Mike

Twinky, Maybe it was a typo in my punchline, but you missed the point I was making. I was saying you were so excessively transparent in your tactics, that you failed at achieving a high level of shyster-ness. It is so obvious to me (and possible some lurkers observing) what your tactics are. That’ a plural “you” there; I mean nearly everyone here on this. You are so engaged with trying to undo what I say, that you expose your lack of understanding of what I am saying. */*/*/*/* I'm glad you like my stick-to-it-nesss. I work on it, and am even writing a book (slowly) on the VALID and GOOD techniques for not allowing debate to sway a carefully formed opinion or stance. Reason and debate are overrated. Critical thinking skills are overrated. Can you tell me anything that you have ever seen really proved to be true? Most so-called proofs are really just strong persuasion, often merely repeated associations or emotion. Long ago, in science, I noticed that the more sure a proof is, the more trivial and far removed from human life it is. I think it works that way in other areas, like courtrooms. I consider all math proofs to be this kind of trivial. I like them, but don’t expect math kind of surety to ever be anywhere else in life, outside the Word and what is proved by it. Very rarely is something proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. If it is, it is always trivial. I contend that a debate on a significant life topic can never end with a winner. It may LOOK like it ended at times. An apparent winner may be proclaimed by all, even the “loser,” but all could still be wrong. Who is to say the apparent loser did not simply forget an important point? Or a needed fact was just unknown. Later, after everyone goes home, the point may be remembered. THEN who is the winner??? And who will tell the dispersed audience? Lots of times, especially here, when I or some other proPFAL person presents a point, there is a pile-on to overwhelm with text. Exhaustion is a great way to get your opponent to forget his line, or necessary points. OR, it can just cause the apparent loser to give up, and think he is wrong. But that would be sad, wouldn’t it? Emotion is another great way to falsely win a debate. I saw a shyster lawyer attempt to do this in a big murder case in Georgia, USA just 2 months ago. I think it was Georgia. It was so egregious that, lawyers everywhere should have disbarred her, or at least proclaimed her way over the line. But they won’t. Luckily, this lawyer failed. I’m surprised no one has talked about her gross immorality, and obfuscation of truth. Emotion can influence the audience of a debate as well as the apparent loser-to-be. Truth can get really buried in a debate. There are lots of reasons I dodge debate here, at times. I admit it. That really bothers many. I care not. I care to get the Word out. I do not care about looking like I am winning a debate, especially with life’s losers. If, after decades, you (rhetorical) are not real keen on learning how to operate all 9 manifestations to bless people, and you KNOW about them, then in my book you are a loser. That should pre-occupy all of our attention, doing all the things Jesus did and greater. Just think of how many TWI souls you can save if you had all 9 all the time going! */*/*/* Why should I waste my time on detailed, exhaustive debate with people who are unthankful for being taught that God is good? That is the most wonderful early impression I got from PFAL from the start, and it continues today. When people give more allegiance to stupid copyright customs that to learning to walk with God, then I have no interest in their infantile outcries. I put my life on the line, here, in 1988 with openly bootlegging the PFAL videos. I called my Limb leader and then Howard Allen’s office and told them what I was doing and why. Copyright, shmoppiright! You folks’d make me LoL Out Loud, if it weren’t so tragic how much light you are willing to reject, over really stupid positions of who owns what in a spiritual family. Your copyright objections will burn to smithereens in the fire of 1 Corinthians Chapter 3. */*/* PFAL taught me how to read the other ancient revelations that God has given to us sinners, the Bible. This excites me; I bore easily hearing sensational news here of one sinner being worse than another. Those sinners who think that their own breaking of the greatest commandment is not as egregious as another sinner’s breaking of the greatest commandment are blind. Plain and simple. This was one of the first things that destroyed my Catholic mindset in PFAL: we all equally are sinners, breakers of the greatest commandment. Inventories of lesser sins is pure folly. You folks are WAY too sin conscious here. */*/*/*/* So, Twinky, I’m off my rhetorical addressing, and back talking to you now. How do you, as a professional wordsmith, argue for the goodness of God to a poor unbeliever who is all beat up, and caught up in the negatives of the world? When first witnessing what I was learning in PFAL back in the early 1970s (Receive,Retain,Release), I quickly noticed that there is one BIG question on the street that nags at people. For some it is a theoretical nag; others can be totally overwhelmed by directly experiencing it. It’s the question: WHY is the world so evil, when God is supposed to be so good? Why did a foreknowing God allow Lucifer and Adam to mess it all up? Have you ever noticed how that bugs people to no end? How do you answer it? I mean, convincingly. I heard the old “free will” argument plenty of times, but it did not satisfy me, nor the poor souls I’d witness to. No consolation there at all for them. If you try minister to an intellectual on this topic, you may see tactics thrown at you like I see thrown at me here. Exhaustion, emotion triggers, etc. Anything but dealing with the most important issues is what that kind of debate generally devolves to. Have you ever been able to convince someone that God is good, in spite of the bad? I’d love to hear your arguments for the goodness of God, and then I’ll tell you the answer I eventually got…. That is IF you can convince me that you want to meekly learn, even from a ringer like me. But, if you just want another round of debate (like others here so obviously do) then (yawn) I’ll try my best to fit you into my calendar….. someday…. when I’m not busy. Yeah, that’s the ticket! When I’m not busy.

