templelady

Bumping this to the top so those interested in the anti LDS site thread can read more

Ah there is the subtle difference between what the outside world regards as being LDS and what LDS regard as being LDSOutside of the Church people see us as following a group Inside the church we know ourselves as a group developing a relationship with Christ - being a "group" we are there to encourage and support each other on that road I hold the view that they were both created by God the father -as does every other denomination I know of That could be translated into being brothers just as being Joint Heirs with Christ makes Him our brother. The Family is regarded by the Church as the cornerstone of society. As such we value it and promote family relationships that are spiritually and emotionally healthy for all members. So does God and So did Christ while on earth- Following the prophet--This is not TWI , folks President Hinckley does not arise every morning to make pronouncements about, chair stringing, red drapes, or go on rants because someone walks into a meeting late. He does not pelt us with demands that are prefaced with "GOD says you must" . In the entire history of the church there have been 138 revelations from God that have been made doctrine. that's all--What God does do is speak to the prophet just as he did to the prophets of old. to exhort and encourage us to eschew sin and Live righteous lives. For more on what President Hinckley actually says go to the LDS site and do a search on his name or easier yet http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=t...r%3Bfield%3ARef LDS theology does indeed teach that those who attain the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will have there own planets to rule. I find this far more palatable than other denominations view that we will appear before God, be judged and banished into outer darkness or achieve eternal life. In that Eternal life we will not have our loved ones around us except at the judgement, and for all eternity we will sit with our eyes gazing at God and Christ while singing their praises--a sort of Exalted zombie-hood. Science BTW has within the last couple of years discovered that the universe, far from being of Static size, is in fact growing--Wonder Why God needs or wants more Planets?

gee allan it's not like I'm hard to find Pm, email, Sanil mail, phone All right out front for everyone to see

