Mike

I think this is off topic. Back to topic: Can you answer my two moderately difficult questions above?

Does that mean you can't answer the two questions? Why did God make Paradise hidden or absent? Why did God make the man Jesus hidden or absent?

Maybe, but you ought to study nothing but the Church Epistles for 3 months first, so that you can understand my beliefs. I asked 2 moderately difficult questions. Why is Paradise hidden or absent? Why is Jesus hidden or absent? If you had studied VPW's teachings better you would know the answer. Instead you criticize what you haven't yet understood. I will let the questions sit, so that others can exercise their memories. Tell me, Nathan_Jr, what do you plan to do with the answers, should you understand them?

How about I just throw you a bone?

An interesting thought flashed across my mind. Tell me it this rings accurate. If not I will check the video. In the Rock of Ages movie, there is a scene with VPW talking to a little boy. VPW asks him "Where's Jesus?" The little boy points up. VPW points to the little boy's chest and says "He's in there." or something like that. Here we have VPW condescending way down to the little boy's vocabulary, and really asked the boy "Where is Christ?" ... meaning holy spirit. That holy spirit, Christ in you, is within every believer. Context helps not only in Biblical interpretation but everywhere and in everything.

New International Version After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. Berean Standard Bible After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. Aramaic Bible in Plain English And when he had said these things, as they saw him, he was taken up and a cloud received him and he was hidden from their eyes. NET Bible After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Acts Chapter 1 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up [away from them] ; and a cloud received him out of their sight [hidden]. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven [far away] as he went up [away from them], behold, two men stood by them [near] in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you [gone] into heaven [far away], shall so come [be present again] in like manner as ye have seen him go [away] into heaven[far away]. Timeline: Verse 6 – Jesus physically present Verse 7 – Jesus physically present Verse 8 – Jesus physically present Verse 9 – Jesus far away, and then hidden Verse 10 – Jesus absent, but only temporary Verse 11 – Jesus taken up, absent, gone */*/*/*/* Now, after getting the timeline on his absence straight, it would next be good to discern what VPW meant by “Christ” in the phrase “absent Christ.” Did he mean the man Jesus, or the man Jesus Christ, or the man Christ Jesus, or the man Christ ?… OR did he mean the gift of holy spirit, which is Christ in you? OR did he mean “the anointing or the unction," which is what “Christ” means. I can see from previous posting that some of you think it’s Jesus the man, and some think it’s holy spirit. Well, we know that holy spirit came in abundance 10 days later, so that is not absent. And First John tells us we have the anointing. That just leaves Jesus, the man. From what I see in all his teachings, I put my money on VPW meaning “the absent man” when he said the absent Christ. Plus, that's what Acts says. I realize that Christ is not Jesus’, the man’s last name. But in that phrase VPW referred to the man, Christ, by the title or the description of specialness that makes up the meaning of the word “Christ.” Is the man Jesus present or absent? If present now, then how will he be described at the Return? More present? I think not. */*/*/*/ Now, instead of getting upset over the absent man, Christ Jesus, I have a much more intriguing question. Instead of complaining that VPW made Jesus absent, why not ask yourself WHY do we read in Acts above that Jesus went far away and hidden by an act of God, presided over by angels. WHY would God be as nasty as you all say VPW was, and hide Jesus from us, take him far away, make him absent? Why did Acts 1:9 happen? “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up [away from them] ; and a cloud received him out of their sight [hidden].” What is the GREAT benefit for us in God causing Jesus, the man, to be absent? WHY, WHY, WHY did God do such a thing? */*/* Those of you who think that Jesus, the man, is NOT absent will likely miss the great benefit God established for us in moving Jesus far away and hiding him. This is a bit counter-intuitive, like the angel with flaming sword guarding the entrance to Paradise after Adam and Eve were cast out. That flaming sword looks like a negative to us, at first, but it is actually a GREAT blessing that God blocked Paradise, and made it “absent” this way. The ”absent Christ” looks like it is negative, until you flash on God’s reasons for making Christ (the man) absent. Does anyone know WHY God made Paradise absent, and why that was a blessing? Does anyone here, besides me, know WHY it was a GREAT blessing to us that God had Acts 1:9 happen, and Jesus moved far away, totally hidden, and absent until sent back. Has anyone noticed that absent and sent are opposites? Absent is like “sent away,” just like we read in Acts 1:9. And if any are unhappy with me emphasizing “the man” try retemorizing this: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” 1 Timothy 2:5

I suppose a lot of posters here would find the wording of the "HIDDEN Christ" just as repulsive as the absent Christ? I like them both.