Translation: "No matter how much sense Mike can make, you have a "Spectrum Excuse" from me and my good sense to JUST PAY NO ATTENTION to his logic or words." Twinky you your transparency works against typical shyster lawyer tactics. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, your only honest move is to vote Twinky guilty."

LoL. So you appreciate Twinky's speculation and guessing! Why is that not a surprise to me? When you folks get desperate you change the topic to an attack on me with guesses and speculations. I hope you know this is apparent to all readers, including the ones you (plural) are supposing to "minster" to. And speaking of those that are supposedly ministered to by all the whistleblowers here, I wonder if you ever thought through what those people do AFTER being so warned about the evils of one institution. Without the accurate Word, they go and get ripped off by some other entity. Duh! When are you folks going to offer God's Word to people? How many are you undershepherding right now? Time is a wasting, and you all will be held accountable for all the speculations and guessing you do. Get a life! Teach one person the Word, if you are still able.

You folks seem to be crawling the walls for something to talk about. You got a dead topic, but can't move on, it seems. No, I'm not a fake account, nor a Way leader. I'm just someone who genuinely benefited greatly from PFAL and some leaders. To this day I STILL am benefited by VPW and the Word he taught. If any of you are better qualified to bless God's people then DO IT! The so-called plagiarism is another dead topic. Complain to God about it, why don't you. I was in the slow lane sexually, and never directly saw any problems, until 1982, and they were relatively tame, not involving any leaders. I was not coerced into the Corps, and I waited for 11 years before I felt ready to go WOW. Maybe God protected me. Just to end these REALLY desperate and stupid suggestions about me, please ask Ralph Dubofski if I am real. He knew me on Long Island where even HE admits many got super blessed in the early 1970s there, before he went into the Corps. Or ask Pawtucket. I met him when he visited Pam Sandiego 15 years, and he gave me a GreaseSpot T-shirt. Now, I hope we can have better conversations, now that all these idiotic guesses about me can end. I will define "better" and, but can bet you wont accept my definition.

That's nice to hear. Please send me a PM. I forget how to do it here.

Not lately, I know, but I did an abundance of that 15 years ago here. Right now I doubt if you really want to hear them, but you could convince me otherwise. Maybe I'll feel inspired to compile a list sometime.