site 4 "And Here quite a sad Story" ( red is discrepansies Blue my comments) http://cephasministry.com/gail_former_mormon.html The Testimony of an ex-Mormonby Gail Clark I was told that, "Joseph Smith the founderwas a prophet and that God had restored Christianity through him!" As a child I never had religion, in the home of my parents were never interested in anything to do with religion. Between the ages of 10-11 I attended Sunday school at a local Anglican Church. I found the church very boring and by the time I was twelve I decided the Church was dead. In my early teens my parents and I moved to Birmingham. During that time I remember feeling that there must be more to life, the neighborhood where I lived was particularly rough and many of my peers were getting involved in drugs, crime, promiscuity, etc.. With at secondary school I undertook a project on child development, on religious faiths and how different religions bring up their children. I lived a few minutes walk away from the Headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ( news alert!! the Headquarters for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is in Salt Lake City Utah) I walked into that office; little did I know how that visit would change my life. Anyway to cut a very long story short I left my name and address there. Two young missionaries knocked on my door one afternoon. I was invited to a series of meetings at my neighbor's house. Before long I was attending Church, the red carpet treatment was laid on, although I would like to point out that the people were genuine. I received my testimony that Joseph Smith the founder was a prophet and that God had restored Christianity through him. I loved the then-Prophet and believed that the LDS Church was the only true religion on the earth. I withdrew from all my gentile (non-Mormon) friends, ( why??, the LDS church does not advocate this) things with my family became difficult and I believed that when they challenged me over the belief system of the church that the devil was using them to pull me out of the church. I was baptized into the Church on my 15th birthday (1988).The Church will not baptize a minor without parental consent-the parents don;t have to join but they do have to consent The people were kind and friendly but I was unaware that I lost the ability to think for myself. I never questioned any of the doctrines of the Church. ( Not thinking for oneself-isn;t the LDS churches fault, Twi''s fault or any one else's fault except the person not thinking) For the first two years I was extremely happy. When I reached eighteen things started to change. I felt uncomfortable with the way that women were treated, men "Lording" their authority over women. Women were expected to be wives and Mothers, which is an important role, but women who went out to work were frowned upon. I can remember the then-prophet Ezra Taft Benson giving a speech about women who had careers and were neglecting their children. ( having a career and having a career that puts your child in a secondary position are apples and oranges-Women are encourage to get college educations, Women are also encouraged to stay at home with their small children-this is not anti career the church simply feels that doing two jobs partially well is not as desirable as doing one job well ) I also started to question in my mind the doctrine of baptism of the dead. Mormons believe that everyone has a second chance of receiving salvation. Mormons spend a fortune on tracing their dead relatives in order to be baptized on their behalf and who can then respond to the message and become a Mormon in the afterlife. When I had these doubts I kept them to myself. The void I felt in my life, as a young child still had not been filled; I tried to work harder at being religious had not realized that being totally legalistic was not what God required of us. ( then she was not paying attention to the message of the LDS church) The end of the road for my membership finally came about through a work colleague who was educated in Mormonism and was also a born again Christian. He went about telling me about the flaws in Mormonism. He told me that to be a Mormon I had to be a racist, as Mormonism believes that black people are inferior to whites, ( and again with this old tale amazing that she didn't know this nor had never heard it if it was such a pervasive part of Being LDS) ) until 1978 they were not allowed to hold the Priesthood. I asked my stake president about this. (The Mormon Church is divided up into stakes in a region this would be the equivalent of an Anglican Diocese and then the state would be divided up into wards which is the equivalent of a parish. The stake President is the equivalent of an Anglican bishop and the bishop is the equivalent of the local vicar). If this was true I expected him to deny it, but he said that it was true that the Church had taught this doctrine. I was completely shocked. I finally decided to leave after watching a television documentary, about Mormonism. The program highlighted that Mormonism was not of God, that the Book of Mormon was a fraud, that the Temple ceremonies are occultic and the Joseph Smith was a liar, an adulterer and basically was a false prophet. The program also highlighted the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the polygamy that had gone on. ( Events of over 100 years ago- again hardly news or forbidden topics ) I always believed up until that point that polygamy was only practiced as a social security arrangement. After watching the program I phoned my Bishop and told him to remove my name from membership. My request was denied. I had to threaten the Church with legal action, to have my name removed. The request has to be in writing it is a routine request