I am.

Ditto for TWI positions and their evolution. I am petitioning TWI leaders to consider what all Hi Tech companies must do, and that is have a formal system for documenting the old way of doing things and the new way. In such a system such notices are called ECNs for Engineering Change Notices. There have been quiet policy chages at TWI and I am advising they be made formal, like with ECNs.

VPW had a lot of good sources. That tells me that there are lot of truths out there being enjoyed by non-grads of PFAL. If those others BELIEVE any of the promises of God, then He is able to bless them abundantly. I am not surprised that some rise above the error in their denominations and churches to have some joy. I doubt if they get the whole story, and expect that they have to limp at times. But then again, so do I. We all are growing. We pro-PFAL grads have found that we get a lot of benefits by working the KJV with the keys and foundation we got from PFAL.

What you take as in insult is actually constructive criticism.

I would rejoice if others heard the same truths, re-branded, and were in the same heavenly family with us. You have no idea how I think. That is because you are not willing to listen to me. You only look for ammunition in my words that you can shoot at me. Same with how you are reading this transcript from 1965. Not a shred of understanding. LATE ADDITION: I purposely do not copyright my writing, even my comedy and science and hippie-history writing. I think I do this for the same reason VPW never copyrighted the SNT teaching tapes, and the film class. I never saw a copyright notice in the film class until aroung 1982, and I was the Branch AV guy for many years. I am into the ideas.

It looks to me that if I am right, that thousands of old grads ARE still being blessed by the collaterals, that would be pretty bad news to some posters here. Ditto for the new grads of PFAL-T who get a full set of collaterals, including the PFAL book. Also, there are the MANY splinter groups who partially lean on the collaterals (at least in memory), and are still very thankful for their solid foundation in PFAL, even if they disagree with some points. Even the mere possibility that I am right here MUST be challenged!. My claim MUST be drowned out and buried. Why? Ask yourselves, if you are in this sad category, why do you so want to see those thousands NOT blessed? This sounds to me like a pretty negative corner to have painted oneself into. */*/*/*/*/* I hang out with lots of proPFAL people. I have contacted and seen on the Internet many of them over the years How many do you hang out with? What I mean by "hang out" is have deep discussions with, either in person, by voice-phone, or text. Do you have any proPFAL people in your intellectual life's network. Are you insular this way? If so, you will be very surprised someday when you finally see all the joy we pro-PFAL people have. I suggest you folks branch out and get some new ideas flowing regarding PFAL. Have you ever heard of intellectual inbreeding?

Baloney !!! I looked at the good fruit first, and THEN I started to believe his claims. It occurred to me that I didn't have the ability to look at the fruit in HIS life, but in my life, and in the lives of my friends who took the class, the fruit was (and still is) abundant and good. This process is STILL going on, where people get massively blessed with the collaterals when they take the new TWI foundational class. They get to see the fruit in their lives as they put the content of the collaterals into their Bible reading and lives. Many thousands right this minute are thankful for PFAL and how it helped them. You folks missed this bus, but there is still another one you can catch. It's not too late. It will be too late someday. Coming back to PFAL meekly would work for you folks, if you looked away from your manufactured anti-idol, and looked instead at how to work with God by saturating your minds with the revelation God taught VPW to put into writing to us.

