Mike

I was only 22, but I had a fairly long previous history of giving Roman Catholicism a solid try. I had never touched or even seen a Bible. By reading the PFAL book I could see that I had missed something big. I was very quickly impressed at how GOOD God turned out to be. I could understand the principles in PFAL and applied them to my own massive reading. This generated LOTS of questions. At the 1972 Rock of Ages I happened to park right next to Dr. and Mrs. Wierwille's little camper. Or maybe he parked next to me. I had brought with me some books and a LONG list of questions. Earlier that Summer, Walter C. had answered a large fraction of my questions at a Renewed Mind Camp. Everything I was learning in those days revolved around the goodness of God, and how Jesus Christ made it all happen via his obedience. I had great joy and learned how to get answers to questions that had plagued me as a Catholic. I have reported much here some small number of years here how John's first Epistle became a highlight in my life. When I read it now, I have all kinds of peace and love flashbacks to those early 70s when I first was taught the pure Word. Now I love bringing it into my action in loving others. I had always thought as an RC that the end of the world was something to fear. I now love the promise and the hope of his, the man Christ Jesus' Return. I had great joy then, and I have it again now.

Just checking, chockful... did you purposely or accidentally get it wrong what I meant by "what went right" ??? I meant what INITIALLY went SO RIGHT for you (and others here) that you would commit so much of you life to PFAL. I'm thinking the parable of the Sower and the Seed. Initially, upon hearing the Word, it was received with great joy, but later on the problems arose that interfered with that joy. How did you ALL (not just chockful) like that joy when it was happening? Can you get back to any of it? Have you tried? I am fascinated by what went right for me, and for others I was close to. I too eventually went down the drain, and lost my initial joy when things went wrong. I was less personally hurt directly, but many of my beloved friends were greatly discouraged and/or significantly hurt. But it DID work for a while, and we did see that God was good... and better than any religion had taught us prior to PFAL. When I was shown in 1998 that there were a bunch of things I had forgotten, and a bunch of things that I never quite "got," I decided to come back to PFAL (written form) and review it by simple reading. In a very short time, and by doing this review with a few others, I was astounded at the RETURN of my initial joy. It can happen. It did happen. It can happen for you. And then you can help people SORT through their past, and separate the truth from the error. You don’t have to be a spoilsport with them, and only magnify the negatives. You can help others find the joy again, and distance themselves from the negatives. It is worth it for the joy.

LoL And people complain that I derail threads!

Don't make me get out my makeup and costumes! I admit that what I post is against the grain here. Yes, when it comes to most of my posts, they will be reminding people of the great positives that are missing here. You seem to think that ONLY your way should be focused on. Have at it. If you want to be more balanced and find some common ground, read the above.

" do think it's absurd to realize we've all been having virtually the exact same discussion with NO apparent common ground found." I think it is most important for us to magnify what went right in TWI and PFAL. Most posters oppose this unflinchingly, with no exceptions. I have flinched, though, and I have heard the negatives expressed. I know some of them are factually correct. I still don't think they should get Number One Billing in my life and not in my posting here. I want to deal with the negatives, but not the way they are handled here. THERE is your common ground. I work on the negatives in private and with anyone, even TWI officials. I chose to try and limit my posting to what went right. It is a side in ALL of these matters that needs to be presented. So, I suggest GreaseSpotters flinch a little, and start a new train of thought: what went right at TWI and PFAL. Then we will have more common ground. */*/*/* "...Something or somebody really should consider figuring out how to actually "connect" such that you give genuine consideration to viewpoints on GSC you've stubbornly refused to do so. ..." As I said above, I do give genuine consideration to viewpoints on GSC, the negative ones where things went wrong, but I chose to do it all in private.