and easily handles ) They visited me for some time to try to persuade me to return. They eventually stopped visiting when I moved to another house. (I did not move for that purpose.) Although I had left the Church and had no intention of returning, I believed that all other churches were in total error. I tried to attend several churches and also studied other cult religions (i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses, Hare Krishna, Islam, Spiritualism and Unitarians), but these held no interest to me. Something would prevent me from going any further. For four years I had no affiliation with any religion I often refer to this as my wilderness stage. I was aware that I still had a great void in my life that needed to be filled, but I was unaware of how to fill it. I tried everything: an unsuccessful marriage, lots of failed relationships, nightclubs (I drank heavily). Nothing worked. This was probably the worst time of my life. Mormonism would not leave me. I would wake and go to sleep every thinking about Mormonism. It was like I did not fit into the world outside of the Mormon Church, but I did not belong inside it either, as I could not be a hypocrite because I knew that it was false. Many people, especially those who have never been part of a cult, do not realize that the cult is your life - you do not have a life outside of it. You lose everything when you join and leave: your friends. your social life. Life is very empty. You need love, fellowship and support. Then almost five years ago, (March 1996), I was waling around the estate where I lived when I heard music coming from a church. I went in and sat down without even thinking about it. At first I felt a little uncomfortable about being in the church. After a short while a video was put on it was entitled, "Why did Jesus die?" The video was an Alpha course video presented by Nicky Gumbel. The video was very moving. Nicky Gumbel basically presented the gospel. Finally it all hit me that Jesus had died for my sins and for me. ( this is the central core of LDS beliefs) For many years I believed Christianity to be complicated. I tried to understand the Trinity and how we could be saved by grace, not works. That evening was a particularly emotional time for me. I really felt God's love and presence. I committed my life to the Lord that night and I can honestly say that my life has never been the same. God has done so much for me. Before I was saved I always felt dirty. To say that I hated myself is an understatement. To feel clean and worthy in God's sight is wonderful. I was also full of phobias: fear of train lines, fear of death. Jesus has completely set me free. Please don't be fooled. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) There is no other way to be right with God. (the LDS Church is in 100% agreement with this) The God of Mormonism was never satisfied with what I did. I could never do enough. ( NOT! )But that is not what life is meant to be like. We can never earn God's love. Jesus has paid for our sins in full. I now feel that God is calling me to reach out to those who have been deceived. Mormons are not deceivers - they have been deceived themselves. They are decent, good, kind people and I still love them very much; but Mormonism is a second hand religion. There is no relationship with God. ( this is so incredible a allegation that I am ROFLMAO)Jesus said in John 10:10, "I have come that they may have life and have to the full." Cults unfortunately try to get to God in another way and that is not living life to the full, but being trapped in a cage of legalism. Please don't be fooled. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6). There is no other way to be right with God. ( this is what is taught over an over in LDS churches week after week after week) If you have been involved in the Mormon Church in any way I urge you to investigate what I am saying. If you have any questions please contact me at the following address. I will respect your confidentiality and will not be pushy, as I know how difficult such a move would be for you. Your eternal destiny is at state. Don't waste your life following a false prophet as you only get one shot. Make the right choice follow the real Jesus today! (Gail Clark can be emailed at: gailclark_uk@yahoo.co.uk). [source: The Evangel, January 2001 p.4] HERE Again we have the same Anti LDS accusations trotted out and put in the form of a letter supposidly from a former LDS Church Member. Any Person who has ever belonged to The Church can spot this a mile away. All I am trying to do here is show the errors that a person who had been a member would never make--unless they were deliberately lying. Understand I don;t care of you disagree with the LDS church, I don;t care if you are ExLDS but I do care when you try to bolster your position by out right fabrications or half truths How about talking about actual LDS doctrine and why you disagree that would be a useful site And there are some out there but the vast majority are filled with the same drivel- after a while you have cross eyes reading the same canned fallacies over and over How do I know this---because I spent weeks, Months, years reading Every anti site I could find then spent time researching avery allegation before I joined I think I did a fairly good job it only took 35 years! http://www.lds.org/ Last but not least this is the Link to the Church of Jesus Christ Of LAtter Day Saints web site Fully searchable you can research any topic to your hearts content I know it is a novel Idea that one would ask LDS what we believe and teach So much better to get it from people whose knowledge comes from Anti LDS material gleaned from Anti LDS material Gathered from AntiLDS Material printed by persons who wer anti LDS