No, you failed to read my mind, and only read my actions (or inaction) with the brown-colored glasses you wear when you look at me. The real reason I didn't start a separate thread is because I expected sharp criticisms from others and management if I were to post my own thread on it, starting with a super long post. I got into hot water a lot years ago for long posts (and even some for starting my own), so I try to maintain a light footprint here. But thank you again for posting the whole thing (again) with it's own thread title. That makes it much easier to find. Now MANY more people can read it easily, besides the regular posters. And they wont overlook the thread after seeing my name as originator. Thanks again for that! It is the case that I have OFTEN quoted or referred to this tape. The transcript is worth a slow read, and for understanding, sans the gotchya game. The kind of revelations God gave VPW over the years is well documented there, heavily infused in the Key #4b from the AC, which is "What youcan know by the five senses God expects you to know." In other words, a lot of it involved LOTS of sense knowledge work. So much so, that God expedited the process. He gave many little revelations to many authors prior to VPW, and then directed him to them. That saved a lot of work for VPW, so he could put together more material for us, and work on marketing and distribution around the world in ways that people like Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Keynon, Leonard were not capable of. WHO on God's green earth could have spread the Word to the Hippies but VPW ??? Most of you heard the Word ultimately due to Hippies effectively speaking it and spreading it. It was pretty Ohio bound (in spite of international efforts of VPW) until the Hippies got involved. I'm not sure who it was that recognized the significance of this portion of an old SNS tape. That portion was cut out and put on a cassette and circulated around California in the early meltdown years. I didn't find it until 1998, and it was pretty amazing to have so many of my questions answered. WordWolf, did you ever read it when I posted it two (maybe three) times in the past?

WordWolf, I am very happy you started this thread. Had I started it, I'd probably get worse criticisms than yours above. I don't share the persnickety attitudes toward where or when something should be posted. Yesterday I saw, again, a need for posters to read that transcript, in spite of my several postings, so I referred to it.... but certainly not suddenly. That tape has been a central item in my thinking, so I also posted the link to its entirety yesterday. After that link I posted this "late edit" that maybe you did not see. I think I posted this a total of 3 times in past years. Late Edit - It is amazing how many times over the years I have cited passages from this tape. This explains so much! I think many here avoid reading this because it undermines the central focus here, which is sin. This is too loaded with answers, and it seems to repel people who want to dwell on sin and play Gotcha all the time. I wonder if many here are even able to read this whole transcript. I can see from this week's posting to me here that most here are completely lacking the detail that this transcript provides. PLEASE READ IT so we can have a conversation that doesn't resemble a Marx Brothers movie. Not knowing this tape's transcript pretty much guarantees an inability to understand what I am saying. So, thanks again for posting the entire transcript. I hope readers will attempt to read it all on their own with God's love in their heart. Maybe some will be able to do this, and not need your coaching and leading them by the hand. There are deep reasons why this transcript was not read the time(s) I posted it in the past. I think you were one of the non-readers because you repeated you mistaken posting that the first time the 1942 promise came up in 1972's "The Way - Living In Love." You can see in this highly neglected transcript that VPW mentions it in 1965 on tape. Who knows how many other earlier tapes have it?

WordWolf you get so many facts wrong it makes me wonder if there is something in the water there at GSC. "Mike suddenly won't shut up about it." WHAAAAAT !!?? I have posted that entire transcript 2, maybe 3 times. I have OFTEN referred to it since 2003. "Somehow, I think Mike doesn't want us discussing it OPENLY." I posted the link yesterday in large, bold, red letters ! I sharply challenged people here to read it ALL !!! Have you thought of switching to bottled water?

I think it is important, when a topic is being aired, that tangents be tolerated if they are started to correct a major error or fill in a gaping hole. If the topic is ALL THAT IMPORTANT, the thread will be here after the tangents are done. I am done, essentially, but then OTHERS here (see it's not just my fault) have to jump on and dissect every point I make. I made my justifiable minor tangential remarks, and they generate MUCH INTEREST that is directed away from the initial topic. Returning to the original topic will be easy if it is important and if there are still many points to make that are straight on-topic. Personally, I thought the thread had pretty much run its course when I stepped in heavily a few days ago.