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/* I hear you. chockful. And, I can sympathize with two thirds of your post. One of the lucky skills I picked up from my very Catholic father was dodging inevitable corruptions that large institutions are prone to. He always sought out the rare RC deep thinkers, and learned to avoid the dark spots, like nuns and big-wig clergy. Large institutions are like marble cake, and as TWI grew it had plenty of dark spots. I was pretty successful (like my dad) in avoiding them, but my luck started running out in the mid-80s. My most consistent theme in my posting here is that from PFAL there were many pure things put into written form. At that time we only absorbed a fraction of the material, and since that time we forgot a lot of what we did absorb. I would suggest that people who suffered from the wrong slices of the marble cake take a second, fresh look at the many pure PFAL things put into written form. A fresh look would mean dissociating oneself from the social darkness they experienced in the past. Understandably, this is not so easy for some people. I NEVER GET POSITIVE INSPIRATION BY LOOKING AT MY TROUBLED PAST, or by looking at all those who offended me, or by looking at all those whom I offended. I do get positive inspiration from looking solely at the teaching we got in PFAL (not the people) and how it still opens up God’s Word to us better than any of the splinter groups or the Big Stump.

Ok, chockfull asked: Does this mean the way is letting you back in? Are you now again an active member? Have they permitted this? I thought my answer had implied answers of "No, No, and No." Those are my overt answers.

I'm not even close to an active attendee; just an occasional visitor. A year can pass between visits. I e-mail a few members a bunch. They are slowly turning back to the original PFAL and I am encouraging them there.

After my first PFAL exposure in 1971, I was soon a twig leader, branch AV guy, branch meeting room guy, then at HQ on staff for 2 years in the mid '70s, then twig leader in CA, then wow'82. Was not happy with much of the mega TWI in mid '80s, and pretty much quit TWI around 1988. The glory years, for me, were the 1970s in NY, and the large numbers of new people learning how to SIT was utterly spectacular, compared to later decades. The class video and books perfectly built these early glory years. Early supervision from TWI was very helpful, but a decade later it interfered more than helped. I was never in the Corps, and always deliberately opposed to joining, and often in disgust of it's attitudes. I thought it was mismanaged, and one of VPW's bigger mistakes.

Well, it's been fun, but I think I hear my mother calling me. Maybe we can play word games again sometime.

Sure feels like pure gaslighting to me from you. I don't know what I experienced, but you know better. I don't know what I still use today, but you know better. Were you in the Corps?

That grammar looks to me you are saying: "Do you have some objective evidence you were helped? [implied: No] Because you weren't [helped]. Did I rightly divide what you wrote? I was helped, and A LOT! I have some of the proof in the wide margins of my KJV. But this is not a proof to you when I say I was helped. It is testimony, though. I testify that I was helped 60 years ago by PFAL and I continue to pass that help on to others. Proving that to you is not a high priority of mine. You might change my mind. How hungry for help are you right now?

Do you have some subjective evidence that I was not helped? Of course, you do not. I have evidence I was helped, and I cherish it. To the degree you would cherish it, I will tell you. For someone to tell me I don't know what happened in my life and what I think is invalid is pretty much the definition of gaslighting, is it not? I get the feeling you are not able to observe your own behavior here.

It looks to me like you are attempting to gaslight me right now. LoL Are you ? Or was that accidental?

I reported in great detail on this a year or three ago here. I'll look for it to paste. Bottom line: I was a devout Catholic with 8 years of Nun training by the time I was 14.

I think I saw that phenomenon some. But I'm talking about the point #1 which focused on the "...difference between...." What I saw were grads who did not make the Word their own, meaning flash on the messages Paul as in the Scriptures. They did well with slogans and memes and some verbal memorizing, but they did not really get down to being familiar with all the material in the Scriptures. T-Bone, you made other points with your simile, which I think is a no-no. At least it is in parables, where only one point is being made. I disagree with your other point that characterizes the Word I was taught as processed food being dished out by mindless workers. Yes, there sere some of those types also, but I learned how to avoid them. In my experience, I did not really trust what VPW taught until I could see it in my KJV. That went fast and easy with some topics, and slow and painful for some others. In the end I was a satisfied customers because God was glorified in my life, and I knew Jesus Christ as a big brother, and I was free from condemnation. I understand that some missed out on these treasures.