I hear you there. When I am presenting my message, I try my BEST to not push emotional buttons. I want it as clear and pure as possible. (a business like transaction) When I am dealing with LOTS and LOTS of hostile texts from several people at once, and they use strong button pushing rhetoric on me, THEN button pushing is the name of the game. It is also called theater. I have been lucky to have experience in real theater, and I use it to strongly defend myself. I try my best to compartmentalize those two writing modes, but in the midst of battle I may may make mistakes, or face strong enough opposition that demands strong response, and both are used. Like right now, I am pushing NO buttons, trying to be business-like clear, and being pretty fully open. ...not theater...

Thank you, sir, also.

Rocky, in case you haven't noticed, I have done a number of things to avoid aggravating you. One of them is to pretty much isolate myself in one thread lately, as I sensed your seething a while back. Your emotions leak through your texts. It's not worth it you getting your dandruff up in this extreme. We're all old here, and our health depends more and more on steering towards calm and peace, and not harsh anger. Is there anything more I can do to make it go smoother for you? */*/*/* You seem to be implying that I should be banned. Are you? If so, you can say so. I wouldn't freak out. You wouldn't be the first. */*/*/* If you really need a "vacation" from me, like for 6 months or so, we could talk about that, too. I mean, like for health reasons. */*/*/* How about this? Might this be a thorn in your paw? Yes, I dodge lots of questions thrown at me. There are several reasons for that, and I have been open about them in the distant past. Is there any one thing in the litany of things above in this thread that you'd like to see me handle in detail? I'd consider doing that. Really, we'd have to limit it to one thing, though, and I can't guarantee my chosen amount of detail will give you satisfaction, but I'll try. Honestly, there is a swath of posts above (when we moved to Doctrinal Dungeons) loaded with things in that litany above I have not yet read. Sometimes time gets suddenly scarce when you run a small business. Anyway, I am serious about getting back to the Word taking the place of the absent Christ. It won’t take long.

Er... um... can we get back on topic? Did we fully handle how the Word takes the place of the absent Christ yet? Does anybody want to get into that?

I repeat: my mission here is to focus on the good we got, what was forgotten, and what was not really absorbed well long ago. Because I am CORRECT about these items, and you folks have twisted your minds into a totally NEGATIVE perspective of our PFAL past, my corrections do all kinds of things: push buttons, sound delusional, undermine what others try to build here, great irk, etc. It is the negative focus and the lack of understanding of what we were taught that is the problem here. Truth just doesn't mix well in many un-renewed minds here. It can produce cognitive dissonances. I see fight or flight reactions to me all the time here from the cognitive dissonances my posting can stimulate. In the flight mode I see all the mockery. I do not aim to produce these reactions, and every now and then I think it is good for me to back off a bit when they get feverish. My goal is to remind anyone here that what we were taught was GOOD, and like parable of the sower and the seed there are several modes of rejection of what I post. I constantly see forgetting of details in the class and collaterals, or evidence that portions were never absorbed. I post to this effect and, because I am correct, hardly anyone can handle it.

If my words were as delusional as you describe, then y'all would not put hours into refuting them, and then when that fails, more hours into documenting my delusions from scattered past references. LoL

If my words were so delusional as you describe, then this thread would still be in About the Way for more people to see. LoL

I find it amusing that after I effectively de-bunked your opening post, that the “absent Christ” teaching was so terrible, you run and hide under boos and hissing regarding OFF TOPIC items. Had you and the others paid better attention to the good we received long ago about God's wisdom to hide the man Jesus’ flesh from us and cause this temporary absence, this humiliating retreat of yours would not be necessary. How did you feel when Raf, Oldiesman, and even Nathan_Jr supported my take on the absent Christ? But instead of going back to PFAL to get it more right and more fully, you joined the focus on the things that went wrong in those days, on sin and shortcomings of humans. LIKEWISE, had you and WW paid more attention to IDEAS what I write, you'd have noticed that the whole thing about my little dual with one poster long ago, over the Orange Book and Christ's being clarified by me, here, many months ago. You can search the archives for my explanantion. Instead you focus on ways to try humiliate me. LoL If I were worried about looking bad to blind eyes, I'd have never stepped into this food fight. I am only interested in proving that you folks know not what you criticize. I succeed at this OFTEN here. I am constantly pointing out how you folks forgot MUCH from the good old days, and weren't mature enough enough to even understand some of the deep items we were taught. You must have seen SOME good to sign up for the class and hang in there with the botched Craig Ministry. I recognize your extreme handicap at having got in so late. I think I saw you mention it was like 1993? All you saw was Craig’s desparate moves then, and had little time to take many PFAL classes before it was dumped in 1995. How many times have you sat thru the entire class? Many of us in the good old days had over 20 sittings to learn from that class. You saw the worst of TWI, and very little of the original class. If there is any way you could like me to help you with this handicap, please feel free to let me know.

