "iron sharpeneth iron" A methodology whereby by your very actions you keep others at Bay (Who wants to be criticized) and thus insure the isolation continues. Thus making you ripe to accept whatever Abuse comes your way. If there ever was a doubt that TWI etal was an abusive organization -this scenario should quell that notion. I feel for you I really do- You've gotten lots of good advice here- the only thing I can add is--Think how you would like to be treated in a situation, say if you had made an error. Would you want someone to point out your mistake adding to your embarrassment? Treating others how you would like to be treated is the big first step. It will take conscientious determination to unlearn the behaviors ingrained since childhood. In every situation you must stop and think be fore yo speak and act what Would make the other person feel better and not be hurtful. The mere fact you have the concerns you have says that you will be able to accomplish this-- best of luck to you

The LDS Church has a totally different belief system about "the Fall" The fall of Adam and Eve was foreseen by Heavenly Father and “was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us” (Gospel Principles, p. 33). We accepted this condition in the spirit world when we supported Heavenly Father’s plan. “Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden” (Gospel Principles, p. 33). After Adan and Eve “fell” from the presence of God and<A name=LPHit65> became mortal, we needed a Savior so we could live again andhttp://""' target="_blank"> return to our Father in Heaven. Jesus Christ was chosen to be our Savior before the world was created..

We live so much of our lives in the "NOW" in this age of telecommunications, space, Internet that we tend to forget how powerful the past is in our lives. Maybe that's why genealogy has become such a large hobby--we need to reconnect with those roots, we all have the questions, the what ifs?, the whys?, that we hold in our hearts hoping that some day some how we will have the answers. So glad you found some of yours.

TWI was like being Tantalus in Greek mythology. Everything you wanted was just out of reach coming almost in your grasp then slipping away only to resurface again before slipping away in an endless cycle

slippery little character isn't he

Yeah , you'll get flamed. Opposing VPW or PFAL has that effect on some people. But I for one like to hear all viewpoints Don't always agree with them but like to hear them

And now a word of caution about "original Source Documents" They are only as good as the information that was given to the recorder. As with the census the recorder may or may not have gotten it right. On the other hand he may have gotten erroneous information. I have a family of GUBTAILS who are really GUPTAILS but the name got put on a property deed with the wrong spelling and it was easier for the family to change the spelling of their name than to prove they were really GUPTAILS and have the deed changed. My grandfather was born in 1878 but we always thought he was born in 1880. Why?because my great grandfather in order to get a break on Life insurance gave his age as two years younger than he really was and so changed my grandfathers birth information to coincide with his deception. Original documents are great but they may be no more reliable than Aunt Minnie's notes in many cases, and in many cases your conscientious Aunt Minnie may be more accurate. Now are you thoroughly ( or is that Throughly) confused???

Some other tidbits I've picked up along the way When searching census on ancestry always check the plus or minus 1 year box. Depending on the actual birth date and the date the census taker shows up there can be a variation in the actual year shown Be aware of like sounding letters--as I type I am taking a break -spent 2 hours looking for John E when in actuality it was John V --E, V, B, C, D, G, P, T, V, Z all have that long E sound so they can be substituted. Ditto other letters If you know where someone was married check the census just previous to the marriage in that locale for the same surname of either the bride or the groom weddings usually took place in the hometown of one or the other. Look for common places between two lines. If you have two families who originated in Hartford CT for example sometimes going back to those surnames and working forward respective lines will connect with the lines you are working backwards on. Most sites Have a wild card feature so if you are unsure of the spelling KEN* will net you any name starting with those letters. Remember any vowel can and will be substituted for any other vowel so mix and match ditto some consonants KENYON can be KINYAN, KINION, KINGAN If your ancestor came from another country try to find out how that name would be correctly pronounced in the native tongue then think of ways an English speaking census taker might transcribe it when he heard it pronounced with the accent of the speaker. PFANMUELLER becomes PONDMILLER

Female relatives ARGGHHH They are so tricky because up until about 60 (WWII) years ago a woman really had no identity outside of her father and her husband. "John's wife Mary" was considered all that was needful in many cases. I searched for a great grandmother for years who was known to all and sundry as Mrs Willliam Loveland, period end of discussion. I found one woman and a whole family, a FOWLER, by finding out that her sister-in-laws grand-mother was a FOWLER who came from the same small town as she did. contacted that rsearcher and voila! Ancestry is great on the way they have their census set up. You can go to the year in question type in a first name and approx birthyear. narrow down by location. and see what you can find. Also they have a magnifying feature that sometimes helps clean up the mud. Genealogy .com has the census too. I find Genalogy.com to be a more shot gun appraoch since they give you a much broader range of possibilities . Ancestry also has city directories (Polk) and the main library in what ever town you are searching should have them too. If you can pull an address off the census for a given year. do a reverse directory lookup on who lived at that address. I found a great grand uncle that way and discovered the first house he lived in in Spokane before he married my great Grand aunt was a mere 7 blocks from where I grew up. Good hunting

The Peacock Bed and Breakfast would indeed be the building at 41 Lincoln Street in Manitou--the Former Pike's Peak Seminary http://www.80829.com/Asp/businessview.asp?NUMBER=253

You'd be LDS Allen My beliefs say that if he didn't repent and convert in this life he will have the chance in the spirit world. And I believe that. (we ARE NOT going to segue into A discussion of LDS beliefs on this thread want to discuss those particulars start a new thread and I'll meet you there.)

I think that God gave us brains he expects us to use. To procreate when there are irreversible genetic factors at play or there is clearly no way that children can be supported by their parents with all the needful things for a child life is just wrong. My faith supports the having of large families as a doctrinal issue but the particulars are left to the individuals involved. I think it is important to remember that most of the birth control "rules" came out of eras that had far more agrarian societies. More children meant more hands to tend the fields, milk the cows, hunt, fish, fix the house the barn, etc. so large families were self supporting in the areas of food and shelter. The society we have today, especially in the industrialized parts of the world, lacks this advantage. Ten kids when you grow all your own food, do your own repairs, make what you need, sew your own clothes, and the doctor takes chickens in payment is far different than 10 kids that have to live in a house with a mortgage , food from the grocery, clothes form the mall, doctors visits at $150.00 a pop. BIrth control is a matter between husband, wife and God. The scriptures are clear about taking care of your own, and not with government subsudies except in cases of emergency and then for the shortest time possible.

Call me crazy but I think the selection was far more pragmatic than that. VPW needed to appoint a successor who, even though said successor knew where all the "skeletons" were buried, had a vested interest in keeping teh skeletons buried since he had far more to lose if they ever came to light than VPW did. LCM was tailor made for the job.

Religion is a system by which man defines his relationship to God. denying God is defining a relationship to God as being non existent because he doesn't exist--so yes atheism is a religion

And please let us not forget the lady of the Big pink hair and Ala Tammy Faye Eyelashes and her sidekick the tall guy with Silver hair and the forest of nose hair in their gold leaf chairs---ARGHHHHHHHH