Yikes! That was just the opposite of my experience. My life was loaded with guilt and the Word I learned in the class helped me a lot.

Howdy all. Rocky “What do you learn when you do that?” I’m hoping they are ready to learn some things, and that I learn what they are thinking and what their needs are, instead of guessing. */*/*/*/*/*/* Johnj “which limb? how small? how long ago?” California, Pentecost 2018, 60 people. But I had THIS YEAR had dinner with one long standing CA leader and lots of e-mail with him, and then some small e-mailing with a staff member I had an inside tip would be receptive to an e-mail from a stranger like me. */*/*/*/*/*/*/* Bolshevik “A key to narcissistic abuse recovery is going no contact. Going no contact means no contact, Mike.” I wasn’t abuse, and I approach them to minister to them, just like I minister to you here. Minister means serve. I am trying to help, because I was helped. */*/*/*/*/*/*/* Hi Twinky. How’s it going? I’ve been enjoying the Book of Romans. Do I remember right, that you are a lawyer. How do you feel about the legal aspect of Romans.

Do any of you folks ever talk to current TWI members? I seek them out, mostly older grads of the real Foundational Class from 1968, and ev en attended a very small Limb meeting. It is good to remind them of what was good about the good old days. I make it a point t call HQ ever so often.

It was a typo. Should read "The intensely negative tone" I have turned to the positive tones, like Ephesians twenty something positive verbs in the first chapters. "Mighty Fighter of the Evil Forces" is another sarcastic title, similar to "Bad Guy Busters" like the comedy movie "Ghost Busters." I see it in politics all the time, and here, where the important work in life is identifying the evil ones and magnifying them, distributing collateral damage to those who are exposed to the flood of negatives. The world is so full of evil (and so are we from Romans 2) that it is easy to get inspiration to spot the bad guys and magnify the details of their evil. But what does that really DO for people, besides warn them that "there's ANOTHER one of them." ? It's hard to spot the good guys, especially when all of them are tainted (just like us) with evil. It's hard to magnify the details of the good they exemplify. It's hard to pass on the positives to a cynical world. It's THIS job we should be occupying most of our time. A little bad guy busting on the side may be called for a times. Here is what I find about all of us having to deal with in our old man nature in Romans 2. We should be busting these things that come within us being born to Adam's race behind enemy lines: As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

I'm not a doctor, but I do look like one on the radio. No, I don't want to bear their crosses. I just want to fine tune my understanding so I can better pass on the good stuff.

Yes that happened a lot... but usually over coffee in the 1970s I saw a few big-wigs do it, but mostly it was us peons. I never saw it in a SNS tape or Mag article. That was an area that needed a lot of fine tuning. I'm still on that for myself.

Thanks for the invite. I actually do believe you. Last week I was just talking about MORE efficiency in learning toward doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater. I know I do better the more I turn my focus off the TWI negatives and onto the positives of the Word. My 5 years of daily exposure to the TWI negatives was all I could handle, and I just wanted to live the positives. Just as I believe you can do SOME good with daily exposure to such negatives coming here to GSC, I also believe the current folks at TWI-4 can do some good, karmicly immersed in some past negatives daily. For myself, for you and all GSC people working and ministering the Word, and for all the grads in TWI now, I wish and pray for maximum acceleration toward more accuracy, more love, and more power. Plus I thank you for the tone I feel from you letter. I wanted to say the same tone thanks to WordWolf, but my time is very scarce this week. Maybe soon I can be back to continue this positive trend. Thank you for sharing your heart, Twinky.

It's the intensely tone I believe is making your good works less effective. I think the tone of this being a Mighty Fighter of the Evil Forces is a counterfeit. Any good counterfeit is going to be camouflaged with lots of good. Hey, that's just my opinion, and we'll someday find out EXACTLY what gets burned away and what is rewarded.