site Three "and here this is good too" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exmormonism This is the online Encyclopedia Wikipedia They also have this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Latt...t_denominations And this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of...tter-day_Saints It presents both sides of the question and wisely stays out of the question as to who is "right"

Site 2 "and here" http://integrity.com/homes/exmormon/ Ex-Mormon Christian MORMONISM IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK Here are some beliefs Mormons resist telling you at first... The LDS Church is the only true church. The Lord told Joseph Smith personally that all other churches are an "abomination." The Lord said that some of the teachings being espoused by churches of Joseph Smiths day were abominations Any non-Mormon church is automatically part of the "church of the devil." FALSE No other church has the valid priesthood. TRUE The devil has even made a pact with many Christian pastors to teach Christian doctrines about the Trinity and salvation by grace. FALSE in public we say that all religions are good and have some truth. TRUE There are many gods. We deal with three of these distinct gods from the council of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost. UNTRUE there is Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost God, the Father, was once a man like us. TRUE His name is Elohim, and he had a literal father before him. (That means there is a god even higher than God the Father!) The church has never received revelation on this so anything postulated by anyone is on this subject is speculative We can progress to become gods of our own worlds just like the god Elohim. Elohim is the Hebrew Word for GOD. THE LDS church does not use the word preferring God the Father or Heavenly Father. We do believe in Spiritual Progression Jesus is the brother of the devil, not his creator GOD the Father is the creator of Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer as well as the other angels and us Jesus was not born of a virgin. Elohim had sexual relations with his daughter, Mary, to bring about the conception of Jesus. (Not all Mormons are familiar with this teaching.) Again there is a big difference from the ponderings of man including the prophets and revelation by GOD We are not permitted to pray to Jesus, but only to another god named Elohim. We pray to Heavenly Father Celestial heaven is near a star called Kolob. Yes-another something that was take on faith-Proving or disproving by scientific means becomes meaningless The Bible contains doctrinal errors. We believe that "plain and Precious truths" have been lost over the years hence the restored gospel Polygamy is an eternal principle. Mormons still believe in polygamy, but just can't practice it right now. We believe that Polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom Black people were cursed with their black skin because of their inferiority in the pre-existent life. FALSE Native American Indians are really Israelites who were cursed with red skin because of their sin. TRUE on being Israelites False on the Red Skin The current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, is a prophet in exactly the same sense as Moses or Ezekiel in the Bible. TRUE He has authority to write new scripture. He as Prophet, Seer and revelator receives messages from God teh Father-He is not authorized to Write scripture of his own accord The first LDS prophet, Joseph Smith, saw God the Father in the flesh. TRUE Adam did not sin when he ate of the forbidden fruit, but was merely choosing to obey a contradictory command from Jehovah. FALSE Jesus shed his blood to offer us the potential to be forgiven if we successfully stop our sins permanently. FALSE We cannot be saved (forgiven) by grace alone through faith alone. FALSE Secret temple rituals where one learns secret names and secret handshakes contribute to one's exaltation in the celestial kingdom. FALSE No non-Mormon is worthy to go inside a dedicated temple. TRUE No one who pays less than 10% of their income to the LDS Church is allowed inside a functioning temple. TRUE It is possible to eventually become perfect by progressing a little bit at a time through eternal progression TRUE-But eternal progression continues in the afterlife He also Includes a letter which goes to great lengths to show how deeply involved in the LDS church his Family is then goes on to talk about his doubts--but never once cites a less comparison of scripture that he claims to find in compatible. In short this site is nothing more than a rehash of allegation that have been around for over 130 years. And his description of his "life" contains nothing that could not be obtained form even a cursory review of LDS beliefs and practices. the fact that over 50% of what he posts as LDS beliefs is False or at best a half truth makes me doubt he was ever or member or that his family was

Note I am not here to discuss why I believe in the LDS church I am here to discuss the items in these sites Allan Posted on Do you find churches do not have answers? Thread Site One "here"http://exmormon.org/ Recovery from Mormonism This site is dedicated to people Who left the LDS church for a variety of Reasons--They were unhappy they decided they didn't believeWhatever the reason they are goneThis is a rather extensive site with several "proofs" that LDS are Wrong.But as is usually the case "proof" of spiritual things is based on faithTherefore There proof against is no more compelling than my proof for.One thing that this site does, that is similar to other sites is they base much of their argument on events that are many years old (over a Hundred) and no longer in practice if they ever wereThat is akin, to claiming all Roman Catholics support the Spanish InquisitionOr All Congregationalists support the hanging of witchesOr that Jews sacrificed Christian babies to ward off the BLack Death of the 1300's

I am heading for Doctrinal So as Not To derail this thread THere I will Discuss each of the Anti LDS sites Allan is so Proud Of

Lori Please check your PM's Mo

Disc Verify Huh??? WHA...???? :blink: :blink: :blink:

WOW You guys are the greatest Something so simple

running XP Have service PAck 2 installed Running AVast Virus Have Adware The paid for version also running Both Virus and Adware scans have been run No Virus' only Adware was negligible (compaq based talking to itself) but deleted them All definitions up tp date Have a firewall Popups blocked also run Registry Fix Have run windows clean sweep have defraged hard drive

Okay I have told all the programs that Update automatically that they have to wait until I'm on line I even went so far as to disable the automatic update feature <_< And Still my computer would merrily connect itself to the Internet It is a hassle to remember to open folders so I can Dial on the to Internet instead of just clicking the program and dialing automatically when I do But the sneaky program that dials by itself it just too much to handle It doesn;t even have the decency to hang up when it is finished!! So everything is disabled until I make it stop So How do I find the chameleon on my hard drive

Dot have you tried an LDS service Look in the phone book under The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am not saying you will find what you are seeking I can't promise you will find the kind of people you seek at the ward you go to Wards like people have their own personalities. But it is worth a shot ***ducking to avoid the salvo headed my way from NZ***