It is extremely obvious most here only read my posts to gather ammunition to play "Gotcha" at me. There is almost zero connection I am making in this communication. I haven't had time to skim read the above 5 or so posts, but maybe later I will be able to do that. In skimming I could quickly see another set of Gotcha disconnects. One of the items that is missing in most of your minds is one that I have recently mentioned a few times. This is the "Light Began to Dawn" tape that circulated in the mid 1980s. If you haven't read ALL of this yet you missed a huge chunk of the story. It is posted here: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24553-the-wierwille-legacy-who-will-write-the-book/page/10/#comment-587331 I think I posted this a total of 3 times in past years. Late Edit - It is amazing how many times over the years I have cited passages from this tape. This explains so much! I think many here avoid reading this because it undermines the central focus here, which is sin. This is too loaded with answers, and it seems to repel people who want to dwell on sin and play Gotcha all the time. I wonder if many here are even able to read this whole transcript. I can see from this week's posting to me here that most here are completely lacking the detail that this transcript provides. PLEASE READ IT so we can have a conversation that doesn't resemble a Marx Brothers movie. Not knowing this tape's transcript pretty much guarantees an inability to understand what I am saying.

skyrider, in addition to seeing some distorted histrionics at the beginning of this thread about that 3 month study suggestion, I now see you performing Winston Smith's historical revision duties here in the same thread. Item #1 The truths Leonard taught belonged to God, from Whom he got some good revelations. He also had error. VPW's job was to collect these revelations God had given to Leonard and to many others and "put it all together." There were items in VPW's teachings that were not in Leonard's teachings. There were items in Leonard's teachings that were NOT in VPW's teachings. He filtered out Leonard's errors for us. That is the actual history. VPW righteously collected what God told him to collect and teach. I totally reject the ideas you folks nurture here on copyrights and originality and ownership. None of that market stuff or academic stuff belongs in God's family. God gives revelation and He owns it. */*/*/*/*/*/* Item #2 PFAL '77 was originally planned to be the upgraded foundational class. As part of VPW's preparation for teaching PFAL'77 he started auditing the old 1968 film class, FOR THE FIRST TIME two weeks before the class was to begin. In 1968, all he had time for was watching the first half hour, and then he took that trip to meet San Francisco hippies. Ten years later he finally sees the whole 1968 class. Four days before the start of PFAL'77 he came to the BRC lunchroom. I was there. He said that God had told him that the whole idea to replace the '68 class was not from God and not wise. VPW also said he could never keep up with the pace of that class, and that God had given him some special revelations that should stay in circulation with that original class. This was on a Wednesday, best I can remember. On that week's SNS tape he mentions some of the things that he said in the BRC basement a few days before. Then PFAL'77 started the next day. The plan to have PFAL'77 replace the original film class was aborted 4 days before PFAL'77 started. I was there and I have witnesses. There were over a hundred people there when he made this announcement of a change in plans. I posted all this data (and much more) in "A PFAL'77 Story" here 15 years ago. I think I may have posted it twice. One was in the thread "Masters of the Word" which had to be deleted during the "Bandwidth Crisis" some time ago. But it may be in another thread here still. I am not good with search engines. LATE EDIT : I just found the larger "PFAL'77 Story" here: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24553-the-wierwille-legacy-who-will-write-the-book/page/2/#comment-586383

It was the content ! It was the content of the information, which BTW, is still potent and blessing people when they give it a shot. The way I was "reeled in" was by attending a very enthusiastic, but also very young local fellowship. My first twig leader was 17 years old, while I was 22. Most of the attendees were teenagers in High School who had not yet taken the class. My second twig leader was 21 and only had the class for 6 months. Sunday Night Service tapes were on reel to reel then, and almost no one had a player. With a zero level of theatrics, I read the PFAL book, and then RHST, and then I learned how to SIT all alone while reading. THEN I took the class 4 months later. By best friend in High School heard from me of my attending Bible fellowships, and I gave him the Green Book. He read the 2 chapters on SIT and did it himself without ever going to a fellowship or taking the class. He took it a few months later. It was the content that did it. We hippies all thought the theatrics were funny. Leadership was always telling us to stop laughing so much at his corny, Ohio, uncool, theatrics. The content did it, IN SPITE of the theatrics for me, and a lot of others. It was the content.

Well, yours was long and involved, LOTS to discuss, and it would be a long involved derailing then. I had some time, but your posts are long and involved, so I may not have enough time as well.

Rocky, I am not up for a fight. I backed off at your request. I find it fascinating how necessary it is for me to refresh my memory. It too gets distorted without refresh. It is totally normal; happens to everyone. If I wanted to fight you on this I could start a thread on it. All these years I have viewed my visits here as a service to help people remember what has faded, and to find out what they missed in the originals, both video and written.