You are correct about a few things there, mis-addressing a few, and dead wrong on others. Maybe I will have time to sort them out for you, maybe not. Like I said in my About the Way swansong (above): I made some solid points, I got backup on them from Oldiesman and Raf, Nathan_Jr got one post perfect, and, as I have OFTEN done for 19 years here, I pointed out twice with simple questions that many here criticize material that they forgot by now, or had never deeply absorbed in the good old days.

I should quit while I'm ahead. Seeing Nathan_Jr get that one post SO RIGHT was nice, and I am thankful for that. It's not my intention to subvert the "mission" of GSC so I can back off now. It is definitely not my intention to rile anyone emotionally. In the old GSC software, I think the motto that accompanied my name was something like "Offering the OTHER side to the other side." I forget. Is it in the archives? I feel that with the absent Christ topic I had a chance to say all that I thought was important. It is good that Christ is absent, so we can be ambassadors (thank you Goldie Oldiesman), and we will enjoy Christ's Return more if he is absent now (thank you Raf). Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Great! I got my safety belt tight. Ready for the ride into the dungeon. This will give me a great excuse for not finishing my unresponded-to challenges. How many are there? Anyone keeping track?

The Biblical writers teach you there, along with God.

No, we were taught that when God wants to emphasize something in His Word He uses a figure of speech. They didn't have the option of bold fonts, or exclamation points, or large fonts, or ALL-CAPs characters. We do have them. When we teach we can use figures of speech to emphasize, but often will be misunderstood, unless our students are sharp and pay close attention.

I actually LIKE that! You got it right! And on every point you just posted. Good job. Adding to it: the absent Jesus, the man, can be expressed as the figure of speech "The absent Christ" but only as long as we are talking about the PHYSICAL Christ. The PHYSICAL written Word takes the place of the PHYSICALLY absent Christ (figurative). which is equivalent to: The PHYSICAL written Word takes the place of the PHYSICALLY absent Jesus (literally).

No, that is not the case. There is no need for me to invent arguments; there are plenty that I see here plain as day begging my ministering to. In fact there are tTOO MANY of them for me to handle. If you could clearly document the back-peddling you sense, maybe I can explain it quickly and not derail anything.

ONLY temporarily. He could be back tomorrow.

That same human, the Christ, Jesus became absent some years later in Acts chapter 1

No again. What's the problem? The absent Christ is the physical man. Remember Acts chapter 1 ? You have the SPIRIT of Christ in you, not the physical man! That is equivalent to saying you have the the gift, pneuma hagion in you. So, the rest of your summary is in the mud and not worth commenting on.

So, he advocates for you on Monday before God. Then you get out of fellowship on Tuesday, but thankfully remember 1 John 1:9 But God forgets all about the advocating Jesus did on Monday, so Jesus has to put on his white powdered wig and enter the courtroom again to fill God in on how he paid for Tuesday's sin also. Did I get that right?

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Matt 1:18-20 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. */*/*/*/* The RHST supplied usage for all 3 of those bold fonts is 1a, "meaning God." Waysider I am willing to give you partial credit for your answer, which was "God." But the question originated in T-Bone's claim that VPW did not understand the Holy Spirit. He did understand; it is here that I sense a lack. I never, ever heard anyone, including VPW, use this simple way to unravel the trinity. The Father is the Holy Spirit; different titles for the same True God. So, I am copyrighting it, and you all have to cite me if you use it.