Allan is IMO opinion caught between a pillar and a post the pillar he has lashed his life to is VPW As the encroaching tides of truth wash the sand of that foundation out from under his feet he is straining toward the post in the large rock, impervious to the lapping water Unfortuantely He wants to take his pillar with him and gets more and more frustrated each time he realizes that the pillar and the post are non compatible and if he wants the safety of the rock, any rock he will have to abandon his pillar to the mercies of the on rushing sea. He keeps coming back because the rock is so enticing and He is still trying to convince himself that the sand is a a lot firmer than it is This is, as I said, My opinion

I am not sure that churches are supposed to have the answer God and his Son Jesus Christ have the answers All church is supposed to do is help you open those lines of communication Church is made up of fallible humans just like me why anyone would demand that another human have the answers that God has is beyond me

To think I might still be in if not for the Rich Urquhart mess I missed most of LCM The fog was enough for me I ache for what some of you folks went through

If the teaching of "the Word" is predicated on the MOG getting revelation And the MOG is dead just exactly where or what can one do but paddle in endless circles?

The only control anyone has in life is the exact second NOW the past is immutable the future unknown

And Your Point is???? Dr Higgins giving VPW copies of Bullinger 's work does not mean that Dr Higgins can confer Copyright issues to VPW If I give you a copy of "Gone With the Wind" that doesn't mean that Margaret Mitchell's rights under Copyright laws are now null and Void Sheesh!

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck... Heartman is that a Greater Sugar Glider That I see as your Avitar?

Whoa--Just a minute It was VPW that God told he would teach the word to like it had not been taught since the first century church.) So God taught Leonard First--Before VPW???? If God says He is going to teach me something and no one else- Then I can rest assured of two things God is going to teach me and God isn't going to be teaching anyone else IF if fact God told VPW He was going to teach him the Word like it hadn't been taught since the first century church then VPW would have been the one taught not Leonard Maybe this is the core of the problem you have with me Allan Scripture Given directly from God to VPW 0 God wouldn't even give revelation directly to VPW he had to go to Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger Etc etc Scripture Given directly from God to Joseph Smith - The Book Of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price & 135 Doctrines plus numerous revelations TWI as of Dec 12, 2005 5,000 -7,000 Members 31 countries LDS Church as of December 12 2005 12,560,869 members 63 Countries The restored gospel is spreading by leaps and bounds The LDS church is an active participant with other Christian organizations around the world in humanitarian aid and disaster relief While TWI continues to dwindle Even people such as yourself who vigorously defend VPW's teachings have abandoned the organization he founded TWI's involvement with other Churches is nil and there involvement in humanitarian work is nil even within the bounds of their own organization

Allan, Anytime you want to meet me down in Doctrinal and fire your questions about LDS --just let me know Meanwhile this thread is about VPW and what I think or don't think about Joseph Smith is completely irrelevant to that subject So how about we get back on topic with these two questions If God was doing the inspiring and VPW was following said inspiration-would VPW have needed Leonard or anyone else? Would God have inspired VPW incorrectly???

Allen, Stop dragging out the fact I am LDS everytime I ask you a question the answer to which you don't like or you don't have. This is about VPW please let us stay there- My point is that despite all your pronouncements and posturing, the reality is that you don't believe VPW was telling the truth either People who do are still in TWI and believe the above The reality is that you know that he plain fabricated the beliefs that are outlined above. The reality is that VPW was not told by God ,or inspired by God, where things of a spiritual nature were concerned --instead he borrowed, extrapolated and just plain fabricated. Or to put it another way--if God was doing the inspiring and VPW was following said inspiration-do you really think he would have needed Leonard or anyone else? or even more to the point would God have inspired him incorrectly???

So tell me Allan-- Do you subscribe to the following beliefs: It is okay to ignore those not of your faith in times of need since they are outside of the "household" If you lose your job and your family becomes impoverished that is because you are not obeying God If a drunk driver hits and kills your child-is it is because of your negative believing and only because of your negative believing I ask because if you believe the above then you are a follower of VPW If you only partially believe it even rejected the items above then you are just like the majority of the rest of us at GSC, no longer a follower because for whatever reason you find VPW's teachings to